Leading with Purpose Featuring Tim Lupinacci

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Hi, I'm Susan Drummond. Welcome to the Enlightened Executive, where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help you get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness. Are you curious about your own development path to enlightened leadership? Take our free 5 minute quiz@susandrum.com to discover your superpower and the roadblocks that could get in the way of effective leadership. We've got another enlightened leader as a guest on our show to hear about his path to leadership and lessons along the way. And I am excited to introduce Tim Lubinacci. Tim is the chairman and CEO at Baker Donaldson, one of the top 100 US law firms, where he leads over 1300 people in 23 offices across the southeastern United States. Tim spent 28 years of his legal practice focused on helping financial institutions solve complex problems, including restructuring and bankruptcy. And a lifelong leadership student, Tim recently launched a nonprofit called Everybody Leads, focused on empowering individuals in underserved communities with basic leadership skills, giving them the confidence to lead themselves better, lead others and lead in the community. And also, Tim is publishing a book later this year called Everybody Leads. So welcome, Tim.

Susan, I'm so thrilled to be here. As I've mentioned, I've gained so much value and insight from you and everybody your podcast. So thank you. I'm honored to be here.

Well, we're excited to have you and I want to hear a bit more about your journey. Maybe we'll just start out with what helped you the most in your journey to becoming a more conscious leader.

Yeah, Susan, that's a great question. And I really, I think a lot of it goes back to I had a really difficult boss when I was early in my legal career. And what helped me the most was he spoke leadership into me. I really didn't view myself as a leader. I didn't know any lawyers. I didn't. I went to law school kind of on a. I didn't know what to do with my life after college. I was a mass communication major, so I should be going to radio and television. But I went to law school and I was working at a firm and it was very transactional for me. I'd do a project, turn it in, and then move to the next project. And I made a big mistake that I thought, well, somebody else should have caught that issue, that problem. And the boss lit into me as he was one to do, although it was on a conference call with about 12 lawyers, other lawyers from around the country, and he said, this idiot's Going to stay here all night to get this right, which is not great leadership, but. And I was just worried I was going to keep my job. And so I did work. We got it fixed, we got it sent out, and I had drawn the short straw to drive the boss up that he thought about it. I apologize. I shouldn't have yelled in front of you, in front of other people, but I just have such high expectations of you because I see you really have strong leadership opportunity. And I just didn't remember anyone speaking into me that I could be a leader. I didn't have a title. I didn't have a big corner office. And so that literally set me on this journey of, well, if I'm going to be a leader, I got to get better, I got to figure this out, figure out what leadership means to me. And so that really set me on this journey of trying to read and learn and grow and listen to others. And it was not as easy. Back in the early 90s, you didn't have podcasts that you could listen to. The enlightened leader. You know, it was like books on tape, you know, but. Yes, but. But I did it, and that really helped. That started my journey, and it's been a lifelong learning process for me.

Amazing. Well, tell us then, that lifelong journey, what have been some of the most important lessons that you've learned along the way?

Yeah, I mean, one thing is the first and foremost was like, I don't know all the answers, and I'm going to make mistakes. I think early on, I think we think we have to be fallible or infallible.

Yes.

And just being open to being say, I need to learn from others. I want to be inquisitive and curious. And so that's one thing that really informed a lot of my approach, was what can I learn from others? When I first had my first team, I was leading, which was literally just two other people and me. But I got us together once a week, and I brought in other leaders from the firm I was at to ask them about leadership and ask them how they built their teams so we could learn from it. So it was like being humble, I think, to, I don't know it all. I've got to learn from you. So I think that's certainly being curious has been something really important. And then I think seeking feedback, which, as a leader, that can be hard. Right. Because it's. If you're being honest and you're open to feedback, you're going to get criticism. But the way to get better is to be open to that and not that you have to every criticism doesn't mean I'm going to make a change and do that. But I need to be open to hearing it. And maybe I have some blind spots and I've missed some things. Then again, it's not easy. And, you know, I've got an ego, you know, internal. Like, I was like, oh, gosh, I thought, I want everyone to like me. But I also need to lead effectively, so I need to get better at that. So I think those are a couple things that have been very important in my journey along the way.

