Mastering Feedback with Joan Hibdon

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Hi, I'm Susan Drum and welcome to the Enlightened Executive, where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help you get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness. Do you want to pinpoint how to grow quickly as a leader? Take our free quiz to reveal your path to enlightened leadership. Predict the blind spots that could hurt your success, and leverage your superpowers by going to susandrum.com quiz today we're talking about how to master giving feedback. And I'm delighted to introduce my good friend and colleague, Joan hibdon. After a 30 year career in human resources, coaching and professional development, Joan channeled her passion for educating teams by starting her own company where she helps clients create a workplace culture where people can thrive. She's a speaker and an author and recently published the book the Leader's Guide to Mastering how to Transform Relationships and Results. One conversation at a time. So welcome Joan. I'm so excited to talk to you about your book and your insights.

Thank you, Susan. I'm very glad to be here and really grateful to have this opportunity. So thank you.

So I want to talk to you all about the book. But before we get into that, what was the impetus to write the book? What caused you to say, this is the topic I'm going to double down on?

I never in my wildest dreams thought that feedback would be the book that I'd write. I thought I'd write a book about my mother in law and her adventures when she was young. The feedback came to me because I have had a couple of situations occur where feedback has come up. One was I received the most powerful feedback about 10 years ago from an executive that I worked with that gave the feedback at the time and place when I was ready to hear it. And it literally changed my life. It was feedback that caused me to pause and really take stock of who I was being. And it was when I first went out and hired my own executive coach. And the feedback really was that I had to stop being so effing nice. And the reason why that was important to that leader to say that to me at the time is that I was taking on so much that the organization was asking me and my, my team to do that. I was actually creating an impact that could not positively impact the organization. Like I just kept taking it on and call it my pleasing, fixing, accommodating mode of being. And I needed to hear the feedback because I was potentially putting the organization, my organization, at risk by burning them out, by taking on Too much. So that was kind of soul sucking and very revealing and time for me to get to work kind of feedback. And I wouldn't be where I am today if he had not had the courage and the compassion to say that to me. So that was one reason. The other reason is that a lot of the work that I do as a coach in working with leadership development is I get, it's not questions, I get statements from executives that begin with, I have this employee who's not doing this thing that they need to do and I don't know what to do with them. And, and so I'll ask the question, have you given them feedback? And the answer often is, well, no. And I'll say, why not? Well, what if they cry? What if they get mad? What if they quit? I don't know how to say it, you know, that kind of thing. And I thought, oh my gosh, it can be so easy, but we make it so hard in the business world. Once I started to notice that coming up pretty frequently, like the top number one question or statement, I thought, hmm, let's, let's get into this and let's provide some ideas and practices on how to do it better.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure people, it's really about not just giving feedback, but giving the feedback that's a course correction. The positive feedback of like, you did a great job. They seem to have no problem. Well, maybe they don't always remember to do it, but, but that type of feedback. But it's the feedback where you're worried about the reaction of the other person being a negative that has us hold back in pretense at times.

Absolutely.

Build up, build up, build up. And then you just have this outburst and the feedback's not delivered appropriately either. Right. Because it's been a pressure cooker. So exactly how do you help leaders avoid either one of those extremes?

So what I do is I spend time certainly listening to the leader and what it is that's, that's going on and what's at stake. And then I help them to examine where their, their clear fear is around giving the feedback. And then I flip it a little bit and I'll ask them, so what is the purpose of giving the person the feedback? I mean, really, what is it that you want them to, to get out of the feedback? And oftentimes it has to do with, like you said, course correction. It could be, I need for them to grow and develop. I need for them to slow down, whatever the thing is. And so we spend time really looking at making the purpose greater than the fear and then helping the leader find their own words and their own style. And oftentimes it comes from a place of the leader really does care about the employees. But it's being able to, I guess, acknowledge that and to say, I really care about you and I would be remiss if I didn't share this with you and then to step into it. Right. So what I do is I help the leaders figure out their own voice and their own style to do that, and so that the person on the other side of the table or sitting next to them in the chair can hear it for what it really is and not as a criticism, which is typically how people take feedback, especially when it is constructive, like, oh, I'm being criticized and I'm in trouble. But it's really around having the leader take 100% responsibility to who they're being and what it is that they want to say that helps the employee do better, be better, and deliver the best results.

