How to Choose the Right Running Shoes Ep 5

So shoes are kind of like that. Like there's pros and cons to a minimalist shoe. There's pros and cons to a maximalist shoe. There's pros and cons to, um, different types of shoes. And the key is, and runners are very educated individuals. The key is education and knowing what those pros and cons are and knowing who you are as a runner and what may benefit you.

Welcome to the Find Your Edge podcast. Get ready to dive into all things training, nutrition, recovery, and more. Whether you're a new or experienced endurance athlete, a weekend warrior, or someone who just wants to improve your health and fitness, this podcast is for you. I'm Chris Newport, founder, head coach, registered dietitian, exercise physiologist, and certified personal trainer with the Endurance Edge and the Fueling Edge. With more than 20 years experience in the fitness industry, 18 years in multi-sport, and over 10 years as a sports nutritionist, I'm speaking with athletes and experts about key action actionable steps you can take to reach and sustain peak performance and health. Let's do it. All right. Welcome back to the Find Your Edge podcast. This is your host, Chris Newport. And today I have a repeat guest, Lee Welch from The Running PTs. Welcome back to the show.

Thank you. I appreciate you having me.

So if you guys have not caught the last episode on running economy and How to improve your running form. It's great. And kudos to you, Lee, because that is the second most listened to episode that we've had right behind sleep, which I don't know why I find that hilarious that people want to run really well and they want to sleep really well.

Yeah.

So I just FYI, just so you guys know, Lee is wearing a mask, so he might be a little bit muffled, but we're going to do our best to to work through that audio. So how, so speaking of wearing a mask, how have things been going with COVID Yeah.

Uh, better than I would have expected. We have seen a lot of new runners to the sport that people that traditionally, you know, work out at the gym have taken up running. And so that's been really fun to work with people that are really thirsty to learn and may not have as much of a baseline knowledge as the triathlete population. Uh, which are some of the most educated patients we work with. So we've seen a lot of new runners and we're not seeing a lot of the individuals that are, were racing, you know, a year or two years ago, you know, because I think they're, you know, they're being smart and they don't have to push themselves as much. So they're not getting hurt as much, but the new runners are the ones that we're seeing more and more frequently.

I heard somebody say that there is no excuse to be injured right now. Like minimal races. Is that a good thing for you guys or a bad thing? It's kind of a catch-22. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I mean, ultimately on like being honest, like that's my, my goal is for people not to get hurt. I mean, that's what we're here for. We do our best to try to keep people injury-free so they don't have to come back, but yeah, using rest to your advantage. Is always the best, the easiest strategy. And it's your body knows how to heal itself. And so, yeah, during this time, you know, if you're working on volume and something sneaks up, you know, just take a day off. Like, so easier for triathletes if you're cross-training and you got more than one sport, but it's harder for runners to take a day off.

That is something I struggle with all the time is it's almost like you're in the cool kids club if you do more volume.

Yeah.

And sometimes it's, at least in my book, it's, it's about better quality training rather than beating yourself up. And I'm sure you see this too, that it's, that it's so individualized, like injury propensity. Do you, do you see like repeat customers because of that or?

Yes. Yeah, definitely.

So you mentioned, uh, we're, we're going to talk about shoes today. I'm super excited about that. Um, so you mentioned in your last episode that we did with you that you see several people because of improper running shoes. So tell us a little bit more about that. What types of injuries are you seeing? Is there anything that we can do to prevent that?

Yeah. The, the types of injuries we see a lot because of improper shoes have to do with typically controlling movement in what we call the transverse plane. So transverse plane is like imagine you had a dowel or a broomstick in front of you and you're, you were spinning something around it. That's the transverse plane. So you have muscles that control movement in that plane and an improper shoe fit can overstress those muscles. Those muscles are like reins on a horse that kind of control, you know, your, your body in that plane. So like, Your posterior tib is an example. We see a lot of posterior tib syndrome and with the wrong shoe fit. Peroneal is on the opposite side of the leg. That's on the outside of the leg, so like lateral shin pain, like on the, the side, we call it your shank. Peroneal tendonitis, shin splints, classic overuse injury, but that can be related to shoes and, and knee pain too, because the knee is really sensitive to movement in that plane. So those are some of the big injuries we see because of improper shoe fit could cause irregular movement in that plane, among other things, but that, that'd be the big one. So the easiest way to say that is like not enough support for somebody that needs it. Not everybody needs it, but there's different foot types. You know, you've got, you've got 4 or 5 basic foot types and certain foot types need, you know, to have something underneath the bottom of their foot. If, in, in most circumstances, something, something more supportive.

