The Lies We Tell About Love with "We Met At Acme"'s Lindsey Metselaar

Hi, everybody. Hello. You won't believe it. It's me, Susie Welch. Hi. Welcome to Becoming you. I am, I'm unspeakably happy you're here with us this week. If it's your first time, Love you. And if you're back, I love you, too. We have a Here I go again. I'm about to tell you it's the greatest show ever. But it's really, you know what we talk about in Becoming you a lot. We talk obviously about values, aptitudes, and interests. We talk about finding your purpose and what to do with your life. But we talk a lot about relationships. We talk a lot about love. We talk a lot about marriage. Because why? I'm always telling stories about my successful relationships and my unsuccessful relationships. And today we're going to talk about love on Becoming youg. This is the love, relationship, dating, marriage episode of Becoming youg. And the reason why is that we have an incredibly special guest, a person who's a huge expert in those areas. And you probably know her already. So I'm not even going to introduce her for that receipt. No, I am of course going to introduce her. Hi, Lindsay. I'm so happy you're here. Many of you may already know Lindsay, and she has her own podcast, which is called We Met at Acme. It's about love and dating, isn't it? How did it even start?

It started, first of all, thank you for having me. It started in 2017, which is almost a decade ago, which is nuts, crazy nuts. And I was dumped on my 27th birthday going into my Saturn return. If we have any woo woo listeners.

Yeah, I, I, we think we have a few.

And I, you know, had thought about podcasting. I had been on a friend's podcast before, and I was like, there are no dating podcasts about dating in New York City and how awful it is.

The pits.

It's terrible. And I needed one. And so I created what I really needed. I was speaking to friends about their dating experiences. I was kind of doing a dating diary for myself as well. And it had, has since expanded to interviewing amazing, you know, therapists, dating coaches, celebrities, influencers, and just hearing about everyone's dating, dating lives. And I've learned so much.

Yeah. Why were you dumped on your 27th? What was his reason?

He thought that we were on the same page. He was like, oh, you thought that we were gonna be long lasting. And I was like, wait, what? Especially because I was the person in my friend group that everyone went to for dating advice. So it was, I, I Don't wanna say blindsided, because I hate when people say that, because, you know, hindsight's funny. You. You. You realize everything later. But I was maybe just a little bit delusional.

You thought it was forever.

Not that it was forever, but, you know, I'm a Libra, like yourself, and, like, I love love, and so I wouldn't be with someone if I couldn't at least envision.

Yeah.

But there were definitely red flags.

And he was like, this is not. This is. This is a fun, casual dating situation.

I don't think that he always thought that. You know, he brought me home to his family to meet his parents, yada. It just wasn't a match. But in his defense, I was also a completely different person. Not in a great place. This is before I got sober, which is a whole, you know, level.

So it just. It wasn't. It wasn't gonna work. But I think.

Aren't you so glad that you didn't stay together?

I mean, I'm so grateful to him.

Right, right.

For ending it when I couldn't see that it needed to be ended.

And now you're happily married with a baby and another on the way. So we're gonna get to all of this and your vast wealth of knowledge. I mean, you've heard. Does anything surprise you anymore when it comes to love and dating these days?

Really? Nothing? I've heard disgusting stories. I've heard amazing stories.

Do you still believe in love?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

More than anyone.

All right, well, we. Look, we. The reason why we're thinking a lot about love around here and need to get your opinion, is that we have this test, the values bridge, which you have taken, and the values bridge recently, after having 15 values in its inception, and it's based on my PhD research, blah, blah, blah, we had to add a 16th value because we were not capturing the value of romantic love, of partnered love well enough through family centrism and through belonging, which were the two other values related to love, belonging, being the love of friends. So we added this value of belovedness. And now, because 70,000 people have taken the values bridge, we have enough data to take a real close, very close look at the value of belovedness and to really have some amazing new learnings about how people think about love and relationships and the difference between the genders which are real. Before we dive deeply into those, let me just take a pause and say who we are and what we're doing here. Just. Again, this is becoming you. This is a podcast where we ask the question, what Should I do with my life? I'm a professor of management practice at NYU Stern School of Business and the director of the Initiative On Purpose and Flourishing. The Becoming youg Methodology excavates three different data sets. Your values, your aptitudes, and your economically viable interest. To help you know yourself better, paint a self portrait of yourself, which really is where it all begins. With love, isn't it? Okay, I'm forcing you to agree with me by staring at you in that meaningful way. And we always look, we know we love to look at our data on the values bridge because not everybody feels the same way about values. And we have discovered that the value of belovedness, which we all go into with assumptions, like there are assumptions in our culture and in society. Women feel this way about love and men feel that way about love. And I bet in your work and in talking to people about dating. Well, before I sort of talk to you about the data, you know, what do you hold to be true about love and dating in 2025?

