4. IB Systems Transformation Pathway (part of the Global Pathways Innovations Mini-Series)

In this episode of the miniseries, I chat to Sarah, Anisa, and Anton from the UWC Southeast Asia in Singapore, and Gabby and Satya, alumni of UWC Atlantic College in Wales, about their experiences on the new IB Systems Transformation Pathway. This is a really exciting pilot as part of the IB 16+ Review and pioneered with United World Colleges to enable transformative change, systems leadership, and making the world a fairer place for the future. You can find more links to further information about the pathway in to share next.

My name is Anton. I am 17. I come from China.

Great, good to meet you.

Hello, my name is Sarah. I am 17 as well, and I'm from Azerbaijan.

Excellent. Hi Sarah.

And then lastly, my name is Anisa. I am 18, and I'm from Tajikistan, Central Asia.

So firstly, how would you explain the thing that you're involved in, the Systems Transformation Pathway, to somebody who's never heard of this before?

So Systems Transformation Leadership for Change is the full name of the course. This course is part of the International Baccalaureate program. It runs for 2 years. The main idea is that you learn 5 different skills. They include systems thinking, design thinking, changemaker mindset, project management, project management, and leadership. And the way you learn this is through a set of different projects. These projects pertain to real-world issues, and the general workflow is in which you analyze the system and then you identify key stakeholders, map them out in a visual manner, and then through which you can find certain leverage points where you can achieve large change through a small modification.. And then I think one key difference with this compared to other courses that you actually make this change and you make this process for many different projects. So we're currently working on our own individual projects where we have full agency over what we do. Previously, we have done some teacher-led projects such as one with Amala and refugees, as well as one with the environmental sustainability.

So I would say for me, this course is quite interdisciplinary. Which is a lot of links with different subjects, and you do not necessarily have to have any background information before coming here. It kind of gives you real-world applications of many courses that you might take, from humanities to sciences. And I think this is what kind of makes this course different, that you may apply your knowledge from normal classroom to the real-world issues that you are— we are facing currently in our world.

Well, thank you guys. I think similarly, I believe Systems Transformation is a course that provides you a safe space to go into the real world and to make the change that you really want to make, to have this leverage point in any system, whether it is something related to sustainability, peacebuilding, something AI, or anything related to UWC mission, as we are in UWC School. And personally, for me, I think Being part of systems is an ability to pursue the mission, to make education a force to unite people, nations, and cultures for peaceful and sustainable future. Because by itself, the course in a classroom, we are people from very, very diverse backgrounds. And having those minds who have experienced different things, who have been raised under different circumstances in one place, having them think together, working groups collaborate, and go into the real world and discuss how to to leverage specific points in order to change one thing in a system and to make a positive impact in a community and also in a global scale in the long run. This is what systems thinking is. It is a place for changemakers.

Brilliant, thank you. That's amazing. And you've already started kind of straying into the next question, but I'll ask it anyway. But let's think a bit more deeply about what are the significant differences that you feel between SDP and the other courses? I mean, you've mentioned the interdisciplinary angle, which is great. Perhaps you could think about some other different aspects of what makes it a different kind of experience, and that's not just in the content, but it also might be in the way that the course is taught or the way it's assessed.

I think that comparing it to my other subjects, it is in a way, I would say, quote unquote, "chillen," but at the same time, it depends what you're working on, because comparing it, suppose, to economics, In economics, there's obviously a lot of diagrams and you are able to cram for an exam the day before or the week before, and the result is short-term. Of course, you'll take an exam and that's it. But I think that is not possible for systems thinking. Systems thinking actually requires a lot of engagement in the subject. It requires you to be active, to ask questions, to collaborate with others, and to reach out to people in the field. Throughout the course, starting from day 1 to the day when you hand in your assignments. So your presence and your participation is very, very important.

Great.

Yeah.

