Me, My Career, and Anxiety: A Love Story, with Special Guest Chrissy Rutherford

Hello, hello, hello. I am Suzy Welch, and this is Becoming youg the podcast, where each week we help you answer the tiny little inconsequential question, what should I do with my life? Now, on this podcast today, I want to talk about career planning and anxiety and whether the two can coexist. And honestly, just to skip to the chase, we're going to talk about how the two can coexist. It's not about waiting for anxiety to disappear. No, it's about finding what actually helps you navigate it. And that's what today's conversation is all about. Which brings me to my guest, the wonderful, brilliant Chrissy Rutherford. Now, Chrissy is not only someone who has struggled with anxiety, but also someone who's actually done that and at the same time, absolutely realized her purpose.

So I have to tell you a story. When I was 14, I had this moment. It was the day before Christmas, as I remember it, and I was waiting for my sister to get home from medical school. I had been waiting and waiting, and she got home and two seconds went by, and I pulled her into the pantry off the kitchen, and I looked her dead in the eyes. And I desperately whispered to her, is it possible for someone my age to have a heart attack?

And she threw back her head and she just burst into laughter. And she said, susie, for God's sake, you just have heartburn. And then she told me to stop eating all the candy canes. Now, to be fair, she was not wrong in that I did eat a lot of candy canes. I was famous in my family for eating a lot of candy. But, you know, she wasn't totally right because it was not heartburn at all. It was anxiety. Now, of course, I did not know that at the time. I didn't even know the word anxiety. In the 70s, I'm not sure very many people did. But I was a 14 year old in the 70s, and I just thought that my chest burned and my thoughts kind of raced. I got them all tangled up in my head. And sometimes I felt like trying not to be overly dramatic here, but I thought I might die, okay? I just felt I couldn't breathe. And this was it for me. So life went on. Life went on. And if you fast forward with me a couple of decades, I'm in my 30s, okay? And I have my own kids by now. And one morning I was rushing to work, but I had my son in the back seat, and he's buckled in back there. And very quietly, he says, mommy, my chest is burning. And then he said, it always Burns in the morning. And oh my God. I mean, I thought to myself, I gave it to him. He has what I had. And I was sick. I was sick to my stomach. I went to work, tried to perform like a normal person, and I frantically called the doctor and I got us in. I went, I left work early. I picked him up, we got to the doctor and the doctor was like. So he did not throw back his head and laugh as my sister did in the pantry. Times had changed. And he said to me, suzy, your son has anxiety. You know, I thought, oh, we have anxiety. I had it. And look, I want to be very clear here. There is anxiety that is very serious. A disease for which some people must be hospitalized and treated in a certain way. I'm not talking about that kind of anxiety today. I'm talking about free floating ox, the kind of anxiety that many of us have and sometimes feel episodically. And I don't want to lump those two together because there is a serious disease of anxiety. I've had family members with it. I've brought them to the hospital myself for it, and it's very serious. I'm talking about the kind of anxiety that a 15 or 14 year old girl feel like she's having chest pains and talk to her sister in the pantry about it. This is the kind of anxiety that floats in and out of our lives. And that's the topic we're talking about today. And that's the kind of anxiety that I came to find out that my son also had. But I also realized in that exact moment that I had spent my whole life managing it and that I had put together a pretty big toolkit of ways to get it under control. I think even in that moment, I realized that my incessant running, I ran. I never missed a day of running. I never missed a day of journaling. I prayed a lot. I think my faith developed in a way as an antidote to my anxiety. And there were a lot of little things I did without even realizing it to keep myself from having my chest burning these days. The truth is. The truth is I'm really. I don't really think about my anxiety all that much. If you asked me if I'd have it, I would probably tell you no, because it's so under control. But you know what I think about all the time? I think about anxiety constantly. Why? Because of my students. I have to think about it because I teach 20 and 30 somethings in 2025. So at NYU Stern School of Business, a magnificent business school Here in New York City, I teach a class called Becoming youg where we talk about purpose and fulfillment and designing a life that excites you and fills you with exquisite life. And time and again, time and again, my students come up to me, usually alone. This is not usually asked with raising of a hand in class. They ask, how do I even plan a career when I have anxiety? Just getting through the day is hard enough. The anxiety is endemic. I can't say it's one student here and one student there. It's a lot of students. And you know what? Obviously I get it. I really, really get it. How could I not? I know what this feels like. My answer to them is yes, it's possible to plan a fabulous life in career with anxiety. A thing thousand times yes, yes, yes. Because planning your career and planning your life isn't about eliminating anxiety and isn't just about that. It's about leaning into it. Actually, that's what I believe. It's about replacing your anxiety with data and hope. I love that equation, data plus hope. Because I don't think that planning is the anathema of anxiety, as my students would like to tell me sometimes that it is. I can't plan. The anxiety makes it too hard. I think planning is the antidote. I think it's the cure. So to that end, I recently posted about this topic on LinkedIn. And you know, you post on LinkedIn and then you look a few minutes later or an hour or two later and you're like, what? And I was like, what? Because the responses came flooding in. Everything feels so finite in young adulthood. Every decision feels so huge, and everyone around you is telling you to capitalize on your youth, which only compounds the anxiety. What I wish I could have helped my younger self understand and what I try to preach with loving kindness to those who will listen, is that there is always time to change your mind, to pivot, to do things differently if you feel like you're on the wrong path. So many people feel like they have to have it all together by the time they're 30. The good news is you're barely just getting started. Yes, I love that energy. All of us should have conversations with our younger selves from time to time. I have found in my own experiences with anxiety that I don't even need.

