To Be, or Not to Be… a Mother: That Is the Question

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Cover the outlets and hide the scissors and heat up the diaper wipes. You know, babies here. Okay. Just kidding. There are no babies here today. They're not even dogs here today. But speaking of babies, we're having a conversation today about motherhood. As in motherhood, yes or no? Yikes. And spoiler alert. I am going to cry when I answer this question. Now, you may be wondering why we're talking about motherhood this week on the pod. And the answer is, it's another mailbag version of the show in which our wonderful listeners chime in and talk back and otherwise pick my brain, such as it were. Welcome. Welcome. I'm Susie Welch. I'm a professor at NYU Stern School of Business, and I'm the director of the Initiative On Purpose and Fleet flourishing there. And I'm your host. This is becoming you. I hope you'll stay with us for the next 25 or 30 minutes or so, because we have four fantastic listener questions this week. To get to the first, I've already mentioned about the decision to have children. Hard yes or no? This is very big stuff. We'll also hear from a listener seeking my views on staying in a job for financial reasons. She describes her situation as complicated. To which I say, maybe we have a listener talking about job hunting with family centrism as a number one value. And finally, we're going to hear from a listener who takes issue with my take on manifestation. I don't know if you caught that one. So, again, welcome. We're talking fast and taking no prisoners on the podcast today. Okay, maybe we're just talking fast. I always talk fast. Regardless, thank you for being here today. I love you and I am so happy you're here.

Hi, Susie.

