13 - The Truth About Medical SEO with Jordan Fowler

Today's show is about SEO. What is up, my friends? It's your boy, Troy. Welcome to a fresh episode of the Practice Growth Machine podcast, where we teach you the persuasion tips and strategies you can use to command higher prices for your premium procedures and fill your surgery schedule. Something a little different for you today. A recording of a conversation I had with a friend of mine, Jordan Fowler, from Moon and Owl Marketing. Jordan is one of my go to guys when I have questions about SEO and ranking and search engines and what the heck Google is doing. We were due for a conversation and I thought, hey, this might be something super useful for the podcast. So we recorded our chat. I asked him about all kinds of different things regarding SEO from what tactics are working, which ones are not. How do you know if your SEO is actually doing good without being an SEO expert and without spending hours every single month trying to figure it out? And so this, we cover all this and more in this episode. I think you'll find it highly beneficial. A lot of good tactical and strategic points that we cover throughout this conversation. So I hope you love it. Take some notes, listen to it twice if you need to. And without any further ado, here is my conversation with Jordan Fowler from Moon and Owl Marketing.

All right, Jordan, what's going on, man?

How are you, Troy? It's good to be here today.

I'm doing good, man. I'm doing good. You know, you are my go to SEO guy when I have SEO questions. We were due for a meetup anyway, and I thought, hey, let's, you know, let's chat a little bit, record it for the podcast because I've got a lot of SEO questions and I, you know, I talk to my clients a lot, and SEO comes up fairly frequently, and I love having the right answers to those questions because I know this is an area where, where there's a ton of misinformation out there. I'm sure you can, you can speak.

To that, but snake oil salesman, Voodoo, swing a chicken above your head. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Yes.

Yeah, 100%, man. And you know my feelings on SEO. Like, I don't like SEO. I do. I think it's important. Like, it's obviously a thing. If I need to find a lasik surgeon in Dallas, I'm not going to search, you know, cheeseburgers in Kentucky. Like, I mean, Google serves up search results based on the way people search, and we want them serving up our clients pages, number one for those specific things that we're searching for. But I know there's a Lot more to it now, from what you've taught me, than just a few keywords here and there and hoping and praying and snake oil, like you're talking about. So I want to dig into some of that today. But before we get into that, I'd love to just lay some foundations. We might have some folks who are listening who don't know a lot about what SEO is, or maybe they have a general idea of it, but we can solidify that some. So I'd like to start there, and then we'll get into some of the more complex and nuanced questions as we go. If that works for you.

Sure, sure.

Well, go ahead and just tell me, man. Let's give us a little, like, your overview of SEO. What is SEO?

Well, I mean, at its base level, if you don't know anything about it, it stands for Search Engine optimization, Right. And at its most basic level, it's just getting people to discover you online, right? And then to start to trust you and like you. And then from that journey where they type something into Google or Bing or something like that, to end up selecting you as a solution to their. To their problem or situation. Like in the case of your medical clients, right? Somebody says, I'm sick and tired of these glasses fogging up when I go outside or my eyes getting dry. And so they're going to go search like Lasik doctor, whatever city they're in, or best Lasik doctor, whatever, and you want to be present there. And a lot of people will say, well, I'll just use paid AdWords. And all the research is showing us that a lot of users are skeptical and they won't click on the ads. And in fact, even the people that do AdWords say 59% of your traffic will never click on an ad. They're just skeptical. So being ranked in organic is really important. And so not only do you want to pop in on the search results, but you also want to be seen as the most credible. And you're going to hear me use the word Google a lot. But yeah, there's other search engines like DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, all those. But Google still gets 90 to 92% of all searches. So it's definitely the behemoth in the field right now.

All right, that makes a lot of sense. So a lot of focus on Google just because that's where the volume is then.

Yeah, until, you know, until they mess up more or get demonopolized or, you know, whatever. That. That's where you got to play right now, right?

