Cycling Safely, Legal Issues & the Insurance You NEED Ep 30

Welcome to the Find Your Edge podcast. I'm your host, Chris Newport, founder, head coach, sports nutritionist, and exercise physiologist at The Endurance Edge. Our mission is to empower people to reach and sustain peak performance and health. So get ready to dive into all things training, nutrition, recovery, and more. We hope to give you detailed information and inspiring stories to help you be your best. Let's do it. All right. Welcome back to the Find Your Edge podcast. I am excited to have our guest Thomas Henson on the show today to talk all about cycling safety, insurance, and other considerations for cycling in particular on the road. But, um, welcome to the show, Thomas.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

Yes. So let's jump right in. Um, Ted, give us a little bit of your background, your company, and your history as a cyclist too.

Yeah. So I come at some of these issues from a lot of different angles. So first of all, I'm an attorney. Um, our firm, broadly speaking, does personal injury, uh, car crashes, workers' comp, Social Security disability, things like that. Um, my focus is more what we refer to as catastrophic injuries, spinal cord injury, brain injury, tractor-trailer crashes, a lot of cycling injuries. So that's kind of my, my niche as far as the firm goes. But I'm also— I've been a cyclist, recreational cyclist, for literally decades. Do a lot of— have done a lot of charity rides over the years, do a lot of mountain biking and road riding. So I've kind of got that angle. And then I'm also very involved in the brain injury community. I'm on the board of directors for the Brain Injury Association of North Carolina. As well as the governor's council, uh, the Brain Injury Advisory Council for the governor and the legislature. And our job and our role is to advise governmental agencies on all things TBI-related, a lot of veterans issues, but also just acquired traumatic brain injury in general. So all of that kind of coalesces, so to speak, into kind of having a perspective on how cycling and legal issues and insurance issues kind of come together as a way to hopefully be as protected as possible when we're all out on the road. We all know that we're vulnerable out there. We don't like to think about it, but just like being in a car, you know, things can happen. So I think it's important for people to understand how these things come together.

Awesome. Very cool. Yeah, I know you've been very generous with supporting a lot of the local cycling clubs and rides. And so, um, in fact, a recent triathlon, we got a nice little towel with y'all's, uh, logo on it. So, uh, we certainly appreciate that, but let's talk about— I, cause I know this is really your big platform. Let's talk about insurance first and foremost, cause, um, This was something when you spoke to our cycling club a long time ago, and then just recently also. This is really kind of your passion, and tell us about that and how it's unique, not only just in general, but also in North Carolina.

Yes, so it is, it is kind of a, kind of a passion in the sense that it's an issue that not many people know about.

You have a new message.

Um, sorry about that. And it's one that especially as cyclists, but even outside the cycling context, it makes sense to kind of know about these things. So generally speaking, everybody has auto insurance, or at least they're supposed to. So if you're just out in your car driving around, at least theoretically, everybody out out there who's driving around is supposed to have insurance on their vehicle such that if they run a stop sign and hit you and break your leg, for instance, their insurance is supposed to come into play to cover your, kind of broadly speaking, medical expenses, lost wages, and then the squishy topic of pain and suffering. So, but the issue comes into play when What if there's not enough insurance to cover the injuries that you or someone sustains? So the minimum required amount of insurance in North Carolina is only $30,000. So, um, you can imagine, I mean, I, you know, if you've got anybody who's had cervical spine surgery or, you know, broken leg surgery, you know, generally any kind of surgery, your medical expenses with hospitalizations and physical therapy and all the follow-up I mean, it could easily exceed $30,000 just right off the bat. So the general assumption, I think, of people kind of out in the world is that, well, I'll be fine because the other person has insurance. But again, the, the crossroads comes when the other person doesn't have enough insurance to cover what your damages are. And that can be a problem, again, with not necessarily a catastrophic injury. It could be just You know, again, a fractured femur or any kind of spinal surgery, you know, those medical expenses build up. And then we haven't even talked about what if you miss time from work and have lost wages. And then again, kind of on top of that is the, is the pain and suffering component. So the way around that, or the way to better protect yourself, is to purchase something from your own insurance agent called uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage. Um, so the uninsured part comes into play because even though theoretically by law everybody is supposed to have at least $30,000 worth of insurance, not everybody does. So there are some vehicles out there that have no insurance. So if you get hit by somebody that has no insurance, then you have to pop back to your own insurance coverage to try and cover some of those damages. So, um, that is— so we can kind of take a break there, um, in, in terms of trying to think about this. So the uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage is an extra coverage that you purchase that comes into play if the other person doesn't have enough insurance to cover your injuries. So, um, I've got a graph, or if you've got that diagram that we had talked about, if you want to pull it up.

