Susan Drumm on Enlightened, Self-Aware Leadership

Ray Ban Meta glasses come with open ear audio so you can listen to your favorite music without blocking out the world around you.

Hey Meta, play Gorgeous. Here's Gorgeous by Doja Cat.

You can also ask Meta AI questions.

Hey Meta, when's Doja Cat's next concert? Doja Cat is playing at the Los Angeles Theater next Tuesday.

Sweet Ray Ban Meta Glasses available at Ray Ban stores and other authorized retailers.

At a team level, though, it's creating the conditions for the team to engage in the right conversation that they're probably not having.

You're listening to the Elevate podcast and I'm your host, Robert Glaser. Join me as I talk to world class performers about how they build their capacity and reach greater heights in leadership, business and life and how you can do the same. Welcome to the Elevate Podcast. Our quote for today is from Tom Peters. Management is about ranging and telling. Leadership is about nurturing and enhancing. My guest today, Susan Drumm, helps leaders get the most from their organizations. She's a CEO, advisor, leadership coach, and founder of Meritage Leadership. She has over 20 years of experience coaching top leadership and has worked with organizations such as kpmg, Oracle, Viacom and Microsoft. She's also the host of the Enlightened Executive Podcast, a top rated global speaker, and an expert in the Enneagram type indicator, which we will definitely talk about for sure. Susan, welcome. Great to have you on the Elevate podcast.

Great.

Great to be here with you. Thanks so much.

All right, so I always start at the beginning. So what did Susan look like in, let's say, early teenage years?

Oh my God. We're going back to the late 80s.

Middle school.

Yeah, we're talking about permed hair and big poofy sleeves.

Oh, that was par for the course. And so what kind of kid were you?

Well, my mother. It's interesting. My mother said I was very flighty. What she meant was like I had so many different interests and she actually even said, which is kind of funny because I went on to some great education, but that she was worried I'd never amount to anything because I was so flighty and I couldn't focus on one thing.

Yeah, those are not uplifting things, but I've heard a lot of that said. So what did you go to school for? What did you study? What got you interested?

Yeah, so I went to an undergrad. I went to Carnegie Mellon and studied business. And then I went to Harvard Law School.

Not so flighty.

Not so flighty, right. So when I focus, I can really focus but part of it is finding what. What my interest is, what lights me up. And even after that, it took me a number of years in my career to really land what that was. And it's leadership development. But I went to law school and didn't end up practicing law.

Yeah. I was gonna ask you, so what did you do after law school?

Well, I remember when I was in law school, you split your summers or I split my summers, meaning I worked for two different law firms each summer that you have to try things out. And I kept trying different types of law, and I was like, oh, my God, I don't want to do this. What am I going to do now? I have all this loan debt, and I need to get the job at the big law firm, but I don't want to do the job at the big law firm. And that's when I started taking.

This is the essence of the struggle of law school these days.

But, yeah, well, I started taking classes at Harvard Business School that I could transfer over since I had a business undergrad degree. And I got interested in consulting and decided to apply for one of the management consulting firms. So McKinsey BCG, and I still took the bar in New York and passed in case I needed to go that route. But I jumped ship right out of graduation and went and did strategy consulting at bcg.

Awesome. Yeah. I had a bunch of friends that work there. It's a great learning experience to just dive in and figure out markets and companies and otherwise. It's a great education.

Yes. Yes. It was really helpful in the sense that it allowed me to quickly learn different markets and learn how to assess without having years and years and years of experience. And that, I would say, formed the baseline for the consulting work I do now, because often I have to get up to speed on the strategy of something so that I can design a program that will help advance the strategy.

And so what was the transition into leadership consulting?

Oh, well, there were a couple more twists and turns before I got there.

This keeps getting. Each chapter gets more interesting. So I shouldn't have cut you off. Keep going.

No, it's actually.

Then you bought a restaurant and we're a head chef.

Yeah, exactly.

And then.

Well, kind of, in a way. So each step of the process, though, gave me a little piece of what I do today. So law is really focused on making distinction, like honing the skill of making distinctions. And the use case for that is making distinctions for case law, where I use that same skill to help make distinctions in mindset.

Right.

And how People think, but it's still about listening for assumptions and beliefs and different arguments. BCG taught me the strategy piece and how to meld leadership development with strategy. And from there, I went to NBC, which was owned by GE at the time, and I had the interesting position as black belt or master black belt in Six Sigma. But what that taught me was how you could actually measure and use data for things that seemed unmeasurable at the time. And a lot of it was doing analysis around Nielsen data and how I worked for the marketing and sales organization. But I use that now because it's. How do we put data against some of things that people feel but they can't actually articulate, you know, team effectiveness and EQ and leadership styles, all of those. So there's a big push of using data in what I do today. But the real twist happened after all that, I moved to London and got a master's in acting.