Yeah. Well, I want to speak first to curiosity, and it's such an incredibly valuable leadership skill that I don't think a lot of leaders lean into enough. And what I mean by that, you know, if you really think about it, we think as leaders, we have to have. We're coming for good judgment. And that is true. Right. But the opposite of judgment is curiosity. And so if we continually just lead into judgment, judging, judging this, judging that, we never get from the state of, what if there's something here? I don't know, what if there's something here to learn? And if you can engage in your conversations like that, even though you might be triggered by the person or upset about what they did, there's something here for me to learn. And if you're coming with that mindset of curiosity while still having the judgment of, you know, maybe how things didn't go the way they needed to go, from your experience, it's almost what they call polarity. Right. Two ends, spectrum. How do you hold both? And I think the best leaders are able to both have a sense of judgment as well as come with curiosity. What do you think about that?

No, I totally agree. And because. And you hit the nail on the head when you talked about. Sometimes we have those colleagues that really kind of maybe get under our skin, and they always maybe lead from a point of criticism or whatever. And like their phone, your phone pops up and it's a call from them and you don't want to answer it. Right. Um, but if you really can spend the time when I. I'll say this for me, if I can spend the time getting to understand that person more by asking questions, understanding their journey, because it's going to be different than mine, that. That helps me maybe flip the script. I still may not want to do what they suggest they can do, but if I've built the relationship with them, then maybe I can explain why we're not taking this initiative or why we're not doing that, but I think it is something you have to work at. Susan, you're exactly right. I mean, I was just thinking about a current example. We. I feel like we spent a lot of time as a firm being very focused and organized around caring and the mental health and wellness of our colleagues, particularly during the COVID During the pandemic. Post pandemic. And we brought in licensed psychologists and we were doing. Certainly we already have, you know, EAP program and all of that. I felt like we were doing a lot. And then I had a couple board members come and say, well, I think we can do more. And my first reaction was like, wow, we're doing so much. But then when I listened to them, I did realize that we were doing a lot of stuff, but it wasn't under a single umbrella. And so some people were having a hard time accessing it. So my initial reaction was going to, like, judgment, like, oh, they're judging us and we're doing a great job. But then I paused and listened and then like, yeah, they're really right. We need to do a better job of destigmatizing and talking about it and building an umbrella. We use Baker, since our firm's name, Baker. So now it's Baker. Well, which encounters. Encapsulates all the stuff. So that's just an example where I could have said, we're doing fine, we're doing enough. And yeah, and let's move on. So one of the. I've got kind of different mantras. I try to help get through each, you know, to start off each day. And one of them includes this idea of being content with second place. And the idea being that I'm not going to know it all. I have the title that would say, you know, whatever. But, yeah, I want to know and learn from everyone else and recognize that my ideas may not be the best ideas and often aren't the best ideas. And so I think that's just something we all have to work on.

Yeah. Well, what a powerful mindset to come from as the CEO of this large firm. Right. That you're not probably as close to some of the challenges that your people are facing. So to have this mindset that you should have the answers is actually. No. Your job is actually to empower others to find the answers.

That's right. Yeah, that's exactly. And particularly the legal profession, because we're paid to have.

Yes.

To know the law, you know, and of course. And everything. And so there is this built in kind of thing of Me being trained as a lawyer, that I've got to know the answer and know where to get it quickly. And I think it's different in the leadership role. I think you really do have to be open to listening and learning.

Yeah. What type of feedback? So talking about feedback, what type of feedback have you gotten about your leadership? What do you think makes you unique as a CEO?

