The Art of Being Unmessablewith & Managing Emotions (feat. Josselyne Herman-Saccio)

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Hi, I'm Susan Drum and welcome to the Enlightened Executive where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help you get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness. This episode is brought to you by Meritage Leadership. At Meritage Leadership, we strengthen teams and and empower leaders to achieve high performance. Go to meritageleadership.com to learn more. My guest today is Jocelyn Herman Sacchio, a dear friend and former mentor to me, and I am excited to learn about her coaching in the art of being unmessable with no matter what life throws at you. Jocelyn led the forum and advanced course for the Landmark forum for over 30 years and is an entrepreneur, an author, coach, leader, and designer of transformational programs. Her mission is to empower people to live the life of their dreams now versus someday and to develop themselves to be unmessable with in the process. She's a former pop singer and songwriter and her group recorded that's what Love can do, which was a number one Billboard hit in America. She is author of several books including peace promises, 30 days to a More Peaceful Life and has appeared on dozens of media outlets including abc, NBC, CBS, and the Wall Street Journal. So welcome, Jocelyn.

It's so good to be with you.

Oh, my gosh, it's so good. Jocelyn was my advanced course leader in the landmark forum over 20 years ago. Yeah, how exciting to bring you on. And really was a catalyst for a lot of things in my life. And I mean that when I say a mentor. And I probably wouldn't be doing leadership development today if Jocelyn didn't have a influence in the direction of my life. What a treat to have you here.

It's a treat to be with you. And I, like, I could cry thinking that what you just said, that's just moving, you know, I'm so proud of you. I feel like, you know, even though I'm almost old enough to be your mother, but not really biologically maybe. I'm so proud of everything doing and.

The impact sister made me.

Don't go that far. Okay, older sister, I'll take it.

I want to hear all about your new coaching program that has been so powerful and what does it mean to be unmessable with. So let's start there.

You know, when people ask me that, I always say, well, let me tell you what it doesn't mean because there's a lot of confusion about it. Either people are like, oh, that's good, I want some of that, whatever it is. Or they go, what does it mean? So what, what it doesn't mean is being tough or being aggressive or having to like numb your feelings or get rid of certain people in your life, you know, it doesn't mean any of that. What being unmessable with is about is no matter what life throws at you, and life does throw stuff at us, you're able to be free, be expressed, fulfill your visions, your dreams, not get thrown off of who you really are. But stay in that world of creation versus reacting. That's what it means.

Yeah, I love how you make that distinction because maybe sometimes people hear unmesible with like, I'm going to go in there and you know, puff it out.

Like be forceful. Yeah, exactly.

No, what I hear from you is it's really not about so much about how you're manipulating the outside world, but how it's impacting you internally. Right. A bit more about that.

Well, if you look at like when you are messable with, I mean anybody, I now work with all sorts of people, but mostly really successful people, founders, entrepreneurs, everyone. I don't care how successful they are. They have areas where they're messable with, where they're limited, or they have a lid on what's possible. And if you look at those moments when you're thrown off your game, when you're thwarted, I call those being messable with. Right. It's a reaction. So something happens or somebody says something and you go into an automatic default reaction mode and then you're not even home anymore. You're just, you're just out to survive. Your brain is designed to survive. So in those moments your brain kicks in and you've got already grooved in behavior that you've been doing for decades, that just becomes like a automatic, you know, so that. Yeah. And one thing that people don't know is once they're in automatic, they're gone. There's no way to come back from that. So what I work with people on is first of all identifying those things that do mess with them, being able to catch them, like see what the red flags are that you're about to go down that road. Stop it, leave it to the side. It's not going away. Those brain things are grooved in. Right. And get to a space where they can create from nothing, not react to what's going on. Because most highly effective people are great reactors. They're great at it.