Yeah, for anybody who's watching this, you'll be able to see this. But, um, so I'll share screen here, but if you're just listening via the podcast, um, you'll see the UM/UIM, which is what you're referring to, right?

Yeah, exactly. So scroll down just a tad. And so you see down at the bottom, I've kind of got two charts here, one of which represents medical bills and kind of injury severity. And you can see that, I mean, obviously injuries can be minor or they can be very severe. Um, so if you've, you know, you get hit and you kind of have a sprained neck or whatever, and then you have some physical therapy, your medical bills may only be a few thousand dollars. Once you start getting into various forms of surgery, those medical expenses can top $30,000 and start creeping up towards $100,000. If somebody is catastrophically injured, and meaning some kind of horrible brain injury or paralysis or all those horrible things we don't want to think about, then all of a sudden those types of medical expenses can literally get up into the $500,000 or more range. You know, we've— I think we've all heard of various tragedies specifically in the cycling community, but it certainly, certainly applies to car wrecks in general where somebody's on their bike and they get hit and they have some sort of really debilitating brain injury or spinal cord injury where they literally have to go into like a skilled nursing facility or something like that. Those types of scenarios, if you're looking at a lifetime of expenses, we can all imagine what those start to add up to. So for purposes of this graph, I've just kind of graphically depicted on the left kind of the various levels of medical expenses to think about. And again, that doesn't include lost wages or the proverbial pain and suffering. So if you look to the right, I've just kind of visually depicted here, if you've got a defendant with only $30,000 worth of coverage on their vehicle, then as, as your expenses or as the injured person's expenses start to go up, that leaves the underinsured aspect. So if you, um, on the column all the way to the right, the green is what I've kind of visually depicted as if you have underinsured motorist coverage, then that kicks in on top of whatever the defendant has. So maybe scroll back up to the very top, and then you could just see the label up here, UM, which is uninsured, and UIM, which is underinsured motorist coverage. So, Chris, maybe scroll down a little bit and go to the actual deck pages. Yeah, so I have shared with you guys my— now this is a couple of years old, but I've still got the same limits. This is from 2017, but this is my own personal insurance policy, and you can see the Coverage A is bodily injury coverage, which is— that's the amount of insurance I have if I do something negligent and I run a stop sign and I hurt somebody badly. So if, if I do that, then the other person would file a claim against my insurance company for whatever their damages are, up to $1 million. So that's, that's my own personal coverage if I hit or or hurt somebody else. But the area I've highlighted is, and it's harder to see 'cause the highlight kind of covers it up, but that is a combined uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage of $1 million. So that corresponds to the green block on the diagram we just saw, such that if I get hit either in my car or on my bike, or wherever, and the other person has minimum limits or even $50,000 in coverage, my UIM coverage comes in and covers my expenses and losses up to $1 million. So scroll down a little bit more or to the next page.

And does this— so let's say you're running and you're in the crosswalk or something and somebody hits you. I'm assuming that this also I know we're focusing more on cycling, but I'm assuming that also kicks in, correct?

It does. And it actually applies to anybody that lives in your household. So underinsured coverage does what we call follow the person. So literally it— I have under my example, I have $1 million of underinsured coverage that just follows me around. So anything dealing with a vehicle, whether I'm running, walking, walking with my, my son and his stroller, you know, uh, cycling, in my car, if I'm in your car, my underinsured motorist coverage follows me. So it applies in every single scenario, but that also becomes important for your spouse. You know, if your spouse is, you know, traveling in Idaho and is in somebody else's car in Idaho and gets in a bad wreck, that underinsured motorist follows your spouse. Same with your children if they're on a school bus or on some kind of school trip. Um, the underinsured and uninsured motorist follows the family members. Anybody who's living in the household follows them around. So yes, it is very broadly applied, which is why it's so beneficial.