Right. Love them or hate them, that is they own the sandbox. Right? So that's what I. I tell my clients that. And, you know, Facebook, like, Facebook, can make some stumbles, but Facebook is the place to be when we're doing, you know, our social ads and things, because they've got the biggest audience, the most traffic. They're. And companies like Facebook and Google are resilient enough and big enough at this point to stick around and to take a few hits. Right? So if you want to play the game, then that's where you need to be. So I'm not trying to take us off on a Facebook tangent here. Let's stay focused on SEO. I'm just curious, man, because I've known you for a while. I know what you do at your firm for your different clients. But I'm curious, can you explain a little bit about why you started focusing on SEO? Because I know that's a big part of your business now. You've really grown your efforts there. So what made SEO turn into a focus for you?

Well, we were really reluctant to get into SEO, and we used to do more of the other side of it, and we would just farm out our SEO to somebody. And we kept getting people clients that we would come alongside and they would be working with an SEO agency or hire one, and then it would go sideways really quick and they would end up having to fire them. We found out through that journey there was about three different kind of SEO categories of companies, if you would. The first one is like the everything is a secret voodoo type. They won't be transparent. They just say, trust us. They won't tell you the action they're doing on the site or the strategies they're implementing each month. So the client's dumping all this money and saying, what are you guys doing? And they would always say, it's a secret, as if the client has time to reverse engineer the SEO practices. Right. Like, anybody that has a medical practice or a business doesn't want to be doing that. They just want the results. The second one we saw was the rock star type of agency. And this is where usually it has a really charismatic leader. And that guy or gal is more concerned about getting invited to speak at Moz or one of these huge SEO conferences. They would rather be seen as a guru among other SEOs. And so they're really concerned with self promotion. And usually as a result of that, you know, the clients take a hit for that because it's, you know, their primary objective isn't like, I'm going to drive traffic. Their primary agenda is the self and self promotion. And then the third one is, and this happens a lot with a lot of agencies that either won't highly focus on SEO and just kind of have it as a side add on or whatever, but they don't really know what to measure. And we see this a lot like an SEO company would come back to one of the clients we had and say, look, we ranked you on this term, you're number one. And if you didn't look deeper, you wouldn't realize, like, nobody's searching for that term. It's just there's no search. You know, best left handed Lasik doctor, you know, with bald New York. Okay, yeah, you rank for that. Nobody's searching that. Right. So we want to. What we like to do too is we don't just want people to watch rankings. And so what we measure at Moon and Owl is traffic, organic traffic that comes into the site that converts into patients or clients. And we actually try to keep our clients from what I call serp, watching where all they're doing is watching the search engine results and that kind of thing and really move up a level to organic traffic. And is organic traffic going up because of these SEO efforts and are you getting conversions from it or on the other hand, is it going down? And so we just worked with those other three types of agencies long enough and our clients kept going. We're sick of this. Why don't y' all do SEO? And I would say, no, no, no, but we trust you. Why don't you do SEO? And finally, we just relented and we're like, all right, we're gonna do SEO. And in my personality, so I'm gonna do something, I'm all in. And so we went all in. I mean, I've got guys reading Google patents to see what's coming. And so, you know, we're really, really deep into that environment now.

Seems like the kind of thing you have to be deep in if you're gonna do it right. You know, I talk about there's a few areas of marketing where you want someone who's literally a nerd about it, and it just consumes everything on it to stay on top of it. SEO seems definitely one of those categories for sure, right?

Like, some practice might say, hey, I'm going to do my own SEO, right? And yeah, there's some basic things you can do in house. But for medical clients, they're in a category Google calls your money or your life, medical, finance, legal, health, and Google's super picky about these kind of sites because your site can literally screw up somebody's life, right. If it puts out false information or whatever. One of the challenges to do it yourself SEO by a company that says, hey, we're going to do it, is the Google bullseye is always moving. So unless you have just an inordinate amount of time to keep track of all the changes, you've got to be looking at patents, look and have enough data coming in that you're seeing algorithm shifts. So that's where having a broader client base helps in a competitive market. To be honest, you're just never going to DIY do it yourself SEO outrank somebody who has a solid expert doing SEO for them, just like me. I wouldn't go, hey, I'm going to go. I mean, if I could save enough money, I guess technically I could go buy a Lasik laser or any other medical procedure thing and try to do my own eye surgery, or buy some dental tools and try to do my own tooth extraction. That would be absurd. Typically, you need to let an. Once you get to a certain level, you need to let an SEO expert handle your SEO and just make sure it isn't one of those three types of bad SEO agencies we talked about above.