So, so it kind of seems like— and I get that running stores or, um, like, you know, there's like different fit systems that they're, you know, obviously trying to sell shoes or trying to sell a certain system. Does that— yeah, I think that those are good starting places for people, or does some of that like grind your nerves at all?

No, I think— I mean, we see the ones that I wouldn't expect somebody doing a shoe fit to necessarily see, right? So the ones that, but we're not seeing the ones that they all, they, they've done the right thing with. So yeah, I mean, absolutely. That's the best place to start is to get a, get a proper shoe fit. And sometimes that involves an insert with a certain foot type. It has more to do with how your foot moves than necessarily your arch type. So not everybody needs an insert. You know, sometimes it bothers me when I see everybody getting put in inserts because, you know, I hate to sentence someone to an insert if they don't need it, but certain people do. But yeah, without a doubt, that's the best place to start. You know, especially in the Triangle, the people selling shoes in this area do a really good job with fitting.

Yes, I agree. We're pretty darn lucky to have some pretty awesome shops around here. So tell me a little bit more about the insert. So it's not just about our foot type, it's how we move. And then also, um, it kind of makes me think like, do we need inserts in like our regular shoes? Granted, uh, I'm, I'm wearing slippers at the moment because I'm at home. So I don't know how many people are like wearing other types of shoes, but so tell me about that, like shoe to shoe, regular versus running, and then like And then the inserts.

Yeah. So I think it's first and foremost, I think it's good for feet to be resilient. You know, like I think, I think people should have the ability to stand at home barefoot, you know, for a period of time and not feel like they have to be in shoes or OOFOS all the time. Like your feet, you know, having some resiliency to them is important. And generally runners, when I recommend an insert, they don't necessarily need one in there. Walking shoe, they need one in their running shoe because the movement is more extreme, right? So we're trying to— an orthotic really should dampen the movement, slow it down a little bit, and take away like the extreme positions, right? Which you may not reach those when you walk, but when you run, the movement is bigger, more explosive, thus the need for an insert. And what an insert really does in The majority of cases we're trying to control pronation. There are sometimes when we're actually trying to encourage pronation because somebody doesn't pronate at all if they have a really stiff big toe. And, you know, most of the time we're trying to control a little bit of pronation, and most of the time that happens at the rear foot. So like most orthotics are made to control pronation back at the heel and the rear foot, like a Superfeet, which is a great insert. But there's certain people that, that will— their pronation comes from a different part of their foot, or it happens somewhere else. If their arch collapses, if they pronate through their midfoot, or if their big toe is really flexible and their big toe gets pushed up out of the way, they end up bearing weight on their second toe versus their first. Those are the individuals that need a different type of insert, not necessarily a Superfeet, something that has support in a different area, like a metatarsal pad or a little first ray cutout or like a wedge in their forefoot, and that's something that I wouldn't expect like a non-healthcare professional to get right every time, you know, like, so dampening the pronation is usually what we're trying to do, and we do that with a, with an insert that just has a little bit of a wedge underneath your rear foot and a little bit of arch support. I always say pronation is the act of getting your big toe down to the ground or your arch down to the ground, right? So everybody pronates. It's normal. You should pronate. It's healthy. It's how you, it's how you control and dampen the ground reaction force. So your foot becomes a little more supple when you pronate, and it doesn't— basically allows you to absorb energy a little more gradually. So it's healthy, but a lot of us like to pronate too far or too fast. And those are the times where that becomes a problem or that in those instances it can create problems. And that's when we need to intervene.

So inserts are a good thing. And obviously from a healthcare professional, you guys are seeing different things than they may see at the running store or wherever they're getting their shoes. But I would imagine that the shoe industry is doing a lot of these similar types of technologies to control that pronation. So. We were just talking a little bit before we started about like how cool some of the new technologies are. So, you know, I see everything from like, I was just sort of scrolling through the latest of like, you know, what's on Runner's World, what's on the shoe industry sites. And they have everything from like different types of foam. And then of course the minimal movement that was kind of hot. I don't know, maybe 8, 10 years ago. And then it's sort of shifted to the more of a maximal movement or, uh, or shoe. So it's confusing and perhaps overwhelming, but what have you seen that's beneficial or perhaps maybe even harmful or even used improperly? Because I can definitely say I've used minimal shoes and ran way too far, way too soon and got injured. That was, that was a dumb mistake, but like, are you seeing things like that with some of these new technologies?