So I would give a specific example from my biology course. So we usually talk, for example, about ocean acidification. We say why it happens and what are the sources. And usually we do not talk about how to solve it. We just generally say, so we should reduce our carbon emissions. But how exactly are we going to do it? So I think this is when the Systems Transformation course comes in. It gives you the understanding of, so there are other factors that play a role, policymaking, maybe laws in the country, something where you map out the whole system of this ocean acidification thing. You understand that it's not only about reducing your carbon emissions, but also changing the mindsets of people about the issue. So I think this is how this course is quite different. It gives you more specific details about how to solve the issue aside from just saying that, so 'This is how the system works. This is our issue. But how do we solve it?' Amazing.

I think I also have another example. So imagine you're studying about climate change. For example, in chemistry class, you would study how you use this combustion reaction, which is exothermic and boils water, and this reaction releases CO2, and because of its absorption spectrum, it increases the Earth's temperature. But in systems transformation, you're forced to adopt a far more interdisciplinary perspective into the issue. So you consider the economic and political aspects as well as social aspects, for example, regarding public perception and the cost of living associated with transitioning to renewable energies. I would say some other differences are that, so number one, there's a— this course takes 4 blocks per week compared to 2 or 3 blocks for any other subject. So we actually have a far longer time in the classroom than in other subjects. Another one is that Even though basically any subject, while you learn the theory, you also have applications, such as even in chemistry, you, you learn about the applications of what you learn, but it's not the forefront, it's not the main emphasis. In systems transformation, however, the application is the starting point from which you use the theory to do the application. I think another one is the ability to have individual agency in the, in your course. There is no set syllabus or anything. You really like do your own thing. And lastly, I think given that we're doing real projects, there's also a real sense of uncertainty in what we do. I think those are the key differences.

Oh, that's, that's an amazing range that you've covered. No, thank you. Could you maybe just briefly talk about, have you felt any differences? Because obviously all the approaches you've described there are fascinating. But then, as you said, Anissa, about the economics exam and that, you know, everything gets crunched down into a standardized exam and that's normally how things roll. In different subjects, right? So what's the reality in this situation where actually then you have to take some of those different kinds of approaches and then be assessed on them? So how does that feel?

I think personally, like, if you don't— guys don't mind, for me, the Systems Transformation exam, which we had like a case study day, it was an entire day exam where first half we worked in a group of people that we already felt comfortable working with. We knew the different approaches, the strategies that those people used. And then towards the end, we used all the skills that we have learned throughout the course in order to design a policy or to recommend any intervention for the system. So personally for me, as I mentioned before, since there's a lot of engagement and you need to participate in the class in order to do well and to understand what the course is about, I think that the exam felt like a regular class. It wasn't that exam where you sit, there's a time— of course, there was a time restrictions. But at the same time, it didn't feel like my exam in economics or in politics where I was stressing out, like thinking whether I would be able to finish the exam on time. It was more, again, quote-unquote, chill and relaxed, as you are interested in the course and you're interested in the case study or in the material that you're engaged with. So I feel like it was in a way enjoyable, and it felt like a regular class and engagement with peers.

Amazing. First time I've ever heard the word chill and exam in the same sentence.

True.

Yeah, that's true.

I would say that during the case study assessment day, there is still like a small amount of stress and time pressure that at least that I felt, because at the end of the day, this still affects the final mark that you're going to get. And the final mark plays a huge role, especially given that it gives you like two of your subject slots are taken by this one single system transformation subject. So I would say I still feel the stress. I think maybe your experience is different.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, that's great. Can I ask, how does it feel to, because you say the first half of the case study day, you're in a group. So that means you're being assessed as a group or you're being assessed individually within a group. So how does that feel? And how does, you know, how did you experience that?

So I would say that when we were having the case study, I actually felt like a real changemaker. I was so engaged into the issue that I was having and it wasn't feeling like an exam actually for me. I would say it was the same experience that I was solving an issue. And this understanding of the fact that there is no right answer, there is just an intervention that might work or not work in this case. And it is so fascinating the fact that we've worked in the group. Yeah, we were assessed like as an individual, but within the group. Because if you want to be a changemaker, it's a lot about teamwork. If you cannot engage with different perspectives of people, their interdisciplinary approach, then it is not going to work for you as a changemaker. And I think in our interconnected world, it is so much important that we can work with each other. So I feel like this kind of assessment was very, very helpful for us.

