Hypermobility in Athletes: How to Train Smarter for Longevity Ep 126

Every endurance athlete remembers the moment when things finally click. Your swim feels smoother, your pacing makes sense, your fueling works, and suddenly the sport feels not only easier, but more fun. And for many athletes, that moment happens at training camp. That's exactly why we created the Endurance Edge Triathlon Training Camp happening April 22nd through 26th at Lake Jocassee in South Carolina. For 4 incredible days, you'll train in a small group with expert coaches, sports nutrition support, and sports psychology guidance, all designed to help you train smarter, race stronger, and finally connect the dots in your performance. We swim in crystal clear mountain water, ride beautiful and challenging roads, run scenic trails, and spend the rest of the time recovering, learning, laughing, and eating some seriously amazing chef-prepared food. Mm-hmm. Camp is intentionally small, just 20 athletes, so you get real coaching, true connection, and amazing breakthroughs. So if you want an experience that can transform your entire season, we invite you to join us. Head to theenduranceedge.com and click training camp and reserve your spot with just a $100 deposit. Come train hard, learn a ton, and leave stronger than you ever imagined. I'll see you there. All right, welcome back to the Find Your Edge podcast. I've got Holly Burt here with me, and I am so excited to hear about your lovely soapbox. So before you even introduce yourself, what is your soapbox about? Hypermobility.

Give us just like a little tease, and then we'll talk about you and we'll get into all these So I feel like it's something that so many people are walking around this planet with, and yet they either have no idea or they— it's getting missed, or it is the overall arching umbrella for a plethora of health problems that they have. And so for me, it became this, like, this thing that I can spot when someone walks in the room. I'm like, oh, yep, they're hypermobile. And they're like, what? What? And it has opened so many doors for people. So my soapbox is mainly just along the lines that it's something that I feel like is starting to get some chatter, but for a long time has been overlooked.

So I love it. Okay, cool. So, Holly Bart, welcome to the show and tell us about yourself.

I'm a physical therapist. I have a wellness center called State of the Art located in Raleigh in the Five Points area. We actually just moved to a big new clinic. I've been practicing—

Beautiful, by the way.

Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Got some strength classes on Monday and Wednesday nights there. Yeah, yeah. A little shout out. I have been practicing dancing for 16 years going on 17. Holy moly. I'm a Raleigh native, which is rare, and I left, went to school, practiced. My, my soapbox started when I started with the— I worked backstage with the Washington Ballet in D.C., and that was my first. Yeah, it was so cool. And so dancers obviously super hypermobile and yet very strong, you know. And so that became my passion early, early on. And then it started filtering into what I'll call the normal population that aren't professional dancers. And I just started recognizing it everywhere. So that's my background. But yeah, I moved back to Raleigh in 2015. And I've been setting up shop here ever since.

That's so cool. You're like the hypermobile sensor. Like, I know it.

See, I worked with a doctor and he told me that he could shake someone's hand and tell if they were hypermobile. And I thought he was just like a voodoo doctor.

And now I'm like, oh, like, I can see it in the waiting room.

So, um, yeah, so now I guess I'm the voodoo doctor.

You are the voodoo doctor. So good.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness. But you know what, that is like— I love that you found your purpose and your passion. Yeah, that is— that's truly like, to me, that's voodoo. That's good voodoo.

It's good voodoo.

Totally good voodoo.

Kind. I do stab people with needles, dry needling, but, you know, still, maybe it's real voodoo. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, it's so good. All right, so you worked with professional dancers, and I'm gonna give a little shout out to yourself cuz I know you're probably gonna be too modest to say this, but you somewhat recently got into triathlon and also have been freaking crushing it.

Thank you.

Um, just had a nice little trip to Worlds.

The best. Yes, yes, yeah.

So, so good. So now, so like you're in the multi-sport lifestyle, like it is part of your needs.

Fully addicted. Yeah. I told Chris before we got started that I just did an FTP test about 1 hour ago, so we're gonna see how my brain is working right now.

If that were me, I would be eating cookies while on this call and drinking probably a mocha.

Yes, yes. This is, this is some, some warm, warm coffee, much needed post, post, post Yeah, so good.