You have to be initially right to survive. And yes, all of what you said is bringing so true to me, it's what I call the eight lane highway to hell. It's the triggers, but it's the eight lane highway to hell. And that neural pathway has been grooved in so many times because it was your survival technique. But the thing is, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. There are times you're reacting, but you're not actually taking in all of the data that you possibly could. It's like, oh, this just looks very similar to what happened, what my mother did, or whatever it may be.

And you don't even see it in the moment. You think it's the person you're dealing with. It's very rarely, if you're in a reaction that strong, it is very rarely connected to what's actually happening.

Yes, Catching yourself is so important. I know we talked a little bit about the book and I'm using music to catch. Right. And other ways and building those new neural pathways. What are some examples of what people can do besides music to catch when they're messed with and get off of that eight lane highway?

Well, the first thing is you got to bring awareness to it because if you're not aware that you're reacting, you're just stuck in it. And then you react to your reaction and you try and fix your reaction and then you end up double whammy into the world of reaction. You're just further down that, that highway. Right. I like that highway to hell. I recently said to somebody, I have a way outta hell. And how I tell people to do it is first of all become aware of what are those things, what are those triggers and what are those red flags like? Some of them are physical. If you notice when you're deep into a reaction, you, there's a physical reaction that you have tightness in the chest. Maybe it could be you get red. You know, it might be that your thoughts start racing and you can't focus. So I have people distinguish those, what I call red flags so that they can catch it before they're too far down the road. Because once you're down that, it's almost impossible to really catch yourself and pull yourself back. It's so grooved, you know, and it's easier than to go down a road that isn't paved, that you have to cut the branches and, you know, pave the. Yeah. So it takes much more effort for your brain to go down another road. So the first thing is catch yourself before you go down too far. So people come up with whatever the 10, 12 red flags are that they can be hunting for, not just reacting to, but literally looking for okay, I'm about to go into a situation, let's say it's with my staff or your boss, whoever it is, you're going in with your staff and you know that you get triggered when they don't, you know you're about to go into a triggering event. So you be on the hunt for those red flags and then the critical thing is to have a go to other than the reaction because all you got is that emotional reaction or physical reaction, then you're stuck there. So I have people pre create a place to come from a new context to be in that situation in a way that gives them power and freedom and peace of mind or self expression or whatever they want to create so that they have another road to go down. It's not as paved, it's not as easy, it takes tremendous amount of discipline, but it's possible and I've seen it and I've done it. So it's, you know, completely doable.

Yes, for sure. So can you give us an example of pre creating context to come from in those circumstances? I always think if you have a client you can share or an example from you that would I can helpful.

Do either one, but I'll share one from my own life. Right. About my father in law. So I don't know if I ever shared this with you. I may have, I may not have, but I'm married almost 30 years and amazing man. He is amazing. And we've only had five fights in 30 years. So that's all from this methodology that I train people in. But his father was somewhat difficult. Okay, that's putting it lightly. I mean people called him little Napoleon. His name was Tommy and he was just this very gruff, kind of abrasive guy. Now I consider myself somebody who can get along with anybody. Right. So when I first met him, I was like, people would tell me, oh, you got to be careful about him. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, Ms. Possibility. Right. And I could not get our relationship to work. It was horrible. It was like every time I would try and create some connection with him, he'd come back with some attack. And it just really was like this guy was just impossible. Like there's maybe two people in the world that I can't create something possible with. Him and Hitler. That's how it was like for me. You know, I was just like, survived every family meeting to the point where we would hardly ever spend any family time with him because it was so difficult. So then I was in a transformative program myself and and all of a sudden I got present to how much I love Michael, my husband, and how great my life is because of him. Like he's the source of my great life. And then it occurred to me, like this total blind spot being revealed that Tommy was his father. Now that sounds very like.

Well, before you were looking at him as like this father in law thing that I have to do with.

