EP 60: From Terrible Interviewee to Interview Coach: Tessa's Story

I spent years as the nervous interviewee who completely froze. Here's how that turned into a system that's helped thousands of doctors land their dream jobs, and you could be next. The Academy waitlist is now open. If you want structured support for your consultant interview, join via the link in the description.

Coming up in this episode, we're going to hear Tessa's own origin story. We're going to hear about a duty of candour example with a nice twist. We're going to break down the question, what's your legacy going to be? And we're going to talk about keeping your game face on in the interview. Welcome back to this week's episode of Ace Your Consultant Interview podcast. It's great to be here. How are you doing?

Very well, thank you. How are you?

I'm very well. So, let's hear how it all began. Why don't you tell us? Take me back to the beginning. What were you like as an interview candidate?

Well, the thing was, when I start— when I— well, not to the very beginning, but when I first started trying to get a pediatric training job, I could not get a job because I was so bad at interviews. And it was very much like I'd just see how it went on the day. So I didn't really understand what I was doing, what I was going for. And when I went into the room, it just didn't come out of my mouth the way I had thought it would. I didn't know how to answer some of the questions. I blanked on them. It was horrible. And I actually had several attempts at getting into pediatric training and was not successful because my interview technique was so bad. So I had to do some non-training posts for a few years. And eventually I did get into training, but it took me a really long time. And I understand when people get knocked back from interviews, how that affects them, because I carried that feeling with me that I was a terrible interviewee for years. I had to apply for other jobs as I went through training because the way it was, was I had to keep applying. And so I had loads of interviews, and each time when I went in, I just knew I wasn't a good interviewee. I just, well, I felt I wasn't a good interviewee, and I wasn't. So sometimes I would get them, sometimes I wouldn't, but it was really just the luck of the draw on the day. And so it's, but then when I came to my consultant job, my consultant interview, I knew I needed to not do that and not leave it to chance. And so that's when I really like decided I had to work out how to get control over it. And then that's when I started to develop the program that we run in the academy. And so these, yeah, I think just that feeling of being able to have, feel more control over it and knowing how to prep makes a massive difference to like just letting it, you know, to the lap of the gods as to how the questions will fall on the day. So that's kind of what led me to develop the Academy, and obviously we've had 2,500 people here now, and it has evolved as all these students have gone through, and we've improved it. But that's— I don't want people to have that feeling where it's totally outside their control and they're freezing and stressed during their interview, and that's why we It is really interesting because I think that, that version of you just doesn't compute with what we know now.

But it, it's interesting because I think a lot of people probably think either you're a good interviewee or you're not.

Yeah.

But actually what you're saying is you can train yourself to be a good interviewee.

Yeah.

It's not just something that's natural or not.

No, I don't think any— it's not like an inborn trait. Um, it's not, you know, you don't come out the womb suddenly a great interviewee. So you just learn it. It's a skill like anything else. And I think people who get knocked back for jobs in interviews often, like I had then, you just think, well, this— I'm just bad at this. And people do tell us when they come in, you know, to the Academy, I'm terrible at interviews. You're not terrible at interviews. You just haven't learned the skill yet. And you can very quickly turn it around to become someone who sees themselves as good at interviews once you learn the skill. And We often relate it to just the same as any other skill that you learn in medicine. When you start, you're not great. No one's born great putting cannulas in, doing procedures. It's something that you learn and you build mastery of, and that's the exact same as what you can do with interview skills.

So I think what we're saying is, if you're feeling like you're coming to the end of your training and you're not ready, there's no way you could possibly go for an interview, It's actually not a sign that you're not good at interview. It's just a sign that you haven't been trained how to do it yet.

Yes, exactly. That you can turn things around. Okay, should we get into our student question of the week? So this is the— this is a question from one of our Academy students, and this question is, how should I enter the room? Should I shake their hands? What should I do when I go into the room? It's that very first moment. What do you advise people here?

Again, I get asked this a lot, and I think it's just a general sign of nerves and, you know, what will I do? This is going to be a strange situation. Who will be sitting where? What will it look like? What, you know, will there be a table? All of this kind of stuff. And what I normally say to people, and I know what they actually want is a solid answer, but look, You're a highly skilled communicator. You meet new people every single day. You walk into new— into rooms and meet new people, new patients, new colleagues every day. You know how to do that. And it'll be really obvious when you walk in. If people stand up and hold out their hands, you'll shake their hands. If they're all sat behind a table and, you know, your chair is, you know, 10 feet away, it might be a bit more obvious that there's— that this is not a handshaking situation. But I think, What you just gotta do is just walk in there, smile on your face, be warm and friendly, and say hello to everyone, and then you'll know what to do. It'll be obvious at that point.

