Susan Drumm on The Power of Music to Transform Your Leadership

Foreign.

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of beyond the To Do List. I am your host, Eric Fisher, and today I am thrilled to share with you a conversation I had with Susan Drummond. She's the author of the groundbreaking book the Leaders Playlist. Unleash the power of music and neuroscience to transform youm leadership and your life. And in this conversation, Susan will share her insights on how leaders can use the right music to break free from patterns that have held them back and make meaningful changes in your life. She also guides us through the process of creating a personalized playlist that serves as a pattern interrupter to help us shift our emotional and and thought patterns. So in this conversation, you're gonna learn how music primes the brain for change and can help us create new pathways faster and easier. Then you can understand how to create a playlist that represents your desired emotional state and use it to interrupt negative patterns. And then finally discover the importance of self awareness, building new neural pathways to transform your leadership and create a supportive environment for you. You know I love music. You know, I love the power of music. I think you're gonna love this episode with Susan. I love Drum. Well, this week it is my privilege to welcome to the show Susan Drum. Susan, welcome to beyond the to do List.

Thank you. I'm excited to be here with you.

Same. Glad to have you. And I'm really glad to talk about this. You've got a book called the Leaders Playlist and then a great subtitle. Unleash the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership and your life. And there's so many different words I'm latching onto there. Neuroscience for one, music for another, and leadership, because we talk about that pretty often. I'm curious. You've got a couple of different degrees, and you're coming at this from a couple of different approaches or angles. But the book right up front is called the Leaders Playlist. I'm wondering, can you explain what that concept is and how the road to that and this book and putting it out there came to be?

Yes, I'd be glad to share that. Well, after doing leadership development and coaching, CEOs from all sorts of backgrounds, you know, billionaire CEOs, high profile political figures, incredible Fortune 100 teams. I noticed patterns, and we'll get more into why I noticed patterns. But here's the pattern. I noticed that we lead from the child within us. So the bottom line is we're inherently terrible at making changes we know we need to make. Right? Right. We've now had. What is it 40 years of human potential research and learning about what good leadership looks like. And we've had 15 years of mindfulness and presence based training, and we're still not good at doing what we know we need to do. And that's because we're not good at interrupting ourselves. And we're not really good at creating new behavioral patterns. We get stuck in ruts and we live life like the movie Groundhog Day. And the reason that is is because these are patterns that have been deeply grooved. They're neural pathways that were built in our childhood. And so what I noticed about this is, you know, everybody, I think, has a superpower. And I think my superpower is pattern recognition. It's really how I got into Harvard Law School and ultimately became this type of leadership coach. And working with these incredible clients. And what I've noticed is I've been able to help them recognize and shift this playlist or pattern that's holding them back from thriving in their business. And why music? Well, okay, I have a master's in Music and Drama from the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Arts. But besides that, I've got a degree from Harvard Law School. I worked for Boston Consulting Group, and all of that, I bring together and develop this process that harnesses music, both literally and figuratively, to become a better leader and a better human.

That's great. Yeah. I was going to ask, like, okay, we're talking, you know, for clarity's sake, for the audience listening in. We're mentioning the word playlist, we're talking about music, but we're not just talking about it in the literal sense, but also in the. I. I was going with metaphorical sense, but also kind of the approach of using it as an example, in other words.

So, yeah, when I say playlist, you have a pattern, but also you can use music to interrupt that pattern, and you can use music to accelerate the kind of change that you want to make. So it all fits together. What I'm really suggesting is when you change your playlist, you change your life. And now I'm sure you'll ask, well, why music? Like, what does music have to do with it? That's an interesting combination of music and leadership, right? Well, what I discovered is music, and there's a ton of research out there on this. Music primes the neurological landscape to form new pathways faster and easier. So when you use it the right way, you can even shift deep seated patterns built from childhood that get in our way. And the way I'm suggesting you use it is you can Break free of patterns that get us stuck and overwhelm and frustration. Because with this new playlist, you'll have freedom, more engagement, more deep satisfaction for you. And if you lead a team with your team, your business will run more efficiently and effectively. You'll be able to build capacity in yourself and others. And really, ultimately, what I'm interested in is achieving a meaningful mission. And the studies on music and how it impacts all regions of the brain are fascinating. If you've ever read anything about how music helps Alzheimer's patients or those with dementia who are late stage, who are unresponsive, they put their favorite music on and they literally come alive. They start talking. There's a measurable increase in eye contact, smooth smiling. And this can be seen on an MRI where all regions of the brain are lighting up at that moment. It literally reinvigorates the brain. So what I want to do is take this incredible power of music and make some of the biggest changes we want to make in our lives using it.