That's. Well, first of all, I think that's. That's. It's a great question. And when you added unique, I mean, I think some of it is authenticity. Like, yeah, I'm a big Disney fan. Our family loves Disney. I know that's everyone. Not everyone's cup of tea. And so, you know, I'm just open about that. I'm open about when my daughter was a teenager, you know, we were having some struggles, and I started taking her to concerts together, and we would talk about, like, experiences of going to Coachella or whatever together. And I think. And so now what people want to know about, like, hey, how's your daughter doing? She got married this year. And, oh, how, you know, do you like the guy? And all that stuff? I think just being our authentic self helps others feel comfortable being who they are. So I think that's some of it, and some of it is really just, you know, how can I help you? What are some things? We do a monthly video conference with people who've joined the firm in the past month at whatever level. And one thing I tell them every month is you're coming from different company. It may not even be in the legal profession, but if you see something that we can do better, I want to know about it, because you're coming with a fresh set of eyes, and we may be doing it for years and think that it's the best thing, but, like, we've missed something. So that's the kind of thing I try to just make it very inclusive. And also the first town hall I had after I was named CEO, I talked about the fact that we really needed everybody in the firm to think of themselves as leaders, as impacting and influencing others around them, whether they're dealing with external clients or internal clients. And. And really trying to empower that because that's how we're going to succeed and thrive. So those are some things I think that I try to live out.

Yes, yes. So how have you institute. What kind of structures or processes have you instituted to gather some of that feedback in the organization so that you are leading from a place of greater wisdom about what your are experiencing?

Yeah, well, because we're spread out like you mentioned, in 23 offices. Being on the road a lot is important. And when I was, I had a six months transition into CEO and the firm had really plateaued and on a lot of areas the several years before I became CEO. So in that six month transition, I went on a listening tour and I sat in conference rooms with different groups within the office that I was at and just, you know, what can, how, what can we get better at? How can we improve? How can we, what can we make your life, you know, in your day to day work life better? And I would come back with, you know, legal pad of notes and then it was really just trying to make progress on it because you, not only do you have to listen, you have to act now. Not on everything. Right. But on the things that make sense and there's a lot of great ideas. So that was, I started out doing that, so that was definitely day one. And we've been able to, you know, have some really good success and some growth and made progress on stuff. And so when I go to offices, I don't get quite as much of that feedback when I ask for it, but we try to make sure. Like a couple weeks ago we did an Ask Tim Anything program. Yeah, people can just come on and ask whatever they want. And a lot of times it's stuff, you know, kind of, you know, what's your favorite concert from this year? Or whatever. But then, but then a lot of it is about stuff and it can go any different direction of things we can get better at. So just being intentional about doing that. And I'm a big fan of, you know, Churchill had this thing called dinner table diplomacy where he liked to get all these leaders around a dinner table and just get to know each other. And of course with him it involved, I think brandy and cigars, which I'm not into either one of those, but. But I like to break bread and share things with people, you know, and I think that gives them some opportunity to give insight. So I try to do that too.

Yes. Yes. What do you think has been the biggest leadership challenge you've had to overcome?

Great question. I mean, I think it's interesting because we had had in, while I was in transition, we had our worst fiscal year end we'd had in a long time. And so, and I wasn't even in the seat yet, so some of it was just getting in the seat, you know, casting, you know, trying to get us turned around, get moving and. And then after a few months we were still heading towards maybe we're gonna have another down year. So that was hard to say. We knew we had to be more like a best run business. That was one of the first things I knew because a lot of times law firms think of themselves as partnership and we just needed to be like our clients. Right. So some of those hard accountability type discussions, expectations, that was hard. But we got the, we got the flywheel. Started going the right direction the Latter Half of 2019 and then we get into 2020 and Covid hit.

Yeah.

So I think that was, that was tough obviously for everybody as well. And just because of the unknown.

Yes.

And, but, but that really did help cement our leadership team coming together and going harkening back a little bit to Disney. We at the time, I think Frozen 2 had come out that movie and there was a song and they're about taking the next right step. Like if you don't know what's, what's coming down the pipe, take the next right step. So our COO and I, that became our mantra. We don't know what's going to happen next month and next week, maybe even tomorrow, but we can take the next right step. So I think that was, that's something that still guides us. We talked about that. I was on a call with her earlier today and we said, well, the next right step in this one area is to do this. And so I love that. Yeah. So some things that.

That's great.