Okay, so tell us about hypermobility. Like, what, what is it? And we know that you're the, the voodoo doctor and you can sense it, but clearly other people can't sense it. So like, what is it and why is it that so many people don't know that they have it?

Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about the difference between hypermobility and flexibility. Mobility is something that is in your collagen, in your skeletal system. So you have two things that hold your joints together. You have muscles tendons. The tendons are the end of a muscle, and you have ligaments. Everyone has all of those things. That is universal for human beings. Hypermobile people, their ligaments, I say, are— they're overstretched like an overstretched rubber band. And they were made that way. That it is sometimes it was acquired, which I'll talk about in a second. But most of the time, it is just how you were put together. And that affects not only your joints, So, you're bendy, if you will, double-jointed. Maybe when you were a child, you could do cool party tricks like backbend or put your foot behind your head or those sort of things. But, it also affects your gut in terms of your digestion, which you could potentially speak to, Chris, your eyes, your vision, migraines, headaches, your skin, the elasticity in your skin. So, you start to see all these plethora of problems under what is now actually coded in the medical world as hypermobility syndrome. Finally, there's been enough recognition that you don't just have to have a genetic disorder like Ehlers-Danlos to be hypermobile. They've figured out that there's an entire spectrum, kind of like with autism. They figured out that there's a whole spectrum, you know, that people can be on. Same thing with hypermobility. There is a whole spectrum that you could be on and you could just be slightly above average and, and not know it. Right. Because most people, I think, though, if you're hypermobile, you're a professional dancer. And that is not necessarily true. And then take that into the endurance world, we're dealing with really strong humans. And when there's strength, it can mask the hypermobility piece because you're strong, so your muscles are making up for the laxity in ligaments. So, yeah. So, that is hypermobility. Flexibility is more something that's acquired. You work to be able to touch your toes and you work to be able to stretch a little bit. So, you're stretching the innate composite of the joint.

So how common is this? Because I mean, I feel like I see people who are just not mobile or not flexible.

Yes. Yes. So it seems like it's rare.

But tell us about that.

No, it's much more common in women, I will say. I mean, I would put like 60% of my caseload as hypermobile and not knowing it. Sometimes they come through the door and they know it. But most of the time they don't, they just know that they're coming for for back pain or for neck pain or for this clicking in their shoulder that won't go away, that sort of thing. And then I have to teach them about their body and educate them. But I would say, I mean, I truly think like half the people in the world are hypermobile, but I do not have stats for you. But that's just my— that's just my made-up stat that I have. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, cool.

But we're talking about on the spectrum, right? So meaning if 0 is the most inflexible person you've ever seen and 10 is that Gumby dancer, You're a 6, so you're just slightly more mobile than the person next to you in Pilates class, but not so mobile that you really know it. But it shows up in ways, it shows up in anecdotes like, okay, when you sit, can you not sit still? You can never find a comfortable position. Or is it really comfortable for you to sit on your feet in this really funky— I call them fidget, they are fidgeters because you can't find a comfortable position because your joints are always moving. So, they're these little cues that I'll ask questions and it helps people tease out like, oh, I didn't know that's why I did that, or I didn't even know I was doing that. I thought everyone did that. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's almost like that's maybe not quite a red flag, but like an indicator. Yeah, maybe you don't have ADHD. Yeah, your body just doesn't feel good and it just doesn't feel—

it's trying to find what it's trying to find in range. The body feels actually comfortable when it's hypermobile, it feels comfortable when it's compressed. So that could be like you sleep with your hands behind your head, or like just funky little things that again, you think everyone does. And unless you're hypermobile, you don't do that. And then the other piece that I typically educate on is people are like, but okay, I hear you saying I'm hypermobile, but why am I so tight? Like you say I'm hypermobile, but like, look at my hamstrings. Like, My— like, why am I so tight? And that is where me as a PT and then working with personal trainers and doing strength sessions, like, you're tight because your muscles are weak. So your muscles are having to do twice as much work as the person next to you who's not hypermobile because they have ligaments that help them hold themselves together. And you have ligaments, but they're not doing anything. And so your muscles have to be twice as strong. So, the only way they feel strong is to be tight. And so, it is the hardest pill to get my hypermobile patients to swallow where I'm like, "You know how you love to stretch and stretch and go to yoga class and get tons of massages because you just feel so tight?" They're like, "Yes." I'm like, "Is that working?" "Well, no." "Okay. So, you actually need to strengthen and that will make you looser." And they just are like, "What?" That makes no sense to me. Why? If it's tight, I don't want to strengthen it. And like, just give me a month and go strengthen and do the—

Trust the voodoo doctor.