That's not that far from a restaurant.

Yeah.

And I think people probably thought I was crazy at the time, and I was kind of crazy at the time in the sense that I was just fed up. Like, I'd worked, you know, in a sort of big company culture then, and it just felt so. Just life sucking in a way. You know, dealing with the political challenges, dealing with. It wasn't really about the work, and it didn't feel like a meritocracy. And so I decided to pursue something I'd always wanted to do, and I didn't even know. It was almost like I was gonna.

Take a little bit of a break.

I just needed something that would be out of the box, and I didn't know how I would use it when I did it. But it's actually critical to what I do today, because it was during acting training that I learned so much about the inner critic and that voice inside your head and how to be more present and authentic with people. And because you got to manage that as an actor, I mean, you can't be in front of the audience and connect to your fellow actor and play the role if the internal critic is going, oh, my God, that guy's texting while I'm doing this part.

Right.

And then really how to be authentic with what you're feeling and how. How to have that come across. And obviously training on stage, of course, to help. So I kept thinking, there's got to be a way I could use this in business, because I think some of the leaders that I've been working with in my prior experiences could use acting training. But a way to use it in a different way. And that's how I fell into leadership development because after going through that, I went back into consulting and worked for a boutique leadership development consulting firm for a couple years and kind of learn the ropes there.

So now you work with the team or just the CEO or both?

Both. Both, yeah.

And is it a specific size or range of company or it's kind of across the board?

It's a little across the board, although usually it's either. I work a lot with private equity firms who will put me working with their portfolio companies that are in rapid scale.

I was going to say they have you assess the team before they invest or after they invest.

A lot of times I'm brought in a little bit before, but a lot of times I'm brought into like maybe they brought in a new CEO and the CEO needs to gel quickly with the leadership team. And so some of the programs that we have, including using leadership styles through the Enneagram, helps them get a handle on that and helps the team overcome whatever challenge might be in the way. So a lot of it is team effectiveness. Others are larger organizations where they're doing senior leadership development. So partners at a big four accounting firm or consulting firm, those are more cohort based programs of leadership development looking at what needs to shift in the senior leadership so that all the way down through the organization they also see cultural shifts.

What is it that you see? Either if you're doing an assessment for a private equity firm or you're parachuted in to help with the new leadership team, where you're like, this ain't gonna work, like problems at the top. Like, I'm always like, what's. I mean, you must have a pretty good sense. Like a lot of people I know who do coaching or coach teams or do off sites or whatever, say like they come to the first meeting and they can tell the three executives that won't be there in six months, like it's, yeah, yeah.

I mean, if I had to boil it down really simply, part of it is from a leadership perspective, are they, do they have a growth mindset or a fixed mindset? And the ones that are hungry for feedback and data and want make shifts are the ones that grow and the ones that are like, I just need to focus on, I don't have time for this or this is extra, or I need to focus on my marketing plan and not how I'm showing up as a leader. Those are the ones that are ultimately going to struggle. Because how you're showing up and leading your team will determine your effectiveness.

Yeah, I've always said, in our experience, I've seen three types of leaders. Ones who are like, look, I don't, I don't want feedback. And they're just close. They're not going to do anything with it. You sort of know what to do with them. Then they're the ones who like, I want it and they'll act on it. And those are on the other side. The tricky ones for me are the ones who, they want it and they ask for it. And then they keep making the same mistakes over and over again. You're in the same review nine months later in the same conversation. I'm not sure that that's actually not worse because it's like, I think they say that they want to hear it, but they're really not internalizing. It's almost like going through the motions.

Yeah. I think to work with those types, part of it is looking at, you know, when I say I do some deeper work with mindset. Each mindset has a price and a payoff. And so through feedback, they get clear on the mindsets that aren't working, the price that they're paying. But they're not always cognizant. You must be getting up. If you keep doing it, you must be getting a payoff. And what is that payoff?

That's interesting.

And can you actually bring that to consciousness to understand what you're getting from it and make a willingness to shift it?

So they're not clear about the payoff, but they're also probably not clear about the cost of repeating it.

Not totally clear. Right. Downplaying the cost and getting a payoff that somehow ultimately feeds ego, identity and self image. So often I see that there's some healing. There's some. What I see often is like, there's childhood wounds being played out in the workplace all the time.

450% like, I, you know, I developed this course that we started with our leaders on understanding and articulate their personal core values. Because I think similar to this enneagram and all these things, a leader, like, you're not going to be authentic leader if you can't tap into what do I value most? People like know it, but can't articulate it. But I think actually putting words to it. And when we get into those discussions, it is almost always some childhood thing. And I try to say, I'm not trying to get into psychology, but when someone has a real trust issue, look, does that come from somewhere personal for you? Did you Have a trust violation in your child and they'll look at me like, yeah. I mean, there was an example two weeks ago where someone really identified, they identified a real connection in their search for truth and data. And why that connected to a certain childhood experience. So, yeah, I mean, these things run deep.

