The Midlife Remix: Petra Kolber on Resilience, Reinvention & Leading with Joy

They say when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. But what if life gives you cancer twice? Today's guest just didn't survive. She remixed her entire life from bestselling author to DJ to VP of mindset. She's redefining what midlife looks like and what's possible when you stop waiting and start living. Hi, I'm Susan Drumm, and this is The Enlightened Executive, where your personal evolution sparks your leadership evolution. Each week we spotlight cutting-edge strategies to help leaders and entrepreneurs grow in leadership and life. Today we're talking about how to turn life's hardest moments into powerful new beginnings. My guest is Petra Kolber, author of The Perfection Detox, a keynote speaker, a positive psychology coach who spent over 30 years helping people move past self-doubt Doubt and Into Joy. A two-time cancer survivor, Petra has reinvented herself again and again, from fitness icon to DJ to mindset leader, and now helps ambitious achievers in their midlife rewrite their next chapter with confidence and purpose. Petra, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Susan. It is so good to be here with you.

Wow, what a journey you have had. Can you just rewind, take us back, tell us a little bit about how you've been able to reinvent yourself so many times?

Well, how long do we have? So I'll see how far I go back. I think, you know, for me, Susan, the interesting thing is like sometimes reinvention comes out of choice and sometimes it gets thrown at you out of necessity. Yeah. So much of my, my early, early years I was in the fitness world and known as an expert, a thought leader, got— traveled all around the world, was so blessed, had an incredible career, an unusual career to be able to make really good income doing something that you loved. And I was— it was in the heyday of fitness. So I— that was like my foundation. And the reason I bring that up is because during that time I was so successful and I suffered so badly from anxiety and panic attacks. Never feeling like I measured up. So that was an ongoing journey that kind of came with me for my next pivot. So as with anything, with any company, I worked with Reebok for many years. You know, the new faces come in. I had a great career with them for like 10 years, but one of the best pieces of advice is Susan, I got was don't ever give up your own name for the sake of a brand. So I knew early enough when I was doing all these conferences as what I was, when Reebok brought me in, I did a Reebok session, sponsored session, I would also ask the conference, could I do one under my own name? And they're like, yeah, but we're not gonna pay you because Reebok's paying you. I said, fine, not a worry. So I knew early enough to keep my own name. So when Reebok disappeared, I had enough people knew of Petra, not Reebok who's featuring Petra. So I was able to parlay that 10-year foundation into my own fitness career for like another decade.

Wow.

Long story short, that was super successful. And so part of that pivot was when I was growing up in the, in the fitness world, it was all about dance choreography and just having fun. And then when it came, which I loved, which I truly loved, it was in alignment with what I love to teach. Then it started moving into the HIIT and the high intensity stuff and I just didn't like it. So what I did, I learned early, I tried to teach and lead in a way that I thought what the audience wanted.

Okay.

Did not end well because I, I, there was people that could do that so much better than me and enjoyed it. And so I was showing up kind of forcing myself to be a leader, a teacher, uh, an authority on something that I didn't even really believe in. So that was a little bit of a lesson. Anyway, fast forward, I, then met what I thought was gonna be my forever relationship. This was a life pivot that was kind of thrown at me and I moved. I literally gave up my career because this person had a beautiful child. And so I want, of course, wanted to be a perfect stepmom. And all my work was on the weekend. So I literally gave up my career. Well, that suddenly ended 5 years later. The forever wasn't quite as forever in his, his, in his memory. So I ended up back in New York. Single without a career. Mm-hmm. When I had left my career, I was making a very good income. When I moved back to New York, in my bank account that year, Susan, I had made $10,000. I had gone from making quarter of a million when I left the industry to $10,000. So I'm like, okay, I need to reinvent. And so I had a choice.

Yeah.