Yes. Yes. So one of the things I love to do is have them see how much they're holding back, you know, in a way, like, let's just get it out on the table. Like, if you could say anything, what would you say? Like, no holds barred. And then they say that, and then I'll ask, and what stops you from saying that?

Exactly that. Yeah.

And. And, and then we can. At least we got it out there and we can pick apart and think about exactly what you said, the messaging, that will work for you, but sometimes just saying it aloud makes it less scary. And then you can find more suitable words if you need to, around giving that feedback. Once that's out in the open, it's something very freeing for people, I swear, you know? Well, it is.

And I think that to your point, and sometimes we don't even have to ask the leader to get it out on the table. Sometimes they, us and coaches, they'll just erupt. But the thing that they just said was exactly what they should say.

Yeah.

But it's pulling it back to a place where, again, it can be heard in a manner that. That is going to. Where something's actually going to be done with the feedback.

Yeah. So what traps do leaders fall into in giving feedback that's ineffective?

Well, one of the things that you said is that when they hold back, like when they overthink it and they overthink it and they overthink it and they tuck it away, I think it's suddenly like the words you used, it Becomes a pressure cooker. And when it becomes a pressure cooker and it just erupts, it is completely ineffective because it rains down on the other person like a lot of judgment, shame and things like that. So I think, you know, in those circumstances, that's one thing. I think the other thing that happens too with leaders is that they try to avoid it or you know, and, or they think, you know, this is going to change. They're optimistic and hopeful that this isn't going to be the thing forever and at some point that person will get it and doing that is not effective at all. The other thing that I think about that isn't effective with feedback and leaders is that sometimes leaders will give feedback but they won't follow it up with a inquiry later on to check in. So I gave you that feedback and they won't check in to be curious about. So what are you going to do with it? I think leaders sometimes are ineffective because they assume that just by giving the feedback that that person over there is going to do something with it. Yeah. And they wait and they wait and sometimes, sometimes the feedback is taken and something is done and sometimes it isn't.

Well, assumption that I know what to do with the feedback because sometimes I find this feedback isn't specific enough, it's too high level. And you know, the team members, like I get this feedback but I'm not sure exactly what needs to change at this point. And I thought I understood, but now that I'm back, you know, in the midst of stuff, I'm going to go back to my normal pattern. Right. I'm not, you know, and then supporting people on making changes and patterns, you know.

Right.

I need you to speak up more. Okay. Like in what circumstances, what, you know, in what ways, what constitutes speaking up more to you versus me.

Right.

And so that there's like a whole set of expectations that's behind just this example of speak up more that, that we're not talking about. And so I think asking the question that you're posing, which is what are you going to do with it? You can hear how this person thinks about implementing that feedback and where the gaps are in what they're brainstorming about what to do. Like that's why almost get on the same page with them, like same side of the table with them versus across with the feedback. But if you get on the same side and say let's look at this together, like let's bring some way, brainstorm some ways in which you could speak up more. What I'm what I think would be really beneficial for you.

Right. And I think that one of the elements, you know, is we're in this conversation sitting side by side with the feedback is that sometimes as a leader, we don't recognize that in the moment that person that's receiving the feedback, they need to process it. And so the brainstorming piece oftentimes comes after the fact. And that's why I think the check in from the leader later on is so helpful, is to go back and say we had this conversation and provided you with feedback. What did you process? So I think that there's a curiosity factor on the leader side and not necessarily the assumptive piece, which is they're going to go do something with it. It's to check in and be curious. So what did you think about that and what are some ideas that you have and how can I help you? But most people that I, that I've spoken with, most people love direct feedback and yet when it comes, they need time to process.

Yeah.

And then come back around and say, so here's, here's what I heard. Is this right? Or you know, and then at that point to brainstorm.

Yes, yes. And so maybe the, the clue, I mean, I love this, but maybe part of the clue is that you let the person know that you're going to revisit it again, say, so I just delivered this feedback. I want you to think about it for a bit and when we meet again, I'm going to be asking you what you might be doing with that or what you think you should do with that. And that way also, you know, like, hey, I mean business here. We're going to this again and I want to see how it's landed for you.

Yeah. And what I love about what you just said, Susan, is that there's an accountability factor that gets automatically built into it, which is oftentimes the second question that I'm posed with. So feedback is the first one. The second is how do I hold people accountable? And it's sometimes just the check in to something like that.

Right. And that check in. So what do the best leaders that give feedback, what do they do differently than those that are ineffective?