Yes, yes. And so there's gotta be a little bit of work around healing that and looking for what is the more meaningful mission that you're gonna get on as opposed to trying to keep feeding that wound.

Well, I've talked to Tasha Urich before. You know, she focuses a lot on self awareness and I know you focus on emotional intelligence. And I think her stat is like 85% of people think they're self aware and 15% actually are, which is just really funny in itself. In your experience and you work with a lot of leaders on emotional intelligence, what's the most common mistake when they make when evaluating their own emotional intelligence?

Well, I think we were talking a little earlier. I think using accurate assessments, that there's a lot of emotional intelligence assessments out there, EQ assessments that are just self reported. You're reporting back, are you? Do you have a high eq? Yes, I do. Okay, yes you do. Like literally. I'm not kidding. And when they're self reported that way.

I got to get in the business of licensing those assessments.

It sounds pretty wicked, but if you really look at it like from that standpoint, it's not so effective. I like to use ones that are using a little bit more AI artificial intelligence piece where it's a, you know, it's a simulated scenario. But what are you picking up in terms of how that person, the other person is, what they may be thinking, feeling and wanting. And after watching whatever issue they brought to you, what are you thinking, feeling and wanting? Because real emotional intelligence as well is about what is. What's our internal experience in relationship with another person while under conflict or stress?

What are the filters we're using there?

And that's the type of data that I think is far more powerful for a leader to have the aha moment about what's going on versus just.

You've heard the adage, what starts well, ends well. Well, when you want to start your business right, start your business with Northwest Registered Agent. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They are the largest registered agent LLC service in the US and can help you and your business every step of the way. Get an LLC domain name, business email, local phone number, business address, registered agent and compliance in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Protect your identity and keep your home address private by using Northwest address on your state formation documents. Don't wait. Protect your privacy, build your brand and and get your complete business Identity in just 10 clicks in 10 minutes. Visit www.northwestregisteredagent.com paidelevate and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest registered agent@www.northwestregisteredagent.com paid Elevate there's a lot of science to back up the power of new beginnings, and there's no better time to commit to something that's been on your list than the start of a new year. Maybe you've got an idea you can't shake, a craft everyone tells you to sell, or a store you've already designed in your head. With Shopify 2026 is when you finally make it happen. Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person, and millions of entrepreneurs have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners. Just getting started. Personally, I love buying from Shopify merchants because the process is easy and with shop pay, they already have my customer and credit card info from past purchases across the network. The marketing is built in too. You can create emails and social campaigns that reach your customers in 2026. Stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com elevate go to shopify.com elevate that's shopify.com elevate here are your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

So what did you see last year? Stress, I would say brings out the worst in if it's an 8020 split, maybe the worst leadership in 80% of the people and the best in 20% of the people I've seen. Because I think until you've seen someone under duress. So you saw a lot of people under duress last year. Like what. And if it was March and April, like it was real. Like what. What did you see in terms of how that impacted their, their leadership and like did people rise or did they. A lot of them, some of their worst tendencies, you know, came, came up to the surface.

Yeah, it was kind of either side. It's almost like the, the middle was taken out and you either got worse centrifuge.

When you put pressure on people, they either, you know, they go to the outside or they, they come to the they stick to the middle, right?

Yes. Yes. And the ones that I think did really well, pushed or leaned into relationship, because people will remember how you showed up during the crisis, during the bad times. So the ones that really increased communication, increased town hall usage. Firm I worked with did an excellent job at this. Where they used to maybe do town halls once a month, every week. They were doing some work, and they were also getting a lot more personal with what they were sharing about challenges. And they built a caring connection in a way. And we just did a reassessment and we can see the relationship and the trust that was built over the past year was actually extraordinary. And in a way, what they said, I swear to God, they just said, Covid was our best friend in the sense of we've really improved the culture because of it. Now, that's a shining example right there.

Of what could have been possible. Right.

I think, look, Covid was like, for me was like, do you want to be in the foxhole with these people?

Test.

Right. So you look at your mind, your management team and leadership and peering, you're like, okay, this is going to suck. Like, do I want to do this with people or do I not want to do this with people? Right. And that becomes a very bright line that I think you can be clear about.

Yeah. And why should I care? Like, at the end of the day, what's meaningful here? And until you as a leader can also show your vulnerability around that and really what you stand for outside of yourself again, outside of identity, ego and self image, why should anybody else care, you know, other than a paycheck? But if that's all they're sticking around for, I can tell you that's not.

Going to last long.

Yeah, we don't do the counteroffer thing. And I've always said, look, if someone just wants the best offer, they're going to take the best offer four months later when someone offers it to them. Like, it's got to be something else that keeps them. And then, frankly, those people are trying to fill, I think sometimes some not a void, but for them, somehow that has become purpose or meaning or validation. And if they could get in touch with that, they'd probably be happier realizing it's not the $5,000, it's what that represents.