To do anything with the plan. It can just sit there.

It's knowing I have one at all.

That makes a difference. I also usually come up with a better plan once the anxiety dissipates, and.

Then someone else wisely Added, it's always helpful to plan, but don't fall in love with that plan. Things happen.

Plans change.

And oftentimes those changes are for the better. You get the idea. Which brings me to my guest, the wonderful Chrissy Rutherford. And I hope that she gives you encouragement and inspiration because she is the example of how it is absolutely possible to have a fantastic, fulfilling life and career and do it with anxiety by your side.

We'll have our conversation with Chrissy after a short break.

Okay, we're back with our guest, Chrissy Rutherford. So I want to introduce you to someone who's gone from being a becoming you student to a person who I consider a friend. I hope you consider me a friend back. All right. And I read her newsletter, which is called Forward Joy. I actually open it the minute it arrived. Look, I am talking about Chrissy Rutherford, who many of you probably already know. And if you don't, please know about her right away. And I'm so glad to have you here today to continue this conversation or to talk about anxiety and life planning and how they work together, how they align and how they don't. Yeah. So, Chrissy, you wear many, many hats. You're a writer.

Yes.

Is that what it says on your tax returns?

That is such a good question. I don't know. This is a mine, believe it or not. And I have a new tax guy who I think is more understanding for how strange my life is. But to my previous one, who really didn't get it, I think I told her that I worked in digital marketing.

Okay, all right. But you're an influencer. Yeah. You're a cultural phenomenon. And at your core, you're a person. I mean, the way I see you and I. One of the reasons I'm so in awe of you is that you have found your purpose at quite a young age, I might add. How old are you?

I'm just a few weeks shy of my 39th birthday.

Yeah, I mean, that is really young to find your purpose. You're living it. You're an example of it, and I love it. And yet you've done it while navigating anxiety. Yes, you have. I mean, as I was saying to you before, somewhere between 90 and 99% of my students will tell me, pull me aside and say to me, as if they're the only one saying it, I have anxiety. So you have to understand, I'm coming at becoming you with anxiety. And I don't know if I can find my purpose while I am carrying my anxiety on my hip or in my arms. And so we're gonna go there, and we're gonna talk about what it means to build a future for yourself while this is present in your life. You've spoken about anxiety, openly talk about it all the time. So why don't you tell our listeners when you had your first anxiety attack?

I had my first panic attack. I believe it was sixth grade. I remember it was just after, like, the holiday break. It was, I think, the first day back at school, and someone threw up on the school bus. And that was just a trigger for me. And at the moment, of course, like, you're a kid, everyone's, like, grossed out, whatever. And I made it through the rest of that day, kind of feeling, like, a little frazzled. But I made it to the end of the school day. I couldn't go to school for the next three days after that. I was terrified to go to school because I thought that I might get sick. And the brain is a very powerful, powerful thing. So I would convince myself that I felt sick, I felt nauseous, I couldn't go to school. And it became this really omnipresent battle of me trying to convince myself that I might get sick at school.