I think that the bottom line is still the same, which is that people do want to be loved and people do want. Most people want to start a family, and they still see that as the, you know, end goal.

Yes. I have to quote Taylor Swift here. Have you heard her new album?

Of course.

Of course. I have to say, I listened to it as soon as it came up. And she's got this song called Eldest Daughter. And in it she says, when we first started dating. I don't know the exact words. When we first started dating and I told you I didn't believe in marriage, I was lying. That was a lie. And later she says, because I never thought I could get that life I wanted. And I do think it's exactly as you say. And in fact, our research would agree that everybody has a value of belovedness, I think, at a different level than we would suspect. And actually the data would show that everybody wants a little bit more of it, 100%.

And I love that Taylor came out right, and said that, because that couldn't be more of what I was almost projecting onto her. You know, she kept saying in her last relationship with Joe Alwyn, like, I, you know, I'm good. Like, I don't need this. You know, I don't need that. And I can relate to that because I would say that in relationships that weren't serving me either. And you kind of try to change your thoughts on what you're accepting, because that's what you're just getting. And you try to forget that you wanted more.

You make yourself so vulnerable by saying, I really want that thing. I want love, I want a marriage.

Exactly. But at that point you're just like, well, I should just be happy with what I have. This is good enough. And I'm so happy that she didn't settle.

Yeah, right. And. And then even to come out and give permission to have this conversation where she said, okay, when I said that before, that was a lie. I think. I think a lot of women heard that and had some reflection.

Oh, totally. I mean, I have women in my life who have lied to me about it and then been like, you know what? I do, I do want it.

Right?

Yeah.

Every time I meet a woman who's in a long term relationship and it's not going in a direction towards marriage, and I say, well, what's going on with that? And they say, I'm not really sure I want to get married. I think. I think to myself, that is a lie. Y so. But the data would suggest something else. So actually, how about this? How about we go down some of the data that we have gotten from the belovedness value dump that we have received since so many people have taken the new version of the values bridge and hear what like an incredible expert on love and dating has to say about it. You're not cynical about love and dating, or are you?

No, I'm not at all. I'm if anything, delusional.

Okay, well, at least you know you're delusional, which makes you less delusional maybe. All right, so you've taken the values bridge and thank you for doing that. The Values bridge is a test that asks you 100 behavioral questions. It takes, it kind of allow. It actually forces you to tell the truth because these are behavioral questions. And it then ends up ranking your deeply held beliefs, motivations and desires 1 to 16. And sometimes we have all of these values, but we don't always have them all equally. And that's what it shows. Belovedness is the value of wanting to have or wanting to protect a romantic partnership. It's really, how much does romantic love and intimacy matter in your life? It also measures how much you're living it because you can want it, it can be your number one value, but you can maybe be single and really looking and really maybe even lonely, and you can have a gigantic, what we call authenticity gap. So it measures that. But we were able to look at the results of thousands of people and where belovedness ranks for them, and then cut the data every which way but sideways. And so Here are some of the findings. See what you have to say. Okay, I'm just going to read them to you, and I'll read it twice if you need me to, because some of this data is kind of big. All right, here's one of the findings. Men are 70% more likely than women to rank belovedness in their top five values.

Say it again. Men are 70% more likely than women to rank belovedness in their top five values. Now, we call these top five values your core values. And, you know, I think that the societal and cultural trope is that women want belovedness. They want a relationship, they want marriage, they want a guy. But what we found was that while both genders want belovedness, men are 70% more likely to want it in their top values than women. Any reaction? What is your reaction?

My first reaction is men need women more than women need men. Like, I don't think that anyone realizes that, but it's very true because we get a lot from our female friendships. You know, we get a lot from our relationships with our moms or whatever it might be. And men get everything from their beloved. And so I think that shows me that exact point that men need us more than we need them. Which is hilarious, because women are out there being like, oh, my God, I can't find a man. And it's like, well, men are dying to find you.