Yeah, I think yes, we are. I, I really like the. The trends and the shifts in the shoe company and how the, you know, a lot of— there's a lot of options. And I look at it like, you know, like different knives, you know, for cooking. Like, it, you know, they all have— there's pros and cons to each one, right? And so you might not want to just use the same knife to, to cook with, but, you know, in some instances you need to be taught what the differences are. And so shoes are kind of like that. Like, There's pros and cons to a minimalist shoe. There's pros and cons to a maximalist shoe. There's pros and cons to, um, different types of shoes. And the key is, I mean, runners are very educated individuals. The key is education and knowing what those pros and cons are and knowing who you are as a runner and what may benefit you. Right. And what may harm you. And that's where like understanding yourself a little bit more becomes important. And, um, you know, a lot of the runners I work with know a lot of these things about shoes, but so, you know, generally you take a minimalist shoe, which is a shoe that has a 0-degree heel-toe drop. So the height of the heel minus the height of the forefoot, you know, that would equal 0. That's a, that's a 0-degree heel-toe drop. Heel-toe offset or heel-toe drop shoe. Minimalist shoes are going to have a 0mm drop, and they won't have what's called a shank in the back of the— back two-thirds of the shoe, which is a hard piece of plastic that kind of prevents the shoe from deforming in the rear of the shoe. Uh, whereas most shoes have a little bit of heel-toe drop to them, upwards of like 12mm. And most shoes have a shank in the back and it may have different densities, different lengths, but you, if you, so if you take somebody and put them in a minimalist shoe, what's going to happen is they're naturally going to transition to running a little bit more on the ball of their foot, which we know offloads the knee and the hip and puts more of the load down at the foot and ankle. So a mid-forefoot strike puts 47 more body weights per mile through your calf and Achilles and your foot. So you're, you know, that, that to me, that's just information, right? Which one's better? You know, it really depends on the individual and how you're moving, you know, up the chain. It's not all about the foot. So we see a lot of people that go minimalist too quick and they end up with foot and ankle injuries, um, or Achilles pain, a lot of calf tears. And so, like you said, we got the maximalist movement after that. And, you know, I think a lot of the reasons that people prefer some of those maximal shoes is that foam is, you know, that the foam has really improved over the last few years. The foam in some of those maximalist shoes is really light and responsive. And they're not as heavy as they look. Um, and the other thing with a lot of those, you know, what Hoka did when they came out with the Maximalist shoe is it had a rocker bottom to it. And that rock— you notice now all these shoe companies are coming out with shoes that have a rocker bottom to them. And that rocker bottom is, it's easier to get to the ground with a midfoot strike if the shoe has a rocker to it. And it's easier to get off the ground a little bit faster if your shoe has a rocker to it. Those rocker bottom shoes are typically pretty stiff and responsive. And so when you run in them, they feel like you want to get through mid-stance, get through your, your stance a little bit faster. They feel like they have a quicker ride to them and they're really light. So, you know, those were really popular too. And so to me, you know, knowing things, you know, about the shoes, to me, it's just information. It's like, like using a knife for looking at real estate. There's pros and cons to each, right? So. Then problems happen when there's a wrong fit, or if somebody hasn't addressed their form, they have a lot of transverse plane movement. That's that spinning around the broomstick and they go into a minimalist shoe. We know that when you go minimalist for about the first 4 weeks, you'll run with a forefoot strike. But if you traditionally were a rearfoot striker, the research shows that you're going to revert to that once you, your foot gets used to that minimalist shoe. And so we saw somebody, you know, this week that had done that. And, you know, we see injuries as a result of that, that transition to minimalist with a lot of transverse plane movement. They never really control that. And then they revert back to their old habits and that's when the injury shows up. So, and a lot of runners aren't aware they're doing that. They feel like they're running midfoot in that minimalist shoe, but they're not. So anyway, interesting. Yeah. You'd be surprised how frequently that happens.

So it's, so it's, it sounds like you're, while you might be trying to run a little bit more forefoot or midfoot, you're probably just going to revert back to your old habits.