Yes, yes, for sure. The leaders that. That's what I said really leaned into relationship. The other leaders that were worried about are you being productive. And I'm afraid they're fooling around. And the kind of more parental.

Or.

Even patriarchal mindset that repelled people in that crisis, that's what I saw anyway.

But what about. I keep coming back a lot to the Steve Jobs quote recently. It's my new favorite quote. If you want to make everyone happy, sell ice cream. Don't be a leader if you've seen this one. So there were a lot of difficult decisions that had to be made and you can make them with grace and empathy. But again, in terms of the leadership under pressure, what did you see in terms of that? In terms of ability to just make difficult decisions where the absence of making a decision caused more problem and not worrying about that, it's going to make everyone happy. Because I think that is a trap. We've seen it a little bit. We have a very feedback oriented culture and as we got to almost 200 people, there was just a lot of signal and noise and we had to start to say, look, if two people out of 200 don't like something that's kind of like it is what it is. If 20 out of 200, then we kind of have to take a look at it. But sometimes what the two voices were just adamant about and upset about is exactly the thing that the other 198 really like. So it's hard to tune it out. But to say, look, this isn't going to change in this case and I know it doesn't make you happy, but it makes the rest of the people happy. And at some point you're kind of playing a numbers game.

Absolutely. I mean, I think as a leader you have to be decisive. You know, leading by consensus as you scale is going to be completely inefficient and effective. I think what I see needs to happen at times is people, as you get bigger, you lose connection to, let's say, the most junior employees and sometimes those employees have great data and information to share with you. So how are you soliciting input? And I think if people, if you do it in the right way and you're at least gathering input on the most important topics, let's say where you need to get buy in on the rest of the group and you make a decision and go the different direction. At least when people feel heard. The worst is when I feel like people don't feel heard at all and the decision is made in a vacuum and it didn't take into consideration some of the data that the frontline workers had. That's where I think you can run into trouble. So I think it's more about what are ways in which you're gathering feedback from the most junior ranks of your team and leveraging that in your decision Making, but making the decision nonetheless.

So given your renaissance background that we talked about before, what is sort of your personal approach to coaching effective leaders? I'm assuming you have a little bit of a different system than most people.

I would say using, similar to what I mentioned before, at a high level. It's around helping them understand the mindset that may be driving them. But part of it is of course, as you said, building for self awareness. So a couple different assessment tools I like to use depending on what is initially showing up and the Enneagram being one of them, looking at where the blind spots are in their leadership gathering, including that with some 360 data from those around them and then looking at, okay, here's the data set. The data's out there. What do you want to do, what do you want to work on and what could potentially be getting in your way that's on kind of an individual level. At a team level though, it's creating the conditions for the team to engage in the right conversation that they're probably not having to elevate how they're getting work done. A lot of times the team is working on the.

Is the conversations they're not having is that they know they need to have them or they don't know they're not focusing on the right, like they're avoiding them or just they're not talking about the right things at the right level.

That both, both can be present. And when I say things at the right level, like, you know, when you're doing some team development work, you're taking time out from gameplay to go into the stands or watch the tape, the review tape and look at how are we playing and what is working about that and what is not. And taking that time out to step back and creating a way to have that dialogue is really the type of work that we do.

And I know you do a lot of work with Enneagram. We've done all kinds of different ones and I think that they all have different approaches. But when you really get into some of these assessments from a team dynamic, like if you did a battery of these on a husband, wife or couple, you can tell why people fight. You could be like here it's very clear that these issues are just coming at it from different ways philosophies. Otherwise we've learned that these things are essential in team dynamics. What is it about Enneagram for you that's different from Disc and Colby and strength finders and all the other ones that are out there?

Absolutely, because I've worked with so many of them. And for me, the Enneagram is much deeper and it points to direction of growth. It's particularly effective in team settings.

Um, so I'll describe all of those. So, for one, and can you tell.

Us, do you know where it came from? Like, do you know the origin of it?

That's the other thing.

No one owns the Enneagram.

No, I know. Cause there's all these different versions of it. So I was wondering, like, what it was based off of. Cause clearly it's not.

There's not different versions of the model. There's only different, like, slight variations of the names of the type.

And it's different assessments and stuff, right?

There's different assessments, yes.

And I can also talk about what.