And so you had no words for this. I mean, you're in middle school or not even. So what did. What did you tell your parents? Or what. How did you actually express what you were feeling?

Oh, my God, that's such a great question. I. You know, I think maybe the first day, they probably believed me, like, oh, I feel sick. I can't go to school. But then when it was going on and on and I wasn't actually sick. Yeah, they're like, okay, something else is going on here. And they did talk to my school. I don't know, like, at what juncture, but they did eventually talk to my school psychologist, and I think they kind of. And, like, she's probably dealing with anxiety. They had suggested that maybe I go on medication, but my parents were very against that.

And tell us about your parents a little bit.

My parents are Jamaican immigrants, so talking about mental health is completely foreign to them. And, you know, I think there was a little. There was a dance of them trying to understand where I was coming from, although they really didn't have any idea. And also giving me a bit of that tough love and trying to push me back into, like, resuming my normal life, because it also. It really flipped my life upside down. As time continued on. I was in school plays, I was in the school chorus. I played instruments. I loved being on stage, you're like.

The model student you were.

I loved being on stage. I was very much a like performing arts kid. And then coupled with this now fear of like getting sick. I couldn't get up in front of my class to give a presentation. I couldn't get on stage. I had to quit everything. I just knew that I had this like overwhelming fear that was hijacking my body. Oh my God.

Were you scared?

And it was very confusing. It was isolating. You also feel really embarrassed. You don't want to tell people about what's going on. Like, I remember feeling, you know, scared about going to my friend, like my best friend's house for sleepovers because what if I got worried or got sick or something happened and then they would see me having this sort of freak out or whatever. Even though I don't know, I think even when I'm having anxiety, probably to the untrained eye, I still look like pretty calm because it's so internalized. It's like I'm in a battle with my brain. Thank God. As much as my parents had like no idea what was going on, they talked to my school and listen to them at least on the front of like getting me a therapist. And you know when you're like a preteen and you're first going to therapy, I think nobody likes their first therapist. Like I remember I didn't enjoy going. But some of the tools that that therapist gave me I still use to this day. I still think about the things that she helped me with, like visualization. If I had to present in front of a class, because listen, you can't really get out of that. There were all these little tricks I had to figure out for myself. So if I knew I had to give a presentation, I would talk to the teacher beforehand and tell her I need to go first. Because if I have to sit in that class and watch everybody go first and let my anxiety build up, I'm going to pass out by the time I get to that class.

So she was teaching you coping mechanisms?

Yes, very much, Yeah, a lot of visualization. So I would, when I was at home, I would literally think about what it would be like to get on the bus, get to school, walk up the steps, go to my locker and just like go through the motions of what it was. Like.

This speaks to everything comes back to becoming you, as I like to say. But this speaks to exactly, I think the power of becoming you to be an antidote to anxiety in that it walks you through the motions. It Is it's like, let's imagine this job. Does it match your values? Does it match your aptitudes? Does it match your areas of interest? And it actually sort of puts you right into the belly of the beast with it. And that is the visualization that you're talking about. And it really helped you, didn't it?

It really. She also taught me how to meditate. Like, 11, 12 years old, I'm meditating. I also really love to journal because I, of course, am a writer. And so I would write down my feelings, and I think I could really connect to the fact that that also really helped me to kind of just like, let it go for a little bit.

But was there a point, though, Chrissy? There was, I think, where you actually wrote about you.

Yes.

I sort of outed yourself with your anxiety.

Yeah.

So talk about that.

So I ended up writing a personal essay for Bizarre about my experience with anxiety. I remember I was in therapy while I was working at Bazaar. So it started off as, like, telling my boss, like, oh, I have an appointment at this, you know, time every Wednesday, so I need to leave the office. And then when everyone would be like, where are you going? I'd be like, oh, I have a doctor's appointment. And then I could own up to the fact that, okay, I'm going to therapy. And so, yeah, it felt. I felt ready to talk about it. But even still, I'll never forget the day that I knew that story was going live. Because again, you. You get hit with that wave of. Of, you know, worry that people are going to think you're crazy.