It's a great question. I think those leaders are the ones who are pretty thoughtful. I think they're the ones who are pretty secure in their own perspectives of somebody and who have a level of courageous authenticity. I think the best leaders really do look at feedback as a, as a communication tool to help up level people in a manner that is going to make them the best person that they can be. The best leaders, I think are typically very courageous, compassionate. They're kind. And I'm not saying kind in the way where they're trying to sandwich in the feedback, but they just say the thing that needs to be said in a manner that's meant to be heard. I also think that leaders that are good at feedback, they think about their environment and where they want to provide the feedback. I've had situations where leaders, again going back to the ineffective, might be providing feedback in an open forum, in front of people, in a hallway, or in a break room. Not a great place to provide feedback. So I think really effective leaders, they take people into a private space and. Or some good leaders take them out, take people out on a walk to say, let's go for a walk and let's have a conversation about something that's been on my mind. They make it safe. They, you know, they create an environment of safety for the person that they're giving feedback to.

Yeah. And they do it more regularly too.

Yes.

Because if you don't do it very much at all and then you say, let's go for a walk, it's like, whoa. But if that's sort of a regular course of how you interact. Right. Then it becomes, you know, it just, it doesn't become such a big deal for you or for them.

Right. And that, that also comes to a great point, which is really good. Leaders who are effective, they practice giving feedback like we practice anything else. You know, I often say to leaders, you need to practice this. It's not just a one and done kind of thing. And then every. And then I'll become very playful and I'll ask, what are some things that you practice regularly today? And they'll be like, what? I'll say, well, do you play golf? Yes. Do you go out and do you hit balls on the driving range? Yeah, I do. Okay, well, why don't you think of feedback in a very similar manner and just practice giving feedback so that you can normalize it and normalize it in your environment with your team so that everybody's expecting it. It's just part of the everyday communication, skill and style.

I love that. I love that mindset shift and that, that tip. To think of it as, this is not something that everyone is masterful at from the get go.

Right. None of us. Most of us aren't. Yeah. I mean, in fact, you know, when we were kids, or at least in, in my household, if I couldn't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. And so you just kind of hold back from telling the person the thing that they need to know.

Yeah. I imagine another way to go about it is similar to your experience having them connect to an experience where they gave, where they received powerful feedback that may have been difficult for the person to hear for, you know, for the client, for that leader, but it actually, it had a big impact. Why would you want to withhold that opportunity for someone else? Look at how that impacted you. You know, you have the opportunity to do the same for someone else so that it for them. I think that mindset shift, like I'm going to hurt this person is now it's I'm going to help this person because look how it helped me even when it was a harder message to hear.

Yep.

I'm curious to know if there's other mindset shifts that, that you see that are most powerful, what assumptions that people have about what the feedback needs to look like. And I'll give you an example. Some leaders have the assumption that you always have to do the feedback sandwich, the positive feedback, the negative with the positive. What would you say to that?

I think that from my perspective, I think the negative, the feedback that is actionable gets sandwiched in to. To that situation. And I think sometimes people miss the actual intention of what the feedback is. It can be handy, but I think it's overused. I think it's a way, this is just my perspective. I think it's a way for a leader to hide around saying the real thing that needs to be said, which is I care about you and this thing is holding you back.

Yeah. Well, I think you also bring up another point is I care about you. So there's a relationship safety piece that needs to get established to make the person receiving the feedback more welcoming or receptive to what you have to say. And I think that, that. So maybe it's a difference in the feedback sandwich. Feedback sandwich. I'm going to tell you something positive you did, but perhaps instead it's I'm going to tell you why I'm giving you this feedback. Because our relationship matters to us and this is why. Or you know, essentially I care about your development and I care about your success. Therefore I'm going to give you this feedback. Right, right. And putting it. It's more about context setting on one hand, or it could also be context settings, not just about the person. It could be about the person. But I care really about the mission that we're here to accomplish.

I think that that's a great way to, in terms of pulling it up as well too. Like we're in this together and, and I want you to be the best version of yourself. And so this feedback is important.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. What is there any trick to giving feedback or specific tip that you're like a lot of leaders, you know, could benefit by doing just this one thing.

