Self-Compassion: Stretching Your Perspective (feat. Sharon Salzberg)

Hi, I'm Susan Drumm. And welcome to the enlightened Executive where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help you get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness. And with me today, I am so grateful to introduce my guest, Sharon Salzberg. Sharon is a meditation pioneer, a world renowned teacher, and a New York Times bestselling author. As one of the first to bring meditation and mindfulness into the mainstream American culture over 45 years ago, her relatable, demystifying approach has inspired generations of meditation. Sharon is the co founder of the Insight Meditation Society and author of 11 books, including the New York Times bestseller Real Happiness and her seminal work, Loving Kindness. Her podcast, the Meta hour has over 3 million downloads and features interviews with top leaders and thinkers of the mindfulness movement. So welcome, Sharon.

Well, thank you so much.

So many of our listeners will know what loving kindness meditation is, but for those who don't, I'd love for you to start a bit about contrasting what it is and contrasting it with other types of meditation.

Sure. Well, I think probably a much more well known form of meditation these days is mindfulness meditation. So I myself, I went to India to learn how to meditate. This was when I was in college. I was going to college in Buffalo, New York, and I heard about meditation in a university course and I looked around Buffalo and I didn't see it anywhere and finally created an independent study project and, and presented it to the university and said, I want to go to India and learn how to meditate. And they said, okay. So when I finally came back as a meditation teacher, I went twice. I went, came back, finished school, and then went back. I came back in 1974 as a teacher because my own teacher had told me to teach. And in those days, of course, you never heard the word mindfulness and you use the word meditation. It was like, whoa, that's a little strange, kind of woo. And so it's been quite interesting for me to watch over these years how a word like mindfulness has gotten so prominent. So mindfulness is a quality of awareness that allows us to see our experience without so much clutter, without so many filters, without so many projections. One example, a very common example, would be if we have physical discomfort or we have heartache, we have disappointment, very commonly we start thinking, what's it going to feel like tonight? What's it going to feel like tomorrow? What's it going to feel like next week? Not only do we have the actual situation, we have everything. We've added to it in terms of our anticipation of a really bad time.

Interpretation of it.

Yeah, exactly. We feel defeated, we feel overwhelmed, and. And we don't need to. It's like some things are incredibly challenging, but we don't need that extra stuff on top of it. And so mindfulness helps us see much more clearly what our experience actually is in the moment. And that's what it's designed to do. Loving kindness meditation, which is a very. It's like a sister practice, is very supportive, but it's distinct is more practice where we are. I call it the stretch. It's like we realize we're used to paying attention in. In a certain way from a certain angle. We have kind of a rut, and we're just going to stretch a little bit and pay attention from a different angle. So a common example would be, let's say you're the kind of person who at the end of the day, you go back and you kind of evaluate yourself for the day. And let's just say you're the kind of person who pretty well only remembers the mistakes you made and what you didn't say quite right, and how you flubbed some presentation. Let's just say so much so that your whole sense of who you are and all you'll ever be is locked into this really stupid thing you said at a lunchtime meeting. So loving kindness would be almost like saying to yourself, anything else happened today? Like, you know, we do that through the vehicle of wishing ourselves well. Instead of going through the list again of all of our flaws. It's making an offering to ourselves. May I be safe, be happy. You know, so it's gift giving, it's offering. And some people feel a little alarmed at that because they feel they're moving from a true place to a place of denial or just being sentimental. But really it's moving from perhaps a true place to another true place, which gives very little airtime. In the end, what we come to is a much more complete picture of who we are. Then that extrapolates. There are the many beings maybe that we work with or that our clients are something that we tend to objectify. We look through, we discount. The question is, what happens when we in effect, look at them instead of through them?

Yeah, yeah.

So it's a different world that gets created through that stretch.

I love the focused intention of shifting perspective and noticing that our perspective when we're in those spaces that you mentioned is so narrow and we're not making it better by piling on. Right. We're Sort of beating ourselves up. And not much can get created from that. And it's just patterns that we've learned over time.

Right.

And so the practice is taking specific time to shift that perspective and seeing what's possible as a result of that.