So you talked about those SEO agencies and you mentioned that you'd have clients who would have relationships with SEO firms and then they would go sideways. And I've had that experience as well. I'd love for you to dig in a little bit and explain why. Why SEO firms either fail to get results or why SEO can seem to change overnight. Because I think those are kind of two sides of the same coin. Right? So talk a little bit about that.

Yeah. So a lot of times what happens is these SEO agencies become one trick ponies. So they will find one tactic that works. And yeah, it works great, maybe for a really short season. And then the algorithm switches or updates and the next thing you know, organic traffic's tanking, rankings are tanking because they're really one trick ponies. One of the things we've done is develop something we call the SEO wheel. The SEO wheel has 10 different elements to it. They're pretty broad and they're pretty unique that way. Let's say Google DE emphasizes one element. You still have nine supporting elements that are really, really strong. And while we figure out, okay, they kind of replace element number two with this or they change their weighting, you don't just fall apart because we're not a one trick pony. In fact, we'll put together a YouTube video for your listeners that's kind of exclusive to them. And we won't really put it out publicly because we don't want other SEO agencies stealing our methodology. But we'll get something on our site that talks about the SEO wheel and gives them a video overview of what it is. And we can put that@moonandowl.com PGM and it'll be accessible for your listeners there. But we haven't found, yeah, we haven't found many agencies using this holistic approach. When we presented this to one doctor recently, his mouth dropped and he said, I've never seen such a clear presentation of an SEO strategy. And this was actually a surgeon who knew a lot about SEO. And that makes me happy for us. Right. As an agency, but it also makes me sad for the state of SEO that, that it's not approached as scientifically and as data driven. And it is a little more of the snake oil hype kind of thing. It was both exciting and kind of sad for us to hear that he said, oh, I've never heard it presented like this before.

Yeah, well, that brings up a good question. Because part of just my goal in my consultancy is, I mean, we do services for clients, but we do a lot of advising as well. And I want to empower my clients to be able to ask the right questions and understand, like, I don't expect my clients to be SEO experts, but they need to be able to ask the right questions when they're choosing an SEO firm or speaking with whoever's doing their SEO so they can understand if it's working. So I'd like to dive into that as well. Why don't you go ahead and. Well, just tell me. Let's just start with what are some questions? Let's say that someone's going to select an SEO firm, right? What are some questions that they can ask and what answers should they expect so they can very quickly understand, does this person or does this company know what they're doing as far as SEO goes? Or do they fall into one of those detrimental categories that you talked about earlier?

Right, right. So, I mean, the number one question I would ask is, how are we going to measure success? And if they answer anything other than getting patients into your practice, that that's not the right focus. If they start with ranking, if they start with brand awareness, all that's great. But the end of the day, the measure of success for any medical practice is patients through the door. And then my next question would be in how Are we going to measure that? So they need to have a deep enough understanding of Google Analytics, conversion, funnels, et cetera, et cetera, to track that. And I know, Troy, you coach all your clients to, when they get a lead or a call to be like, hey, how did you hear about us? So we like to correlate that data that the practice gets with the hard metric tracking tools that we have in place, you know, to cleanly measure that. And then my. My next question would be, well, what are you going to do tactically to help increase traffic? And that's where you're going to discover how transparent the agency is going to be, like, voodoo agency. And they're going to be like, no, we can't tell you. You know, just traffic's magically going to show up on your doorstep. That's not our approach. We walk a client through the SEO wheel and we say, here's exactly how we're going to do each element specifically for you. And even our budgets are line items so they can see exactly what they're getting. Again, nobody wants to reverse engineer this. A physician or a dentist, they don't want to reverse engineer. So I'm not worried about putting that information in their hands. And then the next question I would ask is, what is your track record for increasing traffic? And what case studies do you have? And whether you have, you know, whether they have them formally written out or can simply share them verbally? And you want to say, hey, what tactics did you use to get those results? And, hey, are you going to be using those on our account? And of course, budget is a consideration, right? If they pitch out a case study on somebody spending $15,000 a month on organic SEO and your budget is 2,500, you're obviously going to see some difference in results. And then the final thing I would kind of ask is, like, how do you stay abreast of the changes going on in Google and other search engines? And for us, we're in these exclusive mastermind groups. I can use no other term to describe it, but the nerd of nerds. These guys are literally reading and dissecting Google patents to see what's coming. And so you want to kind of know where they're getting their information from and where they're learning. And then for our clients, we always run the full SEO wheel. So the only difference is the cadence at which it happens. So someone with a huge budget might getting 10 articles optimized per month, and somebody else with a lesser budget might be getting like one a month. But they're still getting great articles, etc. And it's still running the whole wheel. The only question is cadence. A lot of other SEO agencies won't do this. When they get a smaller budget, they start truncating the wheel, which is not a good idea because it leaves you vulnerable to algorithm changes.

