The Pain That Made You a Man

Why do you feel like the other stuff didn't work and then what you did with us was so like groundbreaking for you?

Oh, uh, when I, when I joined Beyond Driven, um, this is my fourth program and I was still cynical.

So it was your fourth program?

Fourth program. It was all the same time, by the way. It's not like I completed 1, 2, 3, 4, right? It's like all— I was all invested, all at the same time.

You work with some other pretty big names in the space in terms of direct competes that we have with kind kind of our business. Yeah. You worked with— oh yeah, you did some other stuff.

Absolutely. And I kept searching for others too.

And thanks for doing this.

Thanks, Tim.

Yeah. Mainly, I just want to talk to you about— I feel like your journey has been so amazing to watch just in terms of your transformation, what brought you here. I feel like you've been so involved in the community. But I want to mainly ask you, how did you find Beyond Driven? And not— I know you found us right through social media or right, you saw something online. What brought you to Beyond Driven first and what did you try before? And you know, what made you— what made you want to invest in yourself and get started?

Great question, Tim.

I—

when I got separated, when my marriage was falling apart, I could not look at myself and tell myself that it was all because of me. It was my marriage. And so when I saw your videos on social media, it was not for me because you're not talking about my marriage. You're talking about me. I knew how to go find some marriage programs, and I found a marriage workshop that I chose to do. I found a relationship coach because that's what I needed to do, was fix my relationship and not me. And so I signed up for two programs and I spent a lot of time, a lot of money trying to figure out how to work my relationship and have a coach guide me on how to win my wife back.

What did you try prior?

Prior to that was a marriage, a 3-day marriage workshop.

Like a retreat?

It was just an online program that just walked me through. It was a group of us, walked us through, you know, the Four Horsemen and all the different principles around marriage.

And, you know, some Gottman stuff.

Yeah, pretty much, you know, typical counseling stuff, but in a marriage setting. Um, just people who are struggling in marriage, a lot of limerence, you know. That was mostly the focus of limerence.

Was your wife involved in that?

No, it was just a solo workshop.

Okay.

Yeah, there was a couple's workshop, but I did a solo workshop that was a newer program for people who want to learn more about their spouses or partners stepping outside the marriage, you know, having, uh, being in limerence. Uh, it was good information to start with, but it didn't resonate with me. Um, I thought, okay, I need a coach because the workshop was more about insights, but I need somebody to help me because I did not know how to do it. And I spent a lot of money on this coach, this, you know, a husband-wife who said that they could help me win my wife back. And Tim, it backfired because when I did that, my wife, she went no contact on me and it was hard. And in fact, I told this coach, I stopped after that because I was like, Listen, I don't need you anymore because I don't have a relationship anymore. And, um, and he's like, you're a lifetime member. I was like, I might come back to you if I have my relationship, but whatever you tell me right now does not apply anymore because I don't have a wife to talk to. Um, he's like, hey, focus on yourself. It's like, but what does that mean? And I was so turned off to him. Um, I was frustrated and I joined, uh Then I started thinking about what do I do? I don't have a wife and I needed to learn something about something. I was getting in my head and I was like, all right, maybe I need to focus on myself. Maybe that's the, that's the part I'm missing. I'm not— I'm avoiding taking ownership. And I found another men's program that, that I joined. Um, it was a good start. It helped me get an idea of, you know, that I need to talk about myself, need to think about myself. Look into myself. But even then, I felt like something was missing. So that was the third program. So I was in like these programs at the same time, third program. I'm just like investing and I'm like, okay, something missing. I felt empty, felt unfulfilled, still lost. And that's what I question myself. If I'm still feeling lost after spending all this money, and investing in these programs, there's still something missing. And what is it? And I remember, and I shared this with you, I spoke to somebody from Beyond Driven one time and I rejected Beyond Driven 'cause he pushed me really hard and I didn't like it. 'Cause listen again, it was not about me. I need to focus my relationship. And then I reached out again. So after I did this men's program, I said, I need to, circle back on Beyond Driven. Maybe there's something there. Let me just find out. What the heck? I might as well. And when I spoke to Ryan, oh, I was so cynical. I mean, I was already $20,000 deep into this, my journey already, and I had no luck. What else could go wrong?