I know it. You know, when I was young, it was sort of during this period of women's lib, and there was a T shirt. I think Gloria Steinem was the first one who wore it. It said, women need a man like a fish needs a bicycle. And I remember thinking, ew, maybe that's true. It's like. But I think, though, that the false narrative is that women maybe because women are just more verbal about it. Women are like, I want to, you know, I want to get married. Or they tell the lie like, you know, Taylor Swift was referring to. You know, when I say I don't want it, it's like. But the truth is, men, it seems like in silence are the ones who really want the relationship.

It is in silence, and that's why no one thinks it to be true. But it is in silence. And as someone who's worked with male matchmaking clients, I can tell you they want it. They really want it.

Why don't they say it?

They. They probably don't say it because of everything that they are gonna have to unlearn. You know, of all, like, the masculinity stuff. And it's not cool. Like, it's not cool. Yeah. It's not the thing I just want to find.

Yeah.

Love. I'm just lonely. You know, you almost never hear a.

Man say, I'm lonely.

No.

It feels unmanly, maybe.

Yeah.

Do you think men are lonely?

Definitely. There was like an epidemic of male loneliness. Wasn't Scott Galloway.

Yeah. Scott talks about it all the time. And he. I think he's right. I mean, I think that he's feeling it. And at this. I think this data, I think he's not wrong at all. This data really suggests it. I mean, the men are kind of 70% more likely. And I think you're right about women. We do draw energy from other women. We draw from our sisters, from our moms, and we can. It gives us almost the power and the energy to say, I'm lonely. Whereas men are not drawing that. And then the woman becomes everything to them, which doesn't always make them act like the woman is everything to them. I mean, it's funny. Then they get the partnership and they don't necessarily treat it the way they should.

Well, some. Some might, but definitely no one's perfect about it.

No.

And neither are women. Just. Just, you know.

Yeah.

Owning my own stuff.

Yeah. I think it's true. I think I come from a generation where it was the men who cheated and the women did not. But, you know, statistically, if men are cheating, they're cheating with someone. Right. So it should be kind of equal statistically. All right, here's another data point for you to react to. Women, and especially single women, are twice as likely to rank belovedness among their bottom five values. So for women, 41% have it in their bottom five values. That's how low it is. 1 to 16. We rank the values. 41% have it in their bottom 5 values. That's like saying. Well, let's get your opinion about why that would be. I mean, that's. A lot of women say, it's just not even a value to me. And it's only 27 for single men. How could you explain this? I have a theory. I want to hear yours.

Well, my theory is that if they rank it higher, they don't feel valuable because they don't have it.

Yeah.

And they're. It's like self preservation.

Yes.

They have all the other things. They have the career, they have this.

Yeah.

So if they say they don't have the one thing that they really value, then they're like, almost beating themselves up.

Right. If it doesn't matter to you, then you don't have to feel like you're losing.

Yeah. What's your theory?

My theory is that women have given up, that there's a portion of single women. It just got very hard. You date and then you found out. You find out on the third date he's still married. Or. I mean, this is just the horror stories I hear, right? Or they're baby men or what's that thing she calls them? Man child. It's a baby man. Like they're just, they're fboys. I'm sorry, pardon my French. And you just find out like they kind of present. Well, like, my daughter went out on a date with a guy who she met him on Hinge and by all rights, he looked fantastic. Like everything she knew about him she could find him on LinkedIn. Wonderful, like, great looking career. I kind of knew somebody who knew him. So I kind of triangulated. He was great. And like an hour into the dinner he said to her, do you do mushrooms? And like, wanted to spend the rest of the night doing that. And it was like, okay, like, you know, and where did you grow up? You know, like just. Absolutely. And she just like, she texted me, like under the table, coming home. And I thought, here we go again. You know, how many times have you received texts from friends on promising dates where the text is, you know, getting out of here like an hour into it.

Yeah, it's. It's definitely rough out there for sure. But again, my delusional side is I think that it only takes one really wonderful, special person. And so you're gonna have these disaster dates that everyone has a story like this.

Yes, I had a unsuccessful first marriage, although my first husband is a good friend of mine. And then I was single before I met my second husband. And I was so absolutely sure that there was no one for this single mother with four young children and a full time job that I used to say to my kids in that period, I'm married to you now. And it was, it felt like that. And I probably would have been a person who had belovedness down in my bottom five at that point. But when I met, met Jack and we went on to have this splendid, beautiful marriage, I'm sure when he was living that belovedness for me was number one or two. And I think for him also, and I do think a seismic event can change your value around this. But the fact that so many women have it as a peripheral value, I think maybe we're both right in this way. You're sort of saying if you don't admit it, then how can you feel badly about it? How can you feel, like, yearning around it? And the other. My. It also is that women maybe had it as a value and then just said, I've had one too many bad dates.

