I Was the Villain in Her Story—Until I Chose to Lead
In this conversational interview, Tim Arrigo and guest Chris explore the dynamics of toxic relationships and personal transformation through the Beyond Driven program. They discuss how love can become conflated with dysfunction, the role of chronic lying as a protective shell built from childhood trauma, and the concept of "toxic shame" visualized as a cup that overflows when ownership is demanded. The dialogue delves into the psychological mechanisms of avoidance, fear, and the "house of mirrors" people construct to preserve self‑image, as well as why individuals are drawn to familiar, unhealthy partners via trauma bonds. They outline the program’s three domains—authentic connections, self‑mastery, and compelling purpose—highlighting neuropsychological tools (e.g., polyvagal theory, trigger awareness) that help participants move from self‑examination to mentorship. Practical coaching strategies such as reverse gaslighting and the ladder‑in‑the‑pit metaphor are presented as ways to empower men to exit the "pit" themselves. The conversation also critiques societal gatekeeping of psychology, arguing that broader psychological literacy is a powerful antidote to manipulation and victimhood. Throughout, the tone remains therapeutic, reflective, and occasionally critical of cultural narratives that keep men trapped in bitterness.
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Everyone's version of love is actually different, right? It's our version when we're in the toxic dynamic is love fused with dysfunction, that it's chasing and pursuing and proving that I deserve it and working for it and earning it.
And that, that's one of the most enlightening things about the program is coming to that realization that you just explained. I mean, that is, that's, that's gold.
All right, Chris, welcome to the show, brother. What do you got for me? How are you, Tim? Good to see you.
Good to hear from you. Yeah, I, I wanted to talk about what happens later in the program. And as you go through the program, you really understand that you're not really there just to save your marriage. You're really there to learn about yourself. And after some time, if you're doing the work and you have to do the work, you gain self-awareness about childhood trauma, how how the amygdala works. You gain tools on how to understand your triggers and how to apply things and how to nurture yourself and how to literally surf through urges and tools for just about everything you're gonna run into. And after you've done this for a while, you, it becomes a habit. You, you learn it, it changes your life. And, and then you get to the point, well, you ask yourself what comes next. And the thing for me that I wanted to encourage people and the brothers that are in there now about what comes next is you get to the point where you start to understand your partner as well. And for example, when you're going through it in your teeth, in the teeth of it, and it's toxic and it's dysfunctional and it's you're— you take things personally and you, you, you get violated and you get treated horribly and horrible things are said and all these kinds of things. Once you've gone through the self-awareness process and you understand what happened to you, you build this what you call the empathy bridge, which is where you start to understand them. And so, for example, my soon-to-be ex-wife just Lies about everything. And so I tried to understand after doing this work, why does she do that? Why does she lie? Because lying is, it's just a horrible thing to have to deal with all the time. And the reason she does that, th— this is the, the, the education that comes to your, to your thought process after you do this a while. The reason she does that is she's built this shell around herself. In her life because of her own childhood trauma and her own experiences that she's built this shell that protects her. And lying is part of the protection. Because if she lies, she creates an image, an outside image, a shell, a mask about herself that makes her feel better.
Right. So let me ask you this. So What— why, why would somebody need to do that aside from protecting themselves? Which you're absolutely right about that. That means that— what is, what is the other dynamic at play there?
She's in deep fear. She's re— she's really afraid. She's—
and fear is a part of it, but what else?
To me, what, what I think— she's very hurt. She's very hurt. She's very afraid. And she hasn't done the work herself to understand it.
Yeah, that's all true, but what is the emotional state that forces somebody to do that constantly, continually? Okay, let me—
it's extreme insecurity.
Yeah, that's all true, but if somebody lies about things to protect themselves, they're protecting themselves from what? What does telling the truth create?
It creates that they have to go look at themselves.
So you have to take ownership, right? So if I lie to protect myself from ownership, what is the thing that inhibits ownership more than anything?
Well, I mean, it's the lack of accountability, but I'm trying to get to—
what is a feeling inside of somebody that where they would feel a certain way about themselves that would prevent them from taking on any more ownership for anything?
I think what happens is they get saturated.
So what are they feeling?
I think subconsciously they're feeling fear.