Oh, I love it. So then you spoke a little bit about, Anissa, about the UWC mission and the fact that you have connected your experience of the course and your, maybe your meaning and purpose about this course with the UWC mission. And that's fantastic. And this is also then going to become a course in lots of other schools around the world, potentially in, you know, many different countries, many different contexts, most of them not UWC schools, and many of them maybe not having the same level of resources like access to, you know, networks that you might have. So imagining yourself in those kinds of contexts, can you think of any advice you might give to young people in those contexts or even to teachers or schools? School leaders in those situations taking on this course?

I may start with the fact of embrace your culture. Your background is something very important in this course. There are no actually boundaries of, so you have to do this exact issue, you have to solve the food waste issue in our world.

No.

Think of something, for example, if you are from rural area, why don't you just work with the rural system, education system, and then you may try to kind of change it. So every background information and every value that you have within yourself can be connected to this course. And so I would advise the person, don't try to be anyone who you are not. If you have a certain background information, a certain passion, anything, try to embrace it and proceed with it. Because if you are more connected to the issue, then you may be much more passionate to solve it rather than on doing something that was assigned to you by teachers. It is also very important to be empathetic towards people and understanding that how might your intervention affect people, why it might not work for a certain group, or you should consider every single point. I sometimes feel like we see them more as part of the system rather than the humans behind it. And I, of course, you have to do sacrifices, but you should understand that what are the effects of your implementation and why might it work or not work in your context.

Yeah, great. And I guess you are also part of the system, right? The system is not separate from you.

Correct.

So every person who enters the classroom has like a unique skill set based on not only the subjects they take, but also other skills such as communication and collaboration. I would say that it's important to, first of all, be able to recognize what those are. And second, be able to understand how to apply them. So I guess for a personal example would be that I chose my final project to be related to climate change and environmental science because I am familiar with it. I'm also familiar with things like music, and I use that in one of my other projects as well regarding the sustainability. I think that overall you should be able to recognize your strengths, and then if you have any like things that you're not really good at, that's where the teammates come and help you fill those gaps.

Yeah.

Can I just add on to that?

Please.

Yeah.

I have 3 advices that I would have loved to hear if I joined this course. But for those who are out there listening to this podcast, my first advice is know yourself. The guys already mentioned, know your background, know your passions, know what you're interested in. Because I think that personally for me throughout this course, at the end of the day, when now I'm working on my individual project, The reason why I chose to do something related to sustainability and creating the Mini UWC is because I myself am interested in sustainability and I want to do something. I want to transform the system of the way people think about it and the way people design courses on sustainability. So knowing yourself, know your strengths, know your weaknesses, and know what you're interested in. That is the first step. Second step, start small. Don't be afraid to dream big, But at the same time, don't be afraid to start small. Starting small, especially in systems transformation, thinking in systems and working in systems, you actually understand that after mapping the system map, engaging with stakeholders, getting your quantitative and qualitative research, you understand that perhaps the leverage point is just that one little thing that you need to transform, and that will have the ripple effect on the entire system. So systems transformation is not about setting out another Paris Agreement or creating another space shuttle. It's not about that. It is about understanding what the leverage point is and starting small, because it is just like in butterfly effect, it is those small actions that make the big difference. And third and most, most important, stay connected. In this age of where technology is so developed and we are so connected with each other, it is important. Go on LinkedIn, go on WhatsApp, Instagram, any platform you want. There are so many changemakers, so many people who have taken systems transformation and people who are willing to help. Reach out to those people, reach out to the changemakers in the field you're interested in, reach out to big organizations and at the same time individuals like who may be younger or older than you. You never know what the result is and what the end goal would be like. So just be brave, take it courageously, and make a change.

Great advice.

