The Four Leadership Traits No One Tells You About, But Should, featuring Dr. Ellen Gendler

Hey. Hi. Hello. I am so glad you are here. This is becoming you. And this is Susie Welch. This is the podcast where each week we attempt to help you answer the question, what the heck should I do with my life? Just that little tiny question. I teach becoming you as a class at NYU Stern School of Business, where I also happen to be the director of the initiative on purpose and flourishing. And, you know, that's what we want for you on this podcast. We want purpose, and we want flourishing. And so becoming you will show you the way to make that journey toward really living your purpose and living at this place where you are, as I like to say, fully and exquisitely alive. It's a rare and wondrous state. It's a journey to get there. But let's go on it together. What do you say?

And on the show today, I actually really want to focus on one tool in the becoming you toolkit that I really, really love. And it is called the. The career Traits Compass. I created it because when I started to look at personality traits and how they affect our professional success, or lack thereof, I had discovered over a period of time, mainly through empirical data, that there are groups of personality traits that cluster together and they bundle together, and they tend to make you a much, much, much more impactful leader. Okay? And if you want to be a leader, then this particular rubric is something you maybe might be interested in, because to me, these are the four personality traits that are completely connected to leadership that no one ever tells you about. Leadership requires you to have a comfort level with a lot of ambiguity and a lot of complexity. And the more you have of these traits, the better you are able to deal with our crazy, upside down, always changing, beautiful, but messy world. And I'm not gonna beat around the bush here. I have them named for the compass, okay? North, south, east, and west. And remember, these are bundles of traits, okay? So here they are. N. North is for nerve. S for south is for soundness. E is for elasticity. And W is for wonderment. Nerve. Soundness, elasticity and wonderment. Okay? North, south, east, and west. So I think one of the best ways to understand what I'm talking about is to see them in somebody else and to have somebody actually illustrating that. And guess what? I want to introduce to you someone who, to me, knowing her for 20 years, embodies all of the traits. Nerve, soundness, elasticity, and wonderment. Oh, my God. And then some. And that is Dr. Ellen Gendler. I've mentioned her before on this show because she was one of My mentor crushes. I've learned so much from her over the years. She's completely no bs. She's very candid. She also happens to be brilliant. She is a true friend of mine. And I think you're gonna learn a lot from this conversation. And it is coming right up.

Ellen, welcome.

It's great to be here.

For those who don't know you, if they googled you, they would find out that you're one of the greatest dermatologists in the world. But tell us about you and your career.

I'm a New Yorker born and bred, Went to medical school here at Columbia, did my training at nyu, arguably the best dermatology program in the world. Oh yes, and I started my career in contact dermatitis, having done some extra training in London. I was the co chair of the contact dermatitis division at NYU for years. We used to treat people with skin allergies, which led me into allergies, to cosmetics, which led me into the world of cosmetic dermatology, which was just burgeoning. And I started the first division of cosmetic dermatology at NYU back in the 1990s. And since then, that's how my career blossomed. I do medical and cosmetic dermatology and I'm the luckiest person in the world to have this career.

We are lucky to have you. And the Internet would tell you that I am not lying because you are also a very large social media star with your dermatology advice feed across all social media platforms. And you should follow Ellen Gendler if you don't already. Stay with us listeners if you care about skincare. Because at the end, as a, as a bonus, I'm going to ask Ellen for all of her favorite products and you'll get an earful on that. You know, usually on becoming you, we talk about values. Okay. And one of the things I love about this methodology is that I'm all the time in my life meeting people who are in their area of transcendence. And you are most certainly one. I mean, I think that you are doing exactly what your values would suggest should be doing. Your profound success as a dermatologist. And actually you've helped me so much so I think you are in your area of transcendence. But actually I want to use this time together to talk not about your values, but actually your aptitudes. And I want to specifically talk about a part of the becoming you methodology which is called the career traits compass. Here's the career Traits Compass. There are four groups of personality traits and they align with the coordinates on a compass. North, south, east, west. So the first one is a bundle of personality traits I call nerve. Okay. That's the north coordinate. And nerve is a combination of stamina, candor and edge. Edge being the ability to make a yes or no decision. You exemplify these so thoroughly. Let's take em one at a time. I think it's gonna be easier to process that way. When I say you're filled with nerve, meaning stamina, candor and edge, what's your reaction?