My question is, how do you decide if you do or don't want to be a mother in a world where it looks so effing hard? Ah, the timing of this question is surreal to me. I actually received this question late at night, and I already have answered this wonderful listener to the podcast personally. So please know that that's happened, but let me answer it right here, because a crazy thing happened before we sat down to make this podcast, and that is that I was sitting in my not far away from this very podcast studio, and my FaceTime rang, and I was in the middle of a meeting with Dustin and Maddie about a really important thing that's coming up, and it was my daughter with her partner. And I said, oh, I'm in the middle of meeting Eve. Say hello to Dustin and Maddie. And she said, mom, make those people go away. And we have something to tell you. And I, of course, immediately suspected what it might be, because I wasn't born yesterday. And I asked my colleagues to go out, and then they went out, and I closed the door and went back to Eve and Cowe, and their faces were exploding with joy. And I started crying before they even told me. And I'm going to cry right now that they've gotten engaged, and they were filled with joy, and they're a beautiful couple. They're going to spend the rest of their lives together. And I wept. I'm still going to cry about it. I'll probably cry again tonight. Look, motherhood, parenthood, it is the hardest thing you'll ever do. There are days where you're going to wonder why you did it to yourself. And you're going to miss your old self. You're going to mourn your old self. You're going to wonder where your old self went. You miss her. But there is a reason people keep doing it. And I had one of those reasons today when my beloved daughter, and believe me, I've been to hell and back with that daughter. But then you have these moments of exquisite joy and happiness that I think might only be possible in a moment with your child. And they are so much a part of you. And the intimacy you have with a child is like no other intimacy. So I want to acknowledge two really hard things at once. I want to honor this question. This question is real. I know so many young women. Many of my students, many of my students are in their 20s, and they have pulled me aside and they have said, why did you do it? And then our argument is, the world is really, really hard right now. Why would you do this? It's never been harder. And when I hear that my own son said that to me with his wife before they decided to have children. And I said, geez, thank God not everybody felt that during the plague or none of us would be here. The world has always been hard, and raising children has always been hard. And I agree there are much harder things about it today than there have ever been. Like, one thing I didn't have to deal with, the parents have to deal with right now, is technology. I never had to separate my kid from a screen. I don't know how you parents do it. It's brutal because they're all addicted to it. I never had to deal with cyberbullying, so I agree it's harder now than it's ever been. I agree. And so I get it. And you could just say, I'm not doing it. I like my life too much. And if your values are. If your number one value is agency, then I would question whether or not it is something for you. But I want to tell you not to discount the sweetness that awaits you. The moment that I just had. I just had this moment. Let me just play it for you a little bit. I was sitting there. They started to tell me. She held up her hand. There was the ring. They told me the story. I said, how did it happen? How did it happen? And she told me the story of how they swam out to a rock, and they were stunning themselves. They were on vacation together. And then he pulled out a scallop shell, and he opened it up, and the ring was inside. And he asked her. They're very unconventional people, by the way. They're both artists. They're about as unconventional as two people can be. And he still said those words. And then I was. We all cried, and then we got all their siblings on the phone, and then the siblings congratulated them. And it was me again with them. And I. I talked to them about what marriage means and why I think they're the perfect couple. I talked to them about their love. What I've seen them go, who else do you do this with but one of your children? And they were both saying, thank you, Mom. Thank you, Mom. And you made this possible with X, Y, and Z. And I said, no, you did that kind of joy that comes from that kind of intimacy. That's what awaits you if you get through the tough parts. That's. You know, there's a reason that you see parents weeping at weddings or at bar mitzvahs or at graduations. All right? So I'm going to make a plea for you. Unless your values are really firmly. Unless family centrism is sort of number 15 and agency is number one. Again, I urge you to take the values bridge to find out what your values are. I want to tell you one final story about parenthood to make the case for it. It takes place when my son Roscoe, my oldest son, went off to college. And he was a tough kid in that he felt everything very deeply. He had anxiety. He was a great athlete. But the sport that he chose was wrestling, which invol wrestling, a very beautiful sport, but a brutal sport in that it requires that people do it to starve themselves. So he was hungry for around eight years. His college essay was entitled, you Won't like me when I'm Hungry. And it really told the painful story of what it took to be the great nationally ranked wrestler that he was. And so it was tough raising him because he was very smart, very anxious, and very hungry. You wouldn't wish that on your best friend. And I had a lot of tears. I remember one time being in church and my pastor was giving a sermon that said, God gives you the hardest thing in the world to hone you. And I thought. And I actually thought to myself, the hardest thing in the world is that boy, Roscoe. So it was tough. He got into Stanford, and we were, of course, very proud of him. And I brought him out there by myself. And it was time for him to unpack his dorm room. And we met his incredible roommate, Tommy Mina, and remained his roommate for four years. And we met his parents. And then this voice of God came on over the loudspeakers in the dorm, and it said, all parents, it will be time for you to leave soon. You must leave in 15 minutes. All parents come down to the courtyard. And I thought to myself, wait, leave? I actually have to leave my firstborn son at college. And I was, like, starting to feel, like, this very desperate feeling in my chest because I realized no matter how hard he was, I didn't want to leave him. And then they said 10 minutes, and then they said five minutes. And at two minutes, all of the parents went down into the courtyard. And we were standing there, and I was standing next to my son. He's much taller than I am. He had his arm around my shoulder. I felt very small next to him. And we were all sitting there thinking, why are we all in the courtyard? And at that moment, this line of, like, 15 very beautiful young people who were not freshmen, they were just sort of other Stanford students came in in a line, and then they blew into the little tuning pipe. Boop. And then in perfect a cappella, they started to sing Bridge Over Troubled Waters. I am still not over it. You know, when you're down, you know I will be there for you. And they were singing this for the parents because you wouldn't be there dropping your kid off in college unless, you know, you had at some point carried that kid on your back. And I had, because it had been tough with Roscoe with all the stuff in his big, beautiful brain. And this song was for the parents. It was the goodbye farewell song. And it was that I'll still be there. I'm your bridge over troubled waters. It was reminding us we would always be there for our kids. And when I tell you that everybody was sobbing, I Mean, Ross was sobbing. I was sobbing. At one point I kind of looked up and I noticed everyone was sobbing. And then they sang the song and they said, hug your kid goodbye. Time for them to go out on their own and for you to go home now. And I got this gigantic hug, sort of enveloped by my very big boy. And he just said, I love you, mom. I wouldn't be here without you. You are my bridge over troubled waters. And I hugged him and kissed him and I went into my car. I was supposed to go out to dinner with a really good friend that night and her daughter was also in that dorm. And we called each other on her phone and said, not happening. We were so just completely overcome by it. And I sat in the car before I went back to the hotel and I just wept joy and gratitude and sadness for saying goodbye to him. But I ask you this. Who does that happen with except for a child? Okay, look, this was a very, very hard question. I get it. It may not be for you. I may have just told you the story about Roscoe and you may have said like, yeah, great story, not worth it to me. I want my life. I want to go on vacation. I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to give up. What a kid makes you give up. I get it. I don't judge you. No, I don't. It's your decision. But I ask you just to put these thoughts in your head when you're thinking about how hard it is, just remember it's also really good sometimes. And just to remind you, my daughter Eve just got engaged. So. And I'm feeling so good about it. All right, decide away and thank you for that fantastic question. So real.