Interestingly, the, the song lyrics, the lyricist said that came out of somebody who was really struggling with mental health and depression issues. And I guess a lot of the idea like you wake up, what's the next right step? We'll take that step out of bed and maybe the next right step is to get a cup of coffee when you don't feel like facing the world. So.

Right, right.

Anyway, I think it's just, that's something that's really helped us out that I learned through that difficult time.

Oh, that's excellent. And so today, what do you think your biggest leadership challenge is?

That's a really good question. You know, I think some people talk about the generational divide. I know you had a really great guest recently talking about that. I tend to be more on the optimistic side that I think, you know, we're going to there, we're going to get there on that. I mean we just have to be intentional about working on it. I think the biggest thing that keeps me up at night is we've tried to grow, you know, a smart growth, not just to Grow for growth sake. And I think, I know every company says this, but we really try to walk the walk about the culture of who we are and respectful. The. The Baker of Baker Donaldson is Senator Howard Baker, who had this famous saying about the other person may be right. He used to cross over the aisle in politics and make things happen like in the middle, you know, to get to a consensus, which people sometimes still refer to him, and saying we wish we had, you know, states, people like him. But as we scale and as we grow, I worry about can we keep the culture through that growth and scaling. As we get now up to 23 offices, it's harder to get around every office every year.

So yeah, right.

Those are the challenges I'm trying to figure out. And so we, you know, then maybe my COO and I divide up the offices and I've asked some board members to go touch offices if I can't get there. So things like that. But that's kind of the things I struggle with right now.

Yeah, that. I mean, when you get to a certain size, then how do you still have the connectivity that you need in order to lead? So I imagine that there must have been a shift in leadership when you came on board and a shift in culture as well. How is the culture benefited from your leadership?

Yeah, it's a great question. My predecessor, who had done a great job had been in the role 20 years. So for a lot of folks it was, it was the first time that, you know, the, that they'd had a change. And, and then when you, when you think about what I talked about earlier about shifting to become more like a best run business, people automatically think, oh well, that just means, you know, corporate mumbo jumbo and we're just going to cut people willy nilly or whatever, things like that. Which that's not what it was at all. But I think one of the things that I passionately believe in is that if we can help connect every individual's day to day, you know, job experience here to a greater purpose. Like, yeah, some of our clients are changing the world and the work we do may be hard and difficult and long hours. We're helping them change the world. You know, our work as a firm, we are very involved in community by all that we're doing, it helps us then connect to purpose. And so we really, I really try hard to make sure that we build a situation where everyone can see a pathway if they want to grow and want to get better and have more purpose in what they're doing now that's words on a paper. And that's vision, that's ideas. But we've really worked hard to build some training and skill building and really to make that a reality. And it's still a work in process. We're still trying to learn. Law firms are very flat organizations. So when we talk about pathways, there's some, some limitations there. But we've really tried to expand our mind to figure out how we can do that. So that's some of the things that I think, hopefully people would say that under my leadership, we've really focused on trying to help them. Because when, when you do that, when people are placed, plugged into the purpose, you know, like Daniel Pink's great drive, I mean, you're helping them do it through mastery and you're showing them purpose, then it's all gonna, you're gonna succeed. Right. So we're trying.

Absolutely. And that's the core tenet of creative leadership. It's, it's leading from a sense of purpose and a mission that's beyond yourself. Because if you don't have that mission beyond yourself, you end up getting more committed to ego based things like. Or being included or looking good. Right. And that's not inspiring leadership. You know, the leader who always has to be the smartest person in the room, that's sort of tiring leadership. After a while, you know, we know why you're doing it. Oh, here he goes again with like, let me prove you wrong. And, and, and, and the problem is what they're more committed to is either looking good or being right, being in control and, and not committed to what is really outside myself, that mission that really matters. Because then you're not leaving from that place. That conversation isn't even going on in your head. And so I love the work that you're doing there on helping people find mission. Because that's what I've seen. In the absence of that, they go back to ego and self image.

Right, right. Or, or they leave. Right. Or yeah, this place isn't for me, but yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Or they leave and try to find that. So.

Right.