Hopefully. It's reminded me of a bad interview experience of mine where I was, this was sort of mid-career, it was in Sydney actually. I was going for an interview and I was so, I did the opposite of what you are saying, which is I didn't think, Tessa, you know what to do, 'cause you know how to say hello to people. I was like, Go in and shake all their hands. You have to go in and shake all their hands. And I was so focused on doing this, and the tables between me and them were really— it was like a double table, so it was quite broad. And the first woman who was chairing it, she reached out to shake my hand, and I grabbed it with such enthusiasm, and I was so far away from her that I basically pulled her towards me, and she sort of face-planted onto the desk. That was the very first person whose hand I shook. It was not a good start to an interview. I made a sort of nervous joke about it and we kind of moved on. But yeah, so don't do it at all costs is my life lesson to you. Yeah. And also, I think if you're overly focused on that, it's actually just distracting you from what you're really worried about, which is answering interview questions.

Yeah, exactly. And I think with some of this interview stuff, really try not to overthink it. And that, that's one of the things. Just, just be your nice, normal, warm human self.

Yes.

And then it'll be absolutely fine.

Yeah. Um, probably to mention though is that, yeah, you remember that there's all, all people on the panel. Um, so you are kind of saying hello to all of them, even though it might be the HR. Sometimes the HR person will come out and take you in. Um, and then you're trying to just, you know, you're being interviewed by a panel of people. You look at them, you smile, shake or don't shake depending on the circumstances, and then you're going to get on with the main event.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, let's talk about our golden example this week. This is an example from one of our students about duty of candour. What example have we got this week?

Okay, so duty of candour example. I'd done a right hemicolectomy in a patient, um, who'd had previous pelvic surgery, and I identified a small bladder injury near the end of the procedure. I called my consultant, and I got urology in to repair it intraoperatively. And then I did all the formal documentation and so on. When the patient was suitably recovered, I went and explained it to her.

Mm-hmm.

And then I made sure that I went back again later when her daughter was there, and re-explained it all again so that the patient also had opportunity to ask further questions. The patient recovered well, and the student then reflected that actually that immediate transparency and the clear communication and the bringing in of the family member really built trust. What do you think?

So, I mean, it's definitely duty of candour. I suppose the only question is how distracting is it that they were the person who caused the bladder injury in the first place?

Yeah.

So normally when we say, like, we say choose a duty of candor example where it wasn't your mistake, because I think you end up spending a lot or feeling like you need to spend some of the answer explaining how the mistake happened, explaining whatever the circumstances of the bladder injury were so that they don't think you're a bad surgeon. And which I understand why you would feel the need to do that when it's your mistake. But that actually has nothing to do with why they're asking you the question. So it kind of takes up time of your answer talking about, overexplaining a mistake that isn't helping the question, which is, what's your duty of candor experience? And so it's much better to separate yourself from the mistake and you do duty of candor for someone else's mistake effectively. I would guess surgeons have to do duty of candor for their own mistakes. So it's probably less likely that you would do it for someone else's. So I think it becomes— obviously we're not surgeons, but it probably depends how big a deal the bladder injury is or how much of a mistake it is. You know, is it just, yeah, that can happen and it's no big deal, and then you wouldn't feel the need to over-explain it? In which case, maybe. But if it's something that you feel like you have to reassure them that you're actually a safe pair of hands, Then it's distracting you from answering the question. So yeah, that— so you might want to pick a different duty of candour example. What do you think?

Yeah, I think— agree. I think it's better if the mistake was made by somebody else and you're just doing the duty of candour. What I do really like about this is that reflection on the communication part with the patient and with their daughter. And I think what you've demonstrated is that you're somebody who really values that open, honest communication, making sure that patients genuinely have an opportunity to ask questions around this, and that their family members can assist with that. And that really helps you to answer that part of the duty of candour question, which shows that you're somebody who can safely deliver the conversation. So I love that bit. I suppose that— I suppose maybe it's it's just about reflecting, you know, as a surgeon, is this kind of what would normally happen? You would do your duty of candour if this kind of thing had happened, and can you explain it in a way that doesn't make you go, but this, but that, but, you know, but do trust me because I am okay? Yeah. Then it's okay, because there's lots of good stuff in here. There's just that element of risk around the fact that it was your mistake.

Yeah. And I think, you know, it's never black and white whether examples are good to use or not to use. What you're trying to do is weigh up all of these things and fine-tune it and just have thought about it before your interview. So, you know, this is a very common question to come up, so you should have one ready before so that you're not just thinking of it in the moment, but you've actually considered it. And yet, you know, you're giving your— your panel is a panel of humans. They'll all have their own opinions as well. But you want to have just weighed up these things before the interview. So you've given it a lot of consideration.

Absolutely.

Now we'll go on to our interview question. So this is an interview question a student of ours has got recently, and the question is, what would you like your legacy to be years or decades later when you leave this job? This is like a whole existential question here. Yeah, I think this is quite a full-on question.

I do too. I do too. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, back to your story about, you know, moving from, you know, face-planting the interviewer on the desk to actually look what you've achieved now. So, how are we gonna answer this question?

So, it's really, I think this is really hard, even like thinking about it for me in my job, like, you start to think about it, it's like quite a deep question. They need to, yeah, I don't know, what would you—

I suppose, so I suppose there's something about how, you know, how do you want to be remembered? But it's got to be more than, I just want to be remembered for being a good doctor, somebody who really cared about my patients, 'cause like everyone wants that, surely. I think there's probably an opportunity to put in, you know, some of your USPs. you know, I want to be remembered for some— as somebody who instigated whatever particular pathway or whatever, right? You know, or even, you know, you could say, I'm at the moment, I've been working on X. I'm hoping that, you know, in, in 5 years' time, people will still remember that.