So even if perhaps you may not cycle or run or anything like that, if you're— if a family member does, it sounds like this is important.

It is. It is. And even, you know, like to your point, even if we're talking to somebody not in the endurance community, I mean, if you're just— if you're just a person who doesn't cycle or run or anything, you know, I have cases sadly come through my office all the time where somebody's quote unquote, just in a car crash, and they have, you know, really bad injuries from a car crash, um, and the same theories obviously apply. So, but yeah, for the purposes of our conversation, it applies no matter what you're doing. I mean, not swimming because you theoretically wouldn't be hit by a car when you're in the lake, but it would apply if you're riding your bike to the lake to go swimming and somebody hits you on your bike. So You know, yeah, it's very important for that reason as well.

Okay, great. All right, so what did you want to—

so scroll down one more page. I just wanted to see— wanted you to see.

Uh, yes, I—

yeah, I actually, on my umbrella policy, I actually have uninsured/underinsured coverage up to $10 million. Now that sounds like a ton of money, and that's probably a little overly paranoid. Um, because even— I mean, the most catastrophic case you can imagine, $10 million is probably enough to cover those expenses. You know, I'm at a point now where my son's getting ready to graduate from high school. I don't have— you know, my dependents aren't depending on me as much. I'm probably actually going to reduce that down maybe to $7.5 million, um, or maybe $5 million or so. But at the very least, I tell people get at least $1 million worth of underinsured coverage and more if you can afford it. It's not, it's not an expensive coverage. You see the premium there is $2,400, but that's not for the underinsured portion. This falls under my umbrella coverage that applies in a liability context. Again, if I do something or somebody falls off my deck or, you know, whatever happens. That's what an umbrella coverage is for. So this UIM portion kind of attaches onto that, but the cost just for the UIM portion on the first page we looked at, you know, that's a couple hundred dollars a year probably for a million dollars worth of coverage. So something that's generally pretty affordable in the grand scheme of things.

Hey, I was messing around on my— so I have USAA. I was messing around on an app before we got on this call just to see like Can I— so first of all, I could do this myself. So I imagine other people can probably— like, in other words, I can change my coverage literally like by the push of a button. And $1 million of coverage for us is like $20 a month. Yeah, I mean, it's really like, I feel like that's such a small amount compared to the potential. And I'm sure you can speak to that as to the potential catastrophes.

So yeah, I mean, you know, it's— I mean, the weird thing about it, so there's two aspects of that. Number one, for whatever reason, insurance agents don't seem to talk a lot with their clients about the availability of underinsured coverage, and I'm not sure why that is. It's certainly not intentional. I just— I'm not sure most agents really see this through the lens that I do, which makes sense. But I have— it's amazing how many people come through our office and, and they either have no underinsured coverage, or sometimes they may have like $50,000 of UIM or $100,000 of UIM, which helps, but in a catastrophic scenario, it doesn't help as much as it could if you had, you know, $250,000 worth of UIM or $1 million worth of UIM. And like you say, for $20 a month That's probably the cheapest insurance you could buy kind of in any scenario. So I think that's a really important point to either go on the website yourself and try to figure out how to do it. The other thing I've done before, and the reason I share my own insurance policy is feel free to print this out and take it to your insurance agent and say, look, I want what this guy has. You know, that's an option. I've also had a couple of scenarios where I actually got on the phone with somebody with their insurance agent to make sure nothing got lost in the translation, um, and, and said, look, this is what they want, you know, y'all can work out the cost, but I can kind of help bridge that communication gap if you need to. So not a big deal. I mean, like you say, I mean, most people are smart enough to, to, uh, be able to kind of have that conversation themselves, but It's certainly an option if anybody needs it.

Okay, that's super helpful. All right, so we've, we've gotten the, the insurance part. Now when— let's go to like, if we're out on the road and something does happen, and one of the things that you had shared with us, let's see, which would you like us to share? Probably like the what the What happens— I don't know if you can see my screen or not.