Okay, so you're still doing all the pieces. It's kind of like, are you doing those pieces with a 9 millimeter or a bazooka?

Yeah, the frequency. Yeah. Really? The frequency, which we do them. Yes. But they all get done. It's just some get done over a longer period of time.

That makes sense. Well, let's talk about subject matter expertise, because this is a big one that comes up, right? You'll have agencies or people who are focused on a specific subject matter or a specific vertical. Right. Maybe it's medical or Lasik surgeons or plastic surgeons or what have you. And that's what they do, you know, day in and day out, all day long. And then you'll have others. And I think this is more of your firm. Your firm, you can confirm this, but I think you guys have different, you know, you have different clients in different verticals, different cities, different, different products, high ticket, medium to low ticket, all kinds of different things. I think there's value to both, depending on what you're trying to do. As it relates to SEO, is subject matter expertise on a particular vertical, is that an added benefit or in a way, could it even be detrimental to the results that you're trying to achieve?

Yeah, and that answer is not definitive. It kind of depends. Right. Like, I know of a company that only does Lasik, Dr. SEO, but if we analyze what they do, you know, it's like it's 2005, what they're doing, tactics. So, yeah, it helps to have some experience in a niche, but it's not crucial because again, if, like, I would rather know as an SEO, I would rather be an expert on Google and learn the subject matter than be an expert on the subject matter trying to learn Google. Because, yeah, no matter what, man, like, the SEO wheel approach works no matter what you hook it up to, because it's what the bot and the algorithm are looking for. So I was, as a previous agency, we did all medical, and then I left to start Moon and Owl. And I wanted to diversify the client portfolio. And what's been cool about that is there's also cross learning that applies when you have a diverse portfolio of clients. You can say, wait, that worked great on this energy oil client let's utilize this in medical and track the results and see what happens. So I would much rather my SEO firm be a Google expert and learn my subject matter or bring in parallel strategists for my subject matter. Then get somebody like that other agency I was talking about who knows Lasik inside and out, but doesn't know Google as well.

That makes sense. That makes sense. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about on the client side, right? Let's say that someone has an SEO agency or they've hired someone and that agency has been working for a few months. If a client wanted to quickly go and check their SEO, what would be the best way to do that? Because you talked about not, you know, not just going to Google every day and googling key terms and seeing where you are as the only measure of success. So what would you say to a client if you said, hey, look, you got, you know, you got five or ten minutes. Do this once a month and you'll be able to keep pretty good tabs on your SEO without having to learn a ton of SEO things yourself and without having to take just hours and hours out of your life.