How'd your wife respond to when you did the marital coaching or the other programs? Like, what did she—

She did not know. Yep. Well, I told her I signed up for a program. She said to get out of the house because she did not She didn't want anything to do with me because she knew I was just trying to manipulate her.

So you said, hey, I signed up for this program and—

Yep. Yeah. Just before we were separating.

You told me that story.

Yeah, right before. What happened when she initiated the separation? I said, all right, I'll start figuring out where to move. Give me some time. I use that time to find programs to save my marriage. I told myself all I need to show her or tell her is I have a program to work for, work with. And the day after Valentine's Day, she said, hey, when are you leaving? You're supposed to be leaving today. I was like, look at me, honey. I signed up for a workshop, signed up for a coach. That's what I need. I mean, relationship is a problem. So here we go. She's like, ah, no way. Get out. Don't want anything to do with this. You're still not figuring this thing out.

What were some of the reasons that you guys ended up separating in the first place? Oh, there wasn't any infidelity, right? There wasn't any overt abuse. Right. So what if you looking back now, like, how would you describe that? What's the difference in how you would describe the problem then versus how you look at the problem now? Like, give me those two. So how would you look at it then? What was your perception of it?

And my perception of that was, you know, it was all her, nothing to do with me. I emotionally abused her and the kids. You know, I was jealous, I had envy, not priority. It was always in the external. They were the problem and they were not making this pain I was feeling, insecurity I was having, go away. And that kind of created more resentment and anger that they were not fixing my problem. But it was them, I was not the problem 'cause I was providing. I was showing up, you know, and vacations and purchases, whatever.

Why do you think so many guys get trapped in that? In that cycle of thinking that it's their wife?

That's the one person that they feel like they could get everything from, you know, their source of love, security. I think some of it's conditioning, seeing their parents, you know, those who have parents who have stayed together, like my parents stayed together, felt like that's how my parents performed and that's what I get, I need. And I struggled, I struggled having that from my first wife. I always sought validation from my wife because I was culturally— I was growing up saying you provide, you get. And so I provided, but I was not getting. But even though I was getting, but I was not getting what I thought I deserved. I deserved more or I deserved different. And it was tough.

So what would you— how would you describe the problem now, looking back?

Problem, uh, now looking back was I was just very insecure, and I did not want to accept that, that I was deserving of receiving love and I was worthy. And I needed my wife to tell me that I was worthy, and when she did, I did not believe her. Um, and this whole time I was just you know, seeking God's love, but I was angry at him.

I—

so, and today, so the problem— what I learned now is I am okay, and I, I'm good enough. And all that problems I was having in my marriage was just coming from a place of feeling lost and not seeking out help and support Knowing where to go, where to start. The problems need to be fixed by my wife because nobody else could take care of it. She's the closest person to me. My biggest challenge was I was having a hard time being vulnerable with anybody. I could not open myself up, open myself up to anybody because I was scared that I would not get the help or support I needed.

Why do you feel like the other stuff didn't work and then what you did with us was so groundbreaking for you?

Oh, when I, when I joined Beyond Driven, this is my fourth program and I was still cynical.

So it was your fourth program?

Fourth program. It was all the same time, by the way. It's not like I completed 1, 2, 3, 4, right? It's like all— I was all invested, all in the same time.

And you worked with some other pretty big names in the space in terms of direct competes that we have with kind of our business.

Yeah.

You worked with Oh yeah, you did some other stuff.

Absolutely. And I kept searching for others too. Even when I was with Beyond Driven, or the first week, I was like, all right, this is— I was, I was repeating the cycle, keep investing, trying to find out that magic pill.

Yeah.

And I remember it was my third call in Beyond Driven. Like I said, I did not know what to expect in Beyond Driven. Ryan Rhodes really, um, helped me, you know, convert. Um, the big component was the faith, being a new Christian, learning I needed to find comfort in being around men who could help me on that journey of faith and getting closer to God. That was a big draw, and Ryan was a big proponent of that. But when I came to Beyond Dreaming, it was my third call is when it completely changed my life, where it spoke to me. The brothers, the calls, the coaching calls just rocked my world, and it completely stripped me of everything that I ever believed about myself. I had to look at myself in the mirror like never before. And then that was a catalyst for my change where I dropped my adopted name and took on my legal identity, person that I've been hiding away from 20 years at that time. That's what I thought. And again, this weekend we talked about we had more breakthroughs, but I think it was mostly the the, the brotherhood, the community, the coaches, the love, the content, the insights on how to think on how you feel. That was such a game changer. Like, I still cannot wrap my head around how to think about how you, how you think feeling versus just feeling and acting. That's what we do, we react. I always reacted with my feelings. And I believe that's how I got what I got. You know, you feel, you act. That's how you be vulnerable. You feel, you show, you react. But this program completely flipped the script on me.