We see that a lot. And maybe those are just the ones that get hurt. Right. So I don't, you know, but we, the re— there is a research, there are some research studies on that that show that, that runners will revert if they're not given feedback consistently for the first like 6 weeks.

So I know you've, you've done this with some of our athletes and, um, and Michael talked about this a little bit, um, in, in your last, uh, podcast about like devices. Is that a good tool for like reminders? Cause it seems to me that when, when we've worked together with, you know, in conjunction with other patients or athletes, a lot of it is just mindfulness.

Yeah.

It's just reminding yourself. Yeah. And I try to encourage people. Okay. Well, when your mile ding clicks over, what are you thinking about? So do you think that those types of things help or is there another way that we can address? Some of that, you know, if we're going into our new shoe or we want to run a new way, how do we keep that?

Yeah, mindfulness is the key. We, in, you know, in the PT world, we call that feedback. So there's different types of feedback. There's continuous feedback, which would be running on a treadmill with a video live feed in front of you, right? So we use that in the clinic. Continuous feedback is really powerful because you can see yourself in real time, you can see what the changes are making, you can reinforce And then like blocked feedback would be, you know, feedback kind of in stages or at the end. The type of continuous feedback while running would be to look at your watch and see what your cadence is or listen to a metronome. But the key is to me, the key is some sort of feedback. And you need to have confidence that what you're doing is correct. That to me, that's the most important thing is the confidence. That what you're doing is correct. And like you said, mindfulness, it really is just mindfulness. So I, when I send people home with form changes, it's like, in some cases it's like sending a kid home with, with math homework, right? Like, are you going to get this graded or not? You know, like somebody needs to grade this to make sure you did it right. And if the, if the, if a runner is confident that they have some sort of like way to check themselves, with some sort of feedback, then I'm confident that they're going to be able to make that change. But if not, then they need, they need someone to help them to confirm what they're doing is working or not, whether it's a coach or a PT or like video. But when it comes down to it, it is all about mindfulness. So I have found the best way to work on form is initially is to do intervals. So that you have to physically stop and then you can check back in, uh, with yourself when you start again. So doing 2, 3, 4 minute intervals, you can pay attention for that long. Right. And then your mind is going to drift, you know, a little bit after that. So you don't want your mind to drift early. And then the other way is with hill repeats and strides, you know, that's, that's when form. You really can teach yourself the cues or the techniques that you're, that you're working on. And really your body can really start to re— you can reinforce those to your body and then you'll start to learn those movement patterns a little bit better, a little more ingrained.

So you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Oh yeah.

That's what you're saying.

Yeah. Yeah. Some people are better at it than others, but it's like dancing, you know?

Yeah.

I mean, yeah. You definitely can. And some cues are easier than others. Some form changes are easier than others, but—

So let's, let's go back to our, I know that we kind of touched on the maximal issue. Um, what about for people, you know, we work with some older runners who might start to see some signs of arthritis and I kind of tell people, it's like, well, you know, your knees, your hips or whatever. It's kind of like, yeah. How do you want to spend them? Is that something that can help people with, uh, like some sort of like a degenerative joint disease or an -itis of some sort?

Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, the shoe to me, it's all, it's taking advantage of mechanics. And if the, like, say somebody has got bilateral knee arthritis and they just want to run as long as they can, like for as long as they can, for as many years as they can. Then without a doubt, they need to know what's going to offload your knees. So a lower, a lower drop shoe. Uh, a lot of the maximalist shoes are lower than a traditional shoe. They're, you know, in the 4 to 5 millimeter range, which is considered low on the lower end. So a lower drop shoe increases leverage at your foot and ankle, decreases leverage at your knee and your hip, which is a good thing for somebody that has knee arthritis. And then with those individuals, like, You know, knowing what the research says about a mid or forefoot strike versus a rearfoot strike, that's going to offload your knees. And so those individuals would need to— you can take advantage of the shoe, a lower drop maximalist shoe, yes, for the knee and, and a mid or forefoot strike. The key is just, you know, your bodies are resilient. They can take, you know, they can take a lot, but you just need to do it gradually. So one of the most common things we see are calf strains in men over 40. And you take, you take a man that's over 40, that's been running for years in a traditional shoe and change them to a forefoot strike with a lower drop shoe. And that's a recipe for a calf tear if they don't do it gradually. Now they can learn, but you need to take your time. And, um, that's what's when it's important to to be okay with taking that time to transition and not having a bunch of races on the calendar, that might not be the best time to do that.