Trust the voodoo doctor. Like, because the way that I explain it is your body's in panic mode all the time where it feels like, okay, I can't do what you're asking me to do. And so I'm just going to stay super tight because that's the only way I know how to hold you together. Well, if you pull and stretch on these muscles that are telling you, I don't feel comfortable, being loose, then it'll feel good for a second, but then they're just going to rebound to tight, if not tighter. So, the only way to actually ultimately get looser is to get stronger, which just seems, again, counterintuitive. I shouldn't go lift weights, that's just going to make me tighter. And it's actually like, no, actually, your body will feel less tight and your hamstrings can release because now you have your core holding you together instead of your hamstrings just screaming and holding on for dear life trying to hold you together because your hips are so loose. So yeah, yeah.

How does this manifest in different sports and in particular, you know, endurance sports? Like, do you see a lot of runners? Do you see a lot of triathletes? I feel like also swimmers. Like, when I look out my office door at all these swimmers and they can just fling their arms and all, I'm like, wow, that is—

yeah, you know, it's amazing. Yeah, yeah. And some of that could be acquired, you know, that they at a young age took a bar behind their head and were stretching their shoulders back and they actually have overstretched their ligaments, which by the way, you can't undo. Once they are stretched, they are stretched. So if I do get younger athletes, not that I want to discourage them from being good at their sport, but I do just try to encourage them more on that strength piece than just yanking on their joints. I would say it shows up in repetitive injuries, right? Because again, you're getting a lot of friction, tendonitis, bursitis. You're getting a lot of friction in some of these areas where again, there is connective tissue tightness. Because of that underlying weakness that we just spoke of. And so I see some issues there. Cardiovascularly, it can show up because it can affect your heart rate as well. So there may be some issues. And I, again, I don't have— this is going to be individualized. But, you know, a hypermobile person's zone 2 may be very different than someone that's not. So just understanding your own personal metrics becomes really important to not compare yourself to someone else if you're hypermobile. Or again, your heart rate could spike way higher than someone when you're going from the water to go upright to run to T1, because your body has to work so hard because the vascular system is overstressed, just like your ligaments trying to pump blood. So just being aware of that, like dizziness and seeing all the pretty colors, you know, that that is potentially something that is just— that has to do with the hypermobility, and you may have to take a moment. So that's kind of where I see it in that population. But as far as runners and swimmers, like I said, it would be seeing some of those friction syndromes, the tendonitis, the bursitis, repetitive ankle sprains, you know, because you just— there's a lack of what's called proprioception, which is the ability to know where your body is in space. Again, because there's the extra ligaments, the ligaments give your body feedback, and you have really extra stretchy ligaments. So when you hit end range, you're on the ground. Right? When someone else hit in, in range, their body can correct itself. So I see more commonly ankle sprains, that sort of thing. And so just balance training would be really important with a, with a hypermobile athlete there, more so again, than someone who doesn't, doesn't have that, that component in their body.

So what I'm hearing you saying is you might not just be a klutz.

Yeah, me, you know, I'm not hypermobile, but I, and I step on pine cones and sprain my ankle So I can't speak for myself personally, but yes, let's give, let's give the hypermobile people a pass. And yes, they're not just a klutz, they just— their body is working against them in a way.

So yeah, so almost more like spatial awareness and strength training, balance work is what I heard, and then just some grace and space. Like when you mentioned getting up out of the pool and like seeing stars, I know a lot of people will come to me and be like, is it my electrolytes? I mean, if we get those dialed in, then probably no. There are other things that go along with that.