Do I go back to an industry that knows me? And loves me, but I'm now 50, or do I do something new? And I thought, okay, I have enough runway, I have enough finances. So I went back to school for positive psychology. Game changing, changed my life because all of a sudden I realized I'd been studying the neck down for 30 years. But really what matters is what goes on between the ears. Right, right. You can have the best body, the best workout, but if you're not enjoying yourself or loving yourself, or if you're beating yourself up, what's the point? So from that pivot, I decided to give up sweating for a living and move into speaking for a living. I got really lucky that, um, I also, through, through the breakup, I did get a great book agent. So I started just reinventing myself. I'm like, okay, I want to write, I want to speak. It's being creative in a different way. So that moved me into the world of really, uh, solo entrepreneurship without a foundation of 30 years of fitness. Again, another leap forward. COVID happened, everything shut down in New York, and I thought, you know, I'm just, I've had this hankering to go to Europe. So I gave, sold everything, moved to Europe for 10 months. And this is where things get interesting. Like if you're listening right now and you're like, I've got all these different parts of my life and I feel like I want to reinvent myself, but none of it makes sense. I guarantee you all the strengths that you have from your past will somehow come together where you are the only person that is right for this position. And it so happened, Susan, a friend of mine said, hey, I'm with this big fitness company. We're rebranding the entire company. We're moving out of trying to sell a six-pack into something that they were calling Health Esteem at the time. And because you wrote the book, The Perfection Detox, because you had 30 years of experience in fitness, because you've moved into speaking, because you've done your own programs, it started like, I just want you to come onto the call and have our CEO basically pick your brain for 30 minutes. I'm like, Okay, you need to pay me for this, but let's see how much information he picks out of my brain and then we can decide a number. So I got on the call, no makeup, just like, hey, what do you need to know? And at the end of that call, Susan, they had created a VP title for me, offering me a huge salary with benefits. And I ended up running into corporate for the first time at 59.

Wow. Oh my God.

And if you had said, Petra, you're gonna go into corporate at 59, I'd have said, you're out of your mind. I have no experience in that world. But I had the right experience experience for that particular opportunity.

Yeah, and that was a beautiful story. Oh yeah, like pulling all these pieces together, you know. And we share some things in common where more of mine happened early in my career where I was bouncing around. And, you know, I went to law school, but that wasn't quite the fit. And then I went to consulting, and I liked consulting for the variety, but I didn't like the type of consulting I was doing, which was just pure strategy work. Then I go to business development and marketing at NBC thinking, "Oh, well, if I'm in an entertainment company, that'll be interesting and glamorous." But then I found, like, that wasn't the right fit. Then I went and got a master's in acting, like—

Of course you did.

5 years after law school. And people are like, "What are you doing?" And I'm like, "I don't know, but I don't like— Like, I am just burnt out after 5 whole years of working, and I don't like— I don't find the passion in what I'm doing, so I just need to, like, reignite. Well, after that, I kept thinking, there's got to be a way what I'm learning in acting I can bring back to business, right? Things about your— how to be authentic, how to show up, like, really powerfully, dealing with that inner critic inside your head, like, all things that actors need to work with. And this was right now 25 years ago. And when I realized Then I got into consulting, but in leadership development. So that started my whole career that I've been doing, you know, for almost 25 years now at, at this stage. But I did all those things that I did match perfectly with the type of work I do today.

Yeah.

And I, and that is just an amazing story to just follow your intuition and your gut on that.

Yeah. And I think Susan, so for so many people, right? If they're like, they wanting to reinvent themselves, they think they're starting from scratch and what they do, they underestimate all the strengths and the skills that they've learned in all these other areas of our life, all these facets. And because they think they are starting something new, we get overwhelmed. The inner critic steps up. We are like, oh, I am too old to start this, or who am I? When in reality, you are not starting from scratch. You probably are like 20% away from everything that you need for this next idea. And the idea that also that you said, Susan, is like, I do not know. I think we misinterpret what I do not know means. I think when we say, I do not know what to do next, or I feel so overwhelmed, we take we take that as a signal that we should stop, that we're not in the right place, that this isn't for me, this is too big of a dream. Where in reality, I don't know, it's such a great place if you can bring the acting skills to it, right? The improv. I'd say yes, and, and then we'll figure it out. So for me especially, you know, I'm, you know, I'm in my 60s now and I'm just getting started. But if you put a number on it, only you get to decide. If you're too old or it's too late. And I think we often misinterpret the signals, like feeling like an imposter, feeling like a fraud. Of course you're gonna feel like a fraud, an imposter, 'cause you've never done this thing before.

You know?

I'd be worried if you didn't feel like an imposter. That means they're like, okay, we got narcissist incoming, incoming. But, you know, it's this idea that so many of us don't know. And this is why I love this conversation that we're having, but we don't talk about the not knowing. We show up when we feel like we've got it all figured out. Nothing good happens in perfect. Nothing— no interesting story comes from the perfect moments.