Yeah, exactly. And I love the way you use the kind of narrow, the Latin language, because I think that's exactly what it is. We fixate, we get locked in. Our world gets very small, whereas it could be more open. And really, we meditate in two different ways. One is like a dedicated period, which we may be sitting, we may be walking, we may be lying down, whatever the posture is. But it is a period where our goal, our intention is just to deepen qualities like mindfulness or compassion. It's not to also figure out our strategic plan. That may come up for sure, but that's not the intention. And that period, it doesn't need to be very long. Neuroscientists friends of mine tell me that 12 minutes a day, three to five times a week, will actually change your brain in measurable ways on FMRI machines.

How does it change your brain? Meaning what happens in your brain?

Yeah, well, I'm not a scientist, but apparently centers like the amygdala which govern emotional hijack, fight or flight, they actually get smaller. And centers that have to do with executive function, which is actually the term clearer decision making, not panicking, you know, and making decisions because of like just a kind of vague thing that's flitting by, you know, and then suddenly you're on a road that you actually regret, you know, having more clarity in those ways. They strengthen, they actually grow. And there are conduits that, you know, that shift and change. So I said to my neuroscientist friend, you know, first of all, I don't know if it's that healthy to go for the bare minimum, you know. Right, right. Yeah. I usually say, can you do 20 minutes a day? If you can't, that's okay, you know, do what you do. And I also say, and this is just a question of self knowledge, that for me, three to five times a week is not the most useful model. Because if it were me, it would be Monday. And I think I'll start on Wednesday. Yeah, Wednesday. And I'll think I'll do it three times on Saturday every day.

It doesn't become that ingrained habit that you need to.

Every day is every day. So that's one aspect. The other aspect is what we call short moments. Many times or in one book I wrote, I Called it stealth meditations. It's like what you do at work that nobody knows you're actually meditating, you know.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yes. The cup of tea and just from you feel the warmth of the teacup and you smell the tea and you taste the tea and it's like just for a few moments you're not multitasking.

Really present to what you're doing. Body sensations, your breath, all of those pieces. One of the things I want to touch on is the resistance people that may have to meditation, those that aren't regular. I had that resistance about, I think I started about eight years ago, eight or nine years ago. And I always thought there's no way I can stop thinking. My mind goes too quick, it's got a million inputs all the time. This is frustra, I'm not going to do it. And it wasn't until I was challenged with some sleep issues that I thought I've got to look into this. And I actually started with Vedic or TM Transcendental meditation which was mantra focused and breath focused. And what I can't believe now is that I don't go a day without getting up and the first thing I do is meditate because I do find it transformed my outlook, it did improve my sleep, but now it's almost like my day is not as good without spending that 20 minutes. And so I think the two biggest objections that I've heard when I've suggested meditation to leaders is I don't have the time or I can't do it. So I wanted to hear how you, I'm sure you've heard those objections as well, you know, in all your trainings over the years. How do you handle, let's take that one that like I don't do it right and therefore I shouldn't do it.

Well, I think that's a very, very interesting question because people, all of us have different ideas and we also have these patterns of sometimes pretty harsh self criticism and perfectionistic standards. And you know, I think it's worth in terms of meditation, getting some understanding of what's to be expected. Because it's just like you said, like so many people have said to me, oh, I tried meditation once, I failed at it. Well what do you mean you failed at it? We don't believe you can fail at it. And they say I couldn't stop my thinking, I couldn't make my mind blank. You know, it's some image we have of there should not be any thoughts arising. And that's really not what happens anyway. You know, it's not about eradicating the ability to think. It's much more about changing our relationship to our thoughts. And I think anybody can actually relate to the concept of getting a little bit of space.

Yes.

You know, the thoughts may come, they may be torrents of thoughts. We don't have to take them all to heart, you know, we don't have to be guided by them, each of them, and making our choices. You know, we just want a little bit of space. Not distance, not icy cold distance, but just some space, you know? Yeah. So that we can watch things come and go. We can learn sort of the emotional entanglements that the thoughts are implying. You know, we can, we can see some cause and effect there. And if we have enough space, we also see options, we see alternatives. You know, back to the model you kind of hinted at, which I'm very taken with because I'm writing about it now. You know, this sort of narrowness, constriction.

