The Magic of Equine Coaching with Lucinda Vette

Foreign hi, I'm Susan Drum and welcome to the Enlightened Executive where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each episode we feature groundbreaking techniques and strategies to help you get the edge in personal and leadership effectiveness. This episode is brought to you by Meritage Leadership. At Meritage, we strengthen leaders and empower teams to achieve high performance. Go to meritageleadership.com to learn more. Today we're discussing equine coaching and how it can help leaders in both their personal and professional lives. And I'm thrilled to introduce my very special guest, Lucinda Vetti, the equine programming manager at the award winning Miraval Wellness Resort. Located in Tucson, Arizona. Set on 400 acres of majestic desert in the Santa Canalita Mountains, Miraval, Arizona is the original Miraval Resort and Spa and is globally recognized for transformative and immersive approach to well being. Lucinda is a lifelong horsewoman and former attorney, now at the helm of the resort's Purple Sage Ranch. And at the ranch, Lucinda works horses innate sensitivity and aptitude for social connection to facilitate insightful non verbal conversations between guests and their equine partners. So welcome Lucinda. It's great to have you here.

Oh, it is my pleasure. I'm so honored to be here, Susan, and so excited to be able to share something that I'm so passionate about on this forum. So thank you.

Yes, yes. And I had the incredible opportunity to work with you and experience this for myself just last weekend. So I'll be able to bring a perspective from a guest and what that is experience is like. But let's start out talking about what is equine coaching, because I'm sure there are some listeners out there that have never heard of this.

I do have a lot of people ask me what in the world could horses possibly bring to us in this, in this realm of coaching and developing human potential. So equine coaching or equine facilitated learning is really a partnership between a horse, a facilitator and whoever we're working with. But what we've learned is that horses are incredibly sensitive, intuitive, and actually have a high level of emotional intelligence, believe it or not. And so equine coaching is a modality that takes advantage of horses in their most natural state to help people get in touch with all kinds of information that we hold inside of ourselves that is often on a subconscious or below the level of consciousness.

Yes, I would say that was my experience. Exactly. And I think it's the way people are using horses in this modality is the horse actually reflects back to you the energy you're putting out there that you may not even realize. And it's quite eye opening because there's, you know, they're going to respond based on how you're showing up. And look, I've done a lot of deep work, but I've never had an animal in this way reflect back to me some of the things that maybe some things I knew, but other things I didn't know. And so maybe it's just really good to get into some examples of that. But before I get into the examples, in terms of how you're working with coaches, can you describe, I mean with horses, can you describe a little bit like what is that experience for a lot of guests in the ring?

Sure. So we have a couple of different ways we can do it. One way might be a group experience where we have maybe six people, four to six people, or one could be a one on one experience. Sometimes we work with horses in what's called a round pen or some kind of an arena. It is an enclosed area, but it's, it's big enough that the horse has a choice whether they want to be there or not. Sometimes we even work with horses. We take away all controls and we just work out in a large four or five acre area. And so we would do some kind of introduction to tell people what's going to be happening. And then generally we have people come in one by one and have an experience with the horse and we have a planned activity that they would do with the horse. The activity might be something that to be successful requires a certain type of energy. You know, what we learn from the horses is that there's kind of five different types of leadership energy, I guess you could say that we can bring to every, any given situation. So, so it could be the energy of the sentinel, the energy of the visionary, the energy of the nurturer, the energy of the dominant, believe it or not, or the energy of the predator. So we have an activity that is going to tap into one or maybe more of those energies. And so then we, we demonstrate what the activity will look like. We give instructions, but of course we can't demonstrate the really essential aspect of it, which is the energetic part that happens once somebody comes in the arena. And so with knowing in mind what type of energy the activity sort of would draw on, we sort of the person who's, who's interacting with the horse will just see what comes up with the horse when they do come in. And we do try to prepare people as much as possible. We're not Just throwing them in to see how do you do in a stressful situation? We try to prepare them as much as you can. Prepare people for an experience that's so unique that they've never done before. But then it's a lot of observing the person's body language for the facilitator and the horse. The horse is feeling what's happening with the person. Really, the partnership between the facilitator and the horse starts happening. Then because I'm, you know, as the coach or the facilitator, we have to learn to feel in a similar way that the horse does. And so through observation, through felt sense, through sensations in our bodies, through questions that we ask people, we start exploring what's happening, what's working, what's not working.