Um, yeah, that, that's the one right there. So this is actually a mock-up. It's kind of a proof of a little card that I provide for various charity rides I sponsor, or triathlons, or whatever. And it actually can fit in the— in your, uh, bike saddle. So, um, if you scroll down, it's got a little list of helpful things.

So basically what we're looking at is if you are hit while riding your bike, what are the steps to take? And we'll have this posted on our website too. So yeah, Thomas, walk us through this.

Yeah. So the first thing is obviously seek medical help. That's kind of a given. I will tell you, not only is it, is it important to seek medical help immediately, but it's also important to get in to see a doctor even after kind of the acute incident has happened. Cyclists are renowned because we're athletes, right? And especially the endurance athletes who are doing triathlons and stuff like that, you're used to— you've trained yourself to deal with pain and get through pain and kind of do your own self-recovery. That can create a problem in the legal side, though, because If you have somebody who is in a crash and they don't go to a doctor for a month and then go to a doctor, uh, I'm gonna get the argument from the insurance company, well, they must not have been hurt that bad because they didn't go see a doctor. So, you know, I never tell people to go to a doctor just for purposes of the lawsuit, um, because that, that's not reasonable either. And you shouldn't go to a doctor unless you need to. But I always stress to especially endurance athletes, look, go get yourself checked out. First of all, because legal issues aside, it's just the smart thing to do. Um, and you need somebody who really understands the, the human body and all that kind of stuff. I mean, that's why we have doctors, right? So we need to take advantage of that knowledge and make sure that we can get on the recovery track as fast as possible. Secondarily, kind of as a byproduct benefit, is if it turns into a legal issue, then I as the lawyer have your injuries documented in a way that make it persuasive to the insurance companies I'm dealing with, trying to get kind of fair and reasonable compensation for what the injuries are. So kind of a twofold thing there.

No, that's an interesting perspective of both the legal side and also encouraging because Like you said, we athletes are, I'm good, I'm fine. And adrenaline is an amazing thing. It will make things not hurt. And then the next day you're going, man, especially, and talk to like any head injuries, because especially in your position working with, um, some of the brain injury boards and that kind of thing. Like, I feel like so many people are like, oh, I mean, I bumped my head and my helmet's cracked, but it's Yeah, that, that is a huge issue.

Um, I think a lot of people still kind of suffer from the misconception that getting your bell rung is okay and to just shake it off. Um, we have learned, uh, in the, in the medical field, um, or we've seen in the medical field how untrue that is, and a concussion literally is a brain injury. It's not a severe brain injury in the sense that you have a bleed on the brain, although sometimes people think they just have a concussion and there actually is some bleeding going on. So there's all kinds of reasons to get checked out, but even assuming it's just a concussion, quote unquote, that can be a serious thing that needs monitoring, and there are specific strategies that concussion specialists implement to make sure you recover as quickly as possible. I would also— so if you have a concussion or if somebody in your group has a concussion, you know, we all, like Chris said, we all know the type. You know, I'm fine. I'm going to just— I'll be fine. But strongly encourage them to go get checked out. In the scenario of a concussion, I also urge people to seek out a concussion specialist. Because sadly, even though we've learned a lot about concussion over the last 20 years, and certainly with veterans and NFL and all those kinds of things, I think people in the medical community are more in tune with it now than they've ever been. But I still see clients who come to visit or come to see me, and they say, well, I went to see my primary care doctor, and, and he or she said, ah, it's just a bump on the head, you'll be fine in a few weeks. That's not the appropriate strategy. So there are plenty of sports concussion clinics out there. Well, I don't say plenty. There are a few. A lot of the orthopedic clinics have specialized concussion clinics. So make sure you're seeing somebody with that background to make sure they give you the specific strategies you need to recover as quickly as you can.

Okay, great. So we've sought medical attention. And then what's the next step?

