1. International Big Picture Learning Credential (part of the Global Pathways Innovations Mini-Series)

In this episode, I had the huge pleasure of chatting with Monty, Eliza, and Lydia, 3 amazing graduates of the International Big Picture Learning credential in Australia. There are few, if any, other new pathways and credentials that have been as successful in obtaining university recognition for such radical alternatives to the standardized exam factory system and credential capital monopolies. The phenomenon that is Viv White, the founder of Big Picture Learning Australia, has joined me previously on the podcast, so you can find out more about what they're up to across Australia in that episode, which is linked in the show notes along with more more information about the Big Picture Learning Credential. So thank you very much for taking the time to have this conversation, meeting all the way around the world between France and Australia. So super excited to meet you all and really just to help listeners understand a bit more about the Big Picture Learning Credential that you all have been a part of. So could one of you start off just really describing this thing called the International Big Picture Learning credential to someone who's perhaps never heard of it before?

So I'm Monty and I'm a BPL graduate from James Fallon High School in Albury. And so I would explain it as it is a gateway, like a gateway into the world, but you have this unique pathway that you graduate with. So it's not just like your standard, in Australia here we have HSC, which is High School Certificate, Victoria, VC, it just kind of varies from different states. But you don't sit like general tests. It's kind of how you perform as a person. There's no really mark to it. Like it's not like a, oh, you know, you received like a B+ or something like that. It's just a very generalized way that in future employers or even university pathways can look into, you know, what your passion is, what are your interests. So it's more like you get to know that person on a more personal level rather than just like a name and a number on a system.

Fantastic. Yeah, that's great. Thanks, Monty. And could perhaps Lydia or Eliza, could you give a bit more detail on what's that experience like? How does it have that personal pathway kind of feel to it?

Hi, I'm Eliza and I graduated this year, which is super exciting. So what the IB PLC looked like for me was I had started the traditional HSC system. I'd started in there in Australia and realized in my second year, so my Year 12, that it probably wasn't going to be viable for me in terms of my mental health. And I was really grateful to get the opportunity to switch into the Big Picture program. And so what the program looked like in terms of my experience was I'm interested in politics and public policy. So I needed to— you need to write a senior thesis in your final year if you're interested in going on to university. And so that was a 10,000-word research essay of a university level, which had all sorts of ups and downs and real-life experience that I gained from that. And that took about 12 months. It was internships. So I interned at my local electorate office and at Paul Ramsay Foundation, which is the second largest charity in Australia. Then your— it was also an autobiography. So that self-reflection on who you are as a learner, which I think is really unique to Big Picture because you're not often asked to reflect on your, you know, entire life from 0 to 18. And it was a challenge. And you're assessed through 6 different kind of areas, criteria, and that's communication, personal qualities, empirical reasoning. So kind of science, what traditional learning could equate to science. You've got like mathematical reasoning, knowing how to learn, and social reasoning. So you are getting tested on all of those constantly. And so it's not just, you know, how you can perform on a standardized exam. It's, you know, are you showing empathy as a learner? Do you work hard? And so that's how I would explain the program.

Yeah, beautiful. Thank you so much. Yeah, Lydia, perhaps you could talk about your experience.