No, no, for sure. And also this thing around you're never too old to reinvent yourself. Like, I love, you know, in your career, you're continuing to do that. I always tell the story when people say, well, I'm— you know, it's too late for me, or I'm— I said, my mother, who wanted to get a college degree but ended up, you know, back in the day, getting maybe a year's worth and then went and raised kids. Well, she went back to school, I think it was around 56, and graduated with her degree at 60. And, you know, and then started a career in journalism. So why, why not, right? Um, so tell me a little bit about how the cancer factored into some of these twists and turns in your life and how you navigated that.

Ooh, good question. It's so interesting you ask about that 'cause it feels like almost like another lifetime. Mm-hmm. And that's a shame because I just had a good friend of mine, unfortunately diagnosed with a very aggressive type of cancer. And it's interesting 'cause the first cancer I had, um, I always say I'm a perfectionist, I'm an overachiever, I have to get 2. Um, the first one I had was a melanoma, which was on my foot, which was highly unusual. And it was at the height of my fitness career. Like anywhere else you could have it maybe just cut out and it was, They had to go into an inch into my foot. So I was out of commission. I was lucky for the fact that I had a great Reebok contract. It made a good story for them. You know, they weren't gonna let me go. So that was one thing. That was like, you know, you have it, we know what to do with it. That was the first one. And it kind of cut it out, made me pause for a little bit, 'cause I was, you know, you don't— I was taking my fitness for granted. I was young, I was all over the place, and all of a sudden I now can't work. The second cancer I had was Hodgkin's lymphoma. And the reason I share that, the first one is because I was feeling super tired and I had this lump on my neck. So they did a biopsy and I really was not thinking anything. I just, I just thought nothing. And the concern was the biopsy came back like, yes, you have cancer, but we are not quite sure what it is. They are like, we hope it is Hodgkin's lymphoma. Their fear was that the melanoma had traveled.

Oh, wow. Okay.

But we had, 2 different situations there, right? And so for 2 weeks, I did not know which scenario. And the reason I shared this is because I remember vividly— I need to bring this into a talk sometime because I do— just reminded me. I remember vividly when we— I got the news, we don't know what it is. Not once was I worrying about my size or what my accolades or what I had. It— this thing came into my voice, my head. It said, I just wanna live long enough to know I could love in the way I know I have the capacity to love.

Hmm.

Don't know where that came from, but anyway, it was Hodgkin's lymphoma. Barely got any sympathy from my doctors. Like, we got the treatment, you're gonna be fine. I was like, wait a minute, I want a little bit of sympathy. But I think what happened during that time, I lost all my hair. I was at the height of my fitness career. Reebok was very gracious. They, I did photo shoots with a wig. It was, you know, it was part of the story. I did some of my best living during that time. I was fearless, 'cause I had just faced the worst-case scenario. I might not have been here. So I had a bald head, I was a badass. I mean, I just— And I had suffered with chronic anxiety and panic attacks. I remember during that time, Gone. They came back, but during that time, gone. Because what was— what was I— what did I have to be anxious about? And I wish, listening and speaking to everyone now, I wish that I could keep that. I could have kept that fearlessness— is that a word? The further I got away from my cancer diagnosis. So, you know, you really, you really embrace life and you hold on to it and you just go for everything.

Fascinating.

But then 5 years out, 10 years out, 50, then you kind of forget about it.

Once you— so one would think that you're going through cancer, that's when the height of the anxiety and the fear would be as much. Why was it the opposite for you? And why did it come back?