Yeah, but that. What happened?

But the response was so amazing, and so many people said, like, I experienced the same thing. I'm going through this. Wow. This story made me feel less alone. And I had friends from, like, high school that I hadn't talked to in years reaching out to me, telling me that they were going through the same people. I went to colle. And so it was clear, yeah, this story had legs, and it really resonated with people.

Yeah. And it also freed you on some level. Right.

Big time.

Yeah. So you've been very successful. There's no denying it. You continue to be very successful, and you've had anxiety the whole time. What would you say to somebody who said, I'm just so scared about my career, I don't think I can do what I want to do because anxiety is so much a part of me. What would you say to them?

First of all, nothing feels better than doing the things that scare the out of us. It really. It gives you such a high when you know you've made it to the other side and you're like, that didn't kill me.

Yep. I call this scarephoria. I mean, I have this term for it, which is that there's this balance between being terrified and feeling euphoric. And this is the moment where growth occurs. Yeah, that's my theory. And because every time I've ever grown, I did something that was scaring the out of me, like getting my PhD. I was like, yeah, but it's gonna feel so good. Like, I see the euphoria on the other side of this and I want to go there for the promise of what's there. I mean, I. But I think I don't want to lead the witness here. But I mean, I think you are an example of somebody who said, yeah, I got this thing and it's not going to stop me from living my career. But I'm trying to sort of unpack how it was that you had that self belief. Because part of anxiety is lack of self belief. You're just doubting yourself.

Yeah.

I don't know that I. It was that I was doubting myself, though. I think, listen, we all have like so many different parts and sides to us, and I can recognize that there has always been a part of myself that had a very strong belief in what I'm on this planet earth to do. But sometimes it's hard to follow that when you have this noise of saying, oh, but this is going to be scary. And. Yeah, and it's having to like contend with both of those. Those sides. But.

I think I always believe that I could do it. But you just get worried that maybe this fear is going to hold you back.

Right. And yet you've kept on doing it.

Yeah.

And do you feel like you'll always have anxiety?

Yes, but it's something that I'm very good at managing at this point.

I'm sure you're a mentor to people whether you know it or not. I mean, I know you are because some of your followers have taken becoming you or come to the becoming you intensives. Some of them might have anxiety, some might not. How do you talk to them about without it starting to sound preachy? That's the thing. It's like, I don't want to be that. What do you say when people approach you and talk to you about it?

I think I'm at this place right now where I acknowledge that it's part of the journey, like struggling in some way. Shape or form also helps us get to be the person that we're meant to be. Because I also feel like I've gained a lot of strength from my experiences. And so it's really important for me to share because also.

Can you imagine, like the impact it would have made on my life when I was in middle school if I saw someone like myself talking about their experience? So I guess, yeah, in many ways I want to be able to be that person for someone else.

Right. That's. What if somebody was to come to you and say, okay, I accept that it's part of the journey. How long is this journey?

Oh, man, that's. That's like part of the secret to life, right? Is that we don't know.

Yeah.

And I can remember even from when I started thinking about leaving bizarre. That just felt like a very heavy time in my life. And it feel like it went on for years. And I remember just having this. This heaviness that felt like it followed me everywhere for a while. And yeah, you wonder like, when does this end?

I mean, if somebody asked you though, Chrissy, right now, do you have anxiety? What would you say?

Yes, of course. I know it's like I try, you know, I try not to wear it like a personality, but I think it is something that will always be present. And.

Yeah, there's still. There can be random things that kind of occupy space in my brain and.

It can surprise you because it can come from left field.

Yeah. You know, the thing about anxiety is it's kind of feels like we're playing whack a mole when you feel like you conquered one and bind, which is, okay, I got back on the stage, I got back on the school bus, I did those things. Oh, but now it's presenting itself as a fear of flying or it's presenting itself as a fear of getting on the subway or something like that.