So what about, um, what about knee replacements? Can people run with a good quality shoe through knee replacements or does it depend?

So from what, you know, orthos I work with tell me, it's not a good idea to— they have a shelf life, right? And so they typically don't recommend it. I know runners, that have had them that are running on them. It's not the, it's not the standard recommendation from the orthopedists that are doing the surgery. So, you know, they take that a little personally.

Yeah. I'm assuming you want to keep a good relationship with those guys and gals.

Yeah, that's right.

Uh, awesome. So now that we've gotten a good shoe, The industry is so fun and they like to change it on us. So how do, how do we deal with that? It's like, you know, it's like getting a good like blankie and you don't want to give it up and then they switch it. So, and then I've also seen you actually on the, um, in your 3D, we've seen the 3D in action, which is super cool. Yeah. You guys haven't actually seen that in action or done it yourself. I highly recommend it, especially if you're somebody who really wants to get faster, or you're dealing with those chronic injuries, but I've seen you actually have people change out shoes.

Yeah.

How much can that really change things both between shoe models for speed, for, for anything like that?

Yeah. So the, the first question about dealing with a different shoe, you know, the way I would answer that is, you know, the shoe companies are really doing their best to try to make the best shoe. And, you know, our feet are really sensitive. They have a lot of nerves in them. And so we're going to notice little changes. They're going to feel big to us. I always use the— I like analogies. I use the— if any of you guys have had braces before, I use the analogy of like braces, you know, like you get braces, it feels really weird and then you get used to it and it feels normal. So like you get your braces tightened, it feels really weird and then you get used to it. You know, changes in shoes, they're doing their best to try to make the best shoe. They're, they're not intentionally trying to get you to buy a different shoe. Um, they're trying to hit that sweet spot in the middle of the bell curve for them to get the most people the best shoe that they can put out. And so for me, like, yeah, it might feel a little bit different, but that doesn't mean that it's, it's a major overhaul, right? It does happen. And there are certain, I mean, the shoe that I run in, there's been models that are not as good as some of the models before. It's like they did something and it didn't work. And yeah, but, but in most cases, if you, if you get through that 2-week kind of learning curve, you know, you'll get, you'll get used to the shoe. So I have found the best way to do that is to, is to buy the new shoe before your old one is worn out and kind of transition into the new one. Like every other run so that your feet— again, goes back to resiliency. Like, you know, I think your feet should be resilient, and in an ideal world, we would all be able to run in anything and it wouldn't matter what shoes on our foot, right? But, you know, that would take time, that would take consistency, that would take a little bit of work on the prevention side. But, um, but yeah, for the most part, I think people would get used to the shoe Over time, there are exceptions to that.

So that just reminded me of the flip-flop run. So you're saying we can all run in flip-flops?

Your body can do a lot if you, if you, if you give it time, you know, I've seen some pretty amazing, some amazing feats, but, uh, anyway.

So yeah, touch on the 3D and, and swapping out shoes and how much, how much, like, have you seen? Really large differences? Is it small? Like, what have, what have you seen in your experience?

So the differences are measurable on the 3D, particularly in that transverse plane and frontal plane, which is, you know, where that accessory movement is occurring. Uh, so like the shoe doesn't change you as a runner that much. So like looking at, you know, you know, 20,000-foot view of how you run, like you kind of are who you are. To change that takes intention, right? It takes practice. And, um, so we're talking about things like posture and do you sit back, do you lean forward, you know, do you lean from the waist, how long is your stride, like those sorts of things don't really change much with the shoe. But we do see changes in like pronation and, and even as far up as the hip They're hard to see, but you can measure them with the 3D. So, and that really just boils down to how much control the shoe is giving you versus the other shoe. So, you know, people are interested in doing that to see how the shoe or the orthotic is changing their movement and to see what is better. And that's always a useful strategy, but the differences are small but important, but they're, They happen at an imperceptible level, really, you know, again, in that kind of transverse plane, controlling the knee and the foot a little bit more.

