How To Improve Employee Well Being (feat. Gaurav Bhatnagar)

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Hi, I'm Susan Drumm. And welcome to the Enlightened Executive where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help you get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness. Today we're focusing on employee well being. And with me today, I'm happy to introduce my guest, Gaurav Bhatnagar. Gavin Gar is the founder of Co Creation Partners and co author of the upcoming book Unfear Transform youm Organization to Create Breakthrough Performance and Employee well Being. His book is the synthesis of learnings from the last two decades. Working with organizations to Deliver performance and culture Transformations that Put People first in youn Organization, Emphasizing both well being and job performance, proving that you can achieve both. Garv's journey in this Space started in 2003 with work that he did at McKinsey in South Africa. After many failed attempts, he and his colleagues were able to change both performance and employee engagement to make the Johannesburg office one of the best performing offices across the McKinsey system. So welcome, Gaurav.

Wow, Susan, thank you. You make me sound like a superstar.

You are a superstar. That's what I believe.

Thank you so much for having me on your show.

Yes, well, employee well being is the topic today in leadership development. So I'm really excited to be discussing this topic and I'm really excited to be talking about your book and the role that fear plays in employee well being. What's the link here between fear and employee well being from your perspective?

Sure. I think if you go underneath the lack of well being in organizations, a lot of it is linked to fear. And it's fundamentally uncertainty that today's corporate workplace brings in it. Whether it's the uncertainty of a boss, the uncertainty of business performance, the uncertainty of the political environment we live in.

Or when I'm going back to work.

Yeah, exactly. Absolutely Right. Right. And what does Covid mean? You know, I was at a dinner last Friday and the person who I was with called me yesterday and said, I've tested positive and I had to run for a COVID test. You know, so fundamentally, it's that uncertainty that leads to people feeling fearful. And that fear often negatively impacts employee well being. In fact, this is really interesting statistic. You'd be surprised. But they did this research in the UK where they brought 100 people into a room and they said to half of them, they said, there's 100% certainty of you getting an electric shock. And to the other half they said, you only have a 50% certainty. Guess which group was more stressed out in the two groups. It was the group that had only 50% chance of getting a shock. Because uncertainty leads to people feeling stressed. And that's at the core of things. And this book that we have written is all about how do you reframe your relationship to fear so that not only can you drive your wellbeing while driving well being, you can also drive performance. Yes, that's the core.

Yeah. Because I mean, obviously fear is a normal emotion and with the level of uncertainty that we're facing and it's no surprise that people are feeling greater fear. The information in fear is that I'm being threatened. And when we feel that, usually the gift in that is to put ourselves into safety. Right. Because if we take action to keep ourselves and others safe. That's the idea. But where is it going awry here?

You know, here's the interesting thing. When you talk about safety, it's the same thing as your comfort zone. So let me ask you a question, Susan. How does it feel to be in your comfort zone?

Well, it feels safe, but it can also feel boring.

Yeah. Right. So most people will talk about the positive parts of being in the comfort zone, Right. They won't talk about being boring. But if you probe long enough, there's downsides of being in your comfort zone. What happens if I come along and start pushing you out of your comfort zone?

I think it's a balance, right. Like a little bit of comfort zone. But maybe in the majority, in a performance zone, right, where you're feeling some level of fear, there's some level of risk involved and it has you be more engaged. So it is the balance between the two. Right. I'm pushed too much in a performance zone or almost into a danger zone. That's where I'm going to feel depleted over time. And that's where my employee wellbeing is going to go down.

Beautiful. So you've that space we call the terror zone, right? That space where you freak out, but between your comfort zone and what you call the performance zone, or we call the learning zone fear. And any significant learning, not small learning, but significant learning, fundamentally needs you to go through fear. And so if you flip it around, fear is not something to be resisted. Fear is something that gives you cues of where your learning edge is and where do you need to grow. And when you engage with fear that way, suddenly it actually helps you spark well being. Maybe not immediate short term, but actually in the medium to long term, it actually creates well being. Because you have now explored as a Human being, where expansion is and with many, many, many people is that we as human beings were not meant to be vegetables. We as human beings were meant to grow and explore. And that's what human nature is all about.

