The Discussion: The Game of Identity: entertainment meets education #25

Welcome to The Future of You. In this episode, I'll be taking a look at our changing identity, and our changing sense of identity and identity exploration through virtual gaming and entertainment for kids. I always enjoy chatting with Jo Redfern, who has just been announced as the new managing director at Wind Sun Sky Entertainment for Kids. Jo has many years of experience in media, including at Disney and at the BBC, where she was head of brand delivering to the BBC's commercial strategy for Children's and Education. And she also has a great podcast with Andrew Williams called Kids Media Club. The next episode of The Future of You after this continues on the theme of virtuality when I speak with Louis Rosenberg, the CEO and chief scientist of Unanimous AI, who has been working on virtual and augmented reality and AI for over 30 years, but now has some serious concerns over identity issues and privacy issues that are emerging from these new media. But for now, tune into my conversation with the ever-curious and youthful Jo Redfern, where we speak about the emergent virtual media platforms like Roblox, the growth of anime and manga and what that tells us about identity today, the Barbie movie, of course, and how entertainment and education are converging to create a new kind of learning outside the classroom. And in the show notes, I'll leave you a link to a report I recently did about the future of the classroom in 2050 and how it probably won't exist. But for now, over to the conversation with Jo Redfern. Sometimes I look at some of the linear TV, old and current, and just think it just seems so flat and dull. I mean, there's a place for it, of course, but I mean, when you compare it to the interactivity that's available on some of these platforms, and you can tell us all about that, obviously. And I'm thinking specifically about Roblox because you and I have discussed Roblox before, and I know you're, you're well versed in it and quite the expert. I wonder if you can just kind of compare for us, compare and contrast the linear environment versus that interactive environment of Roblox and what this generation are able to do and how they're able to explore it.

Linear still has a place. It's a smaller part of a kid's media diet. And the reason being, because like you say, whether it feels flat or not, to me it feels distant. And kids are about connection. And one thing that YouTube and YouTubers did for kids was bring them closer. No, you could argue physically closer, but actually it brought them closer to their favorite creators on YouTube. Because it was a very intimate relationship. The, you know, the MrBeasts of this world, or, you know, influencers, it felt like a very personal connection. So it brought them closer. And that's very difficult to affect on linear TV. It used to be that it was on the big screen in the corner of the room and you were sat quite far away. The thing about YouTube is that kids have got phones in their hands. It's a head and shoulders shot of their favorite YouTuber. They're holding the phone closer. It feels like they have a— a much physically closer connection, but then the kind of content and conversations that YouTubers and creators were starting on YouTube felt much more personal and intimate with kids. So that's kind of shift number one. And then with that brings this kind of, again, kids are still social animals. We tend to think that they've all become loners and isolated because of the way that technology is is woven into their lives. That's not true. They're still social animals. If I take my kids as any kind of typical example, they might be sat on their own in their bedroom on Xbox, but they've got their headsets on. They're in a party chat. They're in games on Roblox or Fortnite Creative or whatever with their friends. They're still hanging out. It's not in a park, or it might not be, you know, round the back of the shops like we used to do, but they're still, they're still being social. So again, it's, it's, it's that shift that people often misread, but actually the behaviors still largely stay the same. They're still hanging out with their friends. And this is where Roblox has really come into its own, this, this notion of social gaming, you know, that unlike some of the big console games, you know, the Call of Duties or whatever, where it's very mission-driven, you get in there and you've got to focus and you've got an endpoint to try and reach. A lot of the experiences on Roblox, and there's a reason they changed the terminology at Roblox from games to experiences, is that some of them are just predicated on groups of kids just hanging out, walking around, doing things. You can go into a Claire's Accessories experience and go and try on earrings. You can go into another experience and you can, you know, all play at being a strongman and see how, you know, you can lift different things of varying weights. I mean, You know, some of it, it's very hyper casual gameplay, mainly because it's predicated on just being in there with your friends. And that is a really interesting opportunity because it's not the kind of gaming that you and I think about when we think about gaming. And that takes a mindset shift for creators and IP owners. It's a low-code platform. So the barriers to entry to creating on Roblox are relatively low. So there are heaps and heaps of experiences on there. So it, you know, whilst you can find data on the popularity of the big ones, there's a huge long tail of much smaller games. Similarly, because under-13s make up such a large proportion of users on Roblox, it's quite difficult to get data on, on those. Although Roblox is at pains to say that the 17 to 24 demographic is the largest, is the fastest growing demographic on platform. But when you look at the headline figures, I think, you know, as around May 2023, it was 66 million daily active users on the platform, and around half of those are kids. So it's a big proportion of kids that are on the platform. But again, because of the, the lack of data around the users because they're kids, and also because of the number of experiences on there, you know, there are there are genre types of experience on the platform. You've got obbies, which are obstacle courses, which was a huge genre. You've got escape is kind of a big genre on there. Horror games have enjoyed a real resurgence on the platform, very often, you know, based around toys, you know, demonic toys that come alive in the toy factory overnight, you know. So there's a huge number of things on the platforms. I've seen some great, more educational games. I've seen games that are set underwater that are about, you know, the oceans and teaching kids about that. You know, such a hugely compelling platform. You know, educational experience on the platform, huge area of opportunity in my view, and one that I think Roblox could lean into more. Obviously, it's in order for this platform to survive, they're chasing ad dollars, which is why I think they're promoting the 17+ audience, 'cause they can attract ad dollars. But in terms of kids, a real opportunity for quality-crafted educational experiences on the platform, 'cause going back to what we were saying before, if consuming content in broadcast is a relatively passive experience, It's still the same. Consuming video on YouTube is still relatively passive, although it's a much more intimate relationship, as we've discussed. What you get on Roblox is that active engagement with a brand. It's immersive. You can immerse in a world, you can interact with characters, and again, if you're interested in learning, you can learn in that way. So it really services that of kids' desire for kind of active learning, and that That's really compelling.