So very cool. So that, that kind of leads me to my next idea. And you've kind of touched on this a little bit, like transitioning from old shoes into new shoes. I'll have to admit, I'm terrible about that. I will wear the snot out of my shoes and then suddenly go, oh, oh, maybe I should get a new pair. Um, so maybe I'll listen to your advice, but what about the people who, I mean, I know I've got a closet full of running shoes and a lot of other people do. What about the running, having one shoe for racing, having one shoe for training. And my biggest concern, I think with that is I see so many people who train in one type of shoe and then they race, especially long course like marathon and Ironman. I feel like that might be a recipe for disaster. Does it depend on the person or does it really matter?

Yeah, I definitely think that there's some, there are people that can get away with that, uh, because they've got good form. They have what I would call a quote unquote normal foot type, right? There's no such thing as a normal foot, but they have the closest thing to a normal foot. They have good form for certain people. And you will see that. You do see that now, especially with some of the You know, what the shoe companies have done with the, the carbon plates, you know, they don't want to put a lot of miles on those shoes in training. So they, they just race in that shoe. So yeah, there are certain people that can get away with it, I would say. And there's people that can't, and it comes down to resiliency. And, you know, if your body— can your body tolerate those changes? Is it a good idea? It depends. In an ideal world, we could all do that. Right. But I do think that you need to have some some experience running in that shoe on a consistent basis before you should race in it. So yeah, that would be my advice, and it's really individualized in my experience. Certain people can, can handle that change easier than others, but I do like, I do like to see people running in different shoes personally because, you know, variability is good, um, and being able to handle different, different shoes under your feet and different terrains and That's a good thing for your body.

So you say you're justifying our shoe habit is what I'm hearing.

I am a runner.

We are a little special in some ways. And last, last question. We're told, and of course all the different websites I went to as I was researching this, change your shoes every 300 to 500 miles. Does it, does it really matter? Does it depend on the shoe? Does it depend on the person?

Yeah. So here I would answer that question with some— if you think about a shoe, thinking about the different type, the different products in the shoe first. So you've got your outsole, which is the hard rubber on that bottom of the shoe, right? So that's the, that's a little heavier material. The more outsole, the longer it's going to take to wear out. The less outsole, the lighter the shoe is going to be. So there's, there's a compromise there. If you want a light shoe, the outsole may wear out a little faster if you don't have a lot of it. Then you have your midsole, which is the, like, the foam, you know, under your foot. In that midsole, in a lot of shoes, there's a shank, or the midsole is dense enough at the back of the shoe that it's not very flexible. So if most of you, if you took your shoe and you tried to fold it up, It would fold underneath the ball of your foot and it wouldn't fold very well in the back two-thirds of the shoe. Okay. So like, so the best way to answer that question is it depends on how much outsole you have. And it depends on the durability of the midsole, which is that the foam and that shank in the back two-thirds. And so like, it can be deceptive. If you have somebody that likes to run at Umstead. On, not on, not on the road, on trails, and their outsole is not going to wear out as fast as somebody that runs on the road, but their midsole may be deforming and becoming more flexible. So what I do is I tell people to look at the outsole and make sure you can't see the midsole. You shouldn't be able to see your midsole through the outsole and take your shoe and fold it up. And you should find that it's not, it shouldn't be bending further back than it initially was. So when you buy a pair of shoes and fold it up, you'll see how stiff they are. And over time, a shoe that has 500 miles on it that has a shank in the back, it'll fold up underneath your heel. It'll fold that far back. And so that is when the shoe needs to be replaced, when that midsole is starting to get worn out, or when your, your shoe is wearing into the— the outsole is wearing into the midsole. So it depends on the shoe. Some of the shoes that don't have a lot of outsole and not a lot and just have foam in the middle. Yeah. 300 miles is probably right. You take a shoe that has a thick outsole and a big old plate in the midsole, then they, they could last, you know, I have runners that use them 700, 800 miles and they're fine. So, but your form is an important component there too. Like certain people wear shoes out faster. If you're, if you're on the higher end of that, then I think that's okay. But that's the test that I would, I typically do is to just take my shoes and start to fold them up. And some people have a tell when their shoes are starting to get worn out. Like for me, the outside of my left knee starts to hurt a little bit, and that's because the shoe is starting to collapse a little bit more, um, because it's getting softer. And so that's typically when I know, and it's for me, it's usually around 400 miles. In the shoe that I run in.

But does it, does it matter whether we're running more on the treadmill or outside? I know you touched on like trail versus road, but you know, oh, I'm going to save my shoes and just run on the treadmill. Or, you know, let's say somebody who's doing like an Orangetheory class or, you know, that kind of thing. Does same, same kind of test apply to them?