Sure, sure. So Google Analytics, right? You should have that hooked up to your account. If you had a website built and that developer didn't hook up Google Analytics to your account, like never use them again, Right? So because that's just 100:1 to have it hooked up and you don't have to have a ton of goal conversions and stuff set up for that. Literally you go into your Google Analytics, you log in and then on the left hand side there's a little button that says acquisition. So click that, then there'll be like a drop down and you click all traffic and then you click the word channel and then organic. And that's going to show you your organic traffic. And you can go up in the upper right hand corner and dial in like you want it for the last month, you know, whatever. And there's a little button you can click, click. And you can either set it to compare it to like the previous month or the previous month a year ago. And so you can see how much you've grown kind of year to year. But that's super easy. So Google Analytics acquisition, then traffic, then channel, then organic. What is that? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 clicks and you'll have a great view of what's happening in the world of organic on your site.

Okay. And you like looking at it from that holistic approach more so than just one individual keyword? I Think is what I heard you say. Is that right?

Yeah, because it all works together. Right? You know, I think the 80%. I've heard different statistics, but anywhere from 70 to 80% of Google searches, this is absurd if you think about it, are unique. In other words, they haven't been put together in that construction before. Right. And so what happens if you just watch the keyword, you know, Lasik, Dallas, but you might not be then picking up on, hey, because we rank for this, we're also ranking for Lasik surgery options, Dallas. That's a longer tail keyword that not near as many people are going to use, but people are going to use it. And so I want to see what's coming in total from organic. And then I can break it out into branded, like people that already knew our practice name and unbranded, like Bridge, icl, those more transactional informational terms where they don't know the brand name. And they come to us that way because those are important too.

Okay, all right, that's good, man. Let's talk a little bit about the SEO tactics again, because I had a question on how people do SEO, and it seems like a lot of SEOs focus on activity on the client site, whether that's building links within the site or using a bunch of different keywords to try to get rankings. And maybe this is where your explanation of the wheel comes in a little bit. Should. Should SEOs be focusing a lot on the client site activity or is there more to it? Are there more areas where SEO should be conducted off site?

Yeah. So on page, SEO is what you're talking about. That's what it's called, is where you work with the site itself. So on page is like building your foundation of your house. If your foundation is bad, your site's not done well. No matter what you throw at it off page, it's just not going to. It's not going to, first of all, rank as well and perform as well. And second of all, probably won't convert as well. So if I can borrow a biblical metaphor, you want to build your house on the rock, not on the sand. Basically, there's the new frontier in search, and it's called entity strength. Let me kind of explain what that is, because this is where a lot of SEO agencies are missing this with this shift to entity. So back in the stone ages of SEO, the way you ranked a site was you just built a billion backlinks to the site. It didn't matter what the quality of the page. The backlinks were Coming from basically the site with the most links was going to rank best. So guys would build link farms and all that stuff. Well, obviously Google got smarter, they changed things up and they said, hey, we're going to start giving a rating to the page that links to you. So the stronger the page that links to you, the more that link is going to count. So obviously a link from Time magazine or Huffington Post became better than a link from Billy Bob's medical blog. Then another thing started happening. A few years ago, guys started to try to game the system by creating lead gen sites, for example. There wouldn't even be a real practice. They would just try to rank Chicago Lasik surgery, for example, and they would take you to a landing page, capture you as a lead and then sell you as a lead to other docs. Or that happened in the, particularly in the blue collar service home industry. Happened a ton of. But why? It didn't happen near as much in medical and it happened in house services. Google made kind of across the board big shifts. And now Google's looking at your practice and it's saying, what is this as an entity? In other words, is it a real business with multiple online presence? And they're looking to see how strong and legitimate your entity is in medical. It's looking at something it calls the EAT score, which stands for expertise, authority and trust. And Google's wanting to see that. Obviously your physician is highly credentialed that they're active. And so there's a lot of ways we can work to do EAT Score. But the best way to do EAT score and to raise to get that on pace strong is schema. Schema's huge now. And schema is some code that, that goes into the header of your site and it does two things. Number one, it disambiguates you as an entity and says, hey, we are the real entity and we're credible and we're going to tell googlebot all these things about us. I like to use this analogy. If you're old enough to kind of remember going to the library. I'm 50, so I had to go to the library and there was a card catalog and when I walked up to the card catalog, each card told you basically more about the book before you ever went to the, you know, the stacks or the bookshelves and got it, who the author was, what year it was published, how many pages does the book have, where was it published? Does it have color pictures in it? And then it has a number, the Dewey decimal, where you can go find it in the stacks. Even without having the book in hand, I could tell a whole lot about the book. And is this the book I'm really looking for? Well, kind of like the card catalog of the website. So when the Googlebot crawls it, it says, hey, this is where this is located. This is the guy. The physician's credentials. Here's their other properties they have. And most other SEO agencies right now we're finding they're doing very minimal schema work. Like we'll look at a medical sites and their organizational schema might have like five or six things in it and we're putting like 30 different things in there to really strengthen that entity.