Makes the Enneagram challenging, but what makes it unique is we're getting to the level of motivation, not behavior. So other assessments tell you what you do. The Enneagram answers a different question, which is, why would you do that? And when you get to that level of motivation or driver, that's what opens up creating the development path for you. And the interesting thing is, and why it's such an effective team tool is because the development path for you is outlined by the model, something called your wing styles and the arrow lines, and those are the numbers on either side of you and the numbers that are where there's an arrow pointing towards or away from you. So there's something that, like, for me, I'm a type 7, there's an arrow pointing towards type 1. There's something I have to learn from the type 1, and there's something the type 1 has to learn from me. And yet that's probably the person I'm going to have the most conflict with. We use this tool to be able to create flip conflict on its head in a way that people now appreciate. The different perspectives that people are bringing and why they're bringing them. We think we're chameleons and can see 360 degrees.

Yeah.

But we actually have a certain peripheral vision. And where we point our focus of attention, that's what we see. We can't see what's behind our head, but in the Enneagram model, someone else is looking that direction. And so one of the first things people say is like, wow, I thought everyone was motivated by this or thought like this. And now I realize that they're not. But even more, I understand how you can be my ally. You who have been getting under my skin skin and triggering me, how you can be actually my Ally. Because the best teams are cognitively diverse teams. And that's what. That's what I'm saying. I use this tool to promote cognitive diversity.

Right. This is why people never recommend to use these things for hiring. Right?

Yes.

Yeah. Really more to say, okay, here's our diverse team. Now, how do we benefit from this diversity? But then also, where are we going to run into conflict from it?

Yes, exactly.

I've actually found that if you don't have an interview process, even if you didn't give the assessments, if you don't have an interview process that has. That is rigid and that sort of tries to knock out bias and has multiple people looking in on it. People hire people like their same types. They don't even know it before they've even taken the test. It just. They're like, oh, that person's like me. It resonates with me when actually the person they might need is the. Is the opposite.

Yes. Yes. And, you know, the other thing that makes Enneagram kind of interesting is I think the archetypes are easily remembered for team discussion. Like when I've worked with Myers Briggs, which I think is great for understanding the individual.

People can never remember that order.

Like, you're an istp. And what does that mean? How do I relate to you?

Disc is good in that realm. And that people really remember clearly where it was. There are a lot of them. So you said you're type seven, right?

Yes.

So what is the archetype on that?

That's the enthusiastic visionary. As you can see, I'm getting very enthusiastic about talking about imagery.

And what does the enthusiastic visionary not do?

Well, take in too much negative data. Meaning we tend to look at what could go right as opposed to particularly, like in a personal relationship, I'll see some of the good and not necessarily see some of the bad till it.

Comes to bite me in the butt.

So you overly trust people.

Yes, Ken.

All right. So you said there's an arrow to the One, so how does the One. What's the one?

So the One is the strict perfectionist. And the difference between. Is the one kind of has the. There's one right way to do things and I'm going to teach you how to do that. Right. And very like, you know, I have to. I must get it right. They're motivated by doing the right thing. The Type 7 sees multiple perspectives, multiple ideas, and there's never one right way to do things and doesn't necessarily. They're motivated by fun, freedom and flexibility and options. So doesn't want to be boxed into one particular way and so there can be trigger between the two where the seven's out there brainstorming different options we can take and the one is like you're not following protocol and we need.

To go this way.

We've used a why framework that's very similar to this and I can see that this is sort of the better way person and the right way person, which is actually what my wife and I are which can get ugly. So sorry, I can see how this movie plays out. So you have new idea, throw it out there. We're going to climb the client, figure out how to do it. They are like you are a reckless, irresponsible person. Like you cannot bring them along to this because it's not baked and zoned. But that person also keeps you out of trouble by thinking through the details and otherwise. And yeah, absolutely.

And there's more than just that. There's seven really values fun and type one would be like, I don't understand.

How that's fun is doing the process correctly right?

Hiring the right person quickly can completely shift the trajectory of a team. I've seen how just one open role can stall momentum and stretch a team thinner. That's why so many businesses turn to Indeed. Their Sponsored Jobs feature moves your listing to the top of search results so the right candidates see it fast. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs get 45% more applications than those without promotion. And since I started talking, 23 hires have already been made on Indeed. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of the show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility and at indeed.comelevate just go to indeed.comelevate right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on the Elevate podcast. Indeed.com Elevate terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Join the 3.5 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast. Thanks to HomeServe for sponsoring this episode. Owning a home is amazing. Until it's not. One minute you're sipping coffee on the porch, waiting for the sunrise, and the next you're ankle deep in water from a burst pipe. Regular homeowner's insurance usually doesn't cover a lot of the day to day wear and tear, plumbing failures, H Vac breakdowns, electrical issues. You're often on your own. For those, HomeServe is like a subscription for your home. For as little as $4.99 a month. They've got your back and they've helped homeowners like you for over 20 years with a trusted national network of 2,600 local contractors. Just last year, we had a leak in our H vac system right before the winter started. And the repairs cost thousands of dollars that I wasn't planning for. Help protect your home systems and your wallet with homeserve against covered repairs. Plans start at just $4.99 a month. Go to homeserve.com to find the plan that's right for you. That's homeserve.com not available everywhere. Most plans range between 499 to 1199amonth for your first year. Terms apply on covered repairs.