It may just be if you take 5 seconds to breathe and let your body catch up, you're still going to have a quick T1 because you didn't faceplant, you know? You know, so I don't think you need to necessarily see it as a hindrance. Just like you said, it's more of a grace. It's more understanding. That's, you know, touching back to when you started. You're like, why is this your soapbox? I wanted to give that gift of I want you to understand your body and not hate it, you know, and see this as something that explains— instead of you having 18 things that are wrong with you, you only have one. And I'm not going to say it's wrong with you, you know, it's just something that you need to change how you approach things, how you train, and just give yourself, yeah, just that grace piece to help you be successful because certainly hypermobile could be excellent endurance athlete. Yeah. Just may have to work a little harder on the strength component or strengthen differently. Yeah. So, okay.

So, yeah. So, let's talk about that, especially knowing the demands of what goes into being an endurance athlete. It's almost like strength gets the short end of the stick. Yeah. I think that, you know, I think that all of us are on enough of a soapbox that people are making that shift. But still, it's a, it's a hard balance when people are like, okay, you want me to strength train 3 times a week, but then I also have to like swim so many times and bike so many times. And how many hours do I have in the day?

And you just have no social life like me. Yeah. Or just work and do triathletes. So yeah. Yeah. I think the strength piece though, I would argue You know, as I'm sure you'll support me on this, I mean, you know, if you have to cut down some of the other things in order to strengthen, it will carry over. It'll keep you injury-free, which would put you on the bench anyway, you know, if you're thinking about trying to have a long endurance career. And so, you know, but the, you know, the carryover to power on the bike, or, you know, just again, just overall core strength, so balance and bike handling skills, and, you know, strengthen the arms, lats and triceps to be able to pull your body through the water, all of that will carry over. But specifically with hypermobility, you're going to have better body awareness. If you have stronger muscles, that cardiovascular piece could potentially be better because you're, you know, your muscles are pumping blood up quicker to the heart and to the, to the brain when you get up really quickly. And so again, just having that better understanding of where your body is and being better in tune because the other piece that I find with the hypermobile is that you have a delayed onset soreness. And I'm not talking an hour, I'm talking a day. And so a lot of times these hypermobile people, I, you know, I don't feel it. So I did like 50 side leg raises instead of the prescribed 15. And now I hurt. And so counting becomes important, reps and sets become important, using a mirror for form becomes important, or even just looking around you and saying, okay, well, they're not so far forward, you know, and they're feeling stretched. So maybe I should back off this, you know, forward lunge a little better or something.

Yeah.

So, so that strength component becomes just, you know, a safety piece for your body and a check-in, but overall just makes you a better athlete, which would again just improve the longevity of your career and I would think improve your performance.

Yeah. And not only just of your career, but just in life.

Yeah, 100%.

Like, you know, I know that we're always talking about like, oh, you can do your sport longer. I'm like, how about you just do you longer?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And, you know, I feel like I just made a quotable moment right there. I'm just going to feel into that beginning of the podcast right there to get people to listen like that. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Yeah.

I mean, and the big— one of the big complaints I hear is like, strength training is so boring. And I feel like you just haven't found the right playlist mix.

Yeah.

I mean, well, could be playlists.

I mean, absolutely.

Music is one of those things, but Um, can strength training look different for somebody who's hypermobile than some, you know, like, oh, and oh my gosh, I mean, how many different colors could you paint strength training? You know, you could do the bodybuilder way, you could do the, um, you could use TRX, you can use body weight, you can use bands. And being hypermobile, I feel like maybe there is— there are diff— are there things that tend to improve satisfaction, or like Do you see where I'm getting at?