Yeah. And let's tie this to leadership a bit, because one of the activities that you had me do was have the horse walk with me, but not tugging on the horse or pulling the horse, but. But energetically, could I have the horse follow me so I'm the leader. Could I put out that energy? And initially, you know, I thought I had that, and the horse didn't move. Right. And so what it had me tap into was the feel, like a very slight feeling of frustration, like, okay, well, what do I do here? Like, I can't get the source to move, so what am I supposed to be doing? And if you really take the surrogate of that, I can't tell you how many leaders I've coached that, like, I. This little bit of frustration comes up of, like, I'm trying to get my team to complete X, Y and Z, and they're not showing up the way I need them to show up. Right. So there's. There's so many analogies. And what I found is when I shifted my energy, the horse actually walked with me. And that's what you get to learn and in this environment is what kind of energy are you putting out such that your team is responding in the way that they're responding? Because the horse is gonna very much show you, non verbally, what that energy looks like. And so that part was super fascinating for me. And I'm trying to think. It's so subtle too, what the shift was, but I remember part of that being getting really connected to what I was feeling and being present with the horse at the same time. So one of the things I learned, and you can feel free to. To share what. What you saw as the example, but I tend to focus a lot on the other. The other being the horse. Okay, well, what does the horse need? What do I need to do? Like, and I lose contact with myself and what am I feeling? And I didn't even acknowledge that I had frustration. And you had me sort of tap into that. And the reason that's important to recognize what are we. That is emotional intelligence. Being present with what you feel, being present with what other people feel. And what I got is if I'm not present with what I'm feeling in the moment, the horse is getting sort of a mixed signal in a way. But maybe you can share a little bit more or elaborate on that because I'm sure I'm not the first person that's had this experience.

Yeah, I mean that tends to be, I think a big, a big pillar in this work is emotional intelligence. And my observation is that many people and many, many very, very successful leaders, I work with a lot of, you know, C suite executives, high level, high, high level people, many people have gotten to where they are by suppressing emotions. Right. Or focusing on the positive. Right. Really just always kind of nurturing a sense of positive emotions, which that's not a wrong thing to do, but it sort of skips a level. And this is where the horses really teach us that we need to learn to, I mean, to really be clear in our energy, to have what's going on in our heads and what's going on in our energy in alignment. We need to learn how to become really aware of emotions in their most pure form. And so oftentimes the way I talk about that is that it, an emotion begins as a sensation in your body. And this is one of the things the horses help us tune into. And so a lot of people are suppressing emotions because by the time they feel a so called negative emotion, it's the intensification of the emotion. Right. Frustration turns into, you know, maybe it turns into rage or it turns into, you know, whatever it might turn into. But on that very, very subtle level, there's a subtle shift in energy that starts interfering with communication, which starts interfering with the non verbal communication that's so important. So where the horses come in is they kind of give us a model for emotional intelligence that I think is really unique because it's not just about identifying the emotion, it's also about getting the message behind the emotion. I think that's what helps shift the energy because once we sort of, to the point of, well, what I'm trying isn't working right. You, and that was something you were willing to admit. You couldn't get this 2500 pound horse to move away from the, to move to the area you wanted to go. But once we got to that, then I could say, well, that sounds like the definition of frustration. Right. Because it was very small. You weren't, you know, you weren't mad at the horse.

Yeah.

You weren't really frustrated with the horse. Right. So there sends. There's some resistance to acknowledging emotion. But what the horses teach us, if you can feel the emotion in its most pure form, which oftentimes is a subtle shift in the body, then you get the message behind the emotion. You never have to name the emotion, you never even have to state the emotion. If you can realize, oh, this isn't working. Oh, that's frustration, that opens up a whole lot of possibility for you. Then you change something in response. Well, what else can I try? Right? What else could, what else might work? Do I need some help? Whatever it is, it taps into a sense of curiosity about the emotion. They're not just expressing it or suppressing it, which are sort of the flip side of sort of the same dysfunctional coin. You're actually getting the information from the emotion, changing something in response. And then with the horses, we say, you go back to grazing, but basically you just get on with your day or you get on with the activity. And that applies to all kinds of emotions. We can start asking questions of them, but the first step is to be willing to feel the emotion. And I think a lot of people don't want to feel uncomfortable emotions.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And it was amazing, though, once I did sort of stop and acknowledge and feel where it was in my body. And again, it was so subtle. I didn't, you know, certainly there are far bigger things that can get frustrating than that. Like, I was curious, but also I wasn't. I was sort of like, okay, well, I tried this, I tried that. I don't know what else to do here. But the minute I acknowledged where I was, the horse started walking. That's the crazy thing.

And I think the horse just wanted.

Me to acknowledge the emotion that was there. Right.