Yeah, next step is, is call 911. A lot of times people are hesitant to call the police. Um, and you know, I get that. I mean, if, you know, I mean, everything is situation-specific, right? Um, but if somebody has either crashed into you or maybe intentionally caused you to crash, um, or, you know, came, you know, ridden close by you or buzzed by you or whatever, it's important to call the police. Again, on the legal side, it helps me when that's documented. If the police aren't called, then it's really this big he said, she said kind of thing, which is very difficult to prove. When you do, when the police do show up, it's obviously fine and you want to talk to them and tell them what happened. But generally speaking, it's best not to make a bunch of statements to either the other driver or anybody standing around. About what happened, because you never— again, that feeds this he said, she said thing. And, you know, in my world, in the legal arena, even though you've told the police one thing, the other driver might say, well, you know, yeah, she told that to the police, but she told me the entire, you know, exactly the opposite before the police got there. So I generally advise people, don't really make any statements to anybody until the police get there. Um, if there's witnesses around, you know, I tend to— when I ride, I tend to make sure I'm in a group. I try not to ride by myself. I know that a lot of especially Ironman kind of athletes, because the amount of training you do, you have to be by yourself. But if you're in a group, that's good because it gives you witnesses. Um, and you know, if there's other drivers who are witnesses that happen to stop or whatever, make sure you get their contact information. So that we can contact them later if there's any, uh, any follow-up that needs to be done. Um, pictures are always critical, uh, of the vehicle, of the scene, of the injuries, of the bike. Um, you know, I, I, I— if I have you as a client and 2 years after the crash I put you up on the stand to testify what a horrible gash you had on your arm, it's a whole lot more persuasive if we have a picture than you just describing it. So pictures are key. And then there's a couple of other things on the right-hand side of this little handout that talks about getting driver's license and insurance. But if the police is called, then that's part of what they do as well.

Okay. Let's see, we got witnesses, we got medical attention, calling 911, being brief in our statements, right? Um, and try not to discuss. Yeah. So tell, and then when do people call you? Talk to, tell us about that.

My advice to anybody calling a lawyer for any purpose, you know, whether you've been arrested for murder, whether you're closing on your house, whether you, um, are filing bankruptcy, whether, you know, just any reason you're calling a lawyer, it's always best to call the lawyer sooner rather than later. That's not just in the personal injury context, but it certainly applies in the personal injury context. So when you call me or, you know, any other lawyer for that matter, um, it helps because witnesses disappear, their memories fade, the ability to take pictures disappears. The insurance company for the other driver, you can bet, is jumping into action on day one Um, and you don't— so if I get somebody who calls me, you know, 2 months after, after it happens, then I'm kind of behind the 8-ball and playing catch-up in terms of, again, doing my investigation, doing my due diligence, um, to make sure witnesses' kind of memories are preserved, getting pictures. You know, sometimes I have to— pardon me— sometimes I have to hire experts to maybe go out into the scene. I've had cycling cases in the past where for whatever reason there may be issues as to where the bike and the vehicle were located. So I need to hire an accident reconstruction engineer to go out to the scene and try and recreate all that. Again, to kind of fight this he said, she said thing. So if I'm hiring an engineer to go out there, it's a lot better if he or she goes out there the day after the crash rather than 6 months later. Again, when skid marks have been washed away by the rain or gouge marks on the pavement have been paved over, you know, those kinds of things. So again, the general advice is if you need a lawyer for anything, call them as soon as possible. And that definitely applies in the personal injury context as well.

Okay, great, great advice there. Um, so we've talked a little bit about like bodily injury and that kind of thing. Cyclists generally spend a pretty good investment on their equipment. So what are some of your— are there any things to do? Like, should we take pictures of our equipment on, I don't know, on a yearly basis or something? That way we have it, have something to compare to when it's broken, or what would be some of your advice there?