To your point about active learning and also your earlier point about socialising, I was listening to Philip Rosedale the other day and he was talking about these spaces as peripersonal spaces. And he was talking about, you know, you're still within arm's reach of other people and that reminds you to be civil. He was suggesting that just because you're in these spaces, you still show up as, you have characteristics even if you're an avatar. And so you are visually close, even if you're not physically close. Have you seen anything to suggest that that is teaching kids certain ways to communicate that might be better or worse or just different than, than perhaps we did in the completely 100% physical spaces that we might have grown up in?

Yeah, I think there are some things that are similar and some things that are different. You know, again, some of the behaviours, even though they're not done in the same physical spaces still mirror the behaviors of, of kids pushing boundaries, testing friendships. Whereas we used to do that in the playground, or, you know, we'd give someone the cold shoulder or not speak to them. Now they kick their friends from a game or they kick them out of a group chat. So there are certain things that are still the same, they just happen in a different way. But then what this kind of shift in terms of how kids interact in this digital realm, what it does is also it allows them to explore their identities a little bit more. And what's interesting for me is when you, you read about, um, again, this is something that perhaps older generations haven't really considered, is, you know, you go into a platform like Roblox You have your avatar. A staggeringly high number, I think it's around 25% of people, will change their avatar daily. So, you know, it's a huge economy, Roblox. You can go and buy a new outfit for your avatar. You can, you know, you've been, like a new band or a new character, or you've watched the Barbie movie, you go and buy something relating to Barbie. And they will change their appearance of their avatar almost daily. So that gives us a clue as to the importance of their digital identity versus their in-real-life identity. And it's, it's folly to think that kids don't place stock and value on their digital identity. They do. And it's the reason that you've got companies like RTFKT that are creating digital sneakers. When the NFT hype was at its highest, you know, you got digital versions of sneakers being sold for crazy amounts of money. Replica, Gucci handbag models being sold on Roblox for more than the actual physical model costs in a store. But that does trickle down. So the importance of digital identity for kids is not to be underestimated. But also, it's not just changing the clothing on your avatar. It may be that, you know, in a particular day, you, you're feeling like a pink bunny. And today you're gonna be a pink bunny. And actually that opens up a world of possibility for self-expression with kids, you know, and again, even accessibility as well. There was a brilliant campaign that I saw earlier this year about avatars, again, mirroring people with disabilities, different physical forms. There's no end to being able to represent when you can create your own identity digitally, so you can show up as your authentic self, or you can show up as the self that you want to be in that time. And actually, there's endless possibilities for that, that perhaps, you know, we were, we were restricted to changing our makeup and the color of our hair and our clothes. Actually, there's much more possibility to, to express who you are as, as a person and what your identity is and, and experiment with different ones., or maybe have different identities and personalities across different platforms.