What was the difference? Like, what would you say is the main difference from any of the other stuff that you tried? Like, what was the real— like, if you say the standouts?

Yeah, it's— you guys, challenge to go deep. You peel every layer, and even when guys resist, you push in the most loving way, the most healthiest way, with the tools, with actual tools that are applicable in the program and when you leave the program if you choose to do so. They're all, you know, mainstream, easy to absorb, easy to understand, real life stuff that Anybody. You don't have to be of certain intellectual level or income level or whatever to understand the program, and more importantly, the concept of study yourself. You guys challenge us to study ourselves, to get to know ourselves. What a beautiful gift that is, because I've never had to do that. No one, no one ever challenged me. None of these other programs challenged me to study myself. They said to learn the content That's about it. It's just, you know, they call mental masturbation. And that was my issue. I always, I never finished what I started. And, you know, In Beyond German was never a long-term plan. I never thought I'll sign up for another year after I completed my initial 90 days.

What made you sign up again?

What made me sign up again was One, accepting that I have work to do, accepting that I have a place that I belong in, accepting that I'm worthy. Because this, these, these group of men helped me realize I'm worthy of being here. I'm worthy of receiving this knowledge and insights and wisdom and love to become a healthier version of myself and to become the man that they have helped me realize that I want to become. The best thing about Beyond Driven is the focus on the man you're becoming. We get so hung up on the man we were. I've talked to so many brothers, we always talk about the past, and I tell the guys, we don't have a relationship anymore with the past. It's the man we're becoming. And that gift, that blessing to know that there's love and a path forward for us from God, Absolutely the reason why I want to sign up for another year and be part of the brotherhood, be part of the coaching system, absorb the knowledge, be part of the live events. There's so much of the program, you know, coaching calls, live events, brotherhood retreats, you know, one-on-one interaction with brothers, the content. I mean, the value in this program is, is beyond what people can even imagine. People can look at a dollar figure, but I don't think, you know, the value.

Yeah, I think a lot of guys really—

they—

it's like you can't get an idea of what this is until you're on the interior of it and you're— once you're on the inside of it. I mean, how many guys we see come in and they're like, first, first day, second day, massive breakthrough, first week, massive breakthrough. And then they realize, okay, this is not what I thought it was. And you now, you Interesting thing about you is you became such a leader in the community just in terms of your support. And I think my question for you there is, where did that come from? How— where did that come to be? You obviously were having a relationship with yourself where you started to realize that you were obviously getting involved to the degree that you were talking to brothers, comments. Messaging, group threads, feedback in group calls. What— where did that come from? Like, what— did you have that going on before? Where did that come from? And what have you learned from that?

So did I have that before this? I know I had it somewhere. It never came out till the brothers in this community brought it out in me. Somebody once told me in this program, we're all a links We're all the links to the chain. And Justin Walter, I give him credit. And it was my blessing and obligation to give back to this community what they've given to me. I cannot say enough about the brothers who were breathing life into me when I first joined in. And that's not the reason why I do it for others, but because of what they have brought out in me. They've helped me see myself. They've helped me, they see me, but they've also helped me learn how to see myself. And that's where I found that I have this part of me that wants to continue to champion not just myself, but also others, because we all have this blessing now to become a healthier version of ourselves because we deserve it. We are worthy of becoming that man that we so, we have been chasing this whole time.

Yeah. What would you say to a guy who says, you know, how am I going to be able to fix my marriage on my own? Like, I don't understand that. How does that work? You know how— OK, she's not getting help. I'm going to get in this program. Why should I have to do this? And I guess all the doubt, the skepticism, cynicism, pessimism. What would you say to a guy like that?