So a couple of things. So property that falls into the area of property damage. So just like if you're in a— if you're in your car and somebody hits your car, then the other carrier has to either fix your car or pay you the value of the vehicle if it's quote-unquote totaled. So the same theory applies on a bike. So, but the burden falls on you and us to prove what— either what the bike was worth if it's completely ruined, or how much it's going to cost to get it fixed, realizing, to Chris's point, we're not dealing with a Huffy from Sears, you know. We're dealing with a, you know, a bike worth several thousand dollars, if not more. And insurance— most insurance adjusters don't live in that world. They don't understand the technical aspects of cycling and why a particular brake system or a particular wheel might— why does that cost $800. So there's a couple of different things that, that I propose to try and protect yourself there. One is, um, keep every single invoice, document, bill, anything you've gotten from your bike shop starting with the cost of your bike. Just open up a file, whether it's digital or a real file, and put the sales invoice from purchasing your bike there. Anytime you make any upgrades, anytime you get it repaired, anytime you add a bike computer or anything like that, put those same invoices in that folder. Because if you're in a position where you're calling me, or even if you're just handling something on your own, you want to provide as much documentation to the insurance company as possible because they're not just going to take your word for it. I've had scenarios where not only do I have my client provide whatever documentation there is, but I've actually gotten, you know, affidavits from the bike shop mechanic or the bike shop owner that says, yes, you know, Christina Fiumara Newport bought her bike from me. Here's the work that I've done on it. Here's the cost. Here's what it would cost to replace these items, assuming we can fix the bike. So, you know, on first glance it seems easy. You just tell the insurance company, hey, my bike was worth X. But if you really want to get full dollar for what the bike was worth, and same thing applies to helmet or gloves or your jersey, all of that falls under the category of property damage. So, you know, you may or may not want to keep every invoice for every cycling jersey you've ever bought, and those are a little easier to document. Than, than, you know, a specialized tri bike, for instance. But, you know, if you're anal retentive and want to keep all that stuff, literally for every helmet or every cycling shoes or anything you've ever bought, if you put it in that same file, you know, you got it if you need it. So that's how the property damage aspect works.

Okay, great. So you had mentioned, you know, keeping receipts and that kind of thing, and it kind of made me think of Uh, and you mentioned bike computer. Um, and when you spoke to our group recently, GoPro came up and how video footage benefits you in your particular case. So talk to me a little bit about, um, safety and maybe any, any steps that are ideal for cyclists to take or gear or anything like that that's going to benefit us as cyclists?

Yeah, so from a safety aspect, you know, the first thing that's always on the list, and you almost hesitate to say it because it's so obvious, but the first thing is wear your helmet. Um, you don't see many people ride without helmets anymore, thankfully. Occasionally you'll see somebody, generally it's a guy, you know, who maybe thinks he's from Sweden or whatever, or he's going to compete in the Tour de Cure back in the '80s. And they're riding without a helmet. Which, you know, I get it. I understand, kind of like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. I'm sure it feels better, but it is not a smart thing to do. From a safety standpoint, and we could have a whole different conversation about some of the laws in North Carolina, but briefly kind of describing, North Carolina has what's called the law of contributory negligence. Which means if a jury finds or an insurance company can argue that somehow you as the cyclist contributed to the crash by your own conduct, then they can deny your claim and not pay you anything. And lawyers like me have been trying for years and are still trying to get that overturned or changed at the legislature. To something called comparative negligence. Um, and again, this is kind of a whole separate discussion to get into the nuances of all this, but the takeaway for purposes of this conversation is you don't want to do anything that is going to lend support to an insurance company's, uh, or if you end up in trial, a defense lawyer's claim that you somehow contributed to the crash. So what you have to do is everything reasonable to protect yourself and ride your bike safely, which includes— again, most of this is obvious— but it includes wearing reflective clothing, having your bike lit up like a Christmas tree with flashing lights and all kinds of stuff, bike radar if you can afford it or want it. All of those types of technology are important. The GoPro is important because, um, you know, it'll prove what happened. And a lot of times it can not only prove that the person hit you from behind, as an example, or intentionally tried to swerve you off the road, or threw a beer bottle at you, or all the, all the kinds of crazy stuff we all have happen on the road. Um, it can document that, but it can also document license plates, identify a vehicle that it's a hit and run, those kinds of things. So a GoPro, it's a little bit heavier to wear on the head. I understand that. You can also mount it on the handlebars. But if you're in a big group, chances are, I think a lot of people are riding with GoPros now, so that certainly helps. So the more GoPros we have, the better. So that's a good thing. We now have— there were some changes to the cycling laws and they fell under kind of the motor vehicle provisions, but basically passing cars are required to give you as a cyclist 4 feet. It has also kind of codified, or the new law has codified, that the hand signals we all know or should know are legal, just like a turn signal on a car. Another vehicle is required by law to understand, respect, and follow any hand signals that we give as cyclists. There's a couple of other— the one at the very bottom of what Chris is showing now is the new law requires a bike to have a red rear light or the operator to wear a reflective vest when the bike is operated at night. Um, you know, I don't know that— the thing I always say is that just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. Um, theoretically, cyclists have the right to be on the road just like cars, um, which means theoretically I have the right to ride down Capitol Boulevard at 5 PM on a weekday. Um, am I gonna do that? Good God, no. Even though legally I'm allowed to. But again, just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. So riding at most— I don't know the statistics on it, but a lot of cycling crashes happen at dawn and at dusk. So, you know, again, I know we all want to get out early in the morning and that kind of stuff, but anything you're doing that makes a driver makes it difficult to see you is gonna, in my world, in addition to it just being unsafe and you don't want to be hurt, in my world, that is going to lead into an argument that you as the cyclist were somehow contributorily negligent by riding at dusk without lights. And frankly, that's going to be a good argument. So You know, again, you want to be safe, and really common sense is a large part of this. Don't roll stop signs. It's unsafe and it leads to an argument of contributory negligence. You know, don't weave back and forth on the road and, you know, fool around on the bike. Don't do crazy things in pace lines when a vehicle's coming up. You know, it's just literally a matter of riding smart and just being safe. And the good news is that if you do that, then that translates into the legal arena as a case that you stand on pretty firm ground with because nobody can claim that you did anything wrong.

