Deliberate Cold Exposure & Long Distance Open Water Swimming Ep 44

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I'll see you there. All right, welcome back to the Find Your Edge podcast. I am your host, Christina Fiumara Newport, and I am with our awesome swim instructor, Dr. Maggie Reagan.

Hello. Hello.

Who also is our fabulous nerdy mathematician, the best. So we're here for our kind of like research roundup, if you will, talking about deliberate cold exposure, and we're gonna tie this into some of Maggie's experiences swimming in very cold water.

Okay.

So start us off, Maggie. What are some of the benefits of deliberate cold exposure?

Yeah, so I guess it, there are like 3 main categories that I would say exist for cold water exposure benefits. So those are in terms of mental health, physical health, and then also performance. And they're all kind of intertwined, right? So the process is the same. It's just that you might have these different benefits even though you're doing exactly the same thing. The timing of it could have different impact on the performance part, which I think we'll hit on. But then you can also change the time of day that you do these things to impact different mental health or resilience walls or things like that.

Cool. So when we say deliberate cold exposure, does that mean like walking outside on a winter day? Or let's get a little bit more specific. What are we referring to?

So it actually can mean walking outside on a cold winter day, except with— well, as long as you're not naked, right? Because your neighbors might not enjoy that, or they might really enjoy it. But so you would want to wear fewer clothes so you get like that shiver effect, right? So you're not going hypothermic, but you're feeling the cold, for lack of a better term. But that's actually the least effective method of deliberate cold exposure they found. So if we're going from that's the least effective to more effective on that scale, the next one would be taking a shower. So not an immersion process, but literally just standing in a cold shower. And then after that, having immersion. So immersion up to your neck where you're sitting in a bathtub of ice water or cold water from the shower, or you have one of those fancy tubs that allows you to do that. And then after that, if you add immersion with movement, it can have even more of an impact. But the deliberate is that, okay, you didn't just like forget your jacket while you were walking from your car to your office in the wintertime, or, you know, you stepped in a puddle while you were doing a trail run in the woods. But it's a deliberate action where you're like, yes, I would like to experience this, and I'm going to look into the health benefits, and I'm going to put myself in a tub of cold water.

We used to do this when I worked at the training room at Purdue. As athletic training, we had that because we were the, the interns, the low people on the totem pole. We were the ones who had to fill and empty the tub and clean it and deal with all these athletes who had immersed their sweaty bodies into those.

Yeah, I'm sure.

Tubs. I don't know if I could ever like look at one of those again. So I don't know if I'm gonna be the one doing the ice bath, but that's okay. That's okay. There are some other tools. So, okay, so we might be interested and we're not gonna get like to get too crazy into some of like the neurochemicals and some of the deeper health benefits, but we're just gonna say that we've seen that it benefits performance and decreases inflammation, improves health, et cetera. So, right, how do we, how do we dip a toe? You're welcome for the pun into this process other than forgetting our jacket or, or, you know, being a little bit more intentional about our cold exposure.

Yeah, and there's actually research that shows having the intention makes a huge difference in the impact of the deliberate cold water. So deliberate is actually necessary to have more of an impact. However, so okay, getting started, right? So when you say deliberate cold exposure, some people are like, how long? How cold? Like, how do I do this? And okay, so there's not necessarily a good prescription for this, right? I, I can't be like, okay, every single person should start out with this because it depends on so many factors. I have a decent cold water tolerance as everybody likes to point out, but not everybody has that and that's okay, right? So we just start at different places. And so what this can look like is even just saying, okay, at the end of my shower in the morning, I'm going to go from the nice warmer temperature to now having it be cold for 10, 20, 30 seconds at the end of my shower. And then I hop out and I move on with my day and keep going. Or you can intentionally have it be at the end of the day where you're, you're going to say, okay, well, I want to immerse myself in a tub full of water for a minute and go from there. And you can increase time or go from a shower to an immersion. You can increase time, you can decrease the temperature of the water. So some people might find it comical that there's people that think that 60 degrees is moderately cold, a modest cold temperature. Some of our athletes might disagree, disagree with that, that assessment, but just whatever.