That's just excellent work. And it really is a core foundation of what true enlightened leadership does. It's looking for what is the core mission of how we support and help others. And so out of that, speaking of that, you started a nonprofit. Tell us a little bit about your work there and what the mission is of that nonprofit.

Yeah, it's something, it's sort of my passion project on the side. What you know, from, apart from my day job. But I, I had, I have a coach who, I told him we launched a strategic vision here at the firm. I've been in the role five years as CEO. I'll probably, you know, all things going well, do another five. But then what do I want to do next? And I thought, well, maybe I could take some of the lessons I've learned in leadership and helping the non profit sector do something like that. Still just trying to figure it out, you know, because he asked me what's 10 plus 5 years look like? So I started dreaming and thinking about that and, and I said, well, maybe I told him about this nonprofit idea and he said, well, why don't you start one and then you can lead there instead of waiting for five years and doing something right. And so because of my passion on leadership and also because of some of the community organizations we work with at Baker Donaldson that we're investing in trying to help along that really in the space of trying to help eradicate homelessness. I was talking to a lot of those leaders and they're doing incredible work helping people get like life skills and like driver's license and bank accounts and get skilled to get some basic jobs, you know, on job training and then go get jobs. And when I was talking to him, I was this idea of leadership, like are you doing training in that? And like somebody has a job now, but are they getting coaching in conflict resolution or effective communication or team building? And they said that would be amazing. We just don't have the resources to do it. So that really was what led to this idea of a nonprofit called Everybody Leads of can I come alongside other non profits and help teach basic leadership skills for folks on that journey, whether it's out of homelessness or re entry into society from prison, or maybe it's youth that got off track and now they're getting their ged. And so I've been, it's been going on for about a year. I've been doing some training basic leadership skills with some already existing non profits doing great work. It's not about supplanting them, it's about supporting and helping them. So it's all like, what is, what's that thing? I don't really like the phrase, but what? The plane. Building the plane while I'm flying it.

Yes.

Yeah, I'm having some great fulfillment in meeting individuals through that process. But we'll see how, where it all goes.

Yes. You're teaching leadership development, you leadership development consultant like me, right? Well, for Nonprofits. Amazing. I love it. What have you learned so far in that process? What's the greatest need for leaders who are leading in that space?

Yeah, it's interesting. I think one thing that's pretty clear is talking to individuals who may have had some, you know, challenges in their past. It's the confident that they can step up. Right. And. And even think of themselves as a leader. So I'm trying to take, you know, my mentor Bob's, you know, speaking leadership into me, speaking that into others. Younger folks just have that confidence and not. Not egotistic, you know, type thing, but just confidence that you can do this if you learn and get better. That's one. I know one thing that tends to come up a lot when I'm going through it is it really seems to resonate with conflict resolution. And I'm not sure I've got all the, you know, every situation is going to be unique and different, but just some basic skills on how to work through conflict and maybe even.

Yeah.

Not to just get into the heat of the moment. Right. And so that seems to be something that resonates. Some tips and tricks on how to more effectively communicate seems to resonate with folks. So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's great. That's great. And so you have a book coming out. What are. What are some of the most important lessons that are coming out of that book?

Yeah. So it really is built out of, you know, this whole same idea we've been talking about. Everybody leads. So we can then have to get better as a leader ourselves to then get better, to help lead others. And I really just take stories from my own journey, other stories of leadership that have worked or worked for me. Doesn't mean it's going to work for you. You got to figure out each situation and whether that works for you. But it really builds off the same curriculum from the. From the nonprofit. It really started as the manual, and then I started thinking about the stories of my own journey. So it was just a. It's kind of, again, a labor of love of putting it together. And, you know, I'm excited about it. So.

Yeah, great. I know it's quite a journey launching a book.

I know a lot of. A lot of setbacks and thinking you get some progress and that you don't, but I'm excited to get it out into the world later this year.

Yeah, great, great. So what wisdom can you share with others going through tough times or working on trying to find their path to leadership?