Yeah, I think that, I think that's the thing, because I mean, my view that I've been saying for a while now is I think this is the death of authenticity, and it's not in a bad way. It's just that we are operating in a different environment now, and it's a digital environment. So actually, we're profiling ourselves and being profiled all the time. And so that whole idea of profilicity, being profiled, we've become quite aware of. And therefore, we are contextualising our communication much, much more. So, it actually isn't about being the same person and being kind of constrained by consistency to be the same person all the time in every single circumstance or context. It's actually that exploration and that creativity about being much more nuanced, given the context you're in, the environment you're in, and who you're conversing with. I don't know if you want to speak to that or if you agree with that.

I do, I do. And I think that, that this notion of authenticity is just being the one, the, the one version of authenticity that is you is erroneous and being shown to be wrong when you look at kids' behaviors. But again, it's, it, it's not really that difficult to understand when you consider that you might— I have a different persona in a corporate environment than I do when I'm drinking wine with my friends, you know. You— I have different groups of friends with whom I do different things. That's a different part of me. It's no less authentic. So I think if you mirror, if you mirror that onto kids' behaviors, that's exactly what they're doing. And they are picking, and they are developing that nuanced behavior. And they're very, they're very good at spotting when it's fake. As well, you know, they, they get it. And if anything, you know, we need to support them in knowing that— back to your point about— I think they're quite comfortable with having different profiles, even though they might not recognize it as a profile themselves. Different versions of themselves that one no less authentic than the others, but also empowering kids with the knowledge that you will be profiled as well. And that is something to be aware of. You know, I think the most basic example is, you know, a potential employer seeing what you put on Instagram. If you perceive Instagram to be where you're just putting silly pictures of you with your friends, I actually know that other people are making judgments on that. So that's one thing that I'm certainly keen to explore with kids and think that we all have a responsibility to empower kids is to know that actually, It's okay to have these versions of yourself, but as long as you realize that, that other people might be making certain judgments. We were talking about, um, anime and manga just before we started recording. That's, that's one of the, um, for me, that's one of the reasons that it's become so popular, because it's got a very defined identity. They're not, you know, kids who like anime they're not really bothered about being popular. They love the medium, they love the aesthetic, they love the brave storytelling. That's one of the pillars of anime and manga is their willingness to lean into quite challenging topics, grief, gender identity, you know, all of those kind of things that perhaps we in the West, as we've been creating content, have felt it's not our place to go to. Kids are flocking there. And again, I see, you know, platforms and groups congregating around this love of anime amongst younger generations, and that I think tells us a lot about this notion of selfhood and finding your tribe. And actually, it's okay if it's a small one, as long as you're with people who you care about and who you connect with.

One of the interesting things about anime is that when it's understood, it's not the chara— I mean, the characters are obviously of interest and everything is characterful, But the otaku, or the most obsessive fans, are more appreciative of the "karimo," as they call it, the elements that make up a character. And their whole interest and participation is around mixing and remixing the karimo. So, you know, whether it's, I don't know, big pigtails or floppy striped socks or, you know, big eyes or pink hair or whatever it might be, they can mix and remix all of these around. And I think That speaks again to this idea of versioning and reversioning oneself as a character, which is the fascinating thing. And one of the things is, as real people and real kids enter these environments, obviously they end up behaving more like characters because that's what they are. They're the characters in the game of life that is on a virtual platform or whatever. So, I was interested to hear your point of view on anime because It sounds to me like that's not really going anywhere, that's going to stay quite the trend, or maybe even become more reinforced in the future.