I love it. That's brilliant. And, um, so for example, you talked about biology, you talked about economics, right? Teachers get trained in biology and economics, right? They've probably got a degree in biology or a degree in economics, and they come in, you know, they come in to teach the thing they learn, right? There, there aren't a lot of people, and Ivan's pretty special, there aren't a lot of people who have deep knowledge and experience in systems transformation as teachers, right? So that's also a challenge for the IB and for, you know, for us thinking about this kind of work. What have you noticed about the way that your teachers come to this, or how is it, you know, in terms of your relationships with the teachers as you're learning, you know, learning with them maybe?

I think that personally for me, since I take double humanities, I take economics and global politics, Systems Transformation weaves very well into those subjects. For example, I can bring an example when we were talking about like the historical aspect of any war or global politics class. I can definitely like without any effort add the element of systems into it and like always thinking in the long run because that's what we aim to do in systems. We always think, so if that government does this or if this intervention is being done or if those tariffs are being in place, what is the long-run effect on all the stakeholders involved? And I think that being a student who takes systems in those classes makes those conversations even more richer and even more diverse because it in a way adds another lens to it, a lens that is not included in the textbook and a lens that you learn through kind of exploring the system through having an experience there. So in a way, I think that has an impact, but for my econs class, my teacher himself, he worked in the ESG department, so he has and understanding between like the interdisciplinary nature of economics and environmental studies. So I think that class, being that class, was a great place to further develop and enhance my understanding of the things that I want to do in the future. And those conversations that I had with my teacher, the way that he understands me, and that brings me back to your point that it would be really, really important and really, really rewarding to have not only students studying this course, But at the same time, any teacher in IB having this foundational understanding of what systems thinking is, so they can kind of pass it on to the students.

Great point.

Yeah.

Okay. I think I want to add that the role of the teacher is also a bit different in the course. And I think there are like a few concepts from scientific pedagogy that I can apply here. So there's like an old theory called objectivism where the teacher just like gives information to the student to learn. And that feels much like reading from a textbook. But I feel like in system transformation, they're not really like a sort of like purveyor of information, but instead it's more like a facilitator of learning. I would say that this fits better with the nature of system transformation as a whole, because the nature of the, our projects is that we're going to know some things that a teacher doesn't. And same thing with the teacher. And I think because of this, instead of the teacher just giving information to us, they instead facilitate a sort of self-powered growth and development that is really valuable and not really seen as much in other courses.

Amazing.

I would say that since I take a lot of sciences, I had two sciences, but the teachers usually look at this course with a bit of suspicion, as I see it, because it is something new and something that nobody knows about. Even I struggled at first to link it to my sciences because I thought that Systems Transformation is more, more about humanities. It's about how you can go into government and then do something. That's what I thought at first, but then I realized that this course taught me how to ask right questions at the right place, how to approach the teacher, and how to actually get the information that you need and get the most from the lessons that you have. So when I have a very difficult topic that I'm working on, it looks so complex and I do not understand even how to approach it. This course let me understand that it is okay when something is very difficult. You should just map it out, divide it to small parts, and see which part is the most impactful one and where you should start. So I think that's how this course not only helped me with my understanding, but also like it helped me to even explain it to teachers that, you know, it can be linkable and it's not such a suspicious Tim Logan.

Great. I love it.

I also want to add that not only does it like teach us to like embrace this sort of complexity and be able to analyze complex systems, for example, like in a complex system, like I'll use the climate change example. Without the tools from system thinking, I wouldn't even know where to begin because of like how complex, multifaceted, and nuanced it is. Another aspect of it, I think, in system transformation is how it allows you to embrace uncertainty in that you don't necessarily know what impact your actions will make. This is very different from like other courses, of course. I think this is also why like in one of the assessment objectives, you need to write an impact report, but it is not assessed based on how much impact you make, but rather on your ability to analyze that impact. So I think the nature of the assessment itself demonstrates this mindset of embracing the uncertain. So yeah, the course allows us to recognize and I think appreciate complexity and uncertainty in a way that is very transferable to other things.

I also had the great pleasure of chatting with Gabby, a member of the original pioneer cohort at UWC Atlantic College, who really helped to shape the pathway, which you'll hear her and Satya call the STP. I started by asking her to describe her overall experience on the course.