I could agree. I might agree on that. I have a lot of stamina. I wake up really early.

How early?

I get up at like 4:30. 4:45.

High five, 4:30 club. Along with Dolly Parton, by the way. Go ahead.

And then I exercise. Cause I never can predict my day then. My days long. I get home usually around seven. Yeah, they're long days. So I do have stamina.

And the stamina. When you say exercise, it's not like you're on a yoga map. You're jumping a rope, aren't you?

I jump rope trainers. I do two things because you just have to. I stand all day. So if I didn't, if I didn't do this, I don't think I'd be able to stand.

But you have. Have you always had enormous stamina?

I have.

You know, stamina is kind of inborn. I'm going to say inborn. I mean among your children, can't you see the different levels of stamina? Totally.

They're just born like that.

I think it's a. It's an aptitude. It's maybe a physical aptitude. I'm sure there's a mental component to it. But for a long time I was ashamed, or not ashamed, but I was secretive about waking up at 4:30 in the morning because people think you're a freak. Okay. And you get up, you jump rope, you work out with your trainer. And so stamina. Okay, so stamina, you say?

Yes.

Now candor. I'm.

Well, that's kind of my secret weapon, I guess. I mean, I'm very honest, sometimes brutally so. And I think that it's appreciated by some and not appreciated by others.

I think it's generally appreciated by people. I think the whole underlying reason for your Internet stardom is that you get on and you say, I'm not taking any money for what I'm saying about any products. This product is terrible. And it's a lie what they're telling you. And you're not trying to make friends with anyone, right?

But you also don't want to hurt anyone. My mother always told me, above all, spare someone hurt. So I would not substitute candor for hurtfulness. But in things like I talk about on social media, I think it's really important to be honest and upfront because the public listens and they take your advice seriously.

How do you toe that line?

It's very difficult. I mean, I deal with this with patients a lot and also with staff and friends. I'm very, very honest and upfront, and sometimes people are taken aback by it, and I have to stand, stand back a little bit, because sometimes I'll say a little too much, and it's too much for some people to handle at one moment.

I mean, you, You. You're yielding candor in two different settings. One is you're doing it with your employees. You've got a lot of teams, and so you're giving people feedback in a setting where there's very little margin for error in a doctor's office. Right. And. But you're also having to use candor in conversations with patients. I mean, you've delivered bad news sadly, too many times.

That. That's true. And one of the things I try to do is to make it as palatable as possible. So there's some little tools that I've developed over the years, and here's. I'll give you one that just came to mind. You know, if I get a biopsy back of someone and it's on a Friday afternoon and it's a melanoma, I have a couple of options. I can call the patient right away, and then I realize that nothing is going to change over the weekend. And if I allow that person to have two more good days not thinking about that, I'll call them on Monday. And that's something I've learned over the years. And sometimes my younger associates don't get.

That because you want them to. If you're going to give them the news, you want them to be immediately be able to come in and see you or do something.

Exactly. And they're not going to be able to do that over Saturday and Sunday. And so why should I ruin their weekend?

So what about with employees when you have a hard message like, if somebody's really screwing up at work, how do you walk that line?

It's very hard with employees if they're screwing up, because if they make a mistake that affects a patient, I sometimes lose it. I'll be honest. I really get upset. And I go back to my fundamentals, which are checklist you can't make a mistake when you're dealing with a patient. And I do get very angry about that. And I'm very honest. If that's happened maybe one or two times where something's gotten mixed up, a specimen's gotten mixed up one or two times in 30 years, and we're very honest with the patients about what happened, and we compensate. We figure out what to do to make it right.

You know, one thing I do, I don't know what you're gonna think about this, because I know my candor can overwhelm people sometimes. I say, I'm about to be very candid with you. Like, I give them a beat to think about it. And I've actually sort of described people sometimes. Look, I want you to know that I deploy radical candor, and I'm about to use some radical candor on you. I know that. But I want you to know that it's absolutely in the context of love.

I do that. I mean, I have some very valued employees who have things that make this come up. And sometimes they cry when I talk about it. And I just sit down and I say, please don't cry, because this is not something to cry about. This is something we can work on.