So what is your suggestion for turning fear into employee well being?

Okay, so in order to do that, let's ask you a question just for the fun of it. Yeah, tell me, do you have any fears especially related to work?

Well, two fears that are in my head. One is personal. One is work related. The personal is around the health of my aging parents who are in their mid-80s, and my dad getting frailer and frailer. The other is more at the space of unknown. For me, I'm launching a book and in the process of figuring out publishers and what direction to go in. And I think it's the unknown because there's quite a high cost involved in marketing and if I'm doing a hybrid publisher, what that looks like and the cost of producing it and editing and all those pieces. I'm curious to know the link between fear and anxiety, because for me, I would say I just have anxiety about it. I would think a lot of leaders say that they would be like, I don't have fear. Well, yeah, I have anxiety. I'd be curious to hear your link between how people describe fear versus anxiety and even admitting that they have fearful thoughts.

Yeah. Well, by the way, many leaders think that admitting fear or anxiety is. Is admitting to being weak. And so many leaders do not want to show vulnerability and they want to pretend that there is no fear. But to your question of fear and anxiety, I think pretty much the same. You can call tomato, tomato. Right. But it's the same thing. But let's play with in terms of your fear because it's really interesting. So, sure, you have an upcoming book launch and you're not certain how it's going to go. Right. And there's investment to be made and all of that stuff. What's really interesting is the story that you create around it. Right. So you gave me a pretty long statement about what could go wrong. And that is where the trick lies, the unlocking lies. So one of the greatest superpowers that we as human beings have is the power of language and the power of imagination. Mm.

Right. Right.

Now, when I ask people, what is the importance of language, most people, I don't know what your answer would be. I would cure. Be curious. But most people would say that language is to describe the way things are. I would like to contend that language is a way of Creating the future. So we create the future through our language. And language is nothing but story. So if you have a fear around the book launch, what is the story you're telling yourself and what is a different story you could tell yourself? What is the possibility in this fear?

Absolutely. Well, the gift in the fear, going back to my piece is around, doing a lot of due diligence around what is the best path to take here and what will best suit my goals in launching the book. So it has me extra focus on this and not leave it to chance, but talk to others, do that type of research, talk to different publishers, different types of publishers, but absolutely believe that what you focus on expands. So how can I look at as well talking about the real mission behind the book and the difference that I want to make in the world with the book. And so putting my attention there is absolutely going to lessen the fear of like, hey, this is really important information to get out there. So yes, there's logistics and there's all these pieces, but at the end of the day, if it's a meaningful mission, I have to believe that the right forces are going to come together to make that happen.

Yeah, and this is the wonderful part, right? So two different stories you told in this. And one of the big things we work with people on is what is the language in the story they're using. Because the language in the story they use creates the future. So the language in the story is what creates either well being or lack of it. And so that's where the focus needs to be rather than on the emotion. Because the emotion is to be human is to have fear. It's all around the language and the imagination you put around it. Right. But one step before that, which is really important, which we strongly believe in, is helping people connect with their potential. So, you know, one of the chapter titles we have for chapter five, it says the angel in the Stone. I'm sure you've heard this, but Michelangelo, when he carved David, said, I saw an angel in the marble and I said to carve it free. And the idea is really powerful because it says that there's already an angel in the marble. It's not like you're adding things in. Your potential is already within you. And for people to feel well being, they need to remember how much what incredible potential they have as human beings and that place. Create the story.

Create the story. And also I think it's helpful to remember where you've been faced with adversity in the past and how you overcame it. Because you actually do have a muscle memory there. But we tend to downplay or forget or. Yeah, but this is different, right? There's all these reasons behind that. But I think if you do connect, you reminding yourself of your greatness and, and your ability to withstand and be resilient.