Hi, Susie, My name is Ann Wilson. I originally made the decision to get into the field I'm in because of my parents expectations. And then I've stayed for several years despite spite ennui. But now I've got this niggling feeling that there's something else that I should be doing. But I continue to stay in this job because of economic security and because of my fear of the unknown. So I would love to hear your thoughts on that because it can be quite complicated.

It is complicated. Oh my God. This question. You know, I get a version of this question every day and basically you get onto a career path and you stay on it and you stay on it and then you start to make money at it. I don't know. Some of you may have heard our very wonderful three part series with Kristen and Max, if you haven't heard it, we did the becoming you process together. These are two alums of it. Highly recommend if you have not heard it. But at one point Kristen said, you know, she got a temp job in advertising and then 20, you know, 20 years later she was still in advertising. And she goes on to say, I was making great money. And that's so often how it happens. And we got a listener question. One time somebody said, you know, 25 years ago I got like a summer job in hospitality industry and here I still am. And I think we're hearing that now. And what this person is asking, like, yeah, yeah, Susie, you always talk about reinvention, but what happens when reinvention means giving up the financial security that your current job has given you? And guess what? I have an answer for you. The answer is that you got to know your values and we got to find out where affluence is as a value for you. Because sometimes people themselves in a position and they're like, yeah, the money's great. And then they take the values bridge or they actually sit down and think about what their real values are and they think, yeah, you know what? Actually money matters less to me than freedom or money matters less to me than voice or any number of things. Eudaimonia. All right. And so yeah, money matters. It matters to all of us. The question is, where is it in the rank order of your values? I mean, one of the reasons I made the values bridge was that I kept on asking people, what are your values? And they all said the exact same thing. Family and financial security. And my question, first of all, there's 15 values, but also what order are your values in? And that you got to find it out. You can't keep guessing. It is complicated, but in a way it's kind of simple. You find yourself in a job, it's not the job that you really think is your purpose. Should you reinvent? The answer is it depends on your values. I'm sorry, I'm some kind of broken record with this, but if I had this individual in the studio with me, I would say, well, how important is money to you? Could you live without these five or six things? And guess what? If you were to find out that affluence was your number one value or number two value and it's above Eudaimonia and it's above agency and it's above all other values, then stay with your job with the high pay and accept the trade offs you made that you're not working in your purpose. I suspect that every investment banker has done that. Okay, there are people, they have high value of affluence, most of them. I mean, how many people really love financial instruments? Okay, well, the four people who actually out there who love financial instruments can go work in investment banking because they have intellectual stimulation. A lot of other people who are in banking, and God bless them, we need a banking system. I have no judgment on them, but they're in banking because they can have the house in Greenwich that they want, and that matters to them. And that's their. They're not hurting anybody power to them. Just if affluence is not your top value, doesn't mean you should hate on them. So I would say it's complicated, but you can simplify it to repeat my point again by figuring out what your values are. And if you find out that affluence is in the top 1, 2, or 3 higher than other values that you have been repressing, then by all means, stay in your job. But if you say, reinvention's calling me, and then you find out affluence is down at 6, 7, or 8, the only thing that is stopping you is just what stops people when they have to jump into cold water, which is that the first few seconds are tough, and then it gets kind of bracing. And then you kind of think, why don't I do this every day? I mean, back in the old days, Jack and I used to go swim in the ocean in Nantucket every single day this summer. It was sort of this thing that we were like, yeah, we're going to swim in the ocean every single day. And we had this joke. Jack would go in first because I was such a big wimp. No one else would be there, by the way, in June and July because it's still too cold. And then he. We. We would say to each other every single day, after a few minutes, you don't even notice, right? So after he would say that, I would dive in, and then I would say to him, after a few minutes, you don't even notice. And that's sort of what it is with reinvention. And I have never met a person who went through reinvention because they were called to it, who regretted it, never said, gee, I wish I could go back to that job where I really wasn't fulfilled. Never heard it. Is it hard sometimes? A lot of times. Sometimes you have to make some sacrifices. But for people who really are, who are all in and they know their values, it's worth it. So that's what I would say to this wonderful listener. Thank you for writing. Find out your values and figure out if you have built a life where they're really, they really are what you are living. Let us know what happens.