And just for reference, a standard like pool that like a public pool or whatever is typically 80 to 82 degrees-ish, right? Just so for somebody's reference.

Yeah. Yeah. So competition pool is like 79 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit, somewhere in there. And then as you get closer to like the YMCA Aqua Jog swim lesson type pool, you get to the like up to the 84 kind of degrees, which is a little more like quote unquote warm water therapy.

So sorry, folks, but 80 degrees is not cold. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

And so the big thing is, is I think there's research that says that 11 minutes total for the week is enough to show progress and to have results. With this. And so when a lot of people think about cold water immersion, they'll be like, oh, well, I have to go sit out there for 30 minutes. And it's just not— you don't have to do that. So it's more of a— it is a slightly faster process, so you don't have to take tons of time with it. And then there are different factors that you can increase, decrease to kind of change the effect. And especially if we consider the fact that our body temperature changes throughout the day, like our core body temperature, not how we're feeling, but about 2 hours before you normally wake up, it's the lowest temperature that your body will be. And then as you move through your day, your core body temperature reaches its peak in the afternoon at some point and then starts to decrease again. So the idea could be that, okay, in the morning, doing this cold water immersion or therapy or whatever you want to call it is, has one impact and it actually might be a little bit more difficult in the afternoon because your core body temperature is higher.

Yeah. So good point on that. I know we were talking about, or at least before this, about mentioning like the time of day. Is there an ideal time of day? To be doing this? Like, we— should we be like dunking ourselves in cold water and then being like, I'm going to sleep? Is that ideal?

So I think the ideal component of it is hard to answer. So I think that anybody can— so the chemicals that are released with cold water immersion happen no matter what. They're, they're just guaranteed to happen. But as you get more used to the process, if you don't perform some changes in what's happening, either in length of time that you stay in the water, make the water a little bit colder, where both of those have a stopping point, right? Because you only have so much time in your day to do these things, and there's just a bottom temperature of what you'll be able to get in safely. And so I think it depends on what you're trying to get out of it. So building resilience, they talk about kind of changing the parameters of how you experience this. So time of day, but regardless, you're going to get this chemical response from your body. But if we're talking about performance, which is maybe pretty applicable to our athletes here and the people that might be listening to this podcast, if we're talking about endurance athletes, maybe more specifically, So a lot of our endurance workouts or our harder workouts, our body will build up this inflammation. And so cold water immersion can help decrease this inflammation and help with recovery. And so doing this after a workout, so for example, you come to my fun swims on Monday and Wednesday morning, and then you go take your shower to get ready for work in the locker room. And at the end of your shower, you do maybe 30 seconds of a cold water shower, which yes, it's not the same quite as immersion. We don't have bathtubs at the, at the Triangle Aquatic Center, but it's still something. It's getting you started. And even doing, you know, cold water baths at night, it's to then recover for the next day to help get rid of that inflammation can be helpful as well.

Cool. And I know we were talking about like temperature. Maybe it's, you know, 60 degrees, like, and obviously in the shower we're not gonna necessarily know how cold it goes, right? So I mean, it is what it is, right? Like if you don't have control over it, you don't have control over it. You're still gonna get some benefit.

Mm-hmm.

If we can control the temperature, is there kind of like a magic number or no?

So this is again, maybe not very satisfying answer, but it's dependent on the person, right? So, And it's dependent on where you're starting in the process. So I think the way you figure out what the number might be for you is to have a water temperature that allows you to sit there where you're slightly uncomfortable. So you're cold, you're slightly uncomfortable, but you could sit there for a while, right? So you don't want anything that's unsafe, right? So that if you sit there for a little bit longer, you're you're going to have a heart attack, maybe. That's not good. And so there's that balance of safety and discomfort, right? So we, we're not going to be super comfortable. I'd say anybody who— so let's go off of our normal pool temperatures that we swim in, right? So that's about, you know, 79, 80 degrees, somewhere in there. So 1 degree in, in water temperature feels a lot larger than it maybe seems like it should when you think about just 1 degree.