Yeah, right. And so you brace.

You frame it.

You frame it. And I think when you're really candid, being able to frame your candor for other people is helpful.

I agree. But I think if you're on the receiving end of that candor, and it's painful, I believe that you have to hold yourself back from responding in a really emotional way at that moment, because it puts people on edge, makes them feel they can't really share with you what they're thinking. And that's a problem when you're an employee or even in a friendship. Right?

Yeah. And, you know, listeners, just one thought on this. If you are a person who struggles with receiving candid feedback in the moment, it's something to work on, because it absolutely helps your career. If you're a person who can hear hard messages, that is very, very valued. It's very valued.

I mean. Yeah.

Was there a time ever in your career where somebody was radically candid with you and you learned something from it?

Yeah, I think. I think I did a questionnaire with my employees once, and I got some feedback, and I was shocked that several of them. And they. They didn't do it together. Several of them had the same complaints. And I didn't really realize that that was something I was doing. And I was really Taken aback.

What was the complaint?

It was that, you know, that I was super critical of them for doing such and such. And that's where I really put into practice my Peter principle. I realized that I was holding people at times to something they just couldn't do. It was just out of their reach. And I really changed my mind about that. And I've tried super hard to work with all my employees to make them the best version they are. It sounds, like, very trite, but it's so true. But when everybody said the same thing about me, it really hit home. I thought, oh, I'm just. This is what we have to do here. But it wasn't right.

You know, this is just such a trait is to hear hard feedback. It's such a valuable trait to hear hard feedback and to take it.

But they didn't like me for it. It really upset them. It wasn't that they were just commenting on a personality trait. It was really rubbing them the wrong way. Like, they didn't want to be.

But, you know, you could have fired them. All right, and you didn't, right? No, but I'm just saying there's other alternatives. I want to, like. I want to, like, applaud you for this, because sometimes we hear horrible things and we kill the messenger, and you did not do that.

That's right. I really. I really do try to listen and try. I don't always do that, but I try my best.

All right, and then the last one is edge, which is the ability to make a yes or no decision. And you have said to me that this is, again, one of the secrets of your success as a doctor. And I want to just say, in New York City, which is basically the center of the universe, Dr. Gendler, Ellen here is truly considered the finest dermatologist. I mean, you can look her up, but she is. So when I say to people, I go to Gendler. Sorry, I don't say Dr. Gendler, but I say I go to Gendler. They're like, yeah, yeah, of course you do. Right. And because she's so great. All right, so. But you have said that edge and this ability to commit, make a decision and commit is one of your calling cards.

I think it is. And as someone who also teaches medical students and dermatology residents, it's a quality that I think is so critical in a physician, because I've watched young doctors who are not that sure of themselves, and they really can't relay what they want to say. They put a little too much on the patient, and it's onerous for them. So that's something that I feel I've really honed over the years. But I think I kind of started out like this, too. I had strong feelings. I think I knew what I was doing. I could diagnose things. And then I had a plan, and I had plan B if that plan didn't work. But, you know, you have to be helpful and definite with patients and give them the feeling that you're confident in how you're treating them and that you're their partner in treating them. And I think that's really an important quality.