Oh, wow. Okay.

Yeah. And so that credentials your expertise and uniqueness. And then Google just like gobbles that up because now they're shifting away. Backlinks still matters, but it's looking for that intimacy strength. And then what you can do is start to do your off page stuff and with syndication networks and some other things like that that are basically amplifying, if you would, the strength that you have on your page. So I always use the illustration. If I sit in my living room with an electric guitar, not plugged in anything, and you sit two feet from me, you'll hear me play it. It'll be kind of changy, changy. But when you get the off page, right. That correlates to the on page. It's all of a sudden like you took your electric guitar, basically turned it into a Marshall amp stack and cranked it to 11. So everything starts to gather steam. And so we always start with on page to make sure it's strong. But we're always paralleling things off page as well.

Okay, let crank it up to 11. I like that.

Spinal Tap. Spinal Tap.

Spinal Tap.

Yeah, it goes to 11.

So. All right, so you mentioned that Google doesn't pay as much attention to backlinks, that they're still important. But that sounds like it was one of those one trick ponies at one point where it's like, well, let's shoot a bunch of links at this site and rank it. And now I've even had clients who've gotten in trouble because they have backlinks that are coming, I guess from low quality sites and they've been penalized from Google for that.

Right.

Are there any other things that maybe are more old school SEO thinking that folks tend to say, well man, we really need to be doing XYZ for our SEO, but in reality they just don't matter as much, if at all. Or they could be actually hurtful.

Yeah, I think like keyword stuffing. Right. And we still see some people doing this where they're trying to. You know, there's one company that works with a lot of medical practices and we still see them keyword stuff that died a long time ago of just cramming in every variant of a keyword that could pop up. Lasik, Dr. Dallas. Dallas Lasik, Surgeon Lasika, all crammed into one article with the headers. Google's way smarter than that. Now you just have to make sure your SEO agency isn't stuck in a time machine. Are they reading the newest patents? Are they in leading edge think tank groups that are front edge and tracking algorithm changes? As an agency, we do that and so we know when the trends shift.

I got a couple more questions as we wrap up here. We got a few minutes left, but I wanted to ask you about the terms black hat SEO and white hat SEO. That's something that I've heard a lot. I'm sure some of our listeners have heard that as well. What's the deal with black hat and white hat SEO? What does that mean? What do we need to know about that?

So basically the premise is that white hat is good SEO stuff and black hat is bad SEO stuff. But as an agency, we don't use those terms. We just refuse to use them. And here's why. They just aren't applicable. So Google has a policy and it basically says this. All you're allowed to do is to put content on your website. That's it. And then it has to get naturally discovered. So technically, the moment you publish a blog or an article and you go on your Facebook page and say, hey, go read my blog and you put a link to it, according to the letter of the law, you've technically broken Google's terms of service because you just promoted your contact in some way that wasn't finding it. So now everything instantly has, there's no such thing as white hat. Everything's already moved into gray hat. Right. At least.

Okay.