Such— oh, that's— you're the first person to ever ask that. I think during my treatments, I never questioned I wasn't going to be okay. Never ever questioned it. Once I knew what it was and we knew I had a high prognosis, they think, well, this is, we can't say you're going to be fine because I'm like, I'm going to be fine. I'm not a statistic. I didn't go on any of the message boards. I went to several of the cancer support groups. I'm like, oh, this is not for me. They're all, they've become, and this is not to judge anyone, but I was not defined by my cancer. I was actually emboldened by it. It sucked. Yeah. I had nausea, but I was still presenting. I was still teaching. I think because I knew I was going to be okay. I had a strong support group. And I think I felt like I did not have to prove anything. There was like a year there, I do not have to prove my worth. I have got cancer. I am showing up. That is good enough. Good enough. Yeah. I am showing up for the conferences. And I think people, there was an— this is gonna sound weird, and I hope it doesn't— it's not taken the wrong way. There was this strange admiration for how I was showing up. So I almost felt like I could be a role model in a really positive way, not from an egoic place, but from a really authentic way that had nothing to do with what I looked like or how perfect I was on stage or how I had to say the right things. All of a sudden, I'm like, I just need to show up and be proof that you can do, you can have a hard time and still show up. And then as I kind of went back to normal, all the doubts started to creep back in like, oh, am I looking good enough? Am I saying the right things? This is pre, this is before I went back to positive psychology and I never had an understanding of the power of my thoughts or the old stories. And I had been in therapy for 7 years trying to, this is post-cancer, maybe like 10 years post-cancer. And I had literally 7 years trying to unravel this. Why am I turning down work because I don't think I'm perfect enough? I'm just getting ready for a talk right now, and the whole opening is me turning down CBS, The View, The Today Show, because I thought I— this is ridiculous. I turned it down because I didn't think I was perfect enough. And in therapy, not once was I asked about my strengths. It was like, so what's broken? Let's fix it. And then when I went back to school for positive psychology, I recognized the power of our thoughts and also the power that we have to reframe the stories we tell ourselves. That was game-changing for me.

Yeah.

So I think, yeah, that was a, that's a really great question.

And here's what I heard in your story that's really powerful. The shift that occurred when you were emboldened during your cancer You know what I heard in that? You really were admiring yourself for what you were doing. And as you got further and further away from the cancer, my sense is you started looking externally for that admiration again. And so there's just something like what you're looking for externally, you got to give to you.

I just feel like I just had a therapy session with you. That's powerful. You know, I think you're absolutely right. And one of the questions I offer to people, it is so interesting you said that, Susan, I am going to have to pull you into my talk next week. I ask them to go back to their past and think of something that they feel proud of, a situation. And I often bring up my cancer story, but never really tied that in that I was really proud of myself and I gave myself that self-acceptance. As you said, not once looking for the external. Approval.

Yeah. You're like, I know I'm— I've got cancer and I'm still doing this. Like, I'm a rock star, right? And there was not any question.

Yeah.

And then those doubts came in later on. And so interesting. Just a fascinating journey you've been on. So tell us a little bit about what you sort of teach now, right?

Yeah.

What is— what is most important?

Well, I'm actually speaking to a group of leaders in about a about 2 months. For me, it's really all about, it's like what you talk about, conscious leadership. It's, we're not there to prove ourselves. We're there to bring the best out in others. How can we be leaders? Whether you're leading yourself, whether you're leading your children, your family, a team of 5 or a team of 500. And especially, this is changing for me too, what I'm gonna be teaching. Especially with everything that's happening in the AI world. We can't ignore that. It's just ramping up faster and faster and faster. People are afraid of losing their jobs and, and I have no control over that. But I think the thing that we will have to be a really conscious leader these days, bringing your complete presence into every situation, every time you're in front of someone trying to inspire them to be the best version of themselves. It cannot be about us. It has to be about the people we want to uplift, whether it's our team to deliver the best work for the company, or, um, if it's ourselves. So for me, what I, I always teach the principles that I learned from positive psychology. There's a, there's an acronym called PERMA, um, called the P stands for positive emotion, E is engagement, R is for relationships, M is for meaning, and A is for accomplishment. And then there's a silent H for health because if you don't have your health, You have nothing.

Yes.

Oh yes. So, and I really kind of build on those pillars. Like if you can create a team around you, uh, create, not a team around, create an environment for the team around you to flourish and thrive in these 5 areas, you're gonna be an incredibly conscious leader and one that's leading to help others be their best leader. You know, it cannot be from control.

Yeah.