Or at least versus air temperature.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Or, and just like mentally when you think you're like, oh, it's only 1 degree, but then what, like the feeling of that is actually potentially more impactful. But yes, maybe that's with respect to this air temperature component. So I mean, maybe you start with 72 or something and see how that feels. And you're like, oh, this isn't uncomfortable at all. I could lay here all day. And then you're like, okay, well maybe I can go lower than 72. So it's all about kind of playing with it and seeing what works for you where you're a little bit uncomfortable, but you could sit in there for a bit without freaking out. Yeah. Yeah. The biggest thing is maybe looking up the effects of hypothermia and knowing what those are. Also, you know, if you have any underlying health conditions or things, making sure that you speak to somebody before you try this or before you go too cold. And by somebody, it's not just like your neighbor. You probably want to talk to your physician that you're trying to do this just so you know, you're aware of any impact that it could have on you personally. But as long as you take short amount of time and you gradually decrease your temperature, and gradual is actually gradual. So if you start with 1 minute, then maybe try a little over 1 minute. Even just 10 seconds is longer than you did before, right? And so don't expect to go from 1 minute to now 5 minutes. Like, that's not a reasonable jump. Right? You wouldn't run 3 miles and then go run a half marathon, right?

Yes. I mean, some people would, but then they'll learn, oh, that was a bad idea. So we also don't wanna scare people away from this cuz it's such a great technique. Nothing's a magic bullet, right?

Right.

But it's certainly worth trying. And especially in conjunction, like with some of the genetic testing that we do, there are certain genetic SNPs that this is more beneficial for. And similarly, for those people out there who are like, heck no, you probably have the genetic SNP that makes you less tolerant to cold. So you will want to acclimate just like Maggie is describing, even slower. So, and even if you're in the shower, like I've gotten in the habit of, I just like crank it all the way down and then I'm like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.

Like, okay, maybe I don't crank it down quite as low the next time, you know what I mean?

Like, who says that I have to put it to a certain point? You don't. Like, you're describing, like, you know, go slowly, right? If you don't do it at all, then you're not getting any benefit, right? Rather than, like, just a little tiny bit.

Just a little tiny bit. Just make it a little bit colder than it was before.

Yes.

And then you'll, you'll eventually be able to make it a little bit more cold. And only for, you know, 5 to 10 seconds. That's fine. That's a start.

It is. It's totally a start. Yes. So now that we encouraged people to do this, we're going to take a total left turn and say and talk about how Maggie has immersed herself in water for very long periods of time. Yeah.

So we were just talking about like 5 seconds.

Yes. 5 seconds. Or 6 miles. I mean, it's fine. So I do, I do think it would be cool for you to tell us about some of your long-distance cold water experiences because it's pretty cool.

Yeah, yeah. So I did my graduate degree at the University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana, which is 20 minutes from the Michigan border and about 40-ish minutes, 45 minutes from, I think, the closest-ish point to Lake Michigan. And so I had access to a lot of nice cold water. So my first experience with being introduced to this idea of swimming in more cold open water that wasn't just like the pool is cold when I get up at 6:00 AM for swim practice is with the English Channel relay that I did in 2016. So one of my friends posted on Facebook and was like, we're looking for another person to do our relay. And I was like, when else will this be a chance that I get? So I signed up and I actually did have to do a lot of ice baths because the water temperature that they want you to get used to is 60 degrees. At the maximum.

So, and is this like in a bathing suit?