So I think in a general overview, my experience with the STP was so transformative. It just, it, it was just a big shift for me cuz I'm from Brazil and in Brazil we cannot even choose our subjects, let alone choosing someone that is that different and like innovative. So in Brazil we just take about 18 subjects. So everyone has to take everything from sociology to geography, to math, to physics. So we actually don't have any time to go in depth into anything because we just have so much to cover and everything is just so surface level. So when you, you turn to the IB, that you can actually just choose to specialize in 6 things and you get really good at those 6 things. And when you go to the STP, which is completely different from anything even the IB has ever seen, it was just so transformative for me. I think that's the word, but just in general, such a big a big change for me and it made me see education in a different way. And it even like, right now I'm in university and it even inspired me to study education at university. So that's something I'm really excited to understand more because I think not only access to education and transformative education, but just in general, how you create education, how you co-create education was something that the SCP really made me think about in a way I've never thought about before. So even in our quote unquote lectures, there was only 6 people in my impact area. The teacher was really with the mindset of just collaborating and helping us understand something rather than just like lecturing at us. It was just him with his expertise and just more knowledge that he had on the topic, just trying to share it with us and trying to connect that with our past experience and our individual understanding of things. So I don't know, it was just so different. It felt very collaborative, even with the teachers, even with with Maria, who was behind everything. I feel like we had agency in education that we have never thought I, I could have in high school.

Amazing. Could you just say a little bit about the impact area? So particularly, like, which impact area did you choose, and then what did others choose? What was available? How did it kind of structure out the, the overall course?

Yeah, so at UWC Atlantic, in my first year, we had migration, energy, food, and biodiversity. I was in biodiversity. But the way we did it was we just studied together. We had sort of like the core classes all together for about a semester. And then by the end of that semester, we were actually divided into impact areas. So we, we had both like a sense of sort of like general collaboration with everyone. We're close as a group for everyone, but then also we had the opportunity to meet with people in our impact area because we come from, especially when you think about biodiversity, the people in my group. There were people who have already worked with biodiversity before. There are people who were environmental activists. There were people who came from big cities. There are people who came from a farming background. So we all had valuable experiences that we could share, but they needed to sort of like connect into a more, I would say, technical lens. So we had our teacher who was much more knowledgeable in biodiversity than any of us. So he would introduce to us some key important things that it would just, not necessarily in terms of an intervention or or changing the world, just not yet, just understanding more about biodiversity. So he was teaching us about the IUCN, which is the International Union for Conservation of Nature. So we would understand sort of like what the IUCN does and how they classify species into different categories depending on how endangered they are. So it was just understanding sort of like this technical lens and learning about sovereignty and learning about different case studies. We saw a case study in Oceania— and no one was from Oceania, so it was very, a very diverse perspective and international perspective on that. So on, on the first sort of like first weeks, it was everyone separately just understanding more about their impact area, and then from there we could collaboratively help each other have our own individual intervention in our own country. And then after that, our collaboration—

fantastic. So that, that concept of the intervention was obviously a key thing. So what, firstly, how did you kind come to understand the idea of intervening in systems? Like, you know, even that language that is being used. So how do you understand that now?

Yes, I think coming back to our core classes, whenever else together we're not divided into impact areas, I think we learned a lot about sort of like the technical systems thinking— not skills, but maybe like the modules we had and like the knowledge we had about leverage points. And about— we had like power diagrams to understand power dynamics and where our power, like, is in the system and what kind of, like, powerful stakeholders we should start contacting. And then we also had some interviews we had to make with, I believe it was 5 stakeholders from different perspectives. So that was literally forcing us to go out into the system. So I appreciate that it was not only very technical and saying that we were just understanding some words and trying to apply the words to our home content, but we were actually just like going out and talking to people and scheduling calls and visiting people and actually just like doing our research with the community and understanding what they needed. So because I was doing biodiversity, I talked to so many different people, from people in the local government to people in the local university, from people in the local businesses who live from, quote unquote, exploiting biodiversity. So how do we understand all of these different perspectives and what do they think the, the community itself needs to be more sustainable? Like, what do they think is lacking? So I think that combined to the knowledge in systems thinking and understanding which leverage points they're trying to talk to me about, that combination of both, I think that was powerful to understanding what we actually needed.