It cannot be for perfectionism. It cannot be that it's my way or the highway. It's how can we, And this is where the self-leadership comes in. Because if I don't trust myself, if I'm always looking for external validation that I'm the perfect leader or the good leader, we are gonna always be working from a fear-based leadership. We're gonna be waiting to be found out. So when we can come from a heart sense, it sounds really cliché, but it's so true. When you can lead from your heart versus your mind, I think that your mind is the decision maker. Very, very important in most, in a lot of situations. But if your heart can be the catalyst to hold that space without control. Of course, you need parameters and boundaries to get the job across the finish line. But I think if we try to— for me right now, what I think I'm gonna be leaning heavily into is this idea of complete presence and bringing the humanity into leadership. Because man, that is being stripped away. And also being a leader that they can, they can trust, 100% of the time because this world is so unsteady. So the more the, the whirlwind happens around us, the more of an anchor. I think leaders are going to be required to be anchors of presence, of connection, connection, empathy. Yeah. And really creating a space for people to be human, to bring the humanity into work because I think people are questioning themselves. You can't compete with a machine. So I'm kind of struggling a little bit because every time I, have a conversation about that. It's changed. Well, I would tell you today from 2 weeks ago, I'm like, wow.

Well, I mean, and, and the way leaders used to lead, they could do forward planning of thinking through, right? How do you do that when things change so rapidly?

Yeah.

And so looking at some of these key pieces of what leadership truly is, it's creating the capacity to produce the outcomes you want through others, not yourself, through others. So if you don't have a sort of an other-centric viewpoint about how can I catalyze the best out of this team, and if you need more like, I need it for myself to look good, well, you know, then you're stuck in individual contributor land and not really catalyzing the team to produce the most incredible results. I wanted to go back though to your, to the acronym. Tell me, can you just say a little bit about each of these elements and what you think's important for leaders to know?

Yeah, absolutely. So this was work by Martin Seligman, who I consider the godfather of positive psychology.

Yes.

And for people that don't know what it is, it's really about how, what, what do we need to build upon to create a place where we can flourish and thrive versus surviving? And the difference being is that with positive psychology, I want, you know, and with anything, it can, the pendulum can swing too. Too far. This is not about rose-colored glasses, but it's about working from a foundation of what is working in your life. So if you're listening right now, yeah, acknowledging all that is good doesn't mean that there's not work to do and things you wanna not strengthen. So the P is for positive emotion. How can you create an environment that allow people to, and it's not, are you happy or sad? Or not, are they fully engaged or completely disengaged? What environment can you create for your team where they are? 1% more joyful at, you know, the end of the year, 1% more engaged. Like in small doses, what can you do? And a lot of that is also developing our critical eye and our critical ability not to ignore what needs to be strengthened. Absolutely. But seek more of what is working in your team. Like, and call it out. Let the, yeah. Don't be afraid to call out all the good in your team versus trying to poke holes in what, you know, there's gonna be things to be fixed. Yeah. But when you can work from people's strengths, highlight that. They're gonna be much more likely to take risks, to show up, to ask questions, cuz they're bringing their best self to work, not just what they think is what you want. So that's P is for positive emotion. How can you create more positive emotion? E is for engagement. Oh my goodness. Getting off your phone, like how engaged is your team? And as we know, being a disengaged team costs billions of dollars. So, and not just showing up, but showing up with your heart, being fully present as a leader. Going into meetings without your phone. If you are talking to someone face-to-face, not having your phone in your hand, not even having it turned upside down on your desk, get it out of sight so people in front of you feel that you are engaged with them. There's not something more important. Being engaged in your own life as a leader, doing the work, finding things that excite you, that, you know, that love of curiosity, being fully engaged versus is on our screen scrolling, right?

Yeah. Yes.

Um, and that kind of throws into our relationships, the relationships you have with your team, the relationships you have with your family. And I often say the most important relationship you'll ever have is the one you have with yourself.

Because if you can't, if you don't like yourself, we just talked about that with you.

Truly. But we don't, we as, as leaders, sometimes we feel like we have to fix everything else. Yeah. And the last person we look at is ourselves.

But that's the only point of control we truly have.

I know. I know. So that's the R. So you got positive emotion, engagement, relationships. M is for meaning. You know, maybe you've heard like job crafting. You know, some of us, we do a job, we have a job, a career, or a calling. You know, I think you and I are lucky we have a career that's turned into a calling. Yes. I've, I've never had, oh, I have, I have had a job. Job once. I was, uh, running a— I was opening up a gym. One, that was a job for me. I thought it was going to be a career, a calling. It was a nightmare. It was a J-O-B. It was like I couldn't wait, I couldn't wait to get out of there. But, um, it's finding meaning. And not all of us are blessed to have a job that we love, and we can find meaning. How can we craft? Because if you're in work, you know, 8 hours a day, how How can you craft more meaning into the work environment? How can you as a leader create, align people's values, what's important to them, to the work that you are delegating to them? How can you make this— maybe for some of them it is a job, but how can you make it more meaningful to them? And sometimes it takes— have, sit down and ask people because that's the other thing with leadership, especially now. I think the biggest mistake we feel we do or we make is thinking that we have to know everything. You can't. Yeah. And can you create an environment where people feel safe saying, hey, I'm doing this, I don't feel it's the best use of my skillset, this, and just have an open dialogue. You're not gonna be able to predict everything.