Exactly. Like not even like the evil father in law, the meanie, you know? And everybody agreed. I mean, he didn't even talk to his three brothers. I mean, this is how grooved in that story was. And I realized, because I'm pretty logical and through the laws of syllogism, if Michael's the source of my great life and Tommy's his father, you could say Tommy's the source of my great life. And in that moment, everything altered. And I realized how stingy and judgmental I had been for 10 years. I was in a cold war with this man and my life is about peace on the planet. Except for him. It was like, nope, he is x'd out, right? Absurd. But it didn't seem absurd. It seemed completely justified. And when you're messable with, it all seems justified. You have the reasons, you have the justifications, you have the evidence. So anyway, I called him and I created pre created before I got on the phone because I knew I was about to walk into a triggering event. He was going to say something that was going to hook me, right? Mess with me. So I created being a loving and appreciative daughter in law, no matter what. Now this was literally like, I might as well been an alien because that was not how I had been being, you know, for 10 years. So I have this little flaccid muscle called loving and appreciative. And then I have this very strong muscle called defend yourself and survive at all costs. Right? And I called him and he goes, hello? That's how he sounded in my whole story about how mean he was. And I was like, it's Joss. He goes, who? I. I was like, you see, here's the muscle pulling me. You see, he's a jerk. He doesn't even know who I am. And then I was like, okay, wait a minute. I created something else. I'm not going to go here. So I got over here to loving and appreciative. And I apologized to him for being a creepy, stingy, judgmental daughter in law for 10 years. And I told him it was over and that what he could count on me for from that Moment on was being a loving and appreciative daughter in law, no matter what. And it was like silent. And all of a sudden he just started sharing with me. I could cry thinking about it. Just started sharing with me, like about his life and about how he misses his son because, you know, we barely talk to him at this point. Wow. And we created a delicious relationship. And about six years ago we got a phone call that he died in a plane crash. Which was shocking and upsetting. But the next moment, what was there was nothing. It was clean. He knew how much we loved him. We knew how much he loved us. But it did take three seconds of courage and my having pre created a whole other place to come from. But I will tell you, he didn't stop doing all that stuff that used to hook me. It just looked different inside of the new lens. I created the new context. Yes.

I so often say we think we see everything. We think we're chameleons. And the reality is we really don't. We. We put our focus upon attention based on patterns and that's what we see. But there's stuff behind our head we can't see.

Yeah.

And so if you can kind of recognize that no matter what perspective you have, is actually limited by your central and peripheral vision, recognize that just in life, you can't see behind my head and the back corners. That's the way we go through life. So there's some possibility that you can find that's in those blind spots to show up. What I think is so extraordinary about your story is that you apologized. A lot of people will say, like, well, what were you apologizing for? I don't have anything to apologize for. Where did you find like a reason to apologize?

Well, from what I had created being loving and appreciative. If I looked at the last 10 years, I was not that way. I was judgmental and I was standoffish and disconnected and it cost us our family. I mean, he hadn't even met my youngest child.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, I did that. It wasn't him, it was me. He did what he did. But I was the one who was messable with. And you can. Yeah, totally. Exactly. So if I'm in a reaction and now I'm fighting with whatever I think he's doing or how he's being, there's no possibility I'm stuck in the mud over there. But if I can create being loving and appreciative, no matter what he does or says, Listen, Mother Teresa would forgive soldiers who murdered and raped people in front of her. Like, I can't be great with him. That's ridiculous. Of course I could. It was my stubbornness. And even though I had all the evidence and all the agreement and I had to really shift a lot of people's relationship to the whole situation, after I had that breakthrough, I had to share with people because I talked trash about him with a lot of people.

Yep. So I had to change that whole story.

I had to change the whole story. It was worth it, though, because I wasn't about being right. I wanted to be happy.

And I could imagine that sometimes people hear this and they think, well, are you suggesting that I just stay and take it and get abused by someone like him if he was? And I'm not saying physically abusive.

No, of course not. That's a whole different situation.

Yeah. A mentally abusive. I'm just supposed to smile and put on a happy face and let them do that to me.