Yeah, I 100% do. I— this is where I maybe have a, like, Debbie Downer answer, um, in just the sense that the muscle burning or the satisfying stretch, those sort of things are often absent because by the time a hypermobile person is feeling a really good burn in their muscle, they probably should have stopped. And so I tell, I tell those patients to use a lot of tactile feedback, meaning use their fingers. So if you're doing, let's say, a clamshell, for example, sideline, put your hand on your booty and feel with your hand that muscle working so that you get that satisfaction of, okay, it is firm, it is working. I just don't feel like I'm doing anything. I train with someone who is hypermobile, and we do, you know, toe raises to work on the tibialis anterior, which is what can cause shin splints. And she swears she can do 100 and she doesn't feel anything. Here I am next door just burning, and I'm thinking, "You should stop. You shouldn't do 100 of those because tomorrow you're going to be like, 'Man, my shins are killing me. Why? What did I do?'" And so, I think using mirrors, using your hands, being present and counting reps and sets, finding that good— but you can lift heavy. I'm not saying to not do that. They're not a fragile egg. I want the strength component, but form becomes really important. You can't sling a kettlebell around because you don't have ligaments that are holding your shoulder together. So, be very aware of how you're moving. So, that seems a little less fun because you really do have to concentrate. I mean, I preach the quality over quantity all the time. If you can only give me 5 good minutes, I'll take those 5 good minutes where you're present and you know that your core is engaged, your pelvic floor is firing, your form is good over 25 minutes where you spaced out and did 100 toe raises and now you have shin splints. So I think maybe just using some things around you, maybe working out in a group, that can be a little bit more fun, I think, just to be aware there. We're actually trying. I don't have it yet, but I'm I'm trying to create a hypermobile strength class because of this. So that it's a group of people who can talk about their bendiness and still feel like they're working hard and throw in some balance training, some stuff that maybe you aren't used to doing, a lot of isometrics. So strong holds, you know, you can hold a 70-pound weight and hold a lunge, you know, that's fine. So I think maybe still finding that way to challenge yourself without the conventional strengthening can be a good way to make it a little bit more entertaining.

Those were all such great tips. And what I also heard you say is, wait a minute, I can do 5 minutes of strength training and still get something out of it?

Uh, you know, my magic number as a PT for homework is 3 exercises, cuz I have found that people will not do more than 3.

Yeah, they're not committed.

If I add more than 3 to their homework. So yes, I say give me 5 to 8 minutes a day. That is my, Like, that's what I tell people. I'm like, that you can do that. Like, you absolutely can give me 5 to 8 minutes of something concentrated. And then if it happens to be more, that's great. And if it doesn't, consistency is key, at least in this, in this vein, especially with the hypermobile population. But I'd say with any athlete, you know, so yes, I am saying that you can do. Yeah.

Which means, I mean, I guess theoretically, you could even do something like probably every day and maybe even multiple times a day.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I tend to— I'm like, if you, if you're going to pick something, I tend to go with the core. You know, if you only have 5 minutes, that's where I'd like— but I'm not talking V-ups and Russian twists. And, you know, we're talking probably more the— I'm a Pilates-biased person. I have— that's what I have in my clinic, the reformers and the apparatus Pilates. But you don't have that at home, but just doing core marches on a foam roll or bridges or side planks or elbow planks, you know, just holding the isometric core stuff. That's Typically what I say, if they— if people ask, what— where would you focus for me? Yeah. I start at the center because, you know, the appendages, you know, they can come secondary to a really strong center.

And then almost— I mean, obviously Pilates was created by a gentleman who wanted to support injured dancers. So it seems to me like Pilates is a really great fit because there is so much— from what I know of Pilates, there's so much control. And focus, which also leads me— there's a guy at one of the gyms I go to. Listen, I'm not, I'm not workout shaming, but he comes in and he's— I know that he's got a young baby and he comes in and he's like on speed. He's like, okay, you know, this, this moment, this moment. And it's just like, you know, lift, lift, lift, lift, lift. Like what I hear you saying is that's a really bad idea if you're hypermobile, like going through things at like warp speed.

1,000%. Yeah, again, form, form, form, form, and you'll get so much more again, out of 5 really slow side leg lifts with perfect form than 30, you know, Rockette style sidekicks, just in terms of the safety for your joints and your ligaments. And slow is hard and small range of motion is hard. So tiny little pulses, tiny little circles, you know, Squat holds, those sort of things. That's where the challenge piece can come in. So yeah, I would much rather do a big isometric circuit with someone than, yes, the workout on speed. Yeah.

So, yeah, so it almost sounds like swim, bike, run, Pilates.

Yeah. I mean, you know, if I had my druthers, yes. I think it's a great complement as a recovery. There's a— you contract the muscle and then you lengthen it. So it fits my mantra of stability before mobility. So you want to stabilize before you stretch something any anytime, especially with hypermobile. But I would argue it is much more rare, Chris, for me to get a very inflexible person on my schedule. And most of the time, it's a man over 50 that like hasn't moved and is set at a desk for a really long time. So it is much more common that I have to teach the stability piece. Other than— I rarely give stretches for homework, except just like go lie on the foam roller to open up your thoracic spine. But most of the time, I'm giving like strength day one to pretty much everyone. Yeah. Wow.