Hi, Susie. Here's my question for you. How would you approach a very high family centrism value while job hunting? The fear being it can come off as not wanting to be all in when joining a company.

I love this question. I know you think I love all the questions, but obviously I'm answering the questions that we love. So let me start, start by saying so here's what this person is asking. She is stating that she has a high value of family centrism. My gut feeling from this question is that it might be number one. Family centrism is the value that you organ your life around. Your family considerations. You think about every job offer, you think about every vacation, you think about every, you know, decision, where are we going to live? And so forth. First and foremost, your screen is your family. That's high family centrism. And she's saying, okay, now I'm job hunting. I've got this high value. How do I talk about it? Because they may hear me talk about it and then they may think, well, this person has got another priority besides the work. They're not going to be all in. And, you know, I've been a boss and so I'm going to have some empathy here for the person who's doing the hiring. I think she's not wrong that if when you're hiring and you hear somebody present and say, my family comes first, you think, oh, okay, can we accommodate that? Now listen, there are some companies that are much more accommodating for people who have high family centrism than others. My advice to you would be to focus your job search on companies that you are well aware are accommodating to people with high family centrism. Typically, these are larger companies that are more established because they've got more gifts. You know, I, I run a small startup. There's like nine or 10 of us. Every single person is, is, is putting out 125%. We work 24,7. I had a long call with my CTO on Sunday. Okay? That's the way it goes in a startup. And if anybody had very high family centrism, it would be hard to work here. But we don't, we are very clear about it when we're interviewing people for the job. And so I, if I were you, I wouldn't go looking at companies that, or you already know, don't accommodate high family centrism, and then try to sort of be cagey about this value. You've got this value. You know it. And there are some companies that are built for it. They actually kind of advertise themselves as being family friendly or that they are, that they're the right fit for people who want work, life balance. I wouldn't try to, you know, be fuzzy about the truth. Your family comes first. Power to you. You've made that decision on your values. Your first value is not work centrism. Your first value is not achievement or affluence. And I know many people like one of my children, my son Roscoe, has family centrism as his number two value was non city. And he has built a career that allows him to live out his full family centrism. It has definitely shown up in the trajectory of his career, but that is absolutely a trade off he's willing to make. So bottom line, don't hide your family centrism under a bushel, but go find the bushels that are copacetic for people with high family centrism. I wish you the best of luck. I'm so glad that you know what your values are and your family's lucky to have you.