Yeah.

Tight place compared to a more open, expansive place. So, you know, rather than taking the habit of self judgment, like if too many thoughts, they're all stupid, you know.

It'S just more judgment.

Right.

Even more reason why you need to meditate.

Yeah, exactly. You know, it's like actually taking the time and learning a little bit about what to expect, I think.

And it's, you know, do your, do your thoughts have you or do you have thoughts? And I think the meditation is. Allows you to take step back to say these are the thoughts, you know, that I'm noticing a pattern and can I, through loving kindness meditation in particular, can I try on a different shift, a different perspective of that, of that internal dialogue and what's possible as result of that? How do you handle the other objection of I just don't have time?

Well, I would say do you have 12 minutes three to five times a week? You know, like when we say we don't have time, sometimes we're thinking you need hours, you know, and you have to sit in some pretzel, like pose and you know, and it's like straining and. And if you don't have 12 minutes, do you have five minutes? You know, do you have three minutes? I actually think it's the regularity of it. And if you don't have any of that, do you have 10 seconds literally? There have been studies done also on just those activities. Like maybe the most famous one these days is don't pick up your phone on the first ring, let it ring three times and breathe and then you pick it up. So I once suggested that in a financial firm in New York I was teaching at, I looked up and I saw the complete panic on everyone's faces. I said, well, maybe for you, just twice. Just like, let it ring twice. And that we have. And there have been studies done that is making a difference. Just those kind of circling medicines.

Yeah, that same thing. Do you have your phone or does your phone have you. I mean, wow, are we reactive to the phone?

Yeah.

Well, speaking of executives, I'm wondering, so you've got your retreat center, and I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. But I think providing some examples of maybe people who came in, like me, were skeptical, particularly in the executive world or entrepreneurs, and really saw the transformation by just being consistent with the practice. Do you have any examples like that?

Yeah, there are many kinds of examples. I mean, I think leadership sometimes has gotten redefined for people through their own meditation practice. Like, I'm thinking of my favorite question in going into a workplace or an organization is, how many other people need to be doing their job well for you to do your job well? Because actually, we live in an interdependent universe, and we need to have a sense of connection to all these different parts. And I recently asked that question in that context, and people weren't that into it, you know, they didn't feel that resonant with it. Then I said, okay, how for those of you who work outside the home, how are you getting there? And is there a mode of transportation where you're counting on somebody actually providing that service? And they thought, oh, yeah, you know, like, I like my car mechanic to pay attention when they work, you know, like. Right. I'm really counting on that. And how about if you happen to eat, you know, like, yeah. And you're not growing your own food. And then we just realized that. So I've seen that, you know, say, most recently in a. In a physician who ran a large medical practice in the hospital. And it makes a difference in how you approach your employees and how you. How you recognize that feeling of. Of being on a team. And then there's just. I mean, of course, you know, people in the financial world are coming to mind right now who. There's just the question of personal stress. So really, there are almost two aspects. There's the personal stress, not being able to sleep and having these wildly unrealistic, perfectionistic standards for oneself, and being able to not lose a sense of excellence, you know, and not lose that sense of an edge, really. You know, wanting to be at the edge of your capabilities, but not with that kind of, I don't know, meanness towards yourself. Yes. Or harshness and understanding that, you know, you will work much better with periods of rest and release and renewal and then coming back and so on. So there's oneself and then there's the culture, you know, of the organization or the team or whatever dimension. I mean, the word culture is interesting because it might mean your body, your own body and mind, it might mean your desk, it might mean your team, it might mean your company. And I've seen people make incredible efforts to create what they call a culture of wellness at work. And watching how I'm thinking of one woman executive in the fashion world, and she would talk about these things to an institute about feedback and people learning to listen to one another and, and being together in a different way and being able to reveal some vulnerability with one another, like be a human being. And then she'd say, and the clothes need to get made, you know, so it's not losing sight of, of what the objective is.