No, but outwardly fear, though the fear is in response to what I'm referring to.
So they're feeling threatened? No. What am I missing? Tim?
Feeling shame.
Ah, shame and guilt.
Yeah. So think about it like this.
Yeah.
Think of it like a cup. And in their life, in their childhood, in their early life, in their adult life, typically in their childhood, what's occurred is there is this shame that fills the cup, fills the inside of themselves, and it's like a stagnant, polluted pool. It never gets irrigated, never gets drained, never gets cleaned, never gets chlorinated, never gets dealt with. And what happens is there becomes a— eventually there, the cup is all the way full, it's full to the brim, and they put a covering over it And so taking ownership or looking at themselves spills the shame cup over. And the shame is not normal shame at this point. It's called toxic shame.
Yeah.
It's a state of shame they live in constantly.
Yeah.
So they have to find a way to protect themselves from the toxic shame. And what they'll do is they'll build and construct a house of mirrors around themselves that reflects everything that comes at them back out into the environment. It's a ricochet effect. So to, to preserve their self-image, because here's the thing, they're not really lying to other people. They're actually simultaneously lying to themselves. They actually believe their own lies as a way to protect themselves from shame. This is how lost and delusional these people actually are.
Yeah. Have you seen in your experience people recover from this?
Usually they're the type of people that if they go to counseling, they will react very, very, very negatively to the counselor if the counselor says or points at them in any way. And they'll find a— they find reasons to discredit people who tell them the truth.
Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly been my experience with it.
So what can happen is if somebody has really, really good rapport with them and is able to slowly and subtly get them there. But here's the thing, they have an incredible aversion to self-examination.
Right.
They will not walk through that door because it's like opening a door to a closet and they look inside and it's really dark and all they see is snarling teeth and red eyes. They don't actually believe they can walk in there without being devoured by the shame. And never being able to come out.
Right.
So they think in terms of absolutes. They think that because the shame is there, they think that it is their identity. So there's no changing my identity. So why would I go there to talk about it? I'd rather— no, no, no, no. Seal it off, chain it up, padlock, vault, cement, 5,000 Leagues Under the Sea.
Exactly. That's, that's been my experience with it as well.
How dare you attempt to pry into this?
How dare you attempt to break the shell?
How dare you? And then what they'll do is they will attack you, call you names, character assassinate you, spread rumors about you, and go out of their way to destroy you for attempting to reveal to them who they actually are when they can't even see that what you're really trying to do is help them.
Yeah, that's the insidious part of it, because the lies that they've created that they believe they then spread those lies to try to, you know, launch—
you want to know why they do that?
Well, it protects them.
It protects them. But you know why else they do that?
It protects their shame that they don't want to explore.
It's all true. Yeah. But why else do you think they do that?
Because they're worried that I'm going to—
why do you think they react so negatively to your attempt to help them when you're just trying to show them that the shame inside of them can be healed and worked through if they just acknowledge it?
Right.
Why do you think that they assume that you're trying to hurt them and then as a result try to hurt you? Why?
Well, they, they're afraid that I'm gonna go and tell other people the truth that I'm trying to tell them.
That's a part of it, but there's a bigger part of it at play.
Well, it shatters their whole world.
Yeah.
But they built this whole world of, of fantasy.
Yeah. It's, you know what it's really about though? It's because that's what they do. When they attempt to— they, when they try to confront people about things that they do, they know that it's not actually confronting them, it's actually manipulation and an attack. And so they perceive someone's help through the lens at which they confront other people. So they assume that you are attacking them because ultimately they know that they're master manipulators and that they, they attack people. So they assume that they see it through the same lens at which they confront people on what they do because they confront people with a malicious intent. Whereas when you confront them, it's a benevolent intent. It's the desire to actually— it's altruistic. You want to help them, right? So sad part is their own negativity creates a prison that they live in and then perceive the entire world out of. So what the reality is, they project, they accuse other people of things that they are actually doing, right?
And the Lord, the Lord brought this to me, this, this truth that you just explained. Brought it to me in two dreams. Wow. He actually woke me up. He said, Chris, you've gotta see this. You've gotta know this. And, you know, the first time he did it, I wrote it off as catastrophizing and mental filtering. But then a couple of weeks later, I got the same exact message at 3 o'clock in the morning. And I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is what's happening.