Or have like a conversation about motivation. Like, yes. You know, what, what motivates you? What drives you? Yes. How, what's making you wanna jump outta bed in the morning for the work you're doing? What's making you wanna press the snooze button? So, —kind of think about, well, what do I need to do as a leader to adjust that? Yeah.

And just that one question, you've now brought in connection and empathy and engagement and relationships. You're just tying it all together, that you care. You're a conscious leader. And then last one is A, accomplishment, that you brought up. I think we don't— we can't reward everybody for everything. But it's really celebrating people in the moment. And then celebrating the group as a whole. And allowing people to sit and savor the wins. Yeah. Pride is a really positive emotion. And I think especially as women, we have— well, no, and then I'm female and I grew up in England where pride was frowned upon. You better not say that you have big dreams or you think you did well. I mean, people literally, be horrified. But having a sense of pride is often when you go through hard times, whether it's a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a job, or— we grow through the hard times and we should feel pride. So it's also creating, um, and savoring those moments in our past, and hopefully in our future too, yeah, that make us feel alive and really like we showed up. Yeah.

And I almost wonder, you know, we do this at my— on my team is take some time in your next team meeting, like, Who'd like to give someone a shout out? Right? And just give them time, other people to acknowledge. And it's amazing. There's stuff going on I didn't know about, and that's amazing that someone else— I really want to tell Corey about how amazing she's been in this way. Right? Yes. So I think that is so powerful. Well, tell us, what's one thing— that's one thing I'm bringing, but what's one thing that you would suggest that leaders do tomorrow?

I think it's wherever we can. We're human. It's not always possible. But don't drag your past into what's in front of you right now. So for me, it comes back down to presence. And it's having the presence of mind, whether you're— if your meetings are happening on Zoom, if they're happening in real life, can you take a minute and connect with your breath I love this thing called birthday cake breathing. I'm teaching it in a week where like you just like breathe in through your nose and then blow out through your mouth like you're doing, blowing out candles on a birthday cake. Can you do more resets in your day so you're not dragging what happened from that last meeting into this new meeting? Or you're not wor— you're not in this new meeting worrying about what's happening at the next meeting. Can you bring more presence? Because I think sometimes we feel like we have to be all things to everybody. And so we don't, we kind of, we bring a little bit of ourselves. Yeah. I think for leaders, as much as you can, can you bring your full, and it's exhaust, it is not easy. You will be exhausted at the end of your day, but, and your team won't notice what you're, they won't be going, oh, she's bringing me more presents. But they will feel it. They'll be like, something's different. They won't be able to put their, but they will feel more, respected. They will feel like they matter. That and having your full attention on that person in front of you is going to be game-changing. Yes.

I know one of the best connectors in the world, and that is his skill set. It is making you feel like you are the most— when he's talking to you, the most important person in the world. Such a powerful leader. And so I think we all can learn from that. Well, Petra, where can people learn more about you and your work?

Um, probably the best way, because it's always changing, I'm pivoting and turning, probably my website petrakolber.com. K-O-L-B-E-R. Am I— I'm really not on social media these days, but I pop on on Instagram every so often. So Petra Kolber on Instagram if you are going to do anything social.

Awesome. Thank you so much. And if you like this episode, you're not going to want to miss my interview with Dr. Alan Bernard, the renowned decision scientist and expert in theory of constraints, who teaches us to make better decisions quicker and smarter with fewer regrets. But if you've ever paused and thought, how did this go wrong? You're not alone. Even the most capable executives fall into invisible traps that stall progress and sabotage results. Let's all lead the way. Thank you, Petra. Hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I'd like to point you to the next important step Hit the subscribe button to get notified when we release new content. I'll see you on the next episode of The Enlightened Executive.