I love that, as you're saying that I have a personal experience that I actually haven't thought of in a very long time. My musical background, which I shared a lot of in a previous episode that I guessed it on and then brought over into the feed for this show, which I'll link up to in the show notes about the power of music and all of that. One of the things was that my grandfather had a giant grand piano and I would, when I was younger, like, lay underneath it as he was playing and watch his feet with the pedals, but also see some of the things hit and all of that. Well, he had Alzheimer's, late stage Alzheimer's, before he was being taken care of in a facility, he would be at home, he would forget other things and he would still kind of not always be there, but you sit him down in front of that piano, he would just tear it up. And it was so interesting to see how. Just ingrained. And part of him that was.

Yeah. Amazing. And part of it. What emotional state does it bring him to? That's what we're really looking at, because music is a direct impact on our emotions and helps us determine what we think about. So why not use this power to be able to make shifts emotionally and in thought patterns?

Yeah. In other words, what you're saying is, is we have these thought patterns, neurology, neurologically, I should say. We've had them since we were young, since we were children, as you were talking about, and whether they've changed or not due to Doing the work on ourselves, so to speak, or learning, maturing, et cetera. There's still lingering pieces probably, and yet that's metaphorically happening. And then literally now we can use literal music and the power of it and the deep seated ability for it to activate, regrow, or change pathways, I should say is a better way to put it. You know, somebody corrected me a while ago, I kept using the phrase muscle memory. And they're like, well, technically the brain is a muscle, but really it's not about your muscles, muscles in your body, it's about the neural pathways. And I said, thank you for correcting me. I am glad to look at it the right way moving forward.

Yeah. So I mean, think about the last time you got triggered by something. Something just got under your skin and it just irritated you and you either stewed about it internally, right. Or maybe you had an outburst about it as well. Like I just had a guy cut me off pretty harshly on the highway, right. And so these types of things, how we're responding and where it takes us can be what I call your eight lane highway to hell. Because it's almost like it takes off and you, you're already down the path of anger, frustration, all this and how long that lasts. You know, we want to feel our feelings because they give us information. But the problem becomes when it becomes a pattern in your life and not everybody can see these patterns. That's why I say, for me, I'm all about pattern recognition. And so we don't even have to go back to your childhood to understand where that comes from or what's going on there. Right. All we need to do is look at today and start to look at what's the sort of pattern that you notice in yourself that you'd like to shift. Right? And what's happening in that. And what emotional state are you finding yourself when you're in that eight lane highway to hell? And then how can we shift that? For some people, they can't even tell that they're just focused on the external world, like, well, his fault and he cut me off and all that stuff. But a lot of times I say, well, why is that happening to you in the first place? Like, let's look at what it is that has you focus on certain things. Like, I could have been cut off and be like, whatever. But for some reason in this day in particular, I think I was feeling frustrated. You know, my email server went down and I couldn't get it working and I wasn't getting emails from people. And you Know what headache that is? And then I get in the car and I drive and this guy cuts me off, right? It's, it's all leading to that, that piece. And so I think it's important to look at, well, how do we shift these? They just feel like they're second nature, but they're not actually. They're just grooved pathways that have been there since again, childhood. And we can shift them, meaning we can be at choice and build another eight lane super freeway to take. But that's hard to do normally. That's why change is hard. This is where music comes in. Because music will allow us to build that new eight lane highway much faster and more efficiently than if we were to try to do it without it. And so what I'm almost saying is music is like a turbo driver or you know, supercharger to be able to make the changes that you need to make or want to make in your life.