Yeah. Amazing. And then, so that kind of surfaced a recognition that you had of some kind of, let's say, need or opportunity or opening where you, where you decided you then wanted to intervene in the system. So could you talk a bit about what did that lead to for you specifically in terms of your intervention and then like even just how are you reflecting on that now? Like, did it work, in inverted commas? I mean, whatever that might mean in terms of your systems intervention. And, and what did you learn from that experience?

Yeah, so it was interesting actually, because when I was doing my research, I had a little bit of discrimination against education projects because I was like, I'm not just gonna raise awareness, like, I need to do something, I need to work in like conservation, I actually need to make a change. So I, I was sure I didn't want to raise awareness or anything like that. I thought that was not that important. But then when I started to interview the stakeholders and talk to them, something that literally everyone was bringing up was that, oh yeah, but like our children right now don't know anything about biodiversity. So like people from like the local universities, I was talking to her a little bit about some problems we have with sort of like wind turbines. And then she was saying that like children don't know what that is. And that's so true because in Brazil, our education system has a common like curricular base for everyone in the whole country. So if you live in a very regional biome that only exists in that specific part of Brazil, which was my case, you're not going to learn about that because that doesn't make sense for someone who lives like miles away and they don't have the same biodiversity. It's like, that's just not going to be in the curriculum at all because they don't need these local nuances in the educational system. So how's the next generation supposed to even know what they have to care about? So that was something I started realizing that, okay, maybe, maybe education with sort of like younger children would be helpful, but I had no idea about what I was going to do. I was trying to brainstorm every class and it just, it was just not coming to me. And then I scheduled a meeting with my teacher. I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. Please help me. And then, which is what I mean, like it's so co-designed, so collaborative, even with our teachers. Like, I feel like the teachers genuinely, at least at UWC Atlantic, they really want you to succeed and want you to do what's most effective for your system. So it was so nice that I was talking to my teacher and we came, after a long conversation, to the conclusion that it would make sense to have sort of like a collector's item, sort of like something that the kids could just like look for and collect and have like sort of like Pokémon cards but not quite. We were thinking of something like that. And then I was thinking about that idea a little more and I came to, to the final idea, which is— I don't know if you've ever seen like the FIFA soccer sticker albums.

Yeah, I used to have them when I was a kid.

Yeah, yeah, it was because Brazil is massive on football, so we're like, oh yeah, maybe the kids already like that kind of thing, we could just shift it to biodiversity. So we did that, we lost the biodiversity sticker album. So basically what we did was for the rare stickers, the rare stickers were the endangered species based on the IUCN.

Oh, beautiful.

And then the design was a gravura, which is a a very traditional local design for art. So it was, it was both combining local arts and also local biodiversity. And then as you go forward in the book, there's gonna be, according to the IUCN, sort of like critically endangered and whatever. And then that not only represents how difficult it's going to be for you to find the sticker, but it also represents, according to the IUCN, how difficult it is for you to find the animal itself in real life. So giving the kids this idea that like, oh, if you don't have the sticker, it's probably because we don't have that in the wild anymore. And like, how do we get that sense of like urgency for our species that we're losing?

Amazing. And reflecting on it now, like, where do you feel like you grew and really learned kind of new competencies that you perhaps wouldn't have done if you'd been in a standard Brazilian school or in, you know, in a more traditional school?