I have manifested so many things in my life, and I've also taken action to receive them, whether something as simple as following my gut, finding the exact jacket I wanted by going to a section of the store that felt right, or changing a detail on my resume that landed me my dream job. I feel like your content and a sturdier exploration of manifestation can overlap. It could be quite powerful, too. We should never discount the value of our own inner wisdom and intuition. It would be a great topic to discuss on your podcast, if you haven't already. Anyway, appreciate your thoughts.

Okay, thank you. Look, this listener is responding to my minor rant in a previous podcast about manifestation. It came up in the podcast where my daughter Sophia was on with me, and we were actually talking about something entirely different. We were talking about two books that I love. And tangentially, Sophia mentioned that she thought manifestation was dangerous. Dangerous. That was her word. And her specific issue was that women are sometimes told to manifest a husband or a partner. And a lot of times, you know, that just doesn't happen. And that this can be really hurtful, you know. And at that point when she said that, I voiced my objections to the version of manifestation that's, you know. Well, it's Kind of magic, you know, the kind of manifestation that says if I picture myself landing my dream job every day, the universe will make it happen. Now, I want to say I realize that there are other forms of manifestation. Why do I realize that? Because so many people wrote me and I realized that there are forms of manifestation that are based on psychological and behavioral research. And that the proponents of this kind of manifestation say that focused attention really does shape your behavior, which increases your chances of achieving goals. And that by clarifying what you want and what you believe is possible, you're much more likely to make to take aligned ends, persistent action. So instead of saying the universe is going to make it happen, you'll say something like, by visualizing my goals and clearly believing in my goal, my main goal, I'll stay motivated, I'll recognize opportunities, and I'll make it real. So let me say that my objection is to the more pop culture view of manifestation where you just put your dreams out there and you wait for them to come true. And I'm not going to veer from thinking that that is not woo woo silliness, just my view, okay? But this other kind of manifestation, which I think is probably what our listener is referring to, where you get clear on your goals and then you align your actions, yes, that's absolutely fine. Becoming you does that as well. Except for saying get clear on your goals. It says, get clear on your purpose. They're not terribly different, in a way. And then it tells you, becoming you does at least that the way you should go about making your purpose real. And that you start to figure out your values, you have to figure out your aptitudes and your economically viable interests, and then you plot a path to reach that, a journey to reach that purpose. So I don't think they're gigantically in conflict, that sort of second, more robust form of manifestation and what becoming you is all about. But again, I'm going to push back and say if the kind of manifestation is you just sort of like, put it out there and your gut's going to kind of bring you there. I'm going to say, I don't know if that might just be luck. And I have a problem with gut. I've gone off on gut in this podcast. I don't want to go off too much on this podcast here, left, right and center, but gut is a wonderful thing. I'm not going to tell you not to use it, but it's just pattern recognition. And sometimes you find yourself in a situation and you don't have Any dots to make a pattern out of or you've never been in that situation before. So I like you to deploy both your gut and your brain. And so I am a big proponent of that. Becoming you is about collecting data. Look, there's a lot of systems out there. I don't want to denigrate anybody else's system about how they do this life and how they do life in general. So take and pick what works for you. I hope this clarifies my views on manifestation. I know there are tons of people who believe in manifesting. You know, I myself personally, people ask me if I manifest. I pray so I've not tried manifesting, but, you know, here's where I'm going to end it. You know, the world is made up of all types and there, thank God, there is room for all of us. So that's it for today. I loved all of our questions. You know, should you have kids? That first question took me back. Should you stay in a job for money? So real. Should you admit your family centrism in your job hunt? I hope I helped by coming at that from the boss's point of view for you. And finally, should you manifest, so should you. Well, I'm going to manifest. Everybody really liking this podcast today. I'm manifesting you. Loving it. It. I'm loving you back. Thank you for being here. I'll see you next week. This is Susie Welch and you have been listening to Becoming you.