I think that this is exactly the quality of this. You make a decision, you commit, and you execute, and you're very transparent about it. This is edge. And I teach decision making and managerial skills. The problem is that people don't have the courage to commit. They're just afraid. But it's such a winning trait. What we're talking about here is this concept of nerve again, stamina, candor, and edge. And I love that they go together. They tend to go together. It's a clustering. And I see it so much in use now. Let's move to the next one. Soundness. Long ago, I was interviewing Michael Eisner for the Harvard Business Review when he was the CEO of Disney. And at the end, I said, hey, you know, I'm actually running a company here. I'm running hbr, and I'm just wondering if you have any advice for me personally about what I should do to be a really good leader. And he sighed deeply. And listen to this. He said to me, hire emotionally healthy people. Honestly, I've thought about that piece of advice more in my career than almost any other piece of advice I've gotten. All I could think of is, you know, he managed a lot of creative people, and creative people sometimes come with issues, all right? And I managed writers, so I saw a lot of issues, and it makes them great. On the one hand, their emotional complexity makes them great at being creative, but it makes them really difficult in organizational situations. And I came to discover every single year as a leader more and more how important it was to have emotionally sound people. Now, this is not to say anything negative about people who have a very common situation today, which around anxiety. Anxiety is real. I have anxiety in my family. I have a heart for it. It's real. I'm not saying it's. There's anything small about it. And anxiety can be managed. And if you have it, I urge you to seek help so you do get it managed. Because it can. It can steal days and hours from your very precious life. But there's other issues around soundness here that I'm talking about. And so the way I describe soundness is around positive energy, right? Sort of a kind of inherent rational optimism. Okay? Because manic energy, which is sometimes mistaken for positive energy, is bad, bad, bad. But positive energy, which is rational energy. Self awareness is a huge part of soundness. Integrity and resilience. If you've ever been told you have hostile or negative or toxic energy, take note. It matters. Self awareness, you don't know if you're self aware by definition, okay? You just don't. Because people who are not self aware are unable to say, I'm not self aware. Okay? So you need to ask other people if you're self aware or the world will tell you. Integrity and. Which I have a different definition of. Which we'll get to. And resilience, which is the ability to come back from hard stuff, because hard stuff happens. And actually, let's just start there, Ellen, like, when you think about it, what was one of the hardest things that's happened in your career or your life?

I would say I had somebody working for me with me for 18 years, and out of nowhere, she decided that she was going to go out on her own. And that was pretty hard. It was shocking and pretty hard.

Did she take clients with her agents?

Yeah, probably, but that didn't bother me.

What was so hard about it?

Like, it just. I had not. For 18 years, I had been used to having somebody work side by side. We had a synergy, and, you know, there were. There were a few little issues because our goals did not actually align. Apropos of this podcast.

Yes.

So, you know, you have to work with someone whose goals align with yours and be able to work together with them. But we kind of did. And I was really stunned when she told me that. And that was a big shock to me. It worked out fine, but it was tough.

Well, there's your positive energy sort of going in and interpreting it. But for you to mention it, as soon as you did the way, there must have been some feelings of hurt or maybe even betrayal.

Sure.

Yeah. Okay. All right. So how'd you come back from it? Did you just rationalize your way through it with the resilience or how'd you bounce back? Did you turn to friends? What was the.

Yeah, I turned to friends, but I had ideas immediately. In fact, we were actually on vacation, having just landed, and we were in the airport, and she called me. And while we were walking. We were just on the street. She told me. So I was across the country, and it really came as a shock. And my husband was laughing because within an hour, I had a plan.

Well, you know, here's the thing. Okay, so here's my definition of resilience. See what you think about it. I think resilience does take grit, but I also think it takes forgiveness. You've gotta immediately forgive the person or forgive yourself for screwing up. And that, to me, is the essential, Essential missing part. When people talk about resilience. Resilience is not just, oh, I'm gonna. I'm gonna overcome. I'm gonna be strong. I'm gonna get over it. It's also like there has to be this letting go of what went wrong. And in your case, what you're describing, you basically said, okay, it's over. I'm not even gonna think about how she hurt me, really, or dwell on it. I think there was probably some form of forgiveness, whatever. She had her reasons. Right? Right. Yeah.

And it's very hard to. You can't rationalize that with someone. They feel the way they do. And you can try to talk it out, but once you get to that point, it's done. So now live with it and move on and figure out next steps.

When I see people who are struggling with resilience and having a lot of trouble coming back from something, I think they have not done this essential piece of either forgiving themselves.

Yeah, I mean, I'm very well aware of my shortcomings, and I have many. When I was young, I didn't realize that there were people who just couldn't do certain things. And my attempts to get them to do them. We're not gonna work.

Right.

So now what I try to do with people that work with me is to get them to be the best versions of themselves. Because they can't be me or you. They just are gonna be who they are. And I think that's a helpful limit. But I also feel strongly that I hold myself to the same standards that I hold everyone who works for me. Yeah, you've gotta live like you're a pilot. You've gotta check every box when you're with patients. And if you don't and a mistake happens, you're screwed, and patients will be too.