And you know, as you probably know this, a lot of our decisions are made from our emotional brain, which is two parts to it. The pain complex and the pleasure complex. And the pain complex is like Velcro. It sticks to us. And the pleasure complex is like Teflon. You get a high and then you forget it. So it is the memory. It is reminding yourself of those experiences so you can move forward. So that's on an individual level. But the same principles then can be applied at a team and an organization level. And you can create the conditions for teams to be much more in a well being state and from that place of well being, driving performance and organizations doing the same thing. In fact, at a team level, we call it being a jazz ensemble versus a group of people just sitting around and blaming each other kind of.

Yes, yes. How can we as leaders help promote greater well being within our team members?

So what I would say is you cannot deny uncertainty. So leaders who try and deny uncertainty are already sabotaging themselves. You cannot do that. In fact, let me give you a beautiful mythological tale from India, which is really interesting. And it's the story of Shiva. I don't know if you ever heard of Shiva, but he's the God with a blue throat. And, you know, so what happens is, the story goes that, you know, all the creatures on the earth are in trouble. The netherworld, the humans, the gods, they're all having big troubles. Nothing is working. So they go to Shiva and say, shiva, Shiva, please help us. We need saving. And so, like any leader in an organization, he says, I have the perfect transformational project for you. And he says, go and churn the ocean of milk. And when you churn the ocean of milk, you will get lots of positive outcomes from it. So the whole organization goes and starts doing it. And as the ocean of milk is churned, all kinds of good things come out. But also poison starts to come out, right? Because any endeavor has both positive and unintended consequences to it. And to deny that would be impossible. And so they all go to Shiva and say, people are dying. What are you doing? And he says, bring the poison to me. And he drinks the poison, but he holds it in his throat and his throat turns blue. And the big message is that the Job of a leader is to drink the poison without getting poisoned and to not let the system get poisoned. The job of the leader is to create the conditions where people are accepting the unintended outcomes of action and yet not letting them get poisoned by it. By making sure that you are the stopgap in between those situations that is able to hold things in a very, very calm space. In fact, you know this. But the ultimate space from which a leader is effective is that calm, reflective place where nothing phases the leader. And when you do that, then magic happens.

Right. And I don't think leaders understand the level of anxiety that gets transmitted when they're anxious. They think they're holding it all in, but it's coming through in their actions and their deeds and how they're going about leading others. So as we talk about the mission of this channel, which is around creating your personal evolution, because you've got to be able to handle the fear and anxiety coming at you in the workplace or you're going to magnify that down to your team.

Absolutely. When I was at McKinsey, I know you used to be at BCG, so relate to this. I completely bought into that maximum of being the insecure overachiever. Right. And it was all about the more insecure you felt, the more you achieve. And 20 years ago, I was at the brink of a complete burnout. I was probably about to get divorced from my wife and I was driving myself and everyone around me crazy. But I was doing really well, really.

Well in terms of performance evaluation.

And you talked about Johannesburg. What happened was I went into a workshop kicking and screaming because I thought this is all woohoo bs. And you know, I was in this workshop and I experienced. We went through a meditation practice and something so profound happened to me in terms of my own internal vibration that I realized that there was so much about life that I did not understand. And that is what got me onto this path of understanding that there's a whole different way of being that then allows you to show up and deliver in a very different kind of way. So a lot of my work is about what I have discovered about what I am and what I'm not, and then exploring it with people like you. Yes.

And so what would you say to the leader that needs to swallow the poison, so to speak? How did they do that without poisoning themselves?

So the poison pill for the modern leader which they have to swallow is slowing down. Slowing down not because you have to slow the performance down, but slowing down because when you slow down you get perspective. And for you to slow down, you actually need to go inside rather than stay on the outside and constantly look outside. So a lot of what we talk about in the early parts of the book is how does a leader slow down inside? Because the world is not speeding up. It's your perspective that is sped up, and you need to slow it down so you can see a new perspective. And there's meditative practices related to that. But there's just a simple practice of being able to check the hijack that goes on and to be able to pause in a moment where the easy thing would be to react.