I think something that we all agree on is that SCP is really stressful. It's such a learning experience. It's such an empowering, transformative, amazing thing. Like, it's something that absolutely anyone should consider doing because it's— it just changes you in such an amazing way. But it's so stressful. It's so difficult. It's very demanding. And I think that's something that happens so differently, even from when I think about university now, because when I have something demanding for university, it just means I have a 3,000-word essay due in a week. That doesn't mean that like I need to go any further than just like sitting down and do it. But in SCP, it's not just about sitting down and do it because we literally had essays, like full essays that we had to write with 6 people. So how do you write an essay collaboratively? Like it was a report of like a work that all of us did. So all of us had to approve everything that was written because it was our report about our intervention. So how do you find a time that works for everyone? Or how do you just separate different paragraphs that everyone can write a little bit about? And how do you make the design look nice? Because it was a, it was a report, so we wanted it to look nice. And then it just takes 3 times the, like, the full amount of time that you actually would just do if you just did it fully alone. So it was a bit stressful. It was, it just taught me so much about collaborating in that sense, because I've never had to collaborate that deeply with people to the point that I had to like write reports with them, and just meet after class so often and find times that works for everybody. So I think not only for our impact areas, but even when we were in the core modules before we were in impact areas, that was something that they were really emphasizing, that basically I think, I don't know, 70% of our homework would always be collaboratively. So either in groups of 4 or groups of 6. So not only I had the opportunity to meet different people who are taking different other 4 classes outside of SCP and would end up in different impact areas because they had different priorities than I did. So it was just such a diverse experience and every group would be so different in every way that we would work and every way that we would meet up or just divide work on our own. And I think that really helps you to just real life in general, because when you go to real life and you have a real job, you're going to have to cooperate with people even if you don't like them, even if they have different priorities from you, even if They're just so different. You have to collaborate with them and you have to find a way, just meet them somewhere to agree on what you're going to submit to the teacher, for example. So I think it would be helpful.

Yeah, amazing. And just, could you just say, because those projects were not just as part of the learning, but they were actually also assessed, formally assessed pieces, right? Those, some of those collaborative pieces were actually part of the formal IB assessment. So how, how did you feel about the assessment part of it?

I think when I think about these assessments, the first thing that comes to mind was our case study because that was the most intense. I don't even know if I can call it an exam because it wasn't quite an exam. I don't know what it was, but it was an assessed piece of work that was very intense. It was, it was hours and hours. It was from the morning all the way to the end of the afternoon. We had a lunch break and that was it. But basically we're digging deep and deep and deeper into a case study and we're learning about it and studying about it. But then by the end, we're building up the blocks to finally analyze the stakeholders. But the way we analyze the stakeholders, because it's SCP, it's obviously just not going to be a paragraph about each stakeholder. But we were in groups. It was 4 people, each one of these people from a different impact area. So it was so interesting that we could literally have a case study seen from 4 different lenses, like someone thinking about the biodiversity, someone thinking about energy. So it was just so rich. But then by the end, we had to assign each person a stakeholder and record a video explaining how this stakeholder sort of like relates to the entire system. And then you would imagine that it would be so stressful, like we would be blaming each other. But then I think because it was later on in the course and we were so connected, we were friends, we had built this whole thing together. So it was so beautiful to see that we're all just collaborating. We're all like, oh, you got this. No, it's okay. We can do it again. We can separate. Oh, this person can say this instead. So it was just. It was a big collaborative environment.

Oh, that's so good. That's so good. And just maybe finally, what if you were, because I'm sure you, you're aware that, you know, you were the first and this is going to be out around the world in IB schools everywhere. What do you hope for the course itself or, or what would you like to see happen? You know, because I can hear there were some really rich experiences, but also some quite difficult experiences with a lot of growth. What would you hope for the course as it goes into different kinds of schools, maybe not as well-resourced or, you know, in all sorts of different countries or, you know, like if it came to Brazil and it was in Brazilian schools, what would be some of your hopes for the future of the course?