Yeah, I think it's a mixture. I think, you know, I hear women all the time who are single and have been single say things like, why do I have to spend this at someone's wedding? Why is it about their baby shower? What if I wanted to have a promotion party? What if I wanted to have a housewarming party for me, getting my own place? You know, but society doesn't reward that. And so maybe there's some part of it is rebellion to say, you know, there are other things that are more important. And even though I do want that, deep down, I want to show the world that there are other priorities.

Yeah. Almost defiance to say. Exactly.

Like, I've gotten messages on Instagram being like, I, I am upset with your podcast because it prioritizes the end goal being love and relationships. And I'm like, yeah, it does. It does. And I understand if that upsets you and this isn't a place for you to, you know, be following.

Right.

But it's like that kind of feeling that you need to, you know, chastise someone for prioritizing something that isn't on your list at that moment.

Right. And I do also think that there's a. There's a group of women who really do prioritize achievement. And. And this is just a genuine reflection of that is like, I don't buy into that. And in fact, one of my daughters, until she met the man she eventually married, said to me, look, I just don't buy into the patriarchy. And you'll never see me wearing a white dress walking down a wedding. I'll smash the patriarchy. And guess what she did last week? She wore.

She tried on her.

She wore a white wedding dress. All right, all right, so we've cracked the code on that one. Here's another piece of data, and we talked about this earlier, is everybody wants more belovedness in their life. Okay? So there's. We. Can we test two things, which is how much you have and how much more you'd like. And in almost every value, people say, some people say, I want more of it, and some people say, I want less of it. So for an example of that, with Gen Z, they rank achievement quite low. They don't want to have successes of value in their life. This is very generationally well known they put it at number 11, but 60% say, is it 11? I still wish there was less. Okay, so there's a, there's a, there's a variance that shows it's even too much. But with belovedness, nobody says they want less. Okay, they may say I want it number one or I want it number seven or I want it number 16, but no one says they want less of it. I mean, in that way I think I'm kind of encouraged by that. People still want love.

Yeah, yeah.

Still need love.

They do, for sure. And that's, that's upsetting to hear. I hope that the next generation wants to have some achievement, but everybody, thank goodness.

But achievement, yes, you're reacting to the achievement part of it. Yeah, it is, it's upsetting to everybody. But Gen Z, which is basically.

Well, do you think that has to do with the working from home model and all of that?

I think there's so many explanations for it. I mean, I think one of the reasons for it is that they look at their parents who had achievement as a high value and they are looking at their parents maybe unemployed now or struggling in their jobs or being phased out and they say, what does it get you to have achievement? It doesn't. And I think also another piece of it is that with achievement comes what? Anxiety.

And I think, and hopefully money.

Yeah, right. But they are, that, that's a knife's edge. It's like, okay, I want the money, but I don't like the anxiety. And I think that they go back and forth between saying, I don't like this trade off.

The anxious generation, they don't want anxiety.

So they can, they do a lot of things to diminish anxiety. Whereas I think when I was coming along, I understood that to get anything you wanted, you were going to have to be anxious. That was just life. We called it like adulting. Okay.

100%. It's looked at very differently. Mental health is prioritized a lot more with that generation, which I'm not saying is a bad thing. I'm just saying that we were meant to be unwell.

Yeah, say.

Say more because it's such an interesting line. Go ahead.

No, I mean, we just, we were, we were being told that, you know, 90 pounds was chic. We, we were being told that therapy means you have major problems and need to be avoided.

Anxiety was not even like a buzzy term that was used. It was just like you need to be doing X, Y and Z and if you're not, then you're doing Something wrong? It was when mothering was, it's my way or the highway. If you don't like it, get a new mom. You know, parenting is different. Everything is different.

I said that line. So did my to say, you don't get to pick your mom.

And, you know, they loved it, but we're all good friends now. Okay, so here's an interesting data point that we also got, which is that people with higher income levels, so we cut the data by income. People with higher income do rank belovedness higher. So the more money you make, the more you value intimate partnered relationship.

That's so interesting.

I don't understand it.

Do you kind of. I think you feel like you have that check of that box of, you know, supporting yourself.