You know, stay pessimistic when you come in, because that's where your breakthrough is going to come. Stay pessimistic, but be open-minded with what you're going to allow yourself to learn. Understanding that, yes, we all wanted to save our relationship with our wives, control our wives to go do work on themselves. But the moment you interact with other brothers and get into the content curriculum, you quickly realize that there's a part of you that you need to unlock. This is all about unlocking your own potential and not depending on the others, whether your family, your marriage, your friends to do that for you. This brotherhood will unlock your potential because everybody in this group is unlocking each other's potential as they go along. And so our wives are not part of this program, but they will be the recipient of the fruit from this program. Absolutely.

Yeah, and show up to the marriage seminars or do couples calls.

Oh yeah, right.

Live events. We're not—

talked about those resources, right? Because, uh, you know, we talk a lot about the brothers, but even the marriage seminar and, and the couples calls, the value that the wives— I remember seeing my first marriage seminar call. It's amazing how the wives just are there to hear not just from you but from other wives because they're all struggling the same way. And they all get to see growth in their husbands and their partners because growth is inevitable. It's just a matter of time. So let's, let's go there. You're not walking this program without growth right now. Yes. With that, the caveat there is if you don't show up on any of the calls. Yeah, but if you do the work, even a little bit of the work, you're going to see some growth. So can you imagine if you do all 90 days and beyond that? Your growth is inevitable. You will not recognize yourself, forget others. I mean, that's a part of this program that people have to reintroduce themselves to you is what you always told us. And it's so true. You will, you will. I mean, every how you walk, how you talk, how you look, right? It changes. The external environment will not know who they're dealing with anymore.

What would you say? I guess, remember you told me it, we went out to dinner the other night and you told me when we were at the table with the rest of the guys, you said this program is really hard. You said it's really difficult. And I would agree. It's not easy. What do you think? Tell me about that.

You know, life is hard. We take— we, you know, we struggle to take on challenges, you know, because we don't know with the uncertainty of what we get on the other end. But the— if you reframe it, from the perspective of it's hard because it's new. It's something we've never done. We never talked to people who have done it. Part of the heart is it hurts when you go through this process, but that's where the growth comes. It's going through the pain, putting pain to purpose, right? The wound is a path in this program or any program for the matter, but other programs don't don't carry you all the way through. They give you the tools and you go do yourself. This is what differentiates Beyond Driven is everybody's walking that same path along with you. Even if they're 2 steps ahead or 2 steps behind, they're on the same path. But the wound is a path and the wound is a path for everybody, right? And the best part about the wound is a path And all the wounded on the path is their hurt. Hurt people hurt people is what we hear. I remember I was saying this at dinner, hurt people hurt people. We hear heal people heal people. But this group reminded me or opened up my eyes to hurt people can heal people too. And that's what happens in this community. Hurt people can heal people too. And that's where the growth comes in here. And then you take that growth and you go heal people on the outside. So.

Yeah, that's powerful. What would you say top 3 favorite tools are?

Ah, Embracement. So that's one I embraced, funny enough, much later. Embracement is a core tool that just in the name, you embrace yourself. C3 is a really good quick tool that people can quickly understand, you know, their thoughts. But the Box Technique is the game changer. When you talk about breaking down your beliefs, which is how a lot of us come into the program, is just believing things that are lies about, you know, what we have conditioned with. Box Technique is a hands-down game changer. It's where you start and the breakthrough happens there. And all the other tools help along the way, but the Box Technique is why I save it for the last. Anybody who gets in the program, ask for the Box Technique because that's where it starts.

So you did writing assignments, you did couples calls, you did the marital workshops, you've done live events, you've done the cohorts, you've been involved in the Brotherhood, you've established a chapter in relationships with other guys who have come through the program from your hometown, from the area surrounding you. You have gone through the courses, you just jumped into the Inner Operating System course. I think you're on Tool 1, right? Pattern Recognition. What's been the biggest— like, what was a moment for you where you look back, an experience or an interaction for you that stands out the most? Maybe something simple, maybe something deep. Like, what was the situation for you where you look back and you say you really reference that time as maybe you really felt something in that moment or you experienced something for the first time. When was that?