Yeah, so I'm Lydia. I graduated from the International Big Picture Learning Academy in 2023. I started Big Picture when I was in year 9. Basically, I moved from Sydney to Canberra and started Canberra education system. It works a little bit differently there, even though it's a smaller state in Australia. And I was falling behind on everything. I just couldn't keep up even no matter how hard I tried. Said, like, I had the drive to learn, but I just— the mainstream education system just did not work for me. My parents went to an information night about Big Picture. Fun fact, the school I went to was the only school in the ACT at the time that was running Big Picture. Now we've got 3 schools, which includes the college I ended up going to. And my mum basically came home crying and said, this is the program for you. I am your local horse girl through and through. I do everything horse related. If you can relate it to horses, I will understand it. If you can't, then there's a likely chance I won't understand what's being said. So I basically did throughout my time in Big Picture, from when I did it from Year 9 and graduating in Year 12, I did about— I think it was over 10 or something different projects. And my last one in Year 12 was a senior thesis project. I wrote a 5,000-word literature review along with the university mentor, who is actually now my university lecturer, and we did it on how horses learn. And so Big Picture for me was really discovering what I enjoyed. I always knew I loved horses, but finding my area of interest I never thought I would go to university. I thought I was too dumb. I thought it just wasn't the pathway for me. I thought you had to be really academically smart to go to university, but through Big Picture, it allowed me— I was graduating with a portfolio that showed that I'm more than just the grades that I could get on a test. I'm more than just that F as a fail. I'm actually a very capable learner along with my whole cohort. We had so many, a variety of different interests and different pathways that we went into as well. Like it opens up to TAFE and CIT, which is a different sort of college program, and different university pathways, just like Monty said, like it goes to all over the world. So I'm currently, I just finished my first year, had a gap year last year, and through Big Picture was able to do my LTI, so learning through internships, and did about 4 different ones at different stables. And through that, I actually was offered a full-time manager position at a riding school, and I did that throughout my gap year. And now have gone on to finish my first year of the Bachelor of Equine Science. Majoring in agriculture business out in Wagga Wagga in New South Wales. So it was really cool to show people, a lot of people I found, particularly when I talked to them about Big Picture for the first time, they're a bit skeptical. They're like, oh, you're sort of learning what you want to learn. Like, what does that mean? But really showing people that it can actually lead you to wherever you want to go. And that it doesn't matter whether you've gone through the mainstream education system or you've come through Big Picture, you're entirely capable. Of getting and doing and producing university work.

That's amazing. I love that because that's actually very much core to what's so special about it, I think. And people are beginning to recognise globally why, because there are not so many pathways that have managed to do that real, to do the bridging through. So fine to have an alternative pathway, but something that then actually leads you very clearly with the right credentials in and to open up, as Monty was saying, the gateway into those other places and that range of options you've just been talking about, Lydia. I mean, that's, it's absolutely amazing. Yeah. Brilliant. Monty, please. Yeah, go ahead.

I was just going to say, Lydia, you just kind of reminded me of my own pathway to BPCHA. So where I come from, it's a small town in New South Wales, in Northwest New South Wales, Brewarrina. So it is a population of 1,000 people. It is home to the traditional owners of the Ngiyambar people. So First Nations Australians. It is also home to the 40,000-year-old fish traps. So they're sitting on the Barwon River. They're enjoyed by my people today. So I was a similar story to Lydia, very disengaged in early high school. We did have Big Picture out in Brewarrina a couple years back, so I got to meet Viv White out there along with the other team members. And I remember my mum, because I was so disengaged in mainstream high school because I just found it was boring, I found that it you know, there was nothing like, what was I going to learn about ancient history? Or, you know, why did I have to learn complicated maths? You know, that kind of stuff just didn't really interest me. And so it wasn't until end of 2019, my mum got a transfer to Albury. So she became an assistant principal at one of the local primary schools. And so from that, I started at James Fallon in 2020, and that was like prime bushfire season or leading into COVID as well. And like Lydia, I'm sure like Eliza as well, delved into a lot of interest projects that kind of ranged from learning the traditional culture in Albury, like the Wiradjuri people, that's the traditional land that we're on. And, you know, delving into my own culture, so like teaching others about it, leading on to a visual arts kind of project. So I did an internship at the local Murray Art Museum in Albury, then that kind of opened up a lot of doorways. And then it wasn't until Year 11 and 12, I delved into a project on Aboriginal pedagogies in Big Picture, how they are incorporated. So that was based on the 8 Ways of Learning framework, which came out in Brewarrina in the late 2000s. So then I got to connect with a lot of community members and then I found that passion of, I actually wanna do social work. Originally I wanted to become a teacher, but then that passion of just like giving back to community was something that was so vital. And so I was able to kind of put down preferences at uni. And obviously, because this was in 2023 when I was applying, so there was a lot of unis that were still getting used to this credential pathway. To the end, a lot of unis around Australia and around the globe are based on maths. So, you know, if you don't pass like your basic English or maths, whereas VICTORIAN, we don't kind of do that. That's incorporated in our own learning. And so I remember, you know, La Trobe University, which is the university I go to now. They offered me a tertiary prep course for 8 weeks and I had passed it and have been studying Bachelor of Social Work with Honours and I just finished my second year in that. And also, university now offers that as a pathway. So Big Picture students can actually just come straight into uni without jumping through a prep course. Fantastic. So I guess with a lot of us, it's kind of like, it's an amazing journey to just go, we've all started from young high school students to young successful adults.