Yeah, I think so. I think we're, we're in for a good couple of years where we will certainly see some of the bigger players jumping on the, the anime bandwagon. Whether they'll get it right or not is, is to be seen, because like you say, it comes down to what attracts younger generations to it. And I think what you've just said very articulately is the fact that it mirrors kids' behaviors across all of these platforms. And back to that point about Roblox or Fortnite Creative, you know, there's this ability now for younger generations to mix and remix their identity multiple times a day if they want to, depending on how they feel or the situation or the game or the experience that they're in. And actually, that's okay. That it doesn't mean that you're any less authentic, but you can chameleon yourself across these different states, moods, platforms, games, depending on which bunch of friends you're hanging out with that particular day and what you're doing. And that's okay. And I think that that is something that anime very much mirrors. Like you say, it's the attraction of it's less about one particular character, it's, it's about the group of characters that are represented in that kind of storytelling. And yet, you know, how, how they're flawed, how very often you hear kids saying that they like anime because it, it talks to me, they're like me, their characters like me. That's really interesting because it makes me question where, where did we go wrong when we were creating characters over here then in the last, that the last few years that actually kids are beginning to look to anime and say, actually, no, that's more representative of me and how I feel and my behaviors and my daily life and interaction. But like you say, I think it's the fact that they change too and they can be mixed and remixed. So it does play into this shift away from one authentic self to multiple authentic selves. That shift and that are fluid and change quicker than ever.

Yeah, I just find it endlessly fascinating. I really do. I think it is the biggest shift, and I think for the most part it's going unnoticed, so we need to keep pointing it out. Have you been to see the new Barbie movie yet? We are speaking in sort of after the weekend after it's broken the box office records for the biggest take for any female director, right?

Yeah, I haven't seen it because we were looking actually yesterday for tickets and can't get tickets. It's still sold out. So hopefully this weekend coming I will see it. But interesting reading a lot of the commentary across various social media platforms that I'm on, and certainly from, uh, from friends, the challenge of being a woman, which was, you know, has been a really interesting thing to come out of it.

I wanted to ask you, probably have to wait till we've seen it, but obviously there's been a lot around the merchandising and the links and the relationship with Mattel. What do you think, how would you characterize the relationship that the film on Hollywood has had with the sort of, with the commercial brand and how they've articulated it and deployed it? Because it's been impossible to ignore, right?

It has, and I think, In a way, you know, and I don't know how true it is, I've not delved into it too much, but having heard about the choice, you know, Margot Robbie really fought to be able to produce the movie and really fought to get Greta Gerwig installed. So actually it wasn't the typical kind of studio toy movie. It had quite different beginnings. And I think that has been to its benefit. It was, I read a really— and I'm going to paraphrase dreadfully, but I read an interesting comment last night where it was on social media saying, actually, let's hope that the Barbie movie prompts more movies about identity, what it is to be, you know, Barbie or a woman or a female with all of these different challenges and competing objectives and priorities. Let's hope that the studios acknowledge that that might have been the success factor in Barbie and not the fact that it's a toy. And let's hope it doesn't spawn more movies that are just based on toys and actually it just spawns more movies about, you know, we're talking about identity and at its core, that's what Barbie is about. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see which way those, that goes. I think it could be just, let's pump out lots of movies based on toy brands. For me, that would be an error.

Yeah, looking at it from a very superficial take, that's probably the message people will take out. They usually do. But you're right, it's working at a much deeper level. We touched on it a little bit. What do you think are the biggest differences between Zoomers or Generation Z or Z and these emergent Generation Alpha or Gen A, because we've heard a lot about Gen Z, and actually in some ways they've become stereotyped by a lot of editorial, I think. But what do you think the differences or similarities are with the next generation following them?