So if we are or are not aware of those default responses that happen, we should be, we should be trying to. And we may be getting dinged for it without even knowing it from other people's default responses to our default responses if we want to go that way with it. But once we start to notice and once we're aware, what's that first step look like in terms of obviously self awareness? We've identified a change, we've identified, you know, getting cut off and that being a trigger. What's that next step in terms of starting to rewire and create new pathways?

Yeah, and I want to outline to your listeners too. I outline the detailed seven steps in chapter 12 of the book. The first two chapters lay the groundwork for why our childhood shows up today in how we interact and why music is a powerful tool to shift behavior and how it impacts our brain. Then I give little mini stories. So there are nine of them about leaders. So you can get plenty of examples about how leaders discovered their pattern and then what they did to shift it and what playlists they use. And you can even download, got a QR code, you can download the actual playlist that they use. And the reason I have nine short stories is because one of these is probably going to resonate with you. And I wanted people to have choice and then I take you into what is that step by step process. So I'm not going to go into all of the details of it now, but I'll just kind of give you a highlight through an example. Right there was a leader. She was a chief marketing officer for a biotech company. And she kept getting some feedback that she was a little too insistent about inserting herself into key meetings and would get upset when she wasn't copied on certain emails. And that showed up in her 360 feedback. And you know, they're like, we can't keep her informed about every little thing. And to her point she's like, but I'm head of marketing and for me to be able to do my job, I need to know that. Well, like, that's where we go. We point to like. But they need to change, right? It's not me they need to change. Well, we don't have any power over them changing. All we have power was you changing. So let's see what we can do for that. So I had her look at what was the emotion. This is sort of the first step. First is recognize that there might be a pattern that you want to shift. And I call it, you get a belly full of something like, I don't want to have this experience anymore. The second step is to really understand when these types of things are happening. Your own eight lane highway to hell, what are you feeling in that moment? And really jot down those emotions for you. For this leader, it was feeling frustrated, it was feeling angry, and she really felt like she was basically being left out. So then I asked her, well, where else in your life does this show up where you're feeling angry and you're feeling left out? She said, well, when my husband, ex husband now takes the kids to the family retreat that I used to go to and I don't get to go to on the lake house anymore, yeah, I feel angry and I feel left out. Okay, where else did that show up? And we were able basically to trace it back. You know, it happened when she didn't get into the sorority that she wanted to get in. It happened back in childhood because her sister was the kind of blonde pretty one and she was vivacious one and got all the attention and nobody really paid attention to Deborah, right? She was the mousy one. And so to some degree she's been having this playlist when she could see that this isn't just about what's happening in this 360feedback. And let me tell you, it rarely is. I promise you what is occurring that is getting under your skin. The reason it's getting under your skin is because it's been a lifetime of experiencing this. Right? Get off the merry go round I say so for her, she chose a song that would best represent that to her as a Pattern interrupter. And what she chose was Adele's hello. So, you know, the song's like, hello, can you hear me? Like, pay attention to me. Pick up the phone. Right. And when she felt that familiar pattern start up or kick up, which wasn't included in email, she found out about something after the fact. She could go, oh, there's Adele again. And I had her really listen to that music and get in touch with, like, the feeling of, like, what does it feel like to be on the other? Like, where Adele was in that? Like, that's a horrible feeling. So just recognize that you've ignited that. And the next step then is to build the new neural pathway. Okay, what do I want to shift that to? And start practicing shifting that. And for her, we got really clear. What is it she wants to experience instead? She wanted to experience peace and appreciation. And she came up with a new playlist title called I Bring Peace and Appreciation. And so the literal part is she created a playlist of songs that helped her be in that emotional state, practice that emotional state, because the more you can practice it, the more you can access it when you really need it. And that's the pathway building. So we did all sorts of things, which I won't get into. There's information in the book about how she did that, but it really transformed how people treated her. But it first transformed how she responded to what was happening in the external world, and therefore people treated her differently as a result of that.