I love it. Amazing. Oh, congratulations. It's just so good. And that meeting point, as you've just described, Monty, so powerfully, I think that's exactly the piece that many educators and schools and, you know, system leaders around the world are nervous about because they're always worried that what happens if our young people don't manage to get to this next thing? But what you are all describing really powerfully is just exactly how this has led you through, maybe not always in the most orthodox pathway, but it definitely opens up spaces. Eliza, is there anything else you wanted to say just about that meeting point as well? Like, because you're talking about politics and public policy, how has your journey gone through from the credential into where you are now?

Yeah, absolutely. When looking at big picture, my parents were worried, to be honest. They were— I'd been pushing it and they were worried. They thought I think it originally got brought up when I was in Year 9 and they were worried. They were like, no, you can't do this program because you won't be able to go to uni with it. And I was desperate to go to uni, really always loved learning, loved academics, wanted to go to uni. And so I didn't actually join the program till I was in Year 12. So I've had one, I had one year in it, but I'd say I'm really grateful to previous Like Monty, who had to do those prep weeks, he's gone on and he's done so well that they've gone, oh no, we want these kids, we'll accept them straight away. And so for me, I've now got 18 universities that accept Big Picture and can see the value of that, and that's amazing. And not only have I— I've just received my third university offer, which is amazing, through the program, but I also have a job from an internship So that's something that you can't get through an ATAR. You know, your schooling doesn't give you a job, and I'm not negative towards the traditional system, but for a student like me, it was really great because I'm leaving, you know, I've seen a lot of my friends in the traditional system, they've struggled with their mental health, you know, they're going through rough patches where for me, I've had a complete confidence boost over the last, you know, 12 months because I've gained employment, I've skills in talking to adults. And so this pathway, this kind of transition into university has been easier than I ever expected, especially as I have autism spectrum disorder. And so I was worried about, as a young person with a disability, I was really worried about that transition out of the structure of school. But through Big Picture, it's kind of like you're in school and you're in the workplace. So that was amazing for me.

So good. This is just so powerful. Thank you so much. I love it. Can I ask about just a little bit about the actual experience and particularly the role of some of your teachers and educators and the different adults around you across the experience of being in the Big Picture Learning system? Because I think from what I'm hearing, there's, it's not your standard traditional teacher role, let's say. So how would you talk about the kind of adults that were with you on that journey?

So the two schools I went to for Big Picture, you're in a classroom and you got about one teacher and then maybe about 16 students. So it's quite little in comparison to your normal classroom of maybe even 28 students. And the idea of that is you've got your advisor, so they're not necessarily your teachers, they're your advisors, and they help. Having a littler amount of students helps them to be able to actually spend time individually with each of the students to help support them as well. I had, my advisors are amazing. My advisor that I had throughout Year 8 and Year 9, because in Canberra we do our education system slightly different. So we do high school from Year 7 to Year 10, and then we do college, which is Year 11 and 12. So that's why I went to two different schools for Big Picture. But I had the advisor that I had in Year 8 and 9 come to my Year 12 exhibition. So at the end of each of your terms, and then at the end of Year 12, you do your exhibition. So it's basically a great time to highlight all the amazing things you've done. And it really made you step back and go, oh my gosh, I've actually done a lot more work than I ever thought I could have done. I remember getting to the end of my Year 12 one and going, I haven't done anything. And then during my exhibition, it's like, I did a lot more than I thought I did. But those advisors are crucial people to support you because it's hard in a traditional education system where it might be you've got your English teachers, but they're teaching maybe 120 students. You know, over the week and they're dealing with so many different people as your advisors. They're with 16 kids and they're here to support you. And we had maybe, I think in year 11 and 12, we had 4 different Big Picture cohorts across year 11 and 12. So it meant that as well, we had one teacher who was so into your graphic design and your arts and stuff like that. If you had a project that might involve that, you could go to her and just go, hey, I need your help as well. Even if she wasn't your direct advisor. And stuff like that. So everyone was there to support each other, which was really helpful as well because, you know, my advisor, mate, had so many strengths in so many areas. But, you know, he was like, ah, no, this is the advisor that'll help you out specifically here. They're incredible people who deserve a lot for the work that they do to put in to make Big Picture known. Because I know that talking to so many people on the outside, they look at Big Picture and they stick their nose up. They're like, oh, what do you mean? It's a special program for like 'No, special education, they're not going to make it, blah, blah, blah.' It's like a lot of people thought it was that sort of last resort schools program where like it's like the bottom of the barrel kids, but actually most of the time it's the brightest kids that just don't fit inside the box that the education system has made for them, which is good.