I would do the same test. Yeah. You're— the outsole is not going to wear out as fast. On the treadmill, but you may, you may be getting a lot of deformation of the inner parts of the shoe that you can't see. So moisture has a lot to do with it too. Like if the shoes are getting wet, they're going to wear out faster. If you're running outside in the summer and you get really sweaty and then run in the same shoe again the next day and it hasn't really had a chance to dry out, and they wear, they'll wear out a little bit faster. But yeah, so that if you're just looking at the outsole then yeah, you could— it can be deceptive. You could be running trails or treadmill, and that may not wear out very fast, but the shoes may still need to be replaced earlier than you think. So, but I think the 300 to 500 miles, I still think that's a good recommendation for the shoes that we see, and I think that's legitimate. I don't think it's a ploy to try to get us to buy more shoes. I think it's, um, the shoes actually do wear out about around that, that distance.

So, so we always like to end our episodes with 2 to 3 tips to send people away, uh, either reiterating the tips that you've already talked about, like, you know, the 300 to 500 mile rule. What would be your, your tips to hopefully get, keep people running and, and hopefully make sure that people are in the right shoes? Yeah.

I mean, this, this may sound a little self-serving. Because this is what I do for a living, but this is me being honest. Like, I mean, I really think it's worth getting your form checked. I think a lot of injuries can be prevented, and education goes a long way, and it doesn't usually take very much. So if you've got a— if you have an injury or you had an injury that, you know, in the past that you think was related to form, insurance will cover gait analysis in those cases as long as you can tie it to an injury. And that goes along with, you know, just understanding who you are Understanding your form and how you move. Everybody's different. What kind of exercises you should be doing, what kind of shoes you should be wearing. We're all different and we shouldn't be doing the same stuff. So, so that would be my number one tip, um, because we, we can prevent a lot of these injuries from occurring. And then I think the second one would be just take, to take advantage of shoes with what you, you know, or you've learned. In terms of heel-toe drop, you know, the lower heel-toe drop is going to offload the knee. It's going to load your foot and Achilles a little bit more, but you may get a more responsive, what I like to call ride. You know, you may, you may feel like you've got a little more turnover and a little more get-up in a lower drop shoe. You could take advantage of a rocker-bottom shoe. Um, a rocker-bottom shoe, we know, offloads the calf and Achilles. They, um, they have typically have a quicker feel to them. So, you know, that really, that's what, to me, that's what shoes are. You can take advantage of the pros and cons, but you need to know who you are as an individual and what boxes you need to check off.

Very cool.

I love that.

I dig it. So Lee, if anybody is local to the area, how do they get ahold of you or get an appointment with you at your clinic?

The easiest way would be to Uh, we, you can do a web inquiry on our webpage, which is therunningpts.com, or send an email to info@therunningpts.com.

And what if they want to do a 3D analysis? That's the only thing that's not covered by insurance, correct?

Correct. The 3D is not covered by insurance. There's 35 markers on your body and 12 infrared cameras. And we do those if they want to do that same way, they can set it up the same way. And we're doing those right now for $175, which is— we have a biomechanist now that does the analysis. And then I do the— I get the report. We get a report with like 50+ graphs. He does the analysis. I take the report and digest it, give some tips and pointers, and then they follow up with me. A week later to get their results and form changes and exercises. And so it's really comprehensive. So that's a, that's a tremendous, uh, deal that, yeah, that's, that's ridiculous.

How long is that going on?

I don't know yet. Undetermined, but it won't be that low forever.

Okay. Yeah, definitely. If you guys are around, definitely take advantage of that. It is, the report is so cool.

Thank you.

Yeah. And, and the care that you give people afterwards is that it's not like, oh, here's your report. This is how you run. And it's a very, it's a long report. And for just the average Joe looking at that, they'll have no idea what to do with that. So you're really good about translating it and then giving people a very specific, uh, whether it be stretches or strengthening movements or just general feedback on mindfulness and things like that. So.

That's awesome. We put a lot of time into those, into those reports. Um, they're not boilerplate, you know, they're very individualized and I think the product is really good. So I appreciate that.

Awesome. All right. Lee Welch from The Running PTs. Thank you so much for joining us again. And, uh, just a reminder, therunningpts.com. And of course, if you want to get ahold of us, theenduranceedge.com.