So what's another like pairing that has that same sort of dynamic?

Well, any of the arrow lines that. And each. Each type has two going from them. The, the other distinction, there's. There's a common one. I just facilitated a meeting yesterday that was really looking at the dynamic between type 2 and type 8.

So 2 is the helper.

The helper. Right. Consider it helper or strategic supporter. And type eight is the challenger.

What could go wrong there?

Well, the challenger is really bold, direct, loves a debate, wants to get into it, and if there's a leadership gap, we'll step in and fill it right away. And it's kind of like we're going to go charge and take that hill.

Right.

And so they can be impatient and, you know, can basically want to move ahead before people are really aligned. Type 2 is going to. Is very empathetic and can almost feel people's feelings as if they are their own and kind of sees the brashness of an 8 as just an affront to team effectiveness. And also won't be as direct, though, which drives the eight crazy because the two is kind of beating around the bush and doesn't want to give the direct feedback. So you can see where that pairing. But they each have something to learn from each other, and the best teams have both.

Does the two need the eight more than anything? Like, is that sort of what they need the most? Obviously, these are the things like the difference in what you love about someone off 5% is what you can't stand about them. So in some ways, is that actually the balance that they need the most?

Well, that's what we do in the debrief is we look at the four different places that you can grow and have you. We share what will be easiest to grow in where you potentially should grow. But I also look for where's the motivation to grow. And generally I have them pick either one of the airlines or one of the wing styles to say, yeah, yeah, I really see I could do the work in this area. This is what's up for me Next.

And is it about toning down? This is always the sort of strength versus weakness kind of thing. Is it about just acknowledging and understanding the limitations of what you're good at or where it becomes problematic versus really trying to do that in a different way? I think people struggle with plugging the weakness or, or learning how to really manage around the weakness.

Well, I guess I would say it's about creating balance and more wholeness. So, you know, this is why, like, I'm not a fan of strengthsfinder. You know, where the concept is, you just need to double down on your strengths and all will be well. Well, you know, a type 8 leader could be really good at decisiveness and use too much becomes pushiness. And so I wouldn't say double down on your decisiveness. Like, no, that's the problem that the rest of organization has is like you're too pushy and you're not taking in the feedback that you need. So it is, to me, it's about balance.

I've said to people in different contexts, though I think it's also a little bit about playing a little bit of. It's like a psychology game with yourself on the long run too. So back to that example of the enthusiast and the reformer and say, look to the reformer. The organization really values that you keep it on time, on budget moving or whatever. But if you put up a fight about everything, then people are not going to. You're going to have a hard time playing that role because you're going to be seen as an obstructionist. Right. So actually you can accomplish the thing that is most important to you. Like, I know, like in the why construct or other. Like, I have a ton of new ideas and it can overwhelm people. Right. So I have actually come to the understanding that if I don't channel some of those ideas, like, then none of them will ever get done and then I won't actually get the. I will not get the outcome that I am seeking because I will, you know, I have to learn to like, go for the.300 batting average and pick the 3 out of 10 that I really want to. Want to fight for. Now in the moment, I'm really passionate about all 10, but none of them will happen if I try to argue for all 10.

Exactly.

And so there's the balance between seven and one. And yes, you might have your strength is the ability to see if you're seven, all the potential options. But you can't just stay there. You've got to integrate that ability to hone in and move forward and create systems and processes to scale your 1. 2 ideas.

So the Peacemaker one is interesting. I would have thought that that sort of had a line to the challenger, but it doesn't.

Well, that's what the arrows. But remember, wing styles are the numbers on either side. So Peacemaker can learn something that's type 9, can learn something from type 8, which. Which is the challenger. So that's where you're leveraging the wing style.

So explain again the difference between the line versus the wing style, the arrow versus the wing style.

So the analogy on the wing styles is that you, a lot of times people usually more in sort of studied the enneagram maybe 10 years ago, would say, oh, I'm an 8 with a wing 7 or something. We don't really do that so much anymore. We do something called subtype, which I can get into later. But with the wings, it's almost like you have two consultants in your life. One you know, you. You have on speed dial, and one you forgot their number. And so usually we lean the angel.

Devil sort of thing.

Well, no, it's a little bit like I lean towards.

I've inter.

I've learned over time because I'm now an executive to integrate one side of this, but I probably don't lean as much into the other. And so I've learned over time, like for me as a seven, I've learned to lean into my eight just given what I have to do, often challenge and be pretty hard charging in some of these meetings, particularly with very dominant voices. So I had to learn to adapt and grow that side. Some would say in Enneagram theory, the easier path of development is your wing styles, meaning the numbers. Again, on either side of you. The more challenging growth path are the arrow lines and also the direction in which they point. Some would even go further and say that the arrow pointing towards you is the one you need to work on first before turning to the arrow pointing away from you. I use it more of I look for where there's resonance and where there's energy. So I ask the people I work with, you know, I'm coaching, what resonates for them?