Yeah. I even think about the predators on the savannah and, you know, when I was in Africa and watching the hunters wait and watch and watch and write for the right time to jump in. But I would say we as human beings are reactive and we're running from here to there, and we got to take care of this and that thing. And it's not actually. It's wasted energy that's also creating some of the burnout.

Yeah.

So this ability that you're talking about to pause and go within also creates the resilience to handle what's happening so that you're not scattering your energy and your forces running from here or there, but being very directive about where you're going to take your laser strike.

Yeah. And recognizing that the story that has made us run from here to there and everywhere is in our control. We are not only the actors in our story, we are actually the directors of our story. And when we realize that, then we realize that the stories that we've been conditioned by are not fixed. And we can evolve them. And when we evolve them, performance and well being cannot be in contradiction. It comes together because it connects you to purpose. It allows you to be present in the moment. And from that place, it allows you to contribute in a way that you could never imagine before.

Yeah. I'm going to talk a little bit about some of the things that leaders have said to me recently that they know that their employees might be not feeling as well as they could. Loneliness, anxiety, all of those burnout. Yet when they're asking about it, they're getting it. It's fine. I'm good. But they can sense the energy that it's not. What would be your suggestion for how leaders should best promote employee wellbeing? With even the fear of admitting that there's a problem, obviously, between boss and employee?

Yeah. So my invitation to most leaders is if you want someone else to share with you what's going on for them. You need to learn to be vulnerable yourself and you need to share what's going on with you first. So one of the things we talk about is that the energy of an organization needs to tip itself over. And a leader by himself or herself carries. A senior leader carries about 10% of the energy of the organization. So when you ask, you're not being the way you want other people to be. So how can you, when you're doing, show the beingness of yourself and the vulnerability of yourself? Because that is what draws people in. Openness is not a one way street. If you want other people to be open to you, you need to be open to them. One of the big things leaders need to learn is you can't just sit on a pedestal and talk about how brilliant you are and expect other people to open up to you.

So what's the right balance to do that? Because on the one hand, you could talk about, yeah, I'm feeling anxious about xyz. And then again, then you're poisoning your team by making them anx my boat. You're anxious with. But I'm being open.

Right. Beautiful. Yeah. So here's the simple thing. Vulnerability can be done from a place of weakness, and it can be done from a place of strength. Right. And for leaders, when they do vulnerability, well, they do it from a place of strength. What does that mean? It means sharing stories from your life where you have experienced stuff and you have worked through it. The rawness is in having experienced something and the strength is in showing that you work through it and what you learned from it and talking about, hey, it's a continuous learning journey. Right. So when I go into a workshop with my clients, I talk to them about my struggles as an insecure overachiever at McKinsey and talk about what I have done. Vulnerability creates a space for other people to step in and say, yeah, yes. Permission to speak.

So you can speak about the past and what you've overcome when you've been in this place. I think you can also be authentic and speak about the present, but also maybe a current situation you're dealing with, but what you're finding helpful in how you're approaching that.

Yeah. And revealing the story that you're currently going through and the struggles with that story and what you considering doing with it.

Yes. Yeah, right, exactly. Garv, thank you so much. Where can people learn more about your work and your book?

Beautiful. So there's, there's two places you can go. One is called the unfair book Dot com. And there you can get information about the book. There's a blog you can write to us as you, as you explore the book. I'm sure it'll challenge you. That's the whole point. Write to us. We'll immediately come back to you. And if you want to understand more of the consulting and the workshop kind of work we do, you can go to co creationpartners.com which is our consulting website, and you can get a whole lot of case studies and how we've been able to link performance and revenue.

Excellent. Thank you.

Such a pleasure, Susan.

And if you like this episode, you're not going to want to miss my interview with Cameron Herold, who tells us why investing in your leadership is imperative to grow your bottom line. Let's lead the way. Hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I'd like to point you to the next important step. Hit the subscribe button to get notified when we release new content. I'll see you on the next episode of the Enlightened.

Sam.