Wow. What a great question, Susan. So, no, I would Say one thing that is valuable just even as a daily practice for me, but I think it's the same. It's a starting point for even answering that question is just to spend some time thinking and dreaming, dreaming big. I've got a friend who wrote a book, Bob Golfer, a book called Dream Big. And it's all about just stepping back and what are those things? Maybe ambitions I had earlier in life that I put on the side or I thought some obstacle came up and I didn't get to it. But I have the, you know, daily practice of really trying to spend some downtime of reading and thinking and, you know, about the day and about what we're doing. But I think for a leader to really step back and say, what are some things I really want to accomplish, what impact and influence can I have greater impact and greater influence on if I spend some time and really analyze what I'm doing, what I'm spending my time on? So those are some things that I think have been helpful. For me, it really was what started the whole, you know, 10 plus five years. Because I said, well, I really don't. I mean, I think it's important to have, you know, transition of leadership after. So I don't want to stay in this role forever. Yeah, I want to already be thinking about that and preparing some succession stuff on that. But then what's next? Right. I could go back and practice law full time, but I really have now gotten where I love leadership so much. I really started to start thinking and I have a passion about leadership. I love to get back in the community and work. You know, I've really been, you know, in. It's been part of who I am. And so like marrying it all together. It was really just some time thinking and pondering out and brainstorming. So I guess that would be some advice that helped me.

Yes, yes. I love that. So what is one thing that you think a leader could do tomorrow that would improve their leadership effectiveness? A tip mindset, whatever it may be.

Yeah. I mean, so many ways I could go for that. I'll say this. One of the things I remind myself of each day, and maybe there's something here. It's maybe not one, but it's like being a leader. And again, I think everyone's a leader. It takes courage. And so I have an acronym around courage that I try to remind myself each day. And so I think this is something maybe think about, you know, the C is curiosity. The A is out front. I mean, you need to be out front and Leading unshaking is a U unshakable, you know, like you're going to have setbacks. And so then the R is resilience. So how do I bounce back and show up like that? The A I use as adaptable. I want to be, you know, flexible, not stuck in my own ways and my own views. What made me think of this, which you said, mindset. The G is a growth mindset really, how can we get better? How can we achieve stuff? And then E, which may be the answer to the question, is just being encourager to others. I mean, it boomerangs back on me when I can go and really affirm somebody about what they're doing, a great job. I'm in the process right now of trying to write a note to personal Note to all 250 of our shareholders. It's taken me time, but just to thank them and be very specific about it. Not doing it straight, like five or six a day, but that just keeps me in the mindset of who I'm serving and all that. So anyway, that's more than one. But just be courageous in what you're doing as a leader because we need leaders, we need enlightened leaders. And so keep doing what you're doing.

And there's so much wisdom in there. I mean, even just the last one, like every single day. What, what's one person that you can encourage might be getting stuck. And I think with this level of volatility that we're experiencing and we'll continue to experience experience, it's going to be pretty easy for people to lose their way. So if leaders can just remember there is, there's got to be one person that can use your encouragement today, who is that person and reach out to them on your team. I think it's going to go a long way.

I totally agree. And it doesn't have to be like sometimes I think I sit there and go, oh well, it's going to be a 30 minute call. It can be a sentence, you know, I mean, just one quick thing that could make somebody really change their day and encourage them.

So yeah, absolutely.

And I'm speaking to myself. You know, what's that? Somebody told me, like when you point your finger, you got three pointing back at you. I'm talking to myself. Like, encourage others.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can people connect with you? Is that on LinkedIn or how will they learn about your book?

Yeah, well, LinkedIn for sure. And then the law firm is BakerDonaldson.com. and then I do have everybody leads with an s on the end.org so all those places are places that you can find me and I'd love to connect and continue the discussion.

Fantastic. Well, thank you for joining us today. And if you like this episode, you're not going to want to miss my interview with Dan Chu Parkoff, an innovation expert who swears by the power of small daily rituals to unleash your team's full potential. Let's all lead the way. Hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I'd like to point you to the next important step. Hit the subscribe button to get notified when we release new content. I'll see you on the next episode of the Enlightened Executive.