Right.

So now you feel like you can give more of yourself to love.

Or if you're making more money and you're a man, you need, you can.

Provide more or you need more support.

The support of a loving relationship.

Yeah.

I mean, I often say I need a wife because I am working so hard and it would be so great. And I think that when Jack was living, he was so grateful to the stuff I did as a wife. There's some stuff that only your partner does for you. You know, they're your team. They just say the stuff no one else says. They know you on a level of intimacy no one else does. They sort of anticipate things. And I think that perhaps it's related to maybe these people with higher income have more complex jobs, and the desire to have a helpmate is part of it.

I think you're right. I think the more you, it's like more money, more problems, like, you make more money, you need more support. And that support isn't only, you know, from an assistant. It's also emotional.

Right. Bring on the partner, bring on the husband or wife. All right. We have a funny data point which is really interesting, which is when it comes, we cut the data by job type, and the people who have the highest, by job, highest desire for belovedness for a partner are in finance and sales. And I love this data point. The lowest is for people who are in academia.

Oh, that's so funny. That's so funny. I would say the finance need for love is like, you don't have time to go out and do it yourself. Like you don't have time to go out and find. You just want love to be there when you get home. That's right. You just want a hug, right? I, I, I wonder if the academia is because you get so much love from what you're doing.

No, I'm gonna have a different theory. Yeah, tell me you don't get any love when you're a professor with academia, right? What's it filled with? All these high brain intellectuals, and they analyze love, and they look at love from all the different angles. And, you know, love, if you get too up in your brain about it and too abstract, maybe it's just they're so smart, they see all the downsides of love. And actually, academics tend to be a little on the pessimistic side because they're deeply intellectual. And so they're not the most cheery people in general. I mean, they're just really smart, kind of scholarly, and they don't tend to have sort of like the oozing optimistic high energy. And sometimes love requires a little bit of suspension of disbelief and.

And academics don't do that very well.

That is interesting. I mean, obviously you're right because you're coming from.

Because I'm hanging around with them and I love them. I love my academic colleagues. They're the best dinner party in the world is with a bunch of academics because they're so smart. I have to tell you the funniest story. When I was testing the values bridge originally, I mean, think about the early days of creating a psychometric tool. You're testing it on pieces of paper. So I thought, who would be the perfect group of people to test this tool on? My academic colleagues. They all are such big supporters. Their team, Susie. They knew I was doing my Ph.D. and so I had over, like, seven couples, my colleagues and their partners. And after dinner, everybody's a little bit happy and drunk. And I brought out dessert, and I said, will you guys try my test? Will you try my test? And I gave the values bridge on paper. Okay, now it's a souped up digital thing on paper to the couples. And couples were all sitting next to each other, and we were doing it actually on paper. But I guess it was a. It was on a digital thing because their scores came out. It was like on a very. It was prehistoric, the way we were doing it as we were first testing it. And they got their values, and then they also got their val. Their authenticity gaps on everything. And, like, I realized this is just something you never do at a dinner party because couples were getting the results back and they were comparing values, and I was like, oh, man, I wouldn't want to be in the car ride home with any of these people. But worse than that, one member of the couple would get a score that showed that they were absolutely living their values to the T. And the other member of the couple was like, not living them at all. So they'd have this really bad negative authenticity score. And I remember there was like this very cool, quiet, sullen moment where one member of this, like, one couple, the husband said, well, my gap is like 98%, but her gap is 0%. And then there was like this pause where I thought, I am the stupidest person who's ever lived, because it was getting very awkward. And he said, yes, we're definitely living my wife's dream of a life. Ouch. We have the functionality now because I lived throughout at that dinner party and everything, so that if you check the boxes, your values come up alongside your partners and you can compare where the conflicts and harmonies are. And I'm glad they're having those conversations I had. My daughter and her now husband took the test together and they said, hey, mom, come interpret our results for us. And we just took the values bridge. And as I was walking towards them, I was like, please, God, let them have the same values. And as I was walking toward them, my daughter said, is it weird for two people to have the exact same top six values? And I was like, thank you, God. So do you think that.

Relationships work better when the two people have the same values?

Yeah, that's the only thing that matters, really. I mean, a lot matters. But your values are, I would argue, number one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you and your husband have the same values?

Definitely. Yeah. I would say he, shockingly, because, you know, he's a man and I'm a woman. He's more like family values than I am even.

Yeah.