Or is this bathing suit? Okay. Bathing suit only. So if you're doing a solo of the English Channel, you can lather yourself in various, like oily substances to help with chafing. But this also can help with warmth to keep your core body temperature a little bit higher. But with the relay, you're not allowed to do that because you're getting out of the water after an hour. So they take away that component. And so for, for this prep, I did a lot of ice baths and other things, and I tried to get into as much cold water as possible. But our swim was in September, and so the lakes warmed up even in Indiana pretty quickly to greater than 60 degrees, which is what I needed it to be. So I ended up actually traveling out to California to do my So for the English Channel, you have to do a test swim. And so for the relay, it's a 2-hour continuous swim in 60 degrees or colder. And so I swam loops around the bay right near these famous boating clubs, which I was not in. I just swam around. And so I did a 2-hour swim and it was observed by a teammate of mine and Yeah, the water ended up being like 63 or 64, which, you know, wasn't so bad.

Luxurious.

I know, it is warm. It's like a hot tub in there. And then some other cold water swims that I've done since then. So I've done crossings of— so the Mackinac Bridge swim. So that's about a 4 to 5 mile swim from Mackinac City to Saint Ignace. And I've done it both directions, I think, but the water can be anywhere from in the 70s, which is more what it was for my first year, to this past year, it started out maybe low 70s, then in the middle it was like mid-low 60s, and then by the end it was mid-low 50s. And so we got a nice little decrease in temperature there. I was wearing a wetsuit for these as they're required by the Coast Guard for these swims because there's, there's more people. It's not like you're one person being observed by a boat, so the rules are a little bit different for that. And then the Mackinac Island swim, which is an 8 to 9 mile swim around the— except for the ferry entrance, you're swimming the circumference around Mackinac Island. And that one I may just do without a wetsuit this year because they've added that option, but the water has been between 60 and 70. I think it was low 60s this past year, so still not, you know, this moderately cold 60-degree number, but cold.

Any future plans of doing any races?

Oh, Chris, um, so I, so I do the Mackinac Bridge Swim and the Island Swim most years. So I'll do those again this year as well as the, so the Island Swim I'm considering doing without a wetsuit. One that I haven't told very many people about, so I guess this will be a semi-announcement, is so I'm going to attempt a crossing of Lake Ontario in mid-August. Which is 31 miles.

Okay, 3-1, not 3.1. 3-1. 31 miles of swimming. Yep. Continuous.

Yep.

Okay, just making sure I'm clarifying for all, all humans with ears.

Yep. Yeah, I didn't quite look at that number long enough, I think, when I, when I put this on my list. Um, So I have freakouts about it every once in a while. So they told me to prepare for 60 to 65, but it looks like in August the average is maybe closer to the 70s. So I'm hoping that, you know, I get lucky in that respect cuz that can just help with the timeline in the water.

And is this like a mass start or one person at a time with a boat?

Like it is just me with the boat.

You in a boat. How many people are on this boat and is it a motor-powered boat? Is it a canoe? Give me the details, Maggie. Where is your food? Where is your beverage? So many questions.

Yeah. So for the mass starts, like with this bridge swim and the island swim, I usually carry my nutrition in a swim buoy, and we're required to have swim buoys on us for visibility purposes. But when— that's more because, okay, there's, you know, 10 people per observer or something larger, right? So it's much more important. For this swim in Lake Ontario, it's just going to be me. And then there's, I think, the pilot and a copilot. And then there's the person that's supposed to enact my swim contract. And there's a couple people that are in control of my feeds. And then there is a person that's going to be— so this is like a motorized, like fishing-esque boat that will be near me, but then right next to me will be— oh, I can't remember the name of it, but it's like a skip. It's like a little motorized boat that holds not very many people. And so that'll just have one person on it. And I think that person is, you know, more responsible for, okay, getting me my feed. So they'll get to the big boat and bring it back to me. And one of the things I'm practicing or starting to practice right now is where I'll get my calories and from what. And How does my body handle that and et cetera, et cetera. Can I intake any solid food or do I have to do calorie electrolyte drink only and things like that. So I'll probably be starting these ice baths pretty soon and going out to Jordan Lake to do some immersion. And I will note, I don't think we talked about this earlier, but movement while you're in the immersion makes it feel colder. Because you're like kind of bursting the like heat bubble that your body creates.