Absolutely, absolutely. But I also think, you know, what I've learned over time is how you treat yourself is how you treat others. And what I love about the loving kindness meditation is it's really building that self compassion towards yourself. And the more that you are loving and kind to you, the more loving and kind that you bring to the workplace. Doesn't mean that you don't hold high standards, that you're focused on achieving important objectives, but it's how you're doing it.

Right.

So maybe you could share a little bit more about your work around self compassion.

Yeah, well, I think it's one of the really confusing ideas, you know, because, I mean, I think I've taught, I don't know, haven't countless times, you know where I'll use the term self compassion, which has gotten more popular in Western psychology these days. But, you know, I use the term self compassion, somebody will raise their hand and say, that's just laziness. You know, that's just like saying, I made a mistake. So what? I'll forgive myself. I can make another one in 10 seconds. Doesn't matter, I'll forgive myself again. But it's really not. It's like, I think if we look at our own experience, and certainly when I've looked at my experience, you know, myself, it's like there's a kind of recognition, like, I blew it, I made a mistake, I fell down. That's important. And it's painful. Often but it's got a flavor of, like, lessons to be learned, you know, what can I take from this? To go on with a determination to be different or maybe making amends, you know, maybe trying to rectify something so it's not being oblivious, but it's different than this kind of endless self recrimination. Like, yeah, I can't do anything right. I never do anything right. You know, why do I even try? It's like, this is so terrible, which we actually do, you know, and it's just a place I think, that we come to of realizing that when we indulge in that kind of harshness and punitive atmosphere, that not only are we taking a tremendous amount of time, but it's so demoralizing, we actually emerge exhausted rather than with that sense of wherewithal. So if we look at, like, where does resilience come from? What does it look like? You've got to have some energy because you're starting over. Right. You're bouncing back.

Yes.

And if the way you speak to yourself just drains you of energy, it's not going to work.

No. And I think given the importance of working through the pandemic coming out of it, just how you're building resilience with yourself and with your teams. So more important than ever to be focusing on that. I'd love to get a little taste for our listeners and viewers on a meditation, a loving kindness meditation would be so honored as to lead us through a short one. Just to give people a feeling of what we really talk about. Because we can talk about it, but actually doing it, it makes all the difference.

Sure. So since the request was for loving kindness meditation, that's the one we'll do. It won't be for very long. But the idea of loving kindness meditation is that we silently repeat certain phrases. And the phrases are a way of making an offering. They're gift giving. It's like handing someone a birthday card and saying, may you have a great. May you be happy, may you be peaceful. And we call different beings to mind to say beings, because might be a puppy, for example. And we repeat those phrases over and over again. It's not a practice where you have to try to force a certain emotion or you have to block what's actually coming up. The skill set is actually something that is pretty universal across all kinds of meditation, which is your mind's going to wander, you know, you're going to be just accept that, maybe happy, maybe peaceful. And then you're like redesigning your office, you know, and wishing you'd gone to architecture school or whatever, and you realize that that's the critical moment in any practice where we need to learn to let go gently. It's what one of my meditation teachers called exercising the letting go muscle and coming back to the original object, whether that's the phrases of loving kindness or mantra or the breath or whatever vehicle you're using, we're going to get lost. We let go and we come back. So it's right there that what we were just talking about, resilience, being able to start over, being kind to yourself, it's all right there. So if your mind wanders a billion times, don't worry about it. If you fall asleep, don't worry about it because it's the next moment that is really most critical. Okay, so in loving kindness meditation, we are silently repeating these phrases and we tend to make the offering to different beings, ourselves, someone we care about, maybe someone we're trying to help, and then ultimately all beings everywhere. So obviously you can't do too much in a very, very short sitting. So we'll do a little bit. Okay? So if you want to just sit comfortably, you can close your eyes or not. However you feel most at ease. Now, when I become silent, that's the time when you can put into practice what I've just suggested. So see if you can have your energy just like settle into your body. And I'll suggest a couple of phrases. If you have a loving kindness practice already, you may have your own phrases, but for now, if you don't, you might use these. And the first recipient, classically is ourselves. So see if you can silently repeat, may I be safe, be happy, Live with ease. Live with ease means the things of day to day life, livelihood, family. May it not be such a struggle. May I live with ease. May I be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with ease. People often ask, who am I asking? We're not asking anybody anything. We're gift giving, we're offering. See if you can repeat the phrases with enough space and enough silence so that it's a rhythm that's pleasing to you, Remembering you're committing to pay attention differently for this little period. See if you can think of somebody who's helped you in some way. Maybe they've mentored you, maybe they've helped you directly, or somebody who's inspired you even from afar. This is actually where I use the puppy, because in this pandemic, my friends adopted a puppy and they are so much happier as a family than they were before. So I think of the puppy and I just want to smile. So is there someone like that in your life? And if there is, you can bring them here, see if you can get an image or say their name to yourself, get a feeling for their presence and offer the phrases of loving kindness to them. Even if the words don't seem perfect, they're carrying the heart's energy, so they're serving us. May be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with ease. Let's just see who comes to mind. We're going to have a gathering. Friends, family, colleagues, puppies. Whoever appears and will offer loving kindness to the group, to the collective. May you be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with ease. Sam. And then we'll close with just a kind of global wish. May all beings be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with ease. All people, all creatures, all those in existence, near and far known unknown. May all beings be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with ease. And when you feel ready, you can open your eyes to lift your gaze and we'll end the meditation.