You know what makes us attracted to people like that?
You mean people that are having the problem that my wife's having?
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I, they, it's, it's a trauma bond. If we have the same— Yeah.
What attracts us to them? Why, why are we attracted to that?
Uh, I think we see some of ourselves in them. I think we some see some of our own trauma and experiences in them.
Yeah. You know, couple reasons. You nailed it. Number one is the things that we see in them that we wanna help and heal are the very things that in us need to be healed.
Yeah.
The difference is that they are avoidant and we are primarily typically more anxious. And part of the dynamic is we're right at home, like we're right at home, right? That dynamic for us in involving ourselves in a toxic dynamic is something that we're very used to. We've already survived it. Right. And so the dynamic, it, it mirrors and mimics something we've already experienced. Because our brain is a survival organ. It seeks to recreate the same dynamics you've already survived. So recognition of what is familiar is often confused with, like, I'm attracted to the person. No, you're not attracted. You recognize their behavior. It's recognition, not attraction.
You're attracted to familiarity of it.
It's the familiarity that you feel right at home until you become conscious and aware that something else is possible. But it feels like love because everyone's version of love is actually different, right? It's our version when we're in the toxic dynamic is love confused with dysfunction, that it's chasing and pursuing and proving that I deserve it and working for it and earning it.
And that, that's one of the most enlightening things about the program is coming to that realization that you just explained. I mean, that, that's, that's gold.
Yeah. I was, I was laughing with a buddy of mine the other day. We were talking about, uh, that it's amazing how people will invest time and energy into so many meaningless things. But yet ironically don't see the value of learning anything about psychology, neuroscience, human behavior. Like they don't put any time and energy into that. And that would literally allow— if they worked in a coaching program and did some real work, like not some just lift heavy stuff and act like an alpha, I'm talking about like some real in-depth coaching, they would realize that developing and understanding and education around that information completely liberates you from the subjective reality that you live in and allows you to put a name and an understanding to things that you're experiencing, which allows you to step out of your own reality and far enough to be able to make a change and a difference. And then you realize, like, okay, so why, why do people gatekeep psychology? Why do they gatekeep psychological information? It's like, well, because most— because that's how the world works. So the powers that be use psychology to control people. The media uses psychology to control people, right? People of power use psychology to control people. Politicians use psychology to control people. So the second that people learn about psychology, they become dangerous because they become free thinkers. Now I can think for myself. Now I'm not in my own subjective world. So we wonder why people don't value psychology. Well, because it's been downplayed, it's been joked about, it's been minimized, it's been, it's been degraded to be something that is irrelevant in someone's life unless you, right, have a problem. And the problem is, is that people constantly have problems and will experience problems for the rest of their life until they develop an education and understanding of these things on a deep level, which takes time to develop. But I thoroughly believe this, and I talked to colleagues of mine in the clinical setting about this for years, that I think it is the greatest asset that you can ever develop in your life is an understanding of psychology, how it works, and then your own interworkings, your own inter-operating system, which is all the work that we do in Beyond Driven that you had mentioned. It's the greatest asset you could ever have.
I, I think it's, I think the, what, what that, what you do though with Beyond Driven, Tim, is more than psychology. It's, it is, it, it's neuropsychology. It is, it's an understanding of your physiology and your brain. It's an understanding of— a deeper understanding of what triggers me. And it's not just like the whole thing that we, we talk about with the Elvis and how the polyvagal theory— I mean, you talk with the Elvis, it calms yourself as well as calming your partner. I mean, that's not something you think about in normal life, right?
Funny, the guy said like, oh, it works. And it's like, well, yeah, of course it works. What do you think, we just threw stuff at a dartboard in the middle of the night? These things work because They're proven to work. And, and I think that's also the tragic part is you have a lot of people that want to get involved in the space that, to be honest with you, you know, you mentioned next steps, you know, you have the, you have the 3 domains, right? You have your authentic connections, you have self-mastery, you have your compelling purpose, you know, and I think that ultimately that, that last step is when we go and teach and train and talk to other people about our own experience. I think that's the other side of it is, is when you go and teach and you lead and you guide and you become the conduit for the work that occurred in your own life, you know, that is the, ultimately that's the whole way that we invert our own pain into purpose. And the best way to retain information is to teach it.