So I love that whack a mole metaphor you said about how it pops up and then you whack it and pops up and whack it. That is such an apt, perfect metaphor. But also just your story in every way is an example of somebody who had this inside them and who navigated and actually created of incredibly purposeful, purpose filled life with it. And then I think is just an example to all others about the fact that it can be done. It's not easy. It becomes part of your purpose. And I thank you for that. Chrissy, I am so glad that you came in.

Thank you so much for having me. This is amazing.

So you know if there's one thing that I hope you take away from today's episode, and again, I want to make it clear, I'm talking about the kind of free floating anxiety and angst that is not the kind of anxiety that's treated with hospitalization. It's a very serious disease. I'm talking about the kind of anxiety that is our co pilot and that we can continue to fly the plane. And here's what I want to say about it. There's one thing I want you to take away from this episode is that there's a moment of truth. There's a choice where we have to decide. And I think I did it. I think my son did it. I know Chrissy did it. And you have to decide that you're not going to let anxiety define your life. You're going to say I'm a person with anxiety, but you're going to say I am not anxiety. And you have to make that decision. And then once you make that decision and it becomes a lifelong discipline and then you have to be filled with discipline and determination and you know what else? Creativity and innovation to keep trying things. Living with deliberation and living with intention is a discipline and you never get a day off from it. And that's true. I mean, it's true about managing your anxiety and it's true about planning your life and your career. It just doesn't happen by accident. I'm not saying you should take spontaneity out of your life. Of course not. Although I might be the least spontaneous person who's ever been born. But maybe that comes from my anxiety that I had to plan, that I had to know. But I think Chrissy does a huge amount of planning. She plans things out about when she's going to travel and how certain things are going to go so that she can also make sure that her anxiety does not define her. You know, she spends a lot of time visualizing to prepare her for things. And this is a discipline, it's a practice. Life is just practicing all the time. Eventually we get better and better at it. And every time I see one of my kids having sort of moments or one of my students too having moments of where anxiety is overtaking them like the beast it can be. I talk about practices, I talk about tools, I talk about strategies. That's what this episode has been about. I don't want you to trade one for the other. I don't want you to trade anxiety for career planning. There's a certain point in your life, there's a whole bunch of decades of your life very early on, where you spend a huge amount of time trying to be successful and making sure, desperately trying to make sure that the world views you as a success. You know, you try to get the next job. You try to look like you're a success in your job. This is sort of your 20s and your 30s and maybe even into your 40s. And you really work hard to make the sure that the world is seeing you as a success, that you're maybe not so sure that you are right. And it. You spend a lot of energy doing it. And then somewhere along the way, you have your first massive failure. Okay, you get a divorce. Super embarrassing, by the way. You get fired. Oh, my God, could it be more embarrassing? And you have a first massive failure, and you think, okay, everyone knows now I'm a massive failure. I'm not the perfect person. I was clearly portraying to the world. What a disaster. And here's the unbelievable kicker. Here's the amazing thing. It makes people like you more. You think the people are gonna like you less and they like you more because suddenly you're a human being. You're so much more relatable, and suddenly you have a lot more humility, and some of your phoniness and inauthenticity has to necessarily die because you had a little public death when you had a big fail. You just suddenly become a much more relatable person. And suddenly people who never talked to you before didn't like you very well before, suddenly like you. I remember this surge of people really liking me a lot after I got fired. I've been Susie Perfect cream cheese for so many freaking years. And then I got fired and got divorced and all this other stuff. And suddenly, like, people were like, I like her. And I was like, what? Didn't see that coming? But here's what's going on at the same time, after you start being more authentic, because you have to be, because you've had a massive public failure, and it's usually much more massive feeling to you than it is to other people. You actually change because you become so much more empathetic. You've failed and you've screwed up. And suddenly you see all the people around you who have failed and screwed up with different eyes. They're not kind of, oof, those people, they just fell off the rail. You're with them. You're just together, shoulder to shoulder, and suddenly you're nicer. I think the same is true about anxiety. I think that anxiety teaches you your own humanity. You start realizing everybody has something that's making it hard for them to get through the day. And it makes you accidentally more lovable because you become more loving.

Becoming youg is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom of Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Muska Nagpal and Kristen Muller, with help from Elisa Zinn, Hallie Reiner, Maddie Paul, and Tanya Joji. I'm your host, Susie Welch, and this is becoming you.