Thank you so much for that very powerful meditation. When I do that work and I take that moment to stop all the problems and anxiety that's a low grade fever in the background, seems to be lifted, I come out with this sense of radiance and just such excitement in a way to be alive. What a way to engage now with others with that feeling, Right? So incredibly powerful. I guess one question that people may have who haven't done this before, does it matter the phrases that you use? Or can you just choose any that feel resonant to you as you go.

Through that you can really choose any phrases? I think the main point is that they're big enough, they're general enough, so that as you move from category to category, you can more or less stay with the same phrases. We don't always stay with the same phrases, but you don't want the burden of every time you think of a new phrase, for example, to think, what about you? You're not looking for a new apartment in New York, so what about you? So that's why it's things like happy, free, filled with loving kindness, whatever it might be.

And so if someone wants to then repeat that process from what we did today, the first is offering the gift to yourself and then offering a gift to someone who inspires you or a mentor, and then offering the gift to the people in your life and then offering the gift to all beings everywhere.

Yeah. And often it depends on how much time you have or what's happening in your life. Like there may be others, you know, that you're including before you get to the. The larger category. It may be friend who's struggling right now.

Yeah.

And you really want to, you know, bring them closer in some way into your consciousness.

Yeah, absolutely.

I made a joke once, which is actually kind of true, which is my specialty is medical loving kindness. So anytime you have surgery, just let me know the time. I'm not on the east coast and it's not like 2 in the morning. Right, right, right.

Well, this has been amazing. Where can people learn more about your work, about your retreat center? If you want to say anything about that? And just about the practice, my website.

Is probably the best place for me and my schedule and to kind of branch out into looking at the practice. And that's Sharon Salzberg dot com. Salzburg spelled with an E, not with a U. So you have to make sure your spell check doesn't change your back to you. The retreat center is the Insight Meditation Society. It's in Baron, Massachusetts, and like all such places, we've been closed since March 2020, but we are about to open again.

Oh, great.

We started it in 1976 and it's still here and it's still flourishing. So many ways. We also institute a lot of online programming because we were closed physically. And that's going to continue in many ways. And actually you can find me and other teachers there as well.

Well, that's wonderful. Well, I am so grateful for your time today. So thank you for joining us and taking us through that beautiful meditation.

Well, thank you so much. It's been a real delight to be with you.

And if you like this episode, you're not going to want to miss my interview with Patrick McKenna, an uber successful investor who's learned to have his ambition fueled by love, not fear. And another person that Sharon knows as well.

That's right. Say hello for me. I will.

And thank you. Thank you for your time. Hope you enjoyed today's episode. And I'd like to point you to the next important step. Hit the subscribe button to get notified when we release new content. I'll see you on the next episode of the Enlightened Executive.