This is. This is the exemplar of self awareness, is you're, like sort of saying, people act this way. Here's these guardrails we'll put in so that they don't go to their worst Selves and right. I mean, and you're asking, you're asking the people who work for you. Look, you say I'm self. Aware. I would like you to be self aware too. Here are some techniques for it. I mean, one of the things also is to get a bead, dear listeners, on how self aware we are. And the only way you can do that is to ask people who you love and trust. You know, I'm just doing a little test right here to find out how self aware I might be. And I really need you to be honest because there's no way for me to know this myself. On a scale from 1 to 10, where am I in this part of my journey? And make it easy for them to answer the truth for you. Right.

Sometimes it's surprising. I've done that. We throw out questionnaires to my employees, you know, anonymous, and you get answers and go, what? I know it's not me, but obviously they perceive it that way. So those are things I need to address. But I have an incredible staff, very loyal and wonderful staff. And I think that too is a key to success, is having the people around you contribute. Because what do they say? There's no I in team.

Yes, ma', am. For sure. All right. Positive energy. We're hearing you coming out of you. The last thing I'll just say here is integrity, knowing right from wrong. But I also think integrity, because we all know that definition of integrity. For me in the professional setting, I want to underscore very strongly that for me in the professional setting, integrity is that you get things done. You say you're going to do it and you do it. Follow the call. I'm calling you by five and you call by five. I'm getting you this project by Tuesday. You get it in on Monday afternoon. Your reputation for integrity is directly related to execution. Basically how well you get stuff done. That is where it comes from. Because right from wrong. Like how often, you know, I mean, there's so many controls at work and so many guardrails. You have to know right from wrong, but you wash out pretty quickly if you don't. But at work, your reputation for integrity drips, drips, drips away. If you are poor at execution, but.

You know, you have a team that works with you to execute, and if one person is weak, you may have to take over. And that's just how it is.

If you're a boss. Yeah.

If you're a boss and blaming other people doesn't work.

That's right. No, by any means necessary. You get it done correct.

And it often means micromanaging. So I think one of my biggest flaws is that I'm a complete and utter micromanager. It's annoying, but that's just me. So they have to understand that. And you know, if there's things that are a problem, I'll fix them. And they can't be upset about that. It's just I do it to everyone.

The mere fact that you just said one of my greatest flaws is I'm a micromanager proves your self awareness. Okay? That's elasticity. Very important for all careers. But really, especially today, the world is changing constantly and you have to have a certain elasticity. The way I define it with the career traits compass is around your adaptability to new tasks, new jobs. Your job has changed. Dermatology has changed radically over the past 20 years. It's going to keep on changing with all sorts of new technology. But another part of elasticity is the ability to be friends with people who are different than you are. These are two different things. Your adaptability to different kind of work. You know, we're all sort of forced to adapt because if your job changes, your job changes. Okay, lasers come out. If you don't use lasers, you're going to lose customers. But it's this ability to kind of go in and out of different social groups and types of relationships, people of different ages, people from different socioeconomic backgrounds, this flexibility around accepting other people who are not like you. It is absolutely key to whether or not you can succeed and thrive in the workplace today. And actually, frankly, in the world, in life. So talk about it, talk about it.

That's why I have literally the best job in the entire universe. Because I get to take care of people who are 2 months old and 97 years old, people who are sick, dying, or perfectly healthy, people who care about their health, they care about their looks. I get to do everything. I've made so many friends. It's the greatest job in the world. I'm serious. And when I started in Derm, it wasn't like this. I mean, Derm was a very intellectual. There was no such thing as cosmetic dermatology. I started out by being a co director of the contact dermatitis unit at nyu. We dealt with allergies of the skin, and by virtue of that, I got exposed to new cosmetics and products people were reacting to. And then it just snowballed from there. I got involved in clinical trials and when new fillers came out and it really worked out for me.

Do you Remember when Botox came out?

I do.

I mean, it was like I was 40, and they said, like, there's this new thing that you can. If you get a needle in your face. And so at that time in my life, I had these, like, lines between my eyes that made me always look mad. And my kids were saying to me all the time, why are you mad? And then I would, like, lift my hand up to my face, and I'd pull the wrinkles apart, and I would say, look, I'm not mad. It's just my face. And so then I quickly ran over to a dermatologist who, like, gave me, like, my first Botox, and my mad face went away. And the kids were like, mommy's not mad anymore. And it was just a wild thing, but it was unusual. Like, you would never admit that you did it. And now. Now there's freaking Botox parties, and girls who are 22 years old get Botox.