Interesting. It's a great story. And I think we all can kind of find some way of resonating. I'll use resonate, because that's almost like music, right? We're humming at the same vibration that the other person is, in other words. And so I can find myself in that. I can see myself there. I'm curious then, you know, what kind of. You talk about the Adele song. Is it just finding that one song to kind of acknowledge and. Or sit with or immerse yourself in that awareness? Is it just acknowledging it? Like, how far do you want to go once you have that self awareness and you have that first kind of song, so to speak, how long do you stay there and. Or do you keep that just to kind of acknowledge it before moving on to creating a full blown playlist? And I'm sure there's a whole bunch more going along with crafting the air quotes. Perfect playlist for you moving forward.

Yeah, I mean, what we want to do, it's a pattern interrupter, so you have to notice that you're on the eight lane highway to hell and take the first exit. And so this is a way for you to think about how you take the first exit on that. And it helps to recognize that it is a pattern, that this is a normal pathway that you've experienced many times before. I had her listen to that song, like just really get the groove of understand it. But it's not like you have to go play it or not unless you feel like that's what's needed to shift it. Now when I say all this, it's not to say, oh, feelings of anger or frustration, we should never feel them. That's not the case. And that's never gonna be the case. In fact, we wanna feel our feelings because they have important information. Usually, let's say anger, it lets us know that a boundary's been crossed so that we can take appropriate action to reestablish the boundary. So I'm not suggesting that we, we want to just not feel the feelings, we want to recognize them and take the appropriate action that needs to be taken. But what I am talking about is when you're stuck in a recurring pattern over and over and over and you keep experiencing the anger train. That's what I'm talking about. Right. So for that, if we want to shift the pattern and make it not feel like Groundhog Day, you know, yes. We need to spend some time with it and understand where it comes from and decide, is there a boundary that needs to be reset and how will I do that? But really, you want to build an alternative pie way.

Now I can't help but think that some people listening in are thinking, this sounds great, but also I feel like maybe there's some work here to be done in terms of professional therapy and counseling that would play a part in all of this. Can you speak to that?

Well, sure. A coach or therapist can help you with this without a doubt. Right. And I'm giving you some examples and I'm giving you ways in which you can do it. But I've had people who weren't working with that be able to kind of recognize. I think it's about your level of self development and growth. Right. Some people will be able to do it on their own, some people will need a coach to help them or a therapist to help them. You know, I wanted to make it accessible for anyone because I believe it is possible to recognize patterns and then to start to say, what do I want to create instead? I mean, that should be your ability to do so.

Now as far as getting to that point, like, what does crafting the playlist look like? Are we talking half an hour? Talking an hour? Because songs have various lengths. Like, I'm a fan of the movie High Fidelity, where he's talking about making the perfect mixtape to get a girl to like him. You want to start off here, and then you want to crank it up, but then you want to back off a little bit. And so, you know, I'm already kind of there with that mentality. But I'm curious what your approach is with this.

My approach is to choose at least 10 songs that you have that best represent the new emotional state that you want to be in. And based on that, what are songs that have you feel, whatever that is, is it gratitude? Is it joy, is it energized, is it confidence? And choose one that's your anchor song. And like I said, the old playlist, there was an anchor song. She also had a bunch of other songs on the old playlist. Just. It wasn't just Adele. Right. But she had her anchor song of Adele. And then you have the new song that's your anchor that you can kind of go to when you really need it, but you're also practicing, you know, not when you're in the ring, so to speak, practicing and listening to that music. And the thing about it is, the reason you want more songs is the brain likes variety. Right? And after a while, you're going to need to switch out some new songs, right? Because what you want to notice is, what is the music doing to you? Is it having you stay in that emotional state or practice to the best of your ability, practicing that emotional state? And if the songs are too tired now, then you got to find some that fit in. That's why we gave lots of examples and suggestions through this downloadable QR code for people to see what other people use. You're like, oh, yeah, that song, you know, I think that's helpful for people.

Do you think there's a place for multiple playlists? Because I believe that to go back to your original example of yourself and getting cut off in traffic and whatever that issue is and where that comes from, childhood, et cetera. To be blunt, we all have multiple issues. We all have multiple pathways that aren't probably the pathways we should have anymore in terms of being mature and handling the world and relationships well. So it seems like there's multiple opportunities for playlists that help with creating the new pathways we want to create.