So with this contributory negligence, I have seen quite a few cyclists who get a little, shall we say, mouthy with vehicles or drivers of vehicles, whether somebody passes them too close and then they're throwing the middle finger or screaming and yelling, and then next thing you know, the car turns around and now we have some stuff. Like, does— where, where are we at in that? Does, does that fall under that rule?

You know, it can. It's hard to generalize. I mean, everything is so situation-specific, right? Um, you know, if I've got my lawyer hat on and I'm advising people, the advice would be don't ever do that, as much as, you know, And there have been times when I've been on my bike and I've done stuff like that. So I realize that it's easy to say and harder to do, but you just don't want to do— I mean, again, the first thing is safety, right? You don't want to egg on somebody who, you know, I mean, some guy driving his bass boat behind his car on the way out to Falls Lake— with all due respect to bass fishermen, you know, I mean, not everybody's like that, but we know the stereotype, right? Um, you know, somebody like that turns their truck around and all of a sudden they're you know, got their concealed carry weapon underneath their dashboard. I mean, things get— especially in today's world, things get froggy really quickly, as we all know. So again, just put the legal stuff aside, just from a safety standpoint, I think de-escalation is a really important concept. Um, it's easier, you know, you can rest assured if you have a GoPro That's a double-edged sword, right? Because it's also going to capture what you do or what we do. So I think de-escalation is a very important philosophy to keep in mind to keep everybody safe, to avoid, you know, people coming back and getting really road rage or all this crazy stuff. And then again, as a byproduct in the legal arena, that helps the legal case if there is one. Because it makes it a lot harder for me to do my job if I've got a client who was, you know, going after the other person just as hard as the other person was coming after my client. So, you know, again, it's kind of common sense, but if we can do our best to keep that to a minimum or non-existent, I think we're all better off.

Awesome. Great advice. All right, Thomas. So if we— if you had 2 or 3 things to just put a bow on it, um, reminders for people, what would those be?

A, always wear a helmet. Uh, B, always get treatment for a concussion or a suspected concussion. And C, as soon as you stop watching this podcast, call your insurance agent and tell them you want as much underinsured motorist coverage as you can afford.

Great advice. Love it. Thomas, how can people get a hold of you?

Uh, well, our website is, uh, hensonfirst.com. I think it's all our— we, we changed recently, used to be lawmed.com. I think that still forwards over, and that's what's on our promotional materials. Um, phone number is obviously there, 1-800-396-3300. Um, my email is always— you can always call my email— I mean, email me at thomashenson@lawmed.com. Um, my cell number— call my cell if you want me— 919-819-7498. I'm always happy to talk to cyclists or runners or anybody for that matter if they've got, got an issue. So don't hesitate to reach out, um, and I'd be happy to, to talk you through anything for sure.

Awesome. That was super generous, really fantastic information. Thank you so much for being on the show and we appreciate it. Happy writing.

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it. Y'all be safe.

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