It's a little insane. That's true.

What do you think?

I have trouble with it. There are certain young girls who I think can benefit from it, particularly if I know their parents and I know what their parents look like. And, no, I'm serious. And I don't even mean more than I don't think attractive or not. I have a whole series of slides that I use in my lectures, and I call it Mothers and Daughters. And you can see the patterns of how people's faces move.

You were going to get this when you came to the Becoming youg podcast today. You did not.

I didn't know I was going to do this. Get me started on this.

I wish I looked like Sophia. All right, so, I mean, but you're saying there's just patterns in how the. Patterns.

There's patterns. And so you just look at a person when you're 20 years old and you come in, and I don't see any sign that you even have the faintest line in your face. But your friends are getting Botox. No, you're not getting Botox.

Will you say no to a patient who wants Botox all the time? Yep. There's the integrity stuff. I mean, there it is. And then they do. They get mad at you and pouty.

They don't get really mad. But patients say, well, I know you're going to tell me not to do it. I know you're going to tell me. It's just, that's the way I am. Anything I do, I want to do well, and I want patients to be happy. So I'm not Someone who overfills. I don't overdo anything. Yeah, I might be a little too conservative, but that's okay.

I think you always put smart in. But that's. We love you for it, Ellen, so. Or should I call you Dr. Gendler? All right. Elasticity, friends with everybody, and adaptability. And you're, again, an exemplar of both these. When somebody comes to you and says, this is really changing at work, do you freak or do you say, I'm curious?

I always say I'm curious. I always say I'm curious. And I never say I won't do it. But there are certain things I know I will never do. And if I'm not expert or pretty close to expert, I have no interest in doing it. And I have other people to whom I refer.

Yeah, but you're a voracious learner. You're always telling me, I just found out about this thing, Try this thing.

But that's just me. But even so, there's lots of things I don't do as well as somebody else, so, you know, then I don't do it. I. But I have people right at my side who can do those things so that all my patients get the best care. And those of you listening, I'm sure most of you are not doctors, and you think, oh, I really can't relate to this. But you know what? Being a physician is also a business, because you're in the business of helping people, treating people, dealing with them, you know, bossing people around, and also working for others. You know, you work within the confines of a university. There's so many things. It's the same. There's only 10 stories in the whole world, and they apply to everything. Yeah, that's how. That's how I look at it.

Yeah. Hmm. You're a philosopher. Along with all the other things you do. Okay, north, south, east, west. All right, let's talk about the last coordinate, which is wonderment. Okay? Wonderment stands for just curiosity. Okay. Which is a little bit like adaptability. But, I mean, curiosity is a gene. You know, you're born with a certain part of curiosity. You can develop it. There are hacks for curiosity. One of the great hacks for curiosity is that when somebody is talking and it's your turn to go, instead of telling, relating your own story, you ask a question. This is a way to develop the muscle of curiosity. And I love it. I try to use it myself, although I think I was born with quite a lot of curiosity. The other is, though, keeping yourself current Your currency is your currency. I've said this before. I think what I'm saying with it is that the more current you are, the more up to date you are, the more aware you are of what's going on and what's coming, the more your worth in your professional life. Okay.

Especially as you get older, because people tend to look at you like you might be. So if you can stay up to date on everything and do it well, then you remain respected.

I really feel for younger people, though, Ellen, because right now, what's new is like a. Is like a fire hose coming smack in their faces. And it's like. I mean, we sort of got new stuff pulsed out to us in a way. It was like, you know, oh, look, electrical typewriters. I don't need to use. I know. Fax machine. That was like a gigantic thing. It took us, like, 10 years to warm up to the fax machine. And so. And a lot of people listening to this don't even know what a fax machine is. Okay. But I would say that, like, now. I mean, what's coming at my students? And I mean, it's.

I don't know how they do it. I really don't. And especially with social media, and this sounds so boring because everyone's talking about this, how toxic it can be, and it really can be. And frankly, that's part of my currency. Who would have thought that somebody like me would suddenly get into social media? I never even looked at.

At Instagram. Let's talk about it. Okay. You had never looked at Instagram. And then how many years ago was it?