Yeah, look, my view is change is hard enough. Choose one to start with and just focus on that and Once you've mastered that, then you can go on and create a new one. So I can give you an example of how I've done this since I've been doing this for a while in my own life. My old playlist was I am treated unfairly. And there were lots of examples in my life. And people would externally look at some of the things that happened and saying, yeah, and more this happened. It happened a little bit in my professional career, early stages, but more in my personal life. And I was able to shift using a playlist called I am empowered. And my anchor song was Bruno Mars 24 Karat Magic. It was like, you know, the song that would just be like, it's anything but being treated unfairly, right. And my old anchor, old playlist song was Jar of Hearts by Christina Perry. Right. Just sort of like really wounded. And so when I felt myself going back to the frustration and resentment and this sort of feeling unfairly, I knew as a coach that wasn't a loop that would serve me. I could use 24 karat magic to switch me out of it because I was kind of sick of going down that path, put it that way. And the more I use this is how I discovered this technique, by the way. The more I used it, the more I could interrupt that pattern that what I knew wasn't serving me. But it's like I was like, you can't help yourself. You know the feeling like you just can't help yourself. Like anytime, like, you know, I had some betrayal and anytime the name would come up, like I there I was going down that path again, right? And I'm like stops. So Bruno Mars and my empowered playlist was transformational and me being able to be a choice and not have to go down that path anymore. And once I was complete with that, one of the things that I started really exploring and I created a new place. And when I say complete with it, it's not that that old playlist, I could still access it at any time. When that person cut me off, I was accessing. I'm being treated unfairly again, right? Because it's. It's there, it ain't going away. But in the moment, I have the choice to quickly shift out of it using music, right? And catching myself. So when you built an equal sized 8 lane highway and you want to tackle other things, then go to the other things. And the next one for me was really about self love. And so I built this playlist called I am the love of my life. And it was all songs that really had me be enjoying appreciation for who I was. So that's an example of how you can start to move it. But I really encourage not to try to do too many at once, because, look, it's hard enough to do one. Let's get some wins.

Right? Right. Well, and I can't help but think, going back to the title of the book, it's called the Leaders Playlist. So as a leader taking agency in our own lives and whatever that means, we all have multiple roles at this point. We're all wearing tons of hats. It's ideal that we do this with ourselves. But I'm curious. Some people look at leadership and think, I'm leading others, and they're looking outward and they're noticing other people who are following pathways that they probably shouldn't be and, you know, maybe having default reactions to that, et cetera. I'm curious if, as a leader, noticing this in my teammates, how do I, you know, without forcing it on them, Give them the help that they need. Give them the space, give them the suggestions, bring them to the water and.

Help them drink by first during your own work, honestly, I mean, think about the dog whisperer, or if you've ever heard of equine therapy, where you literally go in the ring and you by your energy are able to shift the horse's energy. You by your energy. As you saw Caesar, he could shift that dog's energy. We're no different. We're also being human beings like that. So your only agency is often yourself and shifting your energy. So I would always was, why? It's the Leaders Playlist is like, start there, and then there's lots of different things you can do. I mean, that's why I'm in the field of leadership development. So it's, you know, how do you coach others? How do you use powerful questions? How do you delegate more effectively? How do you inspire? Those are all different workshops and modules that we offer. But this is a place where the leader needs to do their own work.

I think others are probably thinking, okay, this is a productivity podcast, and we measure things and we get to certain benchmarks. I'm curious if you've probably had people have said, how much is enough? How do I know I've gotten there or healed enough or whatever you want to call it. I mean, you gave the example. It never really fully goes away. What's an arrival point, so to speak, for us, it's going to be different for everybody, probably, right?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we. We never arrive. We're always A work in progress. Right. You know, I love this phrase, you'll never get it done. And, and you'll never, you know, at the end of the day it's what's the next level of growth? But to answer your question, you know, what was the new place you wanted to feel like? For instance, in Deborah, she wanted to feel more peace and appreciation. Is she feeling that more often in her life? Are you feeling more joy? Are you feeling less frustration? That's your indicator.