Well, and I'm, you know, I think that there's, and there's even been some research on this. There's kind of like a shift in blood pressure, a shift in energy that happens when we stop, you know, because even if you're not purposely suppressing the emotion, it can just be sort of an autonomic response to what's happening. There can be a rise in blood pressure. And horses that are so tuned into that, you Know, the prey animal, they're very tuned into things like energy, but that shifts the energy, and then when you acknowledge it, you're like, it's there all of a sudden. And the other thing that can happen is that sometimes there's. The emotion is a little bit about the present moment and a little bit about the past, Right?

Yeah.

And there can be even some, like, deeper pain under that that's really causing the body to go into an autonomic state of survival, like fight or flight or even shut down on a very subtle level. But the horses tune into it.

Yeah, they feel that. Well, tell us some stories about other leaders. I've shared a little bit about my experience, but what type of breakthroughs have leaders had by doing this equine coaching?

Yeah, so one of my favorite. I think one of. Well, not favorite, but one. One that really stands out to me is I was working with a. An entrepreneur, very successful, also somebody who happened to be a neurobiologist, I think. Ph.D. from Harvard. I think he'd been a Rhodes scholar. Very, very intelligent person and much more of an expert in the nervous system than I am. And before we even started our session, he was very curious about, what are we going to be doing here? And when I started talking about the energy piece, he brought up a video of his research that he was doing on how subtle shifts in heart rate cause my movements in the head, when emotions shift, and how he thinks this is what horses are tuning into. So really dealing with an expert. And this is somebody who developed a technology in use for autistic children. And so I was. I mean, of course, I was, like, a little intimidated. I had to kind of find my inner courage and really trust what the horses and I have to share with him. And so once we got down to the horses and I started talking about what we're going to be doing, he got very, very interested, very excited to come in. And so it was the same activity that you did with the horse, where it's inviting the horse to leave, this time with no ropes, though, no halter and lead rope, just at liberty. And so he came in and he set an intention for himself, which was that he wanted to become friends. He wanted the horse to become a friend. And then I proceeded to watch him put a great deal of effort into making this horse his friend. Studying, I mean, using all his vast, vast intellect and knowledge, studying, looking for reactions in the horse and minute shifts, bringing all his expertise on the nervous system into the situation. And as I watched him, you know, I could really See that it was very disembodied, very disconnected from his body. And we paused and. And, you know, it just started to kind of hit me that this really brilliant man maybe used his intelligence to sort of hold people at bay. Right. The same thing that was such a gift also was his coping mechanism when he felt uncomfortable. It was something he used rather than actual connection. It was something that he used to soothe himself in uncomfortable situations.

Oh, my.

So I didn't. There's.

There's so many leaders, I can tell you, that do the same thing.

Yeah.

Using their intellect as a way to stay safe, as a way to create distance and protection.

Yes. And so, you know, we talked. He tried some different things, and then, you know, all of a sudden it just hit him. You know, he came up with these realizations, and he realized how the very thing that served him so well in some areas also became a barrier to things that he really wanted. Right. More connection, more ease with people. And then a lot of times with people, a lot of things come up about. It can come up about childhood, things that have happened, you know, and that oftentimes these things are things we learn in childhood. And so again with him, as soon as he started acknowledging this, the horse. I mean, the horse literally almost looked like he was falling asleep because this guy wasn't present. Right. He wasn't. And so as soon as he could start talking about this and having insights about it, the horse woke up and then just walked with him. Right. It just sort of happened and so really powerful, you know, And I. That. That's one of the. I mean, there's stories like this that happen every single day. You know, it's just never. It's always amazing to see what happens.

I mean, I can tell myself it was amazing to see what teachers these horses are. Right. And the things that you could learn about yourself just in terms of what comes up for you. And then you and I have that dialogue, and it's so congruent as well. We talked about this related to, you know, my field of study and the work around how our childhood wounds show up in our leadership. Right. And what happened to you is still showing up in very subtle ways and getting present to that pattern. And also that we are putting out energy all the time, whether we realize it or not. And everything has a vibration, and it's all about the density of the vibration, is how solid the matter is. The earth vibrates, right? We vibrate. This camera vibrates. Everything does. And so what we have to recognize is that our emotions also Sense vibrations out, and the horses with their incredible sensitivity are picking them up. So I often say, you know, understanding your playlist is what's the vibration you're putting out there? And people like, well, how do you determine that? And what I found is this is fascinating way to figure out what is that playlist you're putting out there? Because the horse is going to show you, you know.