And I am, of course. But in a, in an ideal world, he would be a stay at home dad.

I think it happens all the time.

And I would never.

Right, that's right. But I bet your values are very similar. You would know it if they weren't. I think it is. I think there's this lie about opposites attracting.

Oh, my God. I always say this. Yeah, it's the biggest lie. There's actually a different quote and it's opposites attract, then attack.

Yeah, well, that's true. And I don't get it. I think that opposites attract is what you say when you're with the wrong person. Totally different values. And you want to explain it to the world. You go like, opposites attract, you know, but it's like, no. And I've seen couples where every bomb in the world could have dropped on Their head and like infidelity, a child going off the rails, like everything that would break up a marriage. And they've stayed together because they've had the same values, especially this value of eudaimonia that we talked about, self care, which also includes fun. I know a couple that's been to hell and back, but they both really like sex and fun and that. I've asked the wife one time, how did you possibly stay together? And she said, sex is great and that actually, like, they both really care about it and it's carried them through.

But that's shocking for me to hear.

I. It was shocking to everybody who knew them.

Right.

Because he, like, had a big public affair and everyone knew about it. But they also had a really high value of family centrism. They had four children, and they both put those children before almost anything else. And they stayed together for the child. They're still together.

Wow.

But, you know, that's the kind of couple that if in two or three years we heard they were getting divorced, everybody would say, what took so long?

Yeah, I. I don't see sex as enough of a value to.

Yeah, but I think they also. Family centrism going on.

Yes, yes. You need more than that, for sure.

Yeah. But it can be. It can. I've definitely. You know, when you look at this values data, you kind of see it all.

What do you think is the least important value or couples?

I'll tell you one more important value. There's a value called agency, which is how much you must make the decisions, how much you have to drive. Like, I'm the boss of me. And I think it's very helpful when one person has high and the other person has low or you both have medium. But. But I think two high agency people together is quite.

Mine was so high when I took the test. I mean, I was like seven. Seven, seven.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, Yes. I think that you had high agency. And then where do you think your husband would be?

He's like, what? Whatever.

My wife says, okay, all right. So that's a. Your high agency and he's lower. And I think that's a good recipe for it. They all matter. You know what else really matters? Beholderism. Beholderism is the value about how much you care about thing, how they. Things look like, including yourself. And if you've got one member of the couple who really cares about how the house looks and how they look and they want to spend on the weekend, they want to go shopping for the perfect couch and then they want to go to the gym. And the other is like, why do you care about that stuff? That can really cause friction. And then they end up calling each other names. Like, the person with high beholderism calls the other person lazy and slovenly. And the other person calls the person with high beholderism. They call them, like, superficial and narcissistic. Whereas in fact. And maybe, I don't know, maybe it's true. But what they really have is a very different value around beholderism. I think another value that really matter, they all matter, is affluence. Unless you both have sort of a medium desire for wealth. Like, okay, you can kind of agree we both want enough to get by + two vacations a year if you've got somebody who's really got driving value of affluence. And the other is like, I don't care about money. You know, how much you want money affects every single decision the biggest you make.

Yeah.

I mean, you must see so many couples with problems around this.

Oh, so many. So many. But I would say for the most part, people are aligned. I would say the relationships where people are less aligned is the woman wants the man to make more money.

Right.

And he is happy.

Right.

I rarely see the man wanting the woman to make more money. But I also have very driven friends who are very ambitious. My girlfriends.

Right.

And so maybe that's why. Why it's funny, last night I was like, we were getting ready for bed, my husband and I, and he was like, you like me a lot. Like. And imagine, like, you know, he was. That sounds like he was saying, like, some. I'll just finish it.

Yes.

He was like. He was like, you like me now? Can you imagine if I made. Because he's in a startup right now. He's like, can you imagine if I made money like you? Like, he's like, how cool would that be? Like you would like me even more. And I was like, I. I honestly. That sounds amazing. That sounds incredible.

I think that you're so right, though. The problem happens when one member of the couple wants the other person to make money to meet their value. Like, you can't shove your value about affluence into somebody else. They don't want to make money. And money, you can't say, like, make it right. I mean, you could do it, but it's a recipe for complete disaster.

Totally.

Yeah. I think another one of the values that really causes problems is cosmos. Is this is the value that reflects how much you believe in religion and God.

Okay.

Your faith. And if you've got a really faithful person with. Without faith, that's tough.