Yeah. So it's again, it plays back into self awareness, the original catalyst for even acknowledging and noticing that there was a path and change that needed to happen. It's a kind of a gut thing in a way, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. But you might also get people sharing, wow, you seem different. I've had so many people say, wow, your energy is so different now. Right. They'll give you feedback just like the dog gave the dog whisperer feedback. Or if you're in the ring with the horse, the horse is going to give you feedback exactly where you're placing your energy.

Well then, so I go back to again, you talk about the leader doing the work on themselves first and then they provide that energy to the others around them. And then obviously other than the leader giving a copy of the book, how do they foster like an environment where this kind of change and vulnerability and transparency can happen?

Well, certainly you could lead a discussion to share what the shift was for that leader. Right. What were they working on, how did they do it? And then if there's enough trust in the team, or maybe these are in one on one conversations, have the other person start to identify what's a pattern that you might want to shift and maybe you can think about it or if there's a good relationship, the leader can say, here's a pattern I notice that may be showing up for you. What do you notice about that? Right. And it's just a, let's have a dialogue about that. Sometimes we need other people to tell us that there's this pattern going on. Right. Sure. Your spouse could tell you plenty of the patterns that get in the way of your relationship. Right. And so sometimes we need a little bit of a mirror holding up. And that's also what a coach does.

Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned like having a 360 review. It's going to be based on, you know, you're not going around to strangers saying, hey, I noticed that this happens all the time with you. Even though you were just acquaintances. It's more of a, there's a relationship that has whatever the high enough level of trust to be able to feel like you can speak in. And if they don't have the self awareness yet, you can notice the pattern and kind of tactfully and carefully in a kind way, point it out without holding their head straight to it. Point to it and just lightly point to it enough that they feel like, you know, call attention to it. In other words.

Yeah, but notice what needed to be there as a precursor is the leader needing to create relational safety by first sharing and being vulnerable about their own patterns and what they've been working on to shift it. That opens the door for the other person to think about what their pattern may be.

So leading by example, another great attribute of a leader.

Exactly.

That's another pathway.

Look, we all see the patterns that everyone else is doing, right? We do. I'm sure any leader right now could tell like, you know, oh, he needs to shift this and he needs to shift this and, and what I say is you've gotta start with you because you won't be able to be powerful in helping the other person see those patterns without you first walking the talk.

Yeah, well, I know that we probably made people aware of this, maybe some for the first time and some are thinking, I want to dive deeper on this one. We can point them where to go and get the book, but also where to go to find out more about you and the work that you're working on and maybe even get a little bit more of the science and the leadership aspects of it on your site. So where can people find out more?

Yeah, they can just go to susandrum.com it's S U S A N D R U M M dot com. Yes, my last name is Drum. Like the instrument, only with two M's. All this music stuff, I don't know how that happened, but you can go there and there's a free quiz there that says what's your path to enlightened leadership? And it'll ask you. Jen, I think there's only like seven or eight questions there and it'll give you some idea of what the pattern may be for you. And again, seven or eight questions, it's a door opener, but it might show you what your superpower is and a potential liability of what that eight lane highway might look like for you.

Great, I will link that up in the show notes and everybody will go find that without having to remember it. Although it's not hard to forget. So Susan, it's been great. I can't wait to see kind of the impact that this approach will help people who honestly probably have been struggling with bad habits. And yet this is a true way to really dig underneath and inside of and get to the root cause and really do some profound change.

Yeah, that's what I'm here for. This is my mission, and I believe we are only scratching the surface of what music can do. So excited to bring this to your listeners and hope they start to take a deeper look and be empowered to make the changes that they want to make in their lives.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

Well, that's another podcast crossed off your Listening to Do list. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Susan Drumm and started to get an idea of what's going on your playlist or multiple playlists that you would like to create. Make sure to grab the book over at the show notes@beyondthetodolist.com or wherever you're listening to this. That's also where you can do me the favor of sharing this episode with somebody that you know needs to hear it. Hit that share button wherever you're listening to this. Or again over on the show notes@beyondthetodo list.com thank you so much for sharing. Thanks again for listening and I will see you next episode. Episode.

Sa.