Well, the truth of the matter is, everything he would do before, like the bark rah rah, this, after I created this new context and this new possibility for me, it didn't occur as scary anymore. It was like he would go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'd go, you're just adorable. And then he'd just laugh. Whereas before I'd be like, see that? And, you know, I'd be all right about it and go into the. I need a break. I'm going to go take a walk. You know, like, whatever all that drama is, it was no longer there as a thing because I don't have control over how people are and I don't have control over what people do. But I have 100% say over who I am in the matter in response to it.

Love it. Because that is true self power and true enlightenment.

Ultimately true unmessable withness.

Yes. And as a leader and entrepreneurs and executives, there's certainly plenty that happens that I see of triggering events. In fact, I was having this conversation yesterday about how the whole field of leadership development has changed over the years. Where it used to be like, do X delegate this way and you have to do a performance review like this, and therefore you're. It was just very, I would say, externally focused. But ultimately, what we know now is leadership is about relationships and it's how you are showing up in those relationships and why, no wonder, in the work that you and I do, when it has to do with business, it translates into their personal life. I can't tell you how many clients are like, I had no idea the relationship with my family was gonna be so improved by the work that we did together.

Isn't it amazing, though?

It's because they're all relationships, right?

This is just messes with you in one area. It's gonna mess with you in every area. There's no siloing your life, really.

Yeah. I mean, ultimately you are who you are in everything you do, ultimately. True leadership, I believe, is building this muscle, this very muscle that you have really honed and crafted in coaching people to do so that you are being unmessable with in that context. So tell us a little bit more about that in action. You started down the path, you talk about, okay, you have to identify the red flags and you're creating this context for who you need to be. It sounded almost like in your example, it was like this, like that magic, right? Is it really like that?

For most people it was like that. But I had, you know, 25 years of exercising the muscle of my word, being able to create. And that's one of the critical elements here. Because if you're somebody who doesn't honor your word, like you say you're going to do things and then you don't do them, or you, you know, whatever it is, most people, it's a higher likelihood if, like, you promise me you're going to meet me, you're going to most likely do it. But most people have a weaker relationship to the word they give to themselves. And they don't even relate to it as a promise or a word. They just say, well, I'm just not going to fight with my mother anymore. But then they're in the heat of the moment and they go there because it doesn't exist for them. Like, I promise not to cheat on you kind of promise, you know, and people end up justifying not keeping their word based on what they gave their word to, not the word itself. And that's something I have been developing for 40 years now. And when I say I'm going to be loving and appreciate, I can actually rely on my muscle with that. I am not going to do that other thing anymore. That's why I've had five fights with my husband over 30 years. Not because he's so great. He is so great, but that's not.

Why, Trust me, that was one of the biggest, I would say there were so many lessons that were eye opening when I did landmark all those years ago, but the power of your word. And if you can't rely on your word, then you have nothing. You have no power in Life.

You're a.

And you have to understand that your word creates, it absolutely creates your world, your life. And I think getting really clear about how you use your word, one of the things that it's sort of interesting. I hear a lot of feedback around my reliability. And because I do a lot in the Enneagram type, sevens can tend to be unreliable. And I'm like, that is not who I will ever show up to be. And I think it was that distinction that came loud and clear through that exercise that we do to look at. Well, if you can't keep a promise to yourself, how are you ever going to keep it to someone else?

Well, it's almost the reverse. I hate to say it because most people are better at keeping promises to other people than they are to themselves. Like you showing up at a client's, you're not going to mess with that word. But you going to the gym five times a week, you'll find a justification. Well, I'm not feeling well. I'm jet lagged. You can buy yourself off much easier than you buy other people off. It's really remarkable because people, when they get that, when they actually start to be somebody who their word is like law in the universe, there's nothing they can create. Triple their business intimacy, their marriage, create a new business, have your staff be productive. One of the biggest things executives deal with is the lack of word with.