It is good. And I would say that's a really common problem across the world, that exciting innovative programs often get seen as, yeah, not for the mainstream of young people. And actually that's part of what this is really about is like getting rid of that negative association because it's just not that. It's like where young people can thrive in really profound ways, I think, outside of that standardized system and get rid of those kinds of the unfortunate marginalizing, excluding negative stereotypes. So no, thanks for saying that, Lydia. That's amazing. One thing I'm curious about is also the linking out. I mean, Eliza, you said, you know, you had this internship with an amazing foundation, did you say, or organisation? Where do those relationships come from? Is it the advisors and that your teachers in the school who are helping you make those relationships, or are you making those relationships with the external organisations to then go out and to do internships and things like that? So perhaps, yeah, could you speak to that a little bit, Eliza?

Yeah. So the advisor plays a really important role as kind of your advocate. So they're dealing with a certain amount of children, well, young adults, and they're pushing you out into the world. And so if you're writing a thesis, you need an academic mentor because obviously your advisor can't be across, you know, my best mate's doing neuroscience, I was doing politics, like they can't be across that. And so I reached out to a professor at a university and met with her every 2 weeks. I would meet with her and she would look over my work and proofread it and that sort of thing. So she was a very large component. And then you have your internship connections. So all the people with so much expertise that you meet in these workplaces in your industry that you want to go into. And then for me, I also just had general networking. I thought it was really important that, I guess politics, this might be more specific, but for me, I wanted to get out there and I want to like spread. I was really proud of what— that I was graduating and of Big Picture. So every chance I got, I was kind of like, yeah, if I'd be at events, I'd be stopping people and being like, hi, I'm Eliza, I do Big Picture. And so now I've got this network of people from politicians to academics to, yeah, people in the industry that all are looking to support the journey and are also pushing those positive connotations, which I think never hurts either. More people know, kind of, the better it is.

100%. No, that's great. I had another slight curiosity coming from that, but Monty, did you— I just wanted to give you an opportunity. Was there anything you wanted to add on to any of that?

Yeah, so I guess what— and one thing that I will say, and 100% I've experienced, is that the advisors are definitely someone who they advocate for you. And I know in New South Wales, the state that I was in, it was one teacher across 13 students, and there was, it was always a welcoming environment. It was always, you know, you never got left out of people's classrooms. Like, I know, for instance, sometimes if teachers were away, you'd sometimes go and sit in the other advisory room and you would just go and participate with them for a little bit. And that's one thing I will just say is that those relationships are really on a personal level. As I, you know, did two HSC subjects, Aboriginal Studies and Visual Arts. And one thing that was different was that, you know, it wasn't just like a, oh, hi, how you going? All right, take a seat. It was, you know, in BPIJRA it was a lot different. It's like, hey, how you going? Like, where have you been? Like, what's happening with your life? Like, it's very friendly. It's very like, you're almost like a family almost because you're really tied in with them and you often find different advisors with similar interests or sometimes very different interests, but they're so curious about learning from you. Like, I don't know, sometimes like I would chat with advisors during break, like literally, and we'd just be talking about random topics, like anything from like my interests and their interests. Like, well, into a mainstream class, you're just a number at the end of the day. To be Pitcher, you're someone who's got a name who can make an impact, and those advisors really As I know my advisors personally, I still keep in touch with two of them from year 11 and 12. And a lot of them instilled like, you know, you're going to be successful. I can see you doing something. So it was just one of those really positive learning environments where they fostered that, but they also saw the potential in what we were wanting to learn about, you know, and they would reach out to their peers and, you know, and that's where LTIs sometimes often come into play is It's sometimes that connection into the community.

Yeah, I love that. And I actually remember asking Viv about that thing about family, because even looking at the Big Picture learning in the US when I was doing the research for the conversation with Viv, that word family kept coming up all the time. It was so interesting. And to hear you bringing it up as well, it's just, yeah, it's amazing. Eliza, please.