What do you do when you assess a team and they're all the same, they're all challengers? Well, that would be an ugly room. I'm sure that is an ugly room.

That's exactly right.

That you walk in. Everyone's just screaming at each other. But look, if they're all peacemakers, then that sounds like a Midwestern company to me where no one will say what actually is on their mind. So have you had this happen?

Yes. I mean, that's why we assess the team and then we do it first. They. The first kind of workshop is learning about the other types and who's on your team and what motivates them. But the second one is really looking at what's the compilation of the team and how does that impact your decision making and what types of questions you ask and who are the missing types that maybe if that person was there, there's certain questions they would naturally be asking. So how can we kind of force, fit and ask and remember to ask those questions? Because none of us have that type, and we wouldn't even have our sight on that.

Do you think a team, though, that like six or seven people and six out of the seven are the same type? Like, can that be a functional team or is it going to be just group think?

Well, yeah, it just depends on what you define as functional team. Like, I worked with a team once. It was a lot of twos and they got along great. But did they actually accomplish much, meet their goals?

No.

I also worked with a team where it was more. Usually they're not quite. Usually there's some diversity. But there was at least three sevens on this team and one six. Now the six is the loyal skeptic.

Or the troubleshooter, and they're all the visionaries. Yeah, yeah.

You have a whole bunch of let's go forward. Like, there's all these ideas and the other six throwing cold water on all the ideas. Like, that's never going to work. And you guys are like pie in the sky. The six was at, like, ready to quit, and it was not a good experience. And the Sevens were like, this is annoying.

Like, where she's annoying. Right.

And so the work that we did was to help them understand the hey, Sevens. You really need the six. This is what the six offers. And they had a new appreciation for their blind spot and how the six filled that role. Likewise, the six learned here's the way in which you can bring forth the potential troubleshooting that the 7 can hear because the way you're doing it now is triggering them. But if you shift it in these ways, they'll value hearing it a bit more. So they Both had room to grow, and that's where the magic happens.

So what do you think? What's going to be expected of leadership in the future? I've seen. I've seen a lot of these and look, a lot of difficult decisions or coaching otherwise is where you would get on the phone and say, I have to have this discussion or whatever. And your coach would say, well, here's how it's been done for. That can be done through machine learning and stuff. Pretty good. Here's the podcast you should listen to. Here's the HBR article. You should read all of that stuff. So a lot of the data finding or case study or best practice is going to be accessible to people, I think, on demand. How does that sort of change what's expected of leaders in the future, particularly from the emotional intelligence standpoint? Like, does that become the most important thing?

Well, I always love. There was this book, I think, called the Knowing Doing Gap that was, you know, and so, yeah, just knowing doesn't mean you're actually going to do it, as you pointed out earlier. So I think that's where coaching really helps people understand where they're getting blocked and what they're not seeing. Because, look, people also, even prior to AI could read a whole bunch of leadership books. Did that mean we had better leaders?

I mean.

I meant more micro, tactically. Like, you can get very specific. Like, even we've struggled in our company. Like, if you've had this situation before, like, what did we do? What did we say? What was our best piece of advice? Kind of getting down to that level.

Yes. Yeah, for sure. I think it is. It's fascinating. On my podcast, I interviewed somebody who was implementing AI into leadership development and developed a tool that the team could look at in terms of how they were showing up in meetings and how collaborative they were in their dialogue and using AI to do that. So almost like a coach would be observing, it could provide feedback.

It like scored them afterwards.

Yeah, we all negotiate every day in life and business. And one of my biggest takeaways from Chris Voss's class on the Masterclass platform was how powerful it is to stay calm and listen more than you speak. I also learned how small shifts in tone or phrasing can completely change the outcome of a conversation. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. With plans starting at $10 a month, billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and more. And the classes really make a difference. 83% of surveyed members have applied something they've learned from Masterclass to their lives. Plus, every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee, so there's no risk. Masterclass has always had great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com elevate for the current offer. That's up to 50% off@masterclass.com elevate masterclass.com elevate.

Yeah, I was reading something today that said, that was a podcast, the gentleman who wrote Sapiens Credible book. And it was saying, AI will probably be able to understand you, like, what mood you're in. Like, because it's not biased. You know, a lot of time we're trying to assess other people and we do it from our own judgment standpoint. But they were like, look, you might come home in 10 years. And your refrigerator was like, you seem like you had a bad day. Like, do you want this soda? And you'll be like, you get me. Like, you know, people can be seen.

And heard in a whole new way. Right.