Yeah, that's, I call that the mentoring phase.
Yeah.
When you get to that point where you're passing it on. You're, you're, you're passing it on to the, to the next group of brothers that come in. And that is a very fulfilling thing in life. It is. When, when you can, when you've gained that, that knowledge and experience, and then you can pass it on to somebody else and help somebody else. So I don't know if you saw the post today, Tim, but it, it, it, I, I, I just wanted to mention it. We were, you know, you had how you were talking about reverse gaslighting.
Yeah.
So when somebody is in the pit, what we don't want to do is go down. We don't want to say, oh, you're right. Sorry, you're in the pit. You know, we're going to pull you out of the pit. In the post, what I said was, no, we're going to get into the pit with you. But when we get into the pit with you, we're going to bring wood and some nails and some tools, and we're going to build a ladder together so that you learn how to get out of the pit yourself.
And we're not going to lie to you about the fact that, like, that's the thing, you know, when guys fall short, we find a need to do what's comfortable, which is to tell, to, to like coddle. Like, I had a guy earlier on social media, he's like, oh, you're one of those guys who doesn't call out women. And he just, yeah, I'm sure if a guy cheats, if a wife cheats on her husband, right, it's his fault. I'm sure if she lies, it's his fault. I said, first of all, when did I say any of that? Number one. Number two, Like, I'm not a victim. So blaming, sitting here blaming women solves nothing. Number 2, I'm not a chick, so I don't talk about women. You know, I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm out here helping men. This is a men's coaching program where we help men become empowered. So why would I ever encourage a man to become a victim and stay in a victim state? It's like blaming politics and blaming society, and it's the feminist movement, and it's this and that. It's like, great, bro. What's that doing for you other than making you bitter? This is about growth. This is about ownership. This isn't about bitterness. And yeah, all that stuff's going on, but guess what? You have two choices. Choose to focus on it and allow it to define you and make you bitter, and then you have your life reflect that or become empowered. Choose to grow and become impervious to all that and create something different.
Right. You, like you said earlier, you, you pull yourself out of the subjective part and you make yourself objective. Yeah. You, you pull yourself above it.
Yeah.
And, and it doesn't bother you. You don't, you don't react and don't take everything personally. Like, he was— that guy who was saying that was still taking that really personally.
Yeah, that was— there was a bitterness in him that, yeah, obviously he got hurt and he didn't get over it. He didn't overcome it, which I get. But hey, man, you know, that, that's, that's part of the narrative in our culture right now that's ruining men even more. It's like, yeah, don't get married, it's the feminist movement, women these days, it's all the same BS that that keeps men trapped. And so that's part of the reverse gaslight, is a guy tells himself lies and then someone validates those lies and prevents him from becoming sane. Thank God you don't do that.
It prevents him from come— becoming who he should be.
Yeah. And thank God that you don't do that. Thank God that you don't do that for guys in the program. You know, I've seen you and the amazing leadership and feedback you provide, but that all came from your own growth.
And yeah, no question about it.
You know, like, you're able to be that conduit and that leader for the guys inside the academy because is you get it, man. Like, and, and this isn't like, hey, everything worked out for me and so I get it and I'm able to talk this way. It's like, no, I had to go through a lot of pain and guess what? My marriage didn't work out and I understand it more clear than I ever have in my entire life.
And I understand other people clearly as well.
That's it. That's the next phase because you start really, and, and I say the word indoctrinate in a good way, you start to retain, recall, repeat the information. You just become you start to see patterns, cycles, programming, conditioning, patterning. You just recognize it and you can see it in yourself. You can see it in others and you just, you stay in that growth state. And I just think personally, like, there's no better place to be than, than in that state, man. So Chris, I appreciate this, man. Thanks for coming on today.
Oh, it was a pleasure. It's always a pleasure to talk to Tim on these kinds of things because it's, it's part of the growth. Growth to the grave, my friend.
Amen, bro.
Amen.
Much love, Chris. Talk soon, brother.
Much love.