Yeah, I just wanted to add to that description of the friendly environment of Big Picture because I was really shocked having been in mainstream pretty much my whole whole life, that the non-competitive nature. For me, school had always been really competitive. I had been in, you know, selective classes, and kids can be brutal in those classes. And suddenly, it's not that it's not high achieving or it's not rigorous, it is, but because everyone's studying something different, you know, it's not who's going to get the highest score and checking each other's scores. It's actually it is that like inclusiveness and that family, which I think really helps with the culture. I would also say the students are seen on— I don't know if this is the right way to describe it, but an equal level to the teachers. As in, often like my peers would help me or I would help them in like whether it was drafting something, kor, like we would help each other. And even now I go back into my advisory— I'm graduated and I go back into my advisory once a week to volunteer and tutor other kids because that's, that really is the best description I could use of the environment that Big Picture fosters.

That's so interesting because, I mean, so many graduating seniors just run away as fast as they possibly can from their high school experience, right, and never want to go back. So the fact that you're already going back to volunteer and support is just totally amazing. I love that. Lydia, yeah, please.

I wanted to add to that because I think it also creates— it's very important to have a good principal of the school to actually help Big Picture run, to push Big Picture and stuff like that, because I've seen it unfortunately in my old high schools not fall apart, but definitely some of the brightness of Big Picture has been taken away because there's been a new principal come into play that just doesn't understand its value to students and the fact that it has given students a pathway through, but I've also seen it with the principal that we had there at the time who actually ended up coming to my college, how he actually pushed the program and helped it become what it is as well. And so much so that I did a similar thing. I, there are 3 schools around Canberra that do Big Picture, and I've gone into all 3 of those schools and done talks there. So I just did it because I thought it was really important and I really missed, um, Sasha didn't necessarily because Big Picture was still kind of getting to where it needed to be when I was there, but missed having that sort of older senior person come in and say, "Here's where I was and here's where I am now. You can do it too," and sort of being that encouragement. So I went back and did a talk for the 8s, 9s, and 10s. I think they even started it in from year 7 to year 10 at my old high school. And I think it's the biggest inspiration when you see kids who, they know that they're not necessarily in comparison to the mainstream system. They're not necessarily where all the other students are, but you put them in a classroom and you say, you can do it and you've got the power to do this. You can, like, you can do anything you want to achieve. You see their motivations, their passions, their interests, everything just lock in and just like get keen for learning. I think that's definitely as well something I found about Big Picture is it actually got me keen to learn. Whereas before I was like, okay.

Amazing.

Brilliant. Monty?

I was just gonna say, adding on to that, I work for my uni now, so I'm a student ambassador, and because La Trobe University now wants to build that partnership with Big Picture, I was actually invited along with my associate head of campus, and I remember walking into the old school hall that they transformed into a whole Big Picture Academy. So it's got like two stories of like classrooms, and it's just like this open area of just where everyone can just mingle with each other., and I went back there and a lot of the students were actually like that I still remember growing in with the program with were still there. But they had this experience where they got to listen to my University Pathways like journey, but they also have now contacts with La Trobe. So we actually put it out there and we said, hey, because of what I had to do, like do a prep course and then that allowed La Trobe to be like, well, actually no, this doesn't need a prep course anymore, like this intersco be an entry in. But I remember just all these students were engaged, like they were just going like, oh my God, like this is so cool. Like someone that came to our high school pretty much carved the way for us in a local community setting. And so, but even Latrobe, they got to sit there in this hall and they just got to talk to the teachers. And I remember at the end of the session, they just said, we'd love to have you guys like La Trobe back for other sessions to help us promote this pathway. So it's kind of a full circle moment, me going back there, but it was amazing because I got to see those students' interests and also got to tell them like, hey, you know, even though it's a different pathway and even though your parents might be nervous or anxious about it, but we've got a local pathway for you.

Yeah. Amazing. No, it just, it feels like the relationships are just so key to all of it. So yeah, no, thank you so much. Just to wrap up, if there was just a a short message you might send to global educators, you know, so people listening to this are literally all around the world, more than 150 countries, and in working in schools and policy and all sorts of areas. So you've sent an incredibly powerful message already, actually, in your experiences, but just what would be a message you would say about finding out more about BPL or beginning to bring this into different contexts?