Yeah. That's my sister and her husband, actually. He is very faithful and. Or is that the word?

Yeah. Or religious.

Yeah. He doesn't make any religious.

Religious and faithful.

And she had to, like, meet him at that level. Whereas my husband and I are very reform with kind of all of that.

Yeah.

And I. I think that's really interesting. Definitely took a lot of work on her part.

What if she didn't believe.

She believes in him.

Yeah.

Like, that's her religion.

Right.

You know?

Yeah. When I met Jack, he was not faithful. I'm a faithful person. And when I met Jack, he wasn't faithful. And my. Our pastor said, we don't typically marry somebody who's not faithful. And he said, but she's God. I want. He wanted it, and he got on a road to get it. Like, he was like, I. Susie, what. Those feelings you have? I don't have them now. He was culturally Catholic. He. But he wanted to know what I knew, and he was determined to get it because he liked. He liked going to church. He just didn't understand what was being said. Like, he was like, wait, you know, Joseph's not a saint? And I was like, oh, God, let's just start at square one here, you know? And just he. He wanted to know more. We were lucky in that way. But if you've got. That's a. That can. That can totally take apart a marriage. Typically it shows up before the actual marriage.

Oh, yeah. Well, especially when you're planning a wedding. Right. And you've decided it's a religious ceremony or not. And if it is, who's marrying you? And sometimes you have to meet with that, you know, priest or rabbi, whoever it might be.

Yeah. You know, the one that kills it before you get to the altar is family centrism.

Oh, yeah.

Because typically couples that are engaged talk about how much they want a family. And unless somebody is lying, you straighten that out. And I've seen it break up couples in that somebody wants a big family. They want the life centered on the family, or one member of the couple is bringing a big family to the picture. Okay. And it's going to be all about the family. And I think that with my daughter who just got married, her now husband comes from a small family. And at first he. He was like, wait, why do we go to your family's house for every, you know, every holiday? Like, he just didn't understand how important family centrism was. To her. And then he. I don't know, we hypnotized him. You know, he got it, and he came to be friends with all of us. And at the wedding, he gave a toast where he said, you know, I fell in love with Eve and I didn't really care if she had a family or not. But then I got this family, and now they're my family. And it was a. This was a case of a person who had zero family centrism discovering what it felt like and actually buying into her family centrism. And now he's. And now the kids accuse me of him being my favorite. And he kind of is.

I love that. I love that. I just did an episode where I talked about the difference between a boyfriend and a husband. And your boyfriend complains about going to family events and sometimes tries to get out of them.

Yes.

But your husband complains about them and goes to each one. He has to, no matter what.

It's not. It's such a great point. It's not negotiable because you can't have a family event and the husband does not come correct.

But you're. But that's almost. I'm saying, like, they're modeling that behavior before they're your husband. That's the difference.

Yeah. You do not want that. That's so painful. And in fact, a partner that wants to take you away from your family of origin is a red flag to me.

Huge, huge red flag. But how do you feel about two people who are family centric and have big families coming to the table?

Yeah.

What are you doing?

Like each other. Like, I so adore my daughter in law's family. I just do.

I love.

I love her mother. We have a separate relationship from her. I think that that's really good. But if you've got families that are competitive with each other, which happens, it's dangerous and it causes, you know, the collateral damage is the kids. Kids can pick up on it. So when they're really little, like, one thing I make a point of doing when I'm with my granddaughter is talking about how much I love her other grandmother, who she calls nanny. I say to her, nanny's one of my favorite people. I love your nanny because I don't want her to ever feel as if there's any competition between the families that the. Her two nannies, who she loves so much, love each other. I think it's a great gift you can give.

Yeah, that's really smart.

That did not happen in my family. And maybe I'm Once again, trying to rewrite the script, which is what we all do all day long. So I think that you make me think about how every single one of the values shows up in a relationship so much. I honestly think by accident, I developed a dating app. Because if you think about it, if you just sat there, like on the second date and went down the values or values bridge, what you would find out, I mean, you'd probably just. That guy would have never broken up you on 27th birthday because you would have kicked him to the curb long before.

Oh, totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, it would be an amazing second date situation for sure.

I would try as an experiment because my daughter is still dating, and tell her to bring it to it. And if the guy runs or the girl runs when you start talking about values, red flag, correct?