Their teams from even looking at values. Right. They create these company values, but they're not actually honoring them, they're not living them. And they're certainly not holding people accountable to honoring them. They're the foundation of their word, which is their values doesn't even live in reality. And employees feel that. It's like it's just a bunch of lip syrup.

Yeah. And that's. That talk is cheap. It's pretty much that's how people relate to word. It's cheap. But your word is your wand, you know, and if you want to create, it's going to happen in word. I created being loving and appreciative, but then my actions have to follow that word. If I don't have a word for my actions to follow, guess where my actions are going to come from? My reactions, my brain. That's the only. In lieu of having a word.

Yeah.

All you got is your emotions and your thoughts and your beliefs and your feelings and all that kind of stuff.

What is one thing that you believe would be super helpful for leaders to do tomorrow? I always like to ask this question because I think, how do I take these concepts and make them actionable. What's one easy thing? Maybe it's a difficult thing, I don't know that well.

It's suggest I can give you something to do. And I think it's simple. I don't know how easy it is, but it's definitely simple is you take your calendar and you literally create everything in your calendar from when you're showering, to when you're taking out the garbage, to when you're reading your emails to your meetings, all that stuff. Now you got a list of to dos in your calendar that you created. And now go to each one of them and ask yourself, why? Why am I doing this thing? What am I creating by going to the gym? I'm creating vitality or energy and rewrite the occasion as creating energy. Go to the gym. That has you be the author of the context and the content of your life.

You're putting a why to everything you do, which will then very clearly articulate those that are worth keep and those that are not.

Exactly. And it's a discipline. But I actually created a calendar workshop for my private clients because I had this conversation with every one of them. So I was like, I'm just going to do a video of this. And they found it so useful. Things that they had been procrastinating about or stuck with are like going like a rocket ship now.

I love that. And to the person that says it feels really rigid when you say, I gave my word on something, but circumstances change. We need to be flexible and adaptable. What do you say to that?

I say your calendar is your creation and it's etched in sand. There are things I move in my calendar, but if it's not there, I can't move it. If it's in my head, like, oh, I gotta do that thing tomorrow. Good luck with that. May the force be with you. Because your head is also where your reasons and your justifications. And you don't want to put your life in your head. You want to put your life out here in reality. I call that your calendar because where else does your life exist except in your calendar?

Yes. What about for promises that we make where we gave our word, but now circumstances have changed. What do you suggest there? Or we've created it, now we got to do it.

Well, that I call being in the prison of your own creation. It is always possible to honor your word. Maybe not always keep your word. There's a difference. You can revoke your word to somebody like, you know, I've done that with people. You know, when I represented actors or still represent actors, there are times where I would revoke my contract with them. I'm no longer going to be representing them for whatever reasons. Right. And then I deal with the impact of that revocation as a woman of honor. So I say, you know, how long do you need to get set up with someone else? Or how. What can I provide you so that this transition will be, you know, I deal with it with honor. So what I'm honoring is what I promised, and if I'm not going to keep it, I deal with it with honor.

It's the opposite of ghosting.

Yes, exactly. I know. Oh, my God. All my girlfriends that are single, I was like, oh. And he ghosted me. I'm like, what is that? I don't even know what that is. That sounds horrible. I know. I know.

Well, I wanted to also say, which I didn't mention, the first reason Jocelyn and I know each other is Jocelyn was my manager when I was an actor back in New York City all those years ago. But little did I know that acting was just going to be a segue into the powerful life that you have helped inspire me to create. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been such a pleasure. Where can people learn more about you and your work?

My website is theartofbeingunmessablewith.com so it's all there, all the programs I offer. There's free stuff there, there's courses, there's videos, all sorts of stuff.

And highly recommend you check it out if you like this episode. You're not going to want to miss my interview with Deb Crow, who believes leadership begins and ends with the heart. Let's all lead the way. Hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I'd like to point you to the next important step. Hit the subscribe button to get notified when we release new content. I'll see you on the next episode of the Enlightened Executive.