That's awesome. Okay, so we need to do our strength training in a very directed, controlled— which, I mean, honestly, I feel like that's great advice for anybody.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I will say there are a few people that I'm like, you need to go to yoga. And the rule of thumb is if you don't want to go to yoga, you should go. If you love yoga, I'm not saying don't go, but I'm saying you probably don't need to be there. Yeah, it's just like I compare it to eating broccoli. I'm like, I'd rather eat a chocolate chip cookie than broccoli, you know? But the broccoli is what's good for me. That's— it's the same. Like, if you don't like to sit and really like to stretch and move and yeah, then you probably don't need to. If you don't like to stretch and move, then you probably need to. Yeah, I don't know why we're made that way, but that is how it is. Yeah.

And coming from, I mean, I danced all through childhood and then of course got into teaching yoga and I could see the people who, you know, they go to downward dog. I'm like, whoa, that is not an A-shape. That is like a—

And I have yoga also as a part of the, the, I have a yoga for golfers class, so I'm making it, I'm making my male patients go, but I believe in it. So I'm, I'm certainly not saying, you know, Pilates over yoga or anything like that, but I am saying you need to stabilize before you mobilize. And so, you know, that, you know, just to be clear on that, I think it absolutely has a place and is a beautiful art. But yeah, most of the time, if you really love it, then you probably should do something that you don't love. That's why I'm a little bit of a Debbie Downer. And you're like, how do you make it more fun? I'm like, I don't know. You just have to do it. You just have to do it and find good music. That's what I got for you.

Yes. I mean, I feel like it's at least better than paying taxes, right? I mean, come on.

Great.

I almost made you spit out your coffee.

This is my post-FDP. Like, I feel my blood sugar starting.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm like, okay.

Yes.

Okay.

So if someone is— if they haven't seen you yet because you're the hypermobile voodoo doctor and you can see it in them, right? If they haven't seen you yet, and they're like, what, what if I'm hypermobile? Like, where I am, where am I perhaps on this scale? Like, what are some of the, like, top 1 or 2 steps that they can do? Like, should they go right to PT? Should they go to a physician? Like, what's—

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I mean, I always think I'm biased because I do this for a living. So I think just an eval with a physical therapist to understand, okay, how actually hypermobile am I? When we talk about— there's a scale called the Beighton Hypermobility Scale. That we're looking at shoulders, elbows, knees, you know, can you palm the floor, those sort of things. And a lot of clients come in, they're like, I can't do any of those things. But you know, they do hyperextend their elbows, hyperextend their knees. So I would say just in general, working with a good trainer or coach, you know, that can just double check your form, you know, make sure that you're not in a position where you're hyperextending your knees or your elbows. So I think it's just a little bit of just awareness. If any of the things that I've said have resonated with you, like where again, yeah, I'm a fidgeter, I do have some of those things, or Yeah, when I was 12, I had this really cool party trick that everyone thought was great. Now I can't even bend over, but I used to be able to. Those are some of the things that I ask clients. But I don't necessarily think you have to come to PT, but I do think you need to have some sort of support system, which is why I love Raleigh. I love Endurance Edge. The community piece is so important where I'm sure, one, you'll start to notice it in everyone, your friends. Most of the time it's maternal. So the mom has passed it on to the daughter. And it does exist in men. It's just more rare. But it— but, but yeah, so I think just having that little bit of a support system and just having someone's eyes on you, you know, hey, can you watch me do this move? And then, you know, just making sure that that strength, strength and balance is a part of your program and an important part of the program that you have some sort of outlet for doing that. So I would probably at least for a little bit dissuade like like a YouTube video, we're doing it at home alone, you know, and they're— they tell you you're doing a great job, but, you know, they have no idea if you're doing a great job. So just to have someone's eyes on you at some point, any sort of professional that you trust, um, you know, that would probably be my, my advice.

Yeah, I would almost say like get a friend to videotape you doing a movement.