100%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's hard to talk about values because you know why people don't know what values are? They think. They think there's two values. They think values are family and financial security, or they think values are virtues. But everybody agrees on virtues like kindness. Yeah. Who's gonna say no? I mean, but when we talk about things like money and family centrism and how much you care about how stuff looks, I almost think you do need a checklist. I mean, I kind of. I love Zauner Garg so much. The comedian. Because, like, when she played place that ad. I mean, now it's a famous story about how she placed an ad when she was looking for a husband. And she was, like, very specific. I want to see your tax returns. You have to be ambitious, as I am. I mean, she was very specific. And I think that in our heads, we know our values and what we're looking for. And then the whole dating experience is one long compromise. Like, okay, I'll compromise on this, I'll compromise on that. You know, and you finally. You either it breaks up or you think, okay, this is where I draw the line in the sand. He has to love my family or he has to. He has to stop ghosting me every two weeks or whatever it is. And you finally get pushed to the edge, but sometimes you don't, and you end up in a marriage that is just one long series of you ceding your values to another person.

Yeah, but that is a great example of why you need to have the tough conversations before it gets.

How many people have the tough conversations before?

Not enough. I had a. An amazing divorce lawyer, Laura Wasser.

Oh, yes. Famous. Yep.

Yeah, she's incredible. And she came on the podcast, and we talked about all of the conversations you need to have before you get married.

Values is number one. I mean, values. Did she say values?

Values. But we got as specific as, what are we going to do with your mother when she's sick?

Yeah, I think that's fantastic. I actually think that couples, before they get married, should sit across from each other with a piece of paper and a pen and not be able to see what the other person's writing. And they should both write down the number that is enough. The amount of money. That's when they look at each other and say, we have enough. They should write it. They should fold the piece of paper in half, and then they should hand each other the piece of paper.

Oh, that's fun.

Because imagine if one was like a million dollars and the other is, like 10 billion. That there. Everybody has a number in their head. No one likes to state it out loud because there's, like, a faint stink off of. Really off of wanting too much or wanting too little. But I think couples should still sit across from each other or sit across the room.

I'm gonna do this tonight with my husband.

Do it tonight. Sit across, like, go to another room. So just write down the number, the true, honest number. Don't try to hedge it. Don't try to fuzz around it.

We have to have this conversation with each other. What is the number where you'll say, I got it. I don't need any more, and you should both do it. Fold it in half, hand it to the other person in your privacy, open it up and look at it, and then have that conversation. That's. That's a conversation you gotta have. I mean, if you're already married, have it anyway, because that's a bridge you've gotta build.

Yeah, that's a good one.

That number in your head drives so many conversations and so many decisions, but why not just state the number?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that.

All right, well, we've decided how to solve all divorces by having this little, like, numbers conversation. I love so much talking to you. You have so much knowledge. And there's, like, when a loving, intimate relationship ends, I. I don't know. I. There's other hurts. There's the hurt of losing somebody, and part of that is, you know, the pain of. Of losing a romantic relationship. But when it ends and it's not that way, it's. It's so bad, you do anything to avoid it. And I do think the conversation we're having just around values, like, as you said, that's what else is there. Right? It's. It is a way of kind of either anticipating what might go wrong or fixing what is already wrong, which is good work and work that we all have got to be paying attention to before it gets too late. I love talking to you. I cannot recommend your podcast enough. We met at Acme. It's binge worthy. It's addicting. So I'm really glad to have you here. And you have also. We met at Baby, which is now your whole new foray into talk. Talking about motherhood.

Yes.

So all the moms who are listening. We met at Baby. And then you do this food thing.

Yeah, that's just a fun thing on the side. I love to eat. Yeah, I love to eat. And we were just talking about how all these great restaurants are opening on the Upper east side. So keep coming.

Yeah, I know, I know. A good restaurant is a beautiful, beautiful thing. So we can find you all different places. Thank you. But the most wonderful thing is that we found you here this week. So thank you so much for being on. This has been becoming you. Lindsay. Thanks.

Thank you for having me.

And this show is produced by the amazing and fabulous Mikey Robley, Ala Zinn, Issa Lampson, and Hallie Reiner. And if you liked what you heard, and I'm on my knees praying that you did, follow me at Susie Welch across all my platforms, Everywhere, Instagram and LinkedIn and even Tik Tok. Although somehow Tik Tok doesn't seem to work for me. And don't forget to leave a rating and a review below because a lot of people have. And I love you, you people who have. It's not all my children, because there's just too many of them. I will see you next time. And until then, keep becoming.

Sa.