Okay.

Um, so, so I would probably— I would use it, a USP, and I'd probably try to use a mix of sort of clinical and non-clinical stuff. I would also, I suppose, just thinking about how genuinely how I would like to be remembered, as somebody who does the right thing by my colleagues and looks after my team, I would probably put something in there about that.

I think so, because it's a bigger— because it's saying decades later, it is a bigger—

Big question.

Yeah, I want them to remember the audit I did. In 30 years' time.

Yeah.

Or you're like, yes, I want to be remembered as someone who helps you achieve the 10-year plan. So I think you do need to go a bit, yeah, into like what you're saying, like someone who made a diff— I don't know, yeah, made a difference or whatever. And yeah, I think it's the balance of being specific but not too micro-specific with it.

Yeah.

A bit tricky.

Could you, could it be something about sort of training and education of, you know, the future team? You know, actually, my legacy's gonna be that the people that I trained today are the great, you know, surgeons, paediatricians, whatever, of tomorrow. You know, a bit cheesy, but actually, it gives you the opportunity to talk about some great education work that you're doing or whatever. I think it's got to be more than just a nebulous—

Yeah, I agree.

You know, good doctor. So I think it is worth thinking about this question. And I think it is, they've asked it in a weird way.

Yeah.

But I think it's essentially a version of, you know, your 3-year, 5-year plan.

Yeah.

You know, what are you going to achieve slightly longer term? So it's a different question to what are you going to achieve in your first 3 months?

Yes.

Or whatever. It, it's a bit of a longer-term goal.

I like the idea of a mix of the specific and the nebulous in some way. Not nebulous, but specific and, and more kind of, yeah, longer-term. Good question. Thank you so much. I'm gonna spend the rest of the day thinking about what, what my answer to that would be. Yeah. And it's also, it is a hard question. And, you know, I think one of the things we often say is when you get a hard question, if you prepped well, you recognize a hard question when you get it. And it's fine to say, wow, that's a pretty deep question. Decades later, that's everyone's big life question, isn't it? So, it's fine just to acknowledge that in the interview as well. They know they're asking you a hard question. They want to push you and see what you come up with. And that's okay to acknowledge that.

Yeah, I think so.

Okay. And let's go on to our interview tip of the week. This is one that we We love, and we talk to people all the time about, it's at the end of your answer, not to make a funny face to the panel to tell them that you don't think it went well.

Absolutely. I've had a few people in mocks in the last few weeks who've, and actually they've been doing quite well, but they make a face at the end that's like, oh God, or they do like an eye roll about, and it makes you think that they think they've delivered a terrible answer. When they actually haven't.

Yep, I know. It's so— sometimes it surprises you because you think the answer is fine and then they make like an eek face at the end and you're like, where did that come from? Like, it shows your inner nerves. But, uh, your whole— the whole goal is just performance. It's a performance for 40 minutes, you know, project confidence and then go and stress about it afterwards. Um, yeah, but yeah, game face, game face is really important.

Yeah, it— I think it really is, because number one, you don't undermine a good answer.

No.

Don't, don't make the panel call into question a good answer because you've made a funny face. Equally, if you've made an answer that's not the best answer in the world, don't then compound it by rolling your eyes. That's unhelpful. Um, you know, if, if you were having a difficult conversation with a patient or family You wouldn't roll your eyes and go, oh, I messed that up, didn't I? You wouldn't. So this is a professional situation. You just gotta keep your professional game face on. Afterwards, you can roll your eyes as much as you want, but you've gotta be outside of the room.

Also, your perception of how the question's going, I don't think often bears a lot of resemblance to how it's actually going, 'cause people tend to be very self-critical and You know, you remember the things that go wrong. You focus on the things that go wrong. So, it's probably not as bad as you think it is in your head. And so, if you just show them on the outside what you think in your head, it's not doing justice to it. So, yeah, just keep it, keep those thoughts inside until after the interview.

I think sometimes you genuinely don't know how it's going. You know, I've definitely been in interviews where I actually, I can't really judge it. Sometimes I can, and sometimes I, you know, I've been in there and I've been thinking, actually, I'm doing okay here, just, just keep going, it's fine. Um, other times I'm not really sure what happened in the room, and I might get out and I, and I can't even really remember what the questions were. Um, so I think that don't, don't undermine yourself because you might not have a real handle on how it really is going.

Some of it depends on how responsive the panel is as well, because panels, you've got someone who's like smiling at you and like, you know, yeah, you're doing great. And other times you've just got people deadpanning you, or, you know, they're off there thinking about something else, and, you know, whatever it is. And so you can read things from their faces that may or may not be true, maybe encouraging or not. And so, and that, that affects your— you can, but shouldn't, but it could affect your perception of your answer. So, um, yeah, just try and Focus on what you're saying, keep your game face on, and stress about it afterwards.

Absolutely.

Great. Okay, we will wrap up there. Thank you very much, and I'll see you in the next episode.