Basically by everybody that's doing any SEO is by definition using a black hat Tiffany technique. So we just got rid of those terms and instead we used the term instead of black hat or white hat, we used the term work hat. And we asked these questions anytime we're going to try a tactic or a strategy, does it work now to increase results? That's our first question. Right. So we were thinking, how's it going to work? This is how it works. Yes, it works now to create results number Two, do we think it will work into the foreseeable future based on what we already know about Google and what it's saying in its patents? That's why it's kind of important to know what's coming and look forward and to understand natural language processing, artificial intelligence, those kind of things to go. Yeah, it works now. And even if they do this, this and this, this will, this will work. This is a good strategy. And the third thing we ask is, hey, is there any current risk to using this tactic and if any, to what degree? We want to know that. Right. And do we foresee any possible risk in the future based on what we know? So again, yeah, this could work, but it could be very short term. No, we don't want to do that. We want to have foresight. And then what we do, obviously there's again, everything's gray hat at least. So there are some risks at anything you do. But what we ask, the fourth question is how do we neutralize or heavily mitigate any risk that might exist? So does it increase results now in the future? Are there risks and how are we going to mitigate those? That's how we define wcat. We don't bow down to everything Google says because at the end of the day, here's the one thing Google wants to do, Troy, and people have to understand this. They want to make money, and the only way they make money is through paid search. So they are shifting things around to where they make money. And so when they give SEO advice, they're not giving it out. So your organic rankings will come better. They are, do not take these glasses off. They are giving out that advice so that their revenue goes up. So we don't buy everything Google says. We prefer to go in and do heavy testing, obviously on some testing sites and some safe sites. And we don't always, you know, we don't always bite whatever fruit Google hands us and says, go do this. You know, we want to test and see if there's ways that we can leverage Google to our advantage.

That's excellent. So you go out and you'll test new things in low risk scenarios and then you figure out if it's working or not. And then you'll go and apply it to your clients.

Yes. And those mastermind groups that we're in is where a lot of that happens. So we're able to cross reference with other high end thinkers in SEO and be like, hey, we're seeing this. Are you guys seeing this? When two of the three of us can repeat the Experiment, we say, yeah, that's the way we're going to go now.

Nice. That's awesome, man. Well, look, this has been super helpful for me, dude. I appreciate you making the time to come on. I learned a lot today. I'm hoping everyone who's listening took notes on this. It's definitely worth going back and listening to again. Jordan shared a lot of just straight up tactical information and things that can benefit you as you're whether you're trying to find someone to do your SEO, you're trying to make sure that your current SEO firm is doing what they're supposed to do. I really appreciate you sharing just your different approaches to the way that you attack SEO, test things, validate them, and determine your results. One thing just to summarize here that Jordan said is focusing on patients getting in the door and having surgery is the ultimate focus point for any marketing that you do for your practice. I mean, yes, of course it's important to rank. It's important to have a website that shows up in the search results. But ultimately we're not just trying to get you to rank. It is a we are trying to get people in the door to come in and have surgery with you. And so whether you're doing SEO or any other marketing services for your practice, just make sure that that is the North Star because that's the only thing that matters. You can't take clicks to the bank and do your payroll. Like you can't make your car payment with website clicks or traffic. You do it with patients who come in and give you their hard earned money for your expertise. So Jordan, man, I really appreciate the time today. Where can people go and find out more about you, what you guys do? Give us some websites or whatever you want to share.

Sure, yeah. We're happy to help in any way we can. A lot of times a starting point for us with someone is they want us to do a, we call it the lucid process digital audit. And we'll go in and do a full SEO audit of them and their competitors and find out the you are here point on the map and here's where you need to go. And even if you just have questions, we're glad to answer them. The best way probably to reach us is to go to our website, which is simply moonandowl.com so moon like in the sky and spelled out owl like who now.commoonandowl.com and then we'll also Troy, put that SEO wheel video up@moonandow.com PGM so your viewers can come take a look at that. So we help anyway. You know, any way people need help, we're here to serve. We don't really do packages. We tailor to what the client needs. So we're happy to help it in any way we can.

Awesome, man. I appreciate it. Jordan, Be well. It's good to talk to you, brother. I will talk to you soon. All right.

Talk to you, bro. Bye.

All right. I hope that was awesome for for you. I learned a lot throughout that conversation. I hope you did as well. And remember to head over to moanadowl.com PGM for practice growth machine moonandowl.com PGM for the free video that Jordan mentioned during our chat. All right, that is it for this week's episode of the Practice Growth Machine podcast. I wish you well. Go out there and grow your practice.