So we can't just cross our arms and snug up in a ball and just dunk ourselves into a, I mean, I guess we could. You could.

Yeah. It's a different effect though.

Right.

Yeah.

So open the floodgates, uncross your arms, move, move, move around, do a dance. Yeah. Sing a song.

Do math. Do some math problems.

Yes. And that's not a joke, actually.

That's like not a joke. Yeah. They talk about, because it's a resilience component, right? And I think this is one of the things that I'm hoping to continue to practice for this 31-mile swim, right? Is to, you know, you have to learn how to quiet the negative voices or the voices that are telling you, oh, I can't do this, or this is too hard. And we as endurance athletes in whatever respect, whether it be Ironman or half Ironman or your first sprint triathlon, marathon, right? We know that there can be some nasty thoughts that, that pop up, or, you know, your body's tired and you want to stop. And so practicing being able to think about other things while you do something hard helps with this distraction component and can really allow you to be able to get through those tough spots. Very cool.

You just gave me another idea for a podcast, maybe with our new coach Peter or Carly or Ryan, or maybe a whole podcast on how to eat for a long distance swim. I mean, so many ideas, Maggie.

So many ideas. Yes.

Um, I wanted to touch on something real quick. If you guys haven't listened to the podcast on SwimRun, uh, I definitely encourage going back to that cuz my friend Josh and I did that race. Swimmer in North Carolina in November of 2021. The water was 48 in the river and 54 in the lake, and there were people dropping like flies. So that was my, like, yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah.

That was my real, like, first experience with being just colder than what I ever thought I ever could experience. And that was probably the only, like, breaking point for me to try it is that I had to, I was like dependent on, or somebody else was depending on me. So that was my motivation. Otherwise, heck no.

You think I'm gonna get that?

No, no. Thank you. So I have so many people who say like, oh, I would totally do swimrun if it weren't so cold. Friends, that's the point.

It's a challenge for a reason.

Yeah, it is a challenge for a reason. So anyway, I encourage people to go back. And listen to that one. And then we're gonna, we're gonna have to follow you on your 31-mile swim.

Yeah.

I feel another podcast coming on after office. So yeah. All right. So let's tie it all together. What are some of the, like the top 2 or 3 things that you want people to walk away with as it relates to this topic? Long-distance swimming or deliberate cold exposure?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is to stay Start slow, and if you're interested in these mental, physical performance-related benefits, then just start every morning. Turn your shower a little bit colder right at the end, and it doesn't have to be big, right? So when we're starting new things, we always think of a big step, and it doesn't have to be a big step, just a little notch on your, on your shower, and it can really help with not only, you know, these dopamine releases or things like that, or anti-inflammatory, but also just being able to have grit and get through the hard, the hard things that you encounter in your life, at work, or in your endurance race training.

Very cool. You know, and as you said that, it made me think that they're researching this for, um, recovering addicts. And it's working.

Oh, interesting. Oh, wow. Cool. Yeah.

Yeah. So, which is amazing for those like chemical changes in our brain, right? With other substances, replacing it with cold water.

Oh yeah. And there are effects in terms of like anxiety and depression of like breaking a thought spiral. It's also like shown to like ignite thought processes in your brain. So we've joked before in math seminar rooms about having showers.

Oh my gosh, I would love to be a fly on the wall in there.

Um, so yeah, just, just take the plunge. No, just try and start small and, and that small value is going to be different every day. So have grace and know that each day is going to be a little bit different. And so some days maybe you'll be up for it and some days maybe you won't. And just take those days that you are up for it and make a little step forward.

Great way to end it, Maggie. That was awesome. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for chatting.

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