Do you know the, the one thing that I like to encourage leaders to do is I like to encourage leaders to reflect on the person they're going to give feedback to. So who is the person? What do you know about them? What do they mean to you? What is the purpose in giving the feedback? What is the fear from holding you back from giving feedback? And then the final thing is what is the outcome that you hope to achieve by providing the feedback? And just really from a contextual standpoint like sitting, sitting with it and doing some preparation and that becomes part of the practice. So from my perspective, if people can get into a practice of preparing to give feedback, not in a fearful way, like here's the other thing too, I think oftentimes leaders and ping pong back and forth, if I say this, they'll do this. If I say that, they'll do this. Right. They have this internal conversation. If leaders can just sit with themselves and reflect on what it is that they want to provide and then do that, practice that it'll come easier and easier and easier over time. So I think the reflective, the introspective reflective piece to prepare for it is the tip that I would give leaders. Be thoughtful.

Yeah, great, great. What about the leader that's, that says, you know, I did the preparation, I felt like I said what I wanted to say and I still got a lot of defensiveness, a lot of negative reaction. What should I do now?

Yeah, I think what I would do is I would encourage the leader just to let that person sit with their defensiveness and then approach it again and to come back and say, one of the things that I've noticed about you is that when you're provided with feedback, you have a tendency to, to become defensive, which then makes it hard for me to give you the feedback. So I as a leader, asking the person when feedback is, is needs to be given to you, how do you want to receive it? And maybe again, question. Just using curiosity.

Yeah, I love it. A curiosity around it. But also you're saying this is what I notice and I'm curious to know what would be most effective for you. Right? Yeah. Is there anything that you've learned in writing the book that surprised you?

Well, I think something that surprised me is how much I had to say about it. I think, you know, as I sat down and started to write and how many. How many experiences that I had throughout my career that pointed to really effective feedback or ineffective feedback. And I would say, and even as I shared some of the stories, the harmful aspects of feedback gone wrong and what it has on a person's psychological experience of, you know, the work and things like that. So those are a couple of surprises. The, the physical act of writing the book. For me, what surprised me is that I could sit still for so long and focus on something like this. But what, what emerged for me and, and surprised me in the book is unfolded by itself. I mean, there was just so much to share, and the pages in, in some cases sometimes just wrote themselves.

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Really tapped into that wisdom. What do you think makes your book on feedback unique? Obviously, there's other books out there on Feedback. What's your unique take on that?

It's a great question, Susan. I. I actually read a lot of the books that were out there on feedback to try to figure out what does make my book unique or different. And, and the feedback that I've received from many people who've read my book is that how consumable it is? It's written in a way that you don't have to read it cover to cover. There's different chapters like what is the cost of not getting feedback? Or what are the. What's a unique way of looking at feedback so people can grab my book and grab a chapter that might be. That might resonate for them.

Fantastic. So what's one thing a leader can do tomorrow to improve their ability to give feedback?

I think the one thing that they could do is to begin to notice where they're not. Where they're holding back. Notice what kind of internal complaints they might have about situations or people or things like that, and just notice it and to start to practice. But another, another thought that I just had, Susan, is to start practicing and perhaps not work environments. And so think about it this way. You go in and you order your favorite beverage in the morning at your favorite coffee shop or wherever you get your favorite beverage. Oftentimes what people will do is they'll get their beverage and they'll notice it's too hot or perhaps lukewarm, but they'll take it just exactly the way that it's served to them. One of the things that people can start to do is to notice this is too hot or it's too cold and go back and ask for it the way that they want it and just say give feedback and say this is too hot. Would you mind putting some ice cubes in it? Or this is lukewarm. Would you mind heating it up? Even that small practice and noticing feedback in everyday life can help you become a better leader at giving feedback.

That's great. That's great. Well, where can people learn more about you and your work?

Thanks for asking. So where people can learn more about me and my work is on my website. It's www.jdhinsights.com. you can also send an email to me at joan@jdh insights.com and those are the best places right now to find out more about me.

Well, fantastic. Well, thank you so much again for joining this great conversation. I know you and I could talk a long time about some of the things we've said.

Yes, we can. We've got a lot to share, but thank you so much. I appreciate the invitation to be here today. Thank you.

And if you like this episode, you're not going to want to miss my interview with David Meltzer, who shares his personal journey on empowering over 1 billion people to find happiness. Let's all lead the way. Hope you enjoyed today's episode and I'd like to point you to the next important step. Hit the subscribe button to get notified when we release new content. I'll see you on the next episode of the Enlightened Executive. Sam.