Yes, yes. Well, and the thing about the horses is they. I mean, this is. This is what I observe. They respond to authenticity, right? They're going to be 100 honest about what it feels like to be with you, and they really respond to authenticity. So if you're feeling nervous, if you're feeling frustration, right. Acknowledging it is so powerful. Getting specific about it rather than just saying, I'm uncomfortable, so I'm gonna breathe my way through it, right? We. You can have all these tools that support you in shifting your vibration. And I think what the horses show is there's a really important step where we've gotta feel what we're feeling, understand it, get curious about it, maybe even have compassion for it, right? Not let it stop us, but not suppress it and push it down because it's still in there. No matter if you're. You make the choice to be positive or, you know, whatever it is. It's like we need to go through sometimes the challenging stuff, get the information from it in order to get to the other side, to that more kind of relational, connected state and the nervous system.

And we worked over the course of a couple days. So I would highly recommend that this is not just a one thing that you do need a couple of days. And I mean, amazing setting at Maraval. There's incredible spa, you know, workout activities, classes, hiking, all of the gorgeous, you know, but it really could be wonderful for a team retreat or for a cohort, you know, a group of CEOs, a forum, you know, I'm an EO YPO form to go do this type of work together because you're learning and growing together. You're also restoring, you know, with all the. With all the healthy eating and. And different types of spa treatments and wellness. But. But I was also struck by. And you gave me some suggestions around really interesting things I hadn't done before in working with energy with some other types of practitioners that were super valuable for me. So I find like this type of work. But when you couple it with the equine, you'll keep learning about not just in the ring, but as the day progresses. And then when you go back in, you know, you're. You're working and shifting something else.

Yes. And I think a lot of people do find that they start seeing all of the offerings we have here seem to sort of miraculously support each other. Right. So you do, you do one thing and then something comes up, and it comes up a little different way with the horses, and it comes up a little different way somewhere else. So it is a fantastic place to come with a cohort or a group or a team and have a very holistic approach to restoration, leadership, well being.

Yes, yes. Well, what's one thing that leaders could try today, tomorrow, to get an experience or at least become more present to the type of things that you're teaching?

Well, I think that I always would say if you can't, you know, if you don't have horses to work with, starting a mindfulness practice, some kind of meditation practice, is incredibly powerful. But even just sort of shifting the. Shifting your belief system around emotions, if or. Or even understanding what your belief system is around them, and maybe even starting to notice what's going on in your body, because really, I think the body is the connector between the thinking brain and our emotions. Starting to develop some practices around connecting with your body, leaning into things that are uncomfortable. And I think developing a mindfulness practice is incredibly powerful thing to do, even in short, short spurts of it.

Yeah, yeah. You started each of our sessions with a body scan and just almost speaking out loud. What are the sensations? I'm feeling my shoulders tight, my hat, I can feel it on my head. I've got a little bit of tightness in my jaw, that type of thing. And just scanning the whole body to notice what's going on and maybe choosing one area to focus on and notice if there's any emotion that you're picking up related to that body sensation. Most of the time, I'm just racing from one thing to the next. I'm not paying that level. So when you say mindfulness, I think that very specific practice, and I've been starting to do that right before my meditation or after just to check in and say, what does my body have to say? Because so often the mind is just running everything, but the body has wisdom too. And if we're not taking the time to access it, we're losing important data.

Yeah. And I'm really glad you brought that up, because the body scan is also. Once you sort of start getting a little bit accomplished at it, you can do it very, very quickly and you can start to discern if energy is yours. Stuff our emotions are yours, or if it's somebody else's. Right. Or you go into a meeting and you notice a shift and there can be a lot of information there for you. So that is a. That's a powerful practice.

Well, I feel so blessed to have the opportunity to get to work with you over the weekend. So thank you for everything that you shared with me and the wisdom and excited to just bring this more out into the world for people to experience. Where can people learn more about you and your work?

Well, they can go to the Miraval, Arizona website that you find specialist here. We've got a video that tells a little bit about it. I also have a TEDx talk that I think kind of describes the work pretty well. That's called Lessons from Listening to Horses. And of course, come to Mirabel and experience it.

If, if you're feeling overwhelmed and you need a break, I'm telling you, go spend a couple days. You'll come out.

Yeah.

You'll come out with awareness and some important, I think, permanent shifts and for the better, so. Well, thank you so much for your time. Anyway, I could talk to you for another hour.

Yeah.

And I'm glad we got a chance to experience it first together and then get a chance to speak about it live with the rest of our community.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Susan. Just appreciate you and what a pleasure to be here and to know you. Thanks.

Oh, thank you. And if you like this episode, you're not going to want to miss my interview with Josh Linkner, who believes that it's in our nature as human beings to be creative. And the single biggest roadblock to creativity is fear. Let's lead the way. Hope you enjoyed today's episode and I'd like to point you to the next important step. Hit the subscribe button to get notified when we release new content. I'll see you on the next episode of the Enlightened Executive. Sam.