I don't know. Maybe three.

And then what happened? What came over you to say, okay, I'm gonna start making a video every single day?

What came over you really want to know what happened?

I do.

I had a very bad back problem, and I had a procedure done to my back, and I was lying flat on my back, and I was on steroids, so I couldn't sleep. So it was the middle of the night. I was reading books, and I picked up my phone, and I started looking at Instagram, and I maybe had posted two. Two pictures in my whole life, and I started looking at what was going on, and I was appalled, and I ended up saying, this is crazy, but.

You were appalled by the dumb stuff that people were saying.

I believe it. And the bad information and things that I've been talking about in my office for so many years, Blah, blah, blah, sunscreens, this and that. I said, this is terrible information. And I swear to you, it's the craziest thing. I posted one or two videos, and I watched my phone. I mean, it went from like.

Like blow up.

I was watching it, and it was like a thousand to the. And just 10,000. Like, what? It was so bizarre. And I had no information about this whatsoever. And then one of my nurses said, why don't you post this on TikTok? I was like, what's TikTok? And I posted it. It's like 5 million views. It was really insane. So I don't understand that at all. But what happened? It opened up this world to me that I set to say it's my currency because I'm too old to be on social media.

But.

But when I saw what was coming out, and I do get a lot of flack for this now, I have to admit, some of the younger derms hate me. I can't take it. And I think it's not right. And I feel that it's part of my duty as an educator, as a physician to get correct information out to the best of my ability. I do get a lot of positive feedback from people I've never met. People love you, friends. But I've also gotten a lot of hate mail. Really bad hate mail.

If you're out there, you get hate mail. But here's the thing. I don't want to make too big a deal of it, but it's the truth. It's like in your 60s, you just reinvented with the social media stuff. You just started doing it. You didn't set out to reinvent yourself. You said, I'm doing this. It's cool. I'm going with it.

But I like it, so now it's fun.

All right, since we've got you here, can we ask some skin care questions? Okay. What's the best new treatment for making yourself look young?

That's just come out that I cannot answer. So because there's no one treatment.

What do you like? What do you like?

This is what I like. I like telling people who are 20 years old to start now. And the thing they should start with. And this is. Sounds so boring, but it's not, is sunscreen. And it sounds ridiculous, and it's a complicated topic because in the United States, we have certain restrictions from the FDA as far as what can go into our sunscreens. And in Europe and Asia, they have better ingredients to protect against certain wavelengths of ultraviolet light. And if you can get your hands on those, that's wonderful. And any sunscreen is better than none and it sounds dull. And you're going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's so true. Because when you finally figure out that this is what you should have been doing, it's not necessarily too late, I urge you. And it's boring. But if that's your foundation, then you can build from that. And there's lots of other things you can do. But don't waste your money on nonsense. You know, you guys should be saving your money for things that are important in life, not buying snail mucin and other ridiculous products and spending your whole day in Sephora. You should have a foundation that includes sunscreen when you're old enough. You use retinoids, you use antioxidants on your skin, and you use, in my opinion, DNA repair enzymes, which are very helpful in protecting against damage from ultraviolet B. Those are the basics. Who knew.

Who knew you were gonna get this extra benefit? Knowledge.

But young people do things now that will affect you when you get older. And just keep everything in your whole life, in your job, in your friends, the foundations you make now will affect you 20 years from now. And it's so, so important. One thing that used to bug my kids all the time, I'd invite them to go somewhere with me like you're coming with me to, and they go, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. I say, you know, you could meet someone there who will change your life and you don't know it. And, you know, I think it's really an important thing to try to look ahead if you can, even when it's not what you want to do at the moment.

So true. Those are wise words to end on. I think we will. This has been so great. You are so great. Look, I love that you came to talk. I love that I had this podcast to be able to share some of this thinking around becoming you with people. And that I am so lucky to know people who are just great examples of becoming you in action. And that I was able to share the traits compass with you today. One of my favorite topics. So make sure you come back and visit us again on becoming you. And please know that I don't know you, but I do love you so very much and I'm so happy that you're part of this ever growing community. Keep listening and tell your friends about us and hit the follow button, all those other things. And until then, have a fantastic week and I'll see you again soon.