That— absolutely. Yep, 100%.

Yeah, sometimes just seeing it, you're like, oh my God, I had no idea I was even doing that.

Or a mirror. Yeah. You know, like, you have a good mirror at the gym, like, watch yourself hold a plank and see, you know, how— or say, hey, can you do this for me? And then watch what they do and then be like, okay, my body does not look like that. Like, you know, so it can also just be— or go to a class and even just look around and, and, and, you know, because if you go like to a yoga class and, and you look around and you're doing a seated twist and you're looking all the way at the back wall, but no one else is, go and kind of match what everyone else is doing, even if you don't feel it, is really not satisfying. But you can kind of do a body check in that way if you just prefer classes and you don't want— or I mean, training is expensive. So I always try to be very mindful of people's money. You don't have— not everyone has the ability to go work with a personal trainer. So I do think there are just different elements that you could I always find that there's like different strategies.

Like, you know, I've had folks who I'm like, go see a trainer once a month, once every—

Exactly.

Just to check in on your form, do some programming, and then if you're good at executing, go execute.

Yeah. I have some maintenance clients that come to see me every 4 to 6 weeks just because, and I don't know if it's helping, but it's certainly helping them mentally. And we do a check-in and we, you know, I work on a couple stress points and then send them on their way. And that has, that has been more common than I actually thought going into the cash-based PT realm that I have just people that come in and check in. So yeah, yeah, for sure.

Like the voodoo doctor.

You know, sometimes I'm like, I don't know if they don't know why they're paying me to cause them so much pain, but you feel better after. So I don't know if it's because I stopped doing what I was doing and that's why they feel better. But yeah, yeah.

All right, so, um, I hear lots of mirrors and awareness and maybe not pushing yourself quite as hard as maybe you think you should be pushing yourself. And, uh, definitely strength training, a lot of grace, and knowing that maybe you're not broken, right? You just—

yep, you just—

and you're not alone. And you're not alone.

So many. Yeah.

What are, what are some other, like, main takeaways that you want people, certainly, or hypermobile, or who could tell a friend who might be hypermobile what are the main 2 or 3 takeaways that you've got for them?

Yeah, so I would say, you know, don't— let's see, I try really hard to— when a patient's in front of me, and they're telling me that they're tight, I don't want to tell them, no, you're not. So you're allowed to listen to your body. If your body's telling you that it feels tight, that's okay. So bodywork is okay. You know, foam rolling is okay. Without going too far in one direction, there is something called fascia. That also connects your body to the spider web that connects your entire body. And the fascia can be tight. So, cupping, rolling, those sort of things that can play a really nice role, dry needling, you know, to release some trigger points. So, I'm not trying to say, you know, that you don't feel tight. I really try to make sure that I meet patients and clients where they are. So, I'd say the takeaway is, you know, you don't have to you don't have to tell yourself, well, Holly said I'm not tight, so I'm not tight. It's like, well, you can still— you can feel tight, but strengthen, right? So, yeah, I think just understanding how the body works, understanding that there are different components that hold your body together, and without getting too sciency, that there's one that's working really well and then there's one that's not working really well, and that that's okay. That's just how you were made and put together, and that is fine. Awesome. And yeah, so those, those would probably be the things that we didn't touch that I would, that I would say. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah.

Very cool.

Holly, those were great tips. Thank you so much. Yeah.

And tell people where they can reach you.

Oh, sure. Yes. Email is probably the easiest. Holly spelled with a Y at stateofthearthealth.com is my email. Website is stateofthearthealth.com. So you also can contact me there or just look up the clinic. And but there are also many wonderful hypermobile professionals in the area. But yeah, I'm happy to direct in any way, shape, or form.

Love that. Awesome. Holly Bart, thank you so much for joining Inside Your Edge podcast, and I am so grateful you were here. Thank you so much.

Yes.

All right.

Bye, Chris.

Awesome. Okay. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to the Find Your Edge podcast. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. And if you're interested in learning more about our endurance coaching, sports and wellness nutrition, metabolic and sweat testing, triathlon training team, or our triathlon training library, be sure to check us out at theenduranceedge.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media at The Endurance Edge. Thanks again, and we'll catch you next time.