The main differences for me, and I'm going to touch on the kind of the educational point of it, it's something that you and I have spoken about in the past. I'm feeling for the first time that Gen A have, have, have really acknowledged how traditional schooling is not delivering for them. You know, going into a classroom, learning, you know, certain subjects at a certain time of day, being expected to progress at the same level as 30 other classmates, it's not fit, it's no longer fit for purpose. And, and actually it's something that Ken Robinson's spoke about for a long time, but never has it been more obvious to me that actually it's not fit for purpose. Education does not equip kids in the most part for life after school. And, and they're, they're, they're teaching themselves. And this is where the importance of active learning, gamification of learning, having access to The endless information on YouTube, but actually also endless dis- and misinformation on YouTube. You know, where can creators, educators, IP owners, where can they lean into that empowering kids, educating kids? And I even hesitate to say educating because when I say educating, it's informing, it's empowering, it's equipping. It's not teaching them algebra. You know, but like I said, they're going to YouTube. It's their default search engine. They wanna know something, they go to YouTube and they can learn about crypto schemes on YouTube, but there's not a huge amount of content that is going to support their journey in figuring out who they are, you know, about gender identity, about climate change, about grief. So what's different, I think, for Gen A is that they're acknowledging that they're gonna get their skills and their knowledge and themselves, they're gonna go out and find it. Again, whether it's teaching themselves coding on low-code platforms like Roblox and creating on there. You know, I'm working with a couple of Roblox studios at the moment creating some experiences for the platform and they are early 20s. They're basically, you know, kids. Well, kids to me. That have grown up on the platform, that are native to the platform, that have turned it into a business. And I find that fascinating because they have honed that skill on those platforms and it's become a business. They didn't learn those skills in school. So this, this is the marked difference, I think, for me with, with Gen A is there will be school-based education. And then there's a whole heap of stuff around it that they are going out and they are figuring out and they're working out themselves that will shape them as the worker and the employee of the future. And what we need employers to do is acknowledge that there's a whole heap of skills that will not be captured on a CV. And this is one thing, again, we've spoken about in the past, is this notion whatever you think of NFTs, if you think of tokens and digital tokens that are soul-bound to you as an individual, that starts becoming a much more compelling way to record a person's skills and, and knowledge, information and skills that they've acquired in the digital realm, held in the soul-bound token. That is a much more articulate and accurate representation of you and the digital version of you alongside the real you that then gives a much more accurate picture of what value you will be able to bring to the workforce of the future. And I think that's, that's really interesting to me. And I think we're a long way off yet. But again, looking at those skills and those talents for the future, I know McKinsey has done quite a lot of work on it, you know, What are they for kids? And most of them will not be gained in a classroom. They'll be gained across this digital realm, whether you want to call it a metaverse, or they will just be going and finding and developing those skills in that realm.

This is this area of crossover, isn't it, between gaming and education and the whole sort of earning these credentials in, in the game and then transferring that over to earning for learning in sort of Web3 education platforms like Hundo or others. To me, looking at it and having done a couple of projects now on the future of education, it seems to be happening pretty fast actually, like this transition. I don't know how aware parents are or how involved they are, but to me it seems to be, it seems to be happening quite quickly. How do you feel about this sort of idea that actually, learning is incentivized by these sort of tokens, because some of them have monetary value and some of them have other values attached, of course, but obviously, they'll end up going in your digital wallet. And as you say, they become part of you and your identity and your skills that in part depict your identity. So, how do you feel about that crossover?

I think we probably, and again, I'm not an educator, but this notion of extrinsic motivation to learn. I know it's quite controversial. I think it's a mixture of the two because, you know, most kids like learning, but you've just got to find the way in which each particular kid does like learning. So yes, you know, some are quite happy learning from rote, from a book. Others want to be in a game. You know, again, I've, seen from my own children, just the amount of historical knowledge they picked up from playing Assassin's Creed, you know, in ancient Greece or Egypt. And they're sponges, you know, they soak it up. But where's that captured? No, you know, other than the fact that they both really like history and, you know, did quite well in history exams at school, that's not captured anywhere. So what I think it— for me, I think it's almost a mute argument, you know. If it's something that helps kids learn, this extrinsic motivation, what does it matter? As long as it's helping them develop as a human that will have a positive contribution to society and to the workforce, I don't think it really matters. And I think For the most part, it would always be a mixture of intrinsic and extrinsic motivations for learning. But what the shift in technology of late has facilitated is allowing kids to learn. If you have a much more active learner who does respond to being in games, doing things, building, taking stuff apart, rebuilding it, actually it's much more easy to facilitate in that way. You've got AR. That can overlay digital information on the real world. That's a really interesting way to impart information to kids. You've got VR, total immersion in things that you can do, things that you would never be able to do in real life. Transport yourself back to ancient Rome and go and sit in the forum and listen to, you know, kind of Romans debating, or take part in an open-heart surgery in a virtual reality environment. You know, most kids would never get that opportunity.