I just wanted to add to Monty's point, we actually have in my advisory we had 3 people in the cohort actually already doing tertiary education while in high school.

Wow.

So like, that is the level of academic rigor that is being achieved through this program. And I guess that final point you were talking about, I would say it's not easy. Like, that point about having a good principal is so valid because if it's a structural thing, if the structure of a high school does not accept it, it's not even going to have a chance. And education is inherently political, you know, especially inclusive education. You know, we have high amounts of Indigenous students in the program, we have high amounts of students with disability. If it's not supported and it doesn't get up, there is a reason. And so if I could talk to people in places of power, I could say, think about why you don't want to support it. Come into the classroom, have a look, see what's being produced, and reassess.

Great message. Yeah, thank you.

I think if it— well, my message to higher educators, I'd fully back that. I'd say take a look at your system, what's working, what's not, not working. A lot of schools I know, they'll actually sometimes sadly kick people out of school because it doesn't make their school look good. And I think that's really sad because you want to give each student a chance, like preach, you know, we get everyone into the universities, we get everyone here, but if you're not giving every student a chance and supporting them from the moment they walk in that school door to the moment that they leave each day, then what are you doing as educators? Like, you're not actually educating, you're just facilitating a babysitting program. So it would be to, you know, look at the structure of your school, look who needs your help, and actually help them. There's a whole bunch of people that go through their whole school life, like I have dyslexia and dyscalculia, I wasn't diagnosed with them until I was in about year 8, and Throughout even my whole primary school years, it was evident I had something, but you know, no educators actually really necessarily stood up to go, hey, let me help you. So I think it's really important if you're going into an education role to help every student that you see. It's not just, oh, they're nice, or they're this. Every student deserves a chance. And to any students that are going through, don't let anyone tell you that you can't do it, because you can definitely do it. You prove everyone wrong. You know, you show, if you show up each day, you're doing half the work. And so just keep doing what you're doing and you'll go anywhere in life if you keep your eyes locked onto it and ignore the haters and prove them wrong.

Yes.

Beautiful. Monty, do you want to take us home?

I would say to hire up education people, talk to community, talk to the school, talk to the parents, talk to the principal. Because in this day and age there's so many education pathways. I find even just going back into schools for my university job, a lot of people find it boring and a lot of people will get fixated on just a grade. But whereas in Bikiccia you can excel, you can become the most successful, like, young person. You could be, you know, the first one going to university. So it's about I would say, especially coming from social work, involve everyone. Talk to the school, get the community involved because we need the voices. And also step into those classrooms, sit down, talk with the students as well, talk with the teachers and really just be involved and just maybe even spend a week in a big picture setting. And I guarantee if anyone did do that for a week, you would come out a totally different perspective. Like you would come out a lot different than when you first went in. But it's not a special education pathway or anything like that. It is a gateway to a future that sets you up for success beyond high school.

Beautiful.

Everything you guys have said is like perfect. It makes me so happy because Big Picture literally changed my educational life. It changed the way that I actually view education and how it should be for people as well. Because I think there was a video I saw and it was looking at the education system over 50 years and it was just like, not necessarily much has changed. It's just we're still expecting students to fit in a box that's not necessarily designed for them. And I think it's sort of wrapping up Big Picture in its nutshell. It prepares its students for the world, whereas the mainstream education system prepares you to just keep being a follower, whereas Big Picture allows you to lead your own sort of ring of things. You're equipped with just better all-over life skills, whereas I've seen quite a few of my friends struggling at uni now where I'm thriving at university where I never thought I'd end up going. Or, you know, they find it hard to reach out to find placements and stuff like that. Whereas I'm like, okay, let me just find this person's email. No, they said no to me. No, that's fine. Try the next person. Like, I don't have that hesitation to go, maybe there's an opportunity. And it was just those, the world's limitless. It's your, it's what is it? The world is your oyster.

I love it.

Sorry, I just had to say that because I'm so proud to be a Big Picture graduate.

I love it.

You, yeah, beautiful. No, you are totally inspiring to me. Clearly you three are an amazing testament to what the program does and Viv's amazing work and the team and everyone, but it just needs to be in more places around the world. And so no, thank you so much. We hope you've enjoyed this episode. Please feel free to continue the dialogues with our guests, with us at Good Impact Labs, on our blog or on social media or within your own network.

Thanks.