But it was funny because, like, he's like, they don't worry about themselves. It's not, you know, they're not looking at it from their standpoint where a lot of what we're looking at is. I actually thought that was interesting. It was like, kind of sad that your refrigerator might know you that well, but. Yeah.

Yes, yes. Oh, man. But think about how, you know, ultimately, isn't that what people, they want to be seen, they want to be heard, they want to be valued.

Yeah. I have noticed that, like, it's clearly like a hack or it's an LMP thing, but I've noticed all of the airline companies and customer service new thing to do is just to repeat back whatever you said. And it really works. Like, I was super frustrated. I was on this like three times in a row. I got this Delta flight back to Boston 11 o'. Clock. It was like they weren't ready for it. The ramp wasn't there, the bags weren't coming. I wrote a note. I was like, this is ridiculous. And they're like, they just repeated it back. Like, we understand that you're really frustrated that like three times in a row your flight comes in at 11 o' clock and no one's there to greet the plane. I'm like, oh, they understand. Yeah, they got it. Just such a simple but really important thing to do is just to repeat it back. And we've actually done some, we've done some model Difficult conversations and some other stuff where people are coming in with different objectives to a meeting. And you want to also confirm back that they heard what they heard or otherwise at the end. Because it's amazing, like how we gave each person one side of the story, like a real conversation. Like you think you need a raise and you know, you think like you need a performance warning and they don't know the other person coming in. And the whole group watched and they had the discussion. And then we asked the group, how many people do you think believe that, you know, Susan knows that her job is at risk after this whole conversation. And no one raised their hand. And then you could see how all of these disconnects happen every day because the person really thought that they were making their point, but she came in with a different perspective and they were not. They thought they both had a great conversation and this person thinks he's getting a raise and this person thinks they're leaving in 30 days. Like it was. It's pretty amazing. So that sort of repetition of what you heard is really important.

Yeah.

And I think in addition, asking what the other person is taking away, that's what, you know, how much of what you said actually went in and landed or perhaps you soft pedaled it and didn't give the direct feedback that you needed to.

Yeah. What's the best question a leader can ask?

God, that's a good one. Because there's just so many very meta.

Sorry.

Yeah, I would say I was like asking, you know, what do I not know that I don't know? Meaning what is, you know, what do you see as a potential blind spot for that person?

Yeah.

Meaning like if I was a leader, to ask, like, what do you think my blind spot is?

Do you think people. Well, I say, will they get an honest answer? There's a lot of things that go into that.

There's so much that goes into creating a safe space to do that.

Yeah. Look, if you get feedback and you don't just say thank you for it, even if you're totally angry, you'll never get it again. You know, we've seen this. We had a partner years ago, we just gave them feedback, gave them feedback. You know, they didn't take it. And they told us that clients were confused and they didn't understand. Then there was a whole blow up with a thing and they're like, why don't you give us the feedback? We said we stopped giving you feedback when you kept telling us we were wrong.

That's right.

Defend everything.

Right.

Yeah. I mean, we were just bringing stuff that clients were saying to you and so it is what it was.

Yeah.

Well, Susan, last question for you. What's a mistake that you made? And this could be. It can be personal or professional or it can be single or repeated. I find a lot have themes that you learn the most from.

Yes. Well, I think it ties into my Enneagram type, which is underestimating, maybe what's required to actually execute on a vision that I had. And I just most recently got a wake up call on that. I launched the Enlightened Executive, which is a YouTube channel and podcast. And I so clear on the vision, so excited for what we really stand for, what this is going to be. Had so much amazing energy creating it. Love doing the interviews, all of that piece. But the toll on my team on the marketing side of it. I underestimated and to the point of like I had one of my best people almost ready to quit and just did not take in quickly enough, scaling the type of resources that I was going to need and checking in with her on, okay, what do you not want to be doing here? Because I thought she was all excited about everything because I was right.

You're starting to make me suspicious that I'm a seven. Because I am notoriously known for saying this shouldn't take long, this should be easy, this should whatever. And yeah, I have a bad reputation in that area.

Yes. As apparently I do too.

Well, Susan, where can people learn more about you and your work?

Well, sure. We have actually some information about the Enneagram and how to use it with a team. If you just go to susandrum.com elevatepodcast you can get that and it's S U S A N D r u m m.com elevatepodcast all right, great.

Well, Susan, thanks very much for stopping by today. I look forward to that assessment. I'm going to do it. I was telling Susan for the show. I did it before. It was a very light assessment. I didn't feel it was a few questions great about. And then she told me there's one with 172 questions. So that sounds more detailed. So we'll follow up on that. But thanks very much for joining us today.

Yes, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

All right, to our listeners, thanks for tuning into the Elevate podcast today. We'll include links to Susan and her work on the detailed episode page@robertglaser.com if you enjoyed today's episode or a listener in general. I really appreciate if you could leave us a review as it helps new users discover the show. Thanks again for your support. Until next time, keep elevating.