Opportunity.

So I think this, this, this notion of, you know, is it right or wrong to incentivize learning? I think really we should be saying it doesn't really matter as long as we can find the right way to get kids wanting to learn. Because I do not believe that actually there are kids that don't want to learn. I think we just haven't found the right way to get them hooked on the learning yet.

That's interesting. So I know unfortunately our time is coming to an end. I could talk to you for ages about all of this, but I just want to ask you, and I know it's a difficult question, but where do you think we'll be then by sort of 2030 as we head into the next decade? Will education and entertainment have crossed over much more? Will we be seeing, you know, Gen Z will be coming much more into the workforce and presumably having an influence there. How do you see some of these influences panning out in the next decade?

I think, you know, coming from a point, you know, I've worked in kids' media and entertainment for a long time, so I think, yes, there will be a merging of entertainment and education across these platforms. I think if we can apply some entertainment principles to education, again, it will make it much more interesting for kids and they'll be much more willing. They're more than happy to be educated, but it's just got to happen in that way. They're quite happy with that transaction. But the, you know, big E education happens at school. If you can entertain them but leave them with more knowledge after interacting with your characters or your world or your video or your game, if you can leave them with a little bit more knowledge than they had before they interacted with it, they're more than happy with that as long as they've had fun doing it. So I think we'll see a melding of those entertainment principles with education. I think in terms of in 2030, I think we'll be at a, a stage where more of Gen A are the CEO. I've heard this phrase, I think it was Evan Shapiro who talked about it, um, the CEO of me. So there'll be many more that are self-employed or freelance. They will be making businesses out of the skills that they have learned both in school, but again, across this digital realm, and they will turn it into something that, that makes money for them. And that, so that's where I see the future of education and work. And I don't think education, you know, will stop at 18. I think it will just continue. And I think formal schooling will still have a place, but much like the point we made about linear TV, it will just have a smaller space in their life. And actually, it will be endless learning, reskilling, as technology moves at this— the rate of change that it is doing. And they'll be much more set up to do that, to take advantage of new skills, to learn, to constantly upskill and evolve, than perhaps older generations will be. So, you know, it's a fascinating, fascinating period that we're in. It's going to be interesting to see if we, you know, if we're replaying this conversation in 10 years, where, where today's Gen A will be as they're on the verge of entering the workforce. I think it will be very different.

I sometimes think of that as, um, learning by lifestyle, you know, rather than by school, schooling. It's, it's you're learning by lifestyle, and whatever your lifestyle is kind of dictates or influences what it is you learn, because you're trying to learn things that are going to be useful, you know, within the parameters of your lifestyle. But yeah, that's fascinating. Jo, thank you so much. It's always an education in itself, actually, to talk to you about this sort of stuff. If people want to find out, because I know you post a lot on social media and you keep people up to date with all of this and the trends, where can they find you?

I spend most of my time on LinkedIn. I'm a lurker on X, but certainly on LinkedIn, and always happy to speak to people about this. You know, again, we're all learning. Every day things are changing. And it's fascinating, and I will never not be fascinated by this world of kids' media, this convergence of entertainment and education, the fragmentation of kids' attention. You know, it's so fascinating and changes from one month to the next. So yes, if anybody's ever keen to chat about that, then I'm always up for it.

Brilliant. Jo Rivfern, thank you very much for joining me here today on The Future Review. Thanks again.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to The Future of You hosted by me, Tracey Follows. Check out the show notes for more info about the topics covered in this episode. Do like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you know someone you think will enjoy this episode, please do share it with them. Visit thefutureofyou.co.uk for more on the future of identity, Identity in a Digital World, and Futuremade.consulting for the future of everything else. The Future Review podcast is produced by Big Tent Media.