Yeah, early on in the program when I started, you know, I was doing the tools, I was doing the exercises, I was going through the motions and I was learning. I was taking on the knowledge. But the moment that changed for me was my time with James, who was my coach in our one-on-ones. He challenged me on believing the work that I'm doing. I was going through, you know, the first couple of weeks not believing what I was doing. Again, part of my belief system where I struggle with. That changed, that unlocked everything after that for me where I was able to open up my mind to all the, just the program itself in its entirety. And while some of the tools and the exercises can be intimidating, but that's where we're learning now. Every brother learns, that's where the growth is happening. And just to be clear that Beyond Driven, They don't just have coaching call that's random. It's intentional. Everything is intentional. Everything is thought through. There's purpose and intentionality for every day of the night that we sit together in our fellowship, in our discipleship. It's intentional. It's God working through all the coaches that are speaking, right? Those, those moments are ones that changed me as well, but I had to believe. What was happening for me with everything that was happening with you and Jen and the brothers who share. And then again, like you said, you know, brothers from our state, you know, our side group, like we breathed life into each other all the time. We bring it back to the community. How can I not grow when I have that kind of support and love? I mean, that's what this brotherhood is about. It's the fellowship. It is the shared experiences. It is the journey on becoming a better version of ourselves and the belief that we will get there. We will get there. It's inevitable. And we're going to take everybody with us.

If you could go back in time and say something to the version of you before you joined, what would you say?

Take chance on yourself. Take a chance on yourself. Believe in yourself. Don't be afraid. 'cause the fear has been holding me back for my entire life. Just accept who you are. Accept who you are as you are and know that you are loved and accepted by others as well. And go all in. Go all into this program. Go all in because that's where the change is happening.

What's next steps for you? Like, where do you want to go from here? What do you see for yourself beyond this point?

For me, continue to be part of the community. You know, I cannot see myself not be part of Beyond Driven in whatever shape or form. I don't always have to be the loudest voice, but I always have— can be a brother in other brother's journey, but also take it to my kids and influence them. You know, I shared with them your documentary, The Threshing Floor, and, you know, and the content is applicable to my family. You know, take it to my wife, you know, as I try to repair my relationship with her, influence her along with me in this journey. She understands the program. She has seen the content. She believes in it. The sky's the limit on all the people you can take the knowledge and influence with, because this is the blessing that we have been given, and it's a blessing I want to go share with others. But again, it's when they're ready. That's when they're ready. But I know I'm ready to share it with them, because that's what has been bestowed upon me now, because this has been a blessing.

How would you describe the difference in where your marriage was then to where it is now? Because I think a lot of guys, they put a timeline on it and an expectation on it. But you've been in the fight battling and working towards a full reconciliation.

Yeah. I mean, just to be clear, you just— if you sign up for the program, this is not a fix it, your marriage, you know, workshop or program. For me, I'm still in the fight, like you said. You know, my wife, we went from no contact and we reconnected and we've been You know, re-engaging, you know, in our relationship and we're committed to each other. But there are days when, you know, she pulls back and it's hard for her because she has to work through her stuff. There's hurt and healing. There's no timeline on the healing. So even not for our wife, but for ourselves. That's why I extended the program for another year because my healing does not get completed in 90 days. I have a lot to unpack. It took me so long to get here. It's going to take me as long to get out of here. But my relationship with my wife has been healthier because how I'm showing up for our relationship through all the learnings I've had here and be more open in our conversations. I have my moments, you know, I have, like you share with us, we're fallible. So I have my moments where I slip up, but I don't beat myself up like I used to. And that helps her see that I'm still ready to fight for myself and for our relationship. And have the confidence that we will make it through. And giving myself and her the time to work on a full restoration, which again, you know, God is part of the journey with us. We bring God into our lives. And, you know, give it some time, give it some space, do work on yourself, and she will feel the change. And that's where the reconciliation will happen. That's where the restoration will happen. You don't show the change to your wives. They'll feel the change because that's all they trust. And so you show up for yourself and that's what they want to see.

Last question I have for you is describe the emotional context of what you used to live in every day versus the way that you feel now every day.

I, I woke up every day feeling anxious. Ruminating about my marriage, lost, confused, stuck, and no path forward. Even though I had all the resources, I just was— I didn't believe in myself. I was so fixated on the scarcity in my life than the abundance. And then fast forward now, I have this calmness, this relief. And one, accepting who I am, and then, you know, being open to receiving blessings in this program and, you know, in my family life as well. It's allowed me to give back and be more patient with myself and with others, find joy and peace that I felt like I robbed myself of it. Nobody else did it. But me, and slowly chip away at any of the fear, the doubt, again, the scarcity, and just be blessed on the abundance that I have in my life right now as we speak, and keep, you know, living my day-to-day with the work I've done, the growth I have experienced in this program, and more to come. The growth is not done. That's the beauty of this program, right? And for myself as well, I have more to go do. Hope, peace, I think that's a big one, peace, and excitement. Going from feeling anxious about where I'm gonna be to being excited on where I am and where I get to be. That's been the biggest shift for me.

How'd you feel today when you woke up?

Oh, so excited. I was excited to just, Think through this weekend that we all spent together as a cohort with, you know, a dozen brothers, spending time in fellowship, learning, spending time in the water. I felt rejuvenated to go back, to go back home and share with my kids, but also share with the rest of the brothers on the continued blessing that we have to be in each other's company. Feel renewed. This, this season is a season of baptism for me. I feel renewed. And every day on our calls, I feel good. But this weekend, I'm a completely different person, and I cannot wait to go share that with the people in my lives back home.

What do you feel like was the catalyst for— when you say a completely different person after this weekend, what was the breakthrough for you this weekend?

God being present here in our conversations, that's one. Allowing me to show up as myself and being open to receiving the love and the wisdom from you and the other brothers. But hearing from others as well and hearing their story and knowing that one, I'm not alone, my issues and my burden are shared by others and we have commonality. But also again, like the discipleship and just the camaraderie. That the belonging, I have a hard time explaining the belonging that I have, you know, being a minority, being accepted here. I've never felt as belonged as I have anywhere else. I joined a fraternity in college and friends, but my soul feels at rest, at peace here. And that's what I got this weekend was a chance to just find myself again. Even though I have every step of the way in this program, Tim, I have found parts of myself, right? But this weekend you helped me unlock everything about myself that I thought was a lie but was my truth all along. I gaslit myself and told myself that I was not living my truth. And you helped me realize that your truth was just fine as it is, regardless of how others saw it as. Your truth was your truth. That was the most relieving experience I had, to walk away feeling that my truth was really my truth and not the lie that I told myself. I can live with that. I can be a free man and live my life in joy and peace and not have to go chase it because that was in my truth.

You should be proud of yourself, bro. You've come very far. And you help a lot of guys every day. You should be very proud of yourself and a living example, just like so many of the other brothers, man, of the testament to the hard work and dedication and discipline that you put in to get to where you are, man. I love you. I'm proud of you.

Thank you, Tim. I'll say the one last thing is you again, the one thing from this weekend too, you have, you have helped me realize that I have a testimony I have a story and I can just own it. So thank you for helping me find my story and own it and remind me that my testimony is okay. And God's my witness and that's all I, who I serve. And I did not know I was deserving of that. So thank you again for telling me I have a testimonio.

Powerful, bro.

I'm like, this journey has been— just sitting here and talking through this, this has been—

I wish that— that's the struggle, is you see guys and then you're like, if you only knew, man. If you only knew, like, what's actually going on here. If you only knew, like, what is actually possible for you if you would just let go. If you actually just were teachable, coachable, humble and willing enough. If you only knew what God had for you. And that's the same thing you would probably tell yourself back then, like, bro, you know, you have no idea what to look— you have to look forward to. You have so much to look forward to. If you only knew what it's going to look like for you, you would— you would not be feeling the way you are. But you got to get out of your own way, you know, and I think so, so many guys that get stuck and Can't solve the problem in the same mindset that created it, you know? And I think guys get stuck in that mindset. And I think that shift is paramount. It has to happen first, not in what you think, but in how you think. And I love that we covered that this weekend. So thanks for doing this, man.

Thanks, brother.

I love you.

I appreciate you. I love you. Thank you for coming in my life and helping me get to this point.

It's an honor, man. It's an honor and a privilege.

I really mean it.

Yeah, thanks for being a part of the community and helping so many guys.

Yeah, my calling now.

Let's go.