I really hope the course has an aspect of connection in some way, because I went to a boarding school, so we obviously were very connected. We would see each other every day. We would have lunch with each other. But I really wonder how it's going to work out for, for schools that are not boarding. Like, how are you going to see people just for 2 hours every 3 days? And then you're going to have to connect to the point they have to collaborate for, for some crazy group assessments. Like, how are you going to have that trust and have that confidence and that just connection with people? So I don't know. I hope that people have an opportunity to maybe have an extra class for, I don't know, bonding experience or just because we also had something that we called Prentice at UWC Atlantic. So it was 2 extra hours a week that we just had together to just do anything, basically. So we would work on our collaborative project, or maybe we could work on our individual projects for SCP. So I really, I really wonder how that's gonna work out, but I really hope that people can have this aspect of friendship and connection, because I think something that Maria, who started this whole thing, always says— she says that systems work is together work. So I really hope that they have this aspect and they they appreciate that it's not only for a grade. And that's something that us as the Pioneers, we talk about so much. Like, we don't want— basically, for every IB subject, you can just search up, I don't know, chemistry practice exam, or like, top 10 things you need to know before your exam. But like, we don't want STP to just be that kind of subject. Like, STP has this aspect of unknown and just trusting the process. But then I don't know how different it's gonna be if they just already have everything set and they have some like lists of like key terms that you should use in your essay for this and for that. Like, I think they need this aspect of collaboration and unknown and just friendship to support each other in the process.

I then chatted with Setya, also a founding member of the pioneer cohort of STP students, and I asked her, having graduated in June and gained a little bit of distance from her experience, what things had particularly stayed with her.

Yeah, it's funny. I was actually talking to one of my co-year's younger brothers recently because he was interested in the STP course and he wanted to apply. And at first I was like, oh, it's been what, 4 months since the course? I hope I like remember everything. And then I started rambling for like a whole hour just about every little, little detail. And I was like, I'm sorry if this is too much information. I can definitely attest to Gabby's description of it being transformative, and I'd like to add revolutionary. I had originally switched from the Cambridge curriculum, which I did enjoy, so IGCSEs, and then I was going to move on to A-levels. One of the reasons I went to AC was because of the IB, because I already saw that as a more forward-thinking system of education. And then as soon as I heard about the STP course, I was like, oh yeah, I need to apply for that. I understand Gabby's description of it being stressful sometimes, especially with some of the collaborative aspects, because managing that many students and so many different ideas, because of course it is an extremely diverse cohort coming from various walks of life and various different perspectives, different approaches. Sometimes there were clashes, as you can expect in those kind of spaces. But it really taught us how to work through them. And I think that's really been applicable in my life now, navigating those kind of situations and thinking on the spot, thinking outside of the box. Those have all been incredible. At my workspace today, actually at lunch, we were— the program Gapminder came up, which is basically where you can see and visualize different trajectories, different trends. Climate change, like hotspots and stuff like that. And the person who was talking about it was like, oh yeah, there's this thing called Gapminder. And he was explaining it to someone else and he was like, oh, it's data something. And I was like, oh yeah, I did that at school. It was part of one of my courses. And then he was like, oh, I did it for my master's. And I was like, whoa.

Okay.

So we've been like super ahead and taught these really, really incredible tools from the get-go. And I think those tools will definitely stick with me.

Can I just ask you, like, what was it about the course and the experience that kind of connected with you with something that you really wanted to be learning? Like, what was it, your impact area part, or was it the systems, or how did you connect in and suddenly kind of find like, ah, yeah, this is, this is what I want to be learning?

Yeah. When I did my IGCSEs. And my education beforehand, all I thought was we're sat in a class. I mean, it was all learning, which I find interesting, but we're sat in a class, we're taught stuff, and then we have to memorize it and regurgitate it on the exam. STP was something that you really put into practice and you understood how to apply it to real life situations, which I found invaluable. And yeah, the impact area, it's really interesting. When I had come into it, I was hoping to do migration and then I was put in the food impact area, which ended up being an incredible experience. And I realized how actually all of the impact areas overlapped so well that you didn't miss out on one of, you know, the others. Because whilst you were honed in on your specific area, I realized how everything is interlinked. And that's, I think, one of the revolutionary aspects of it is now I've stepped back and I don't know if this is a curse or a blessing because as an activist from the age of 11, I've always been like, oh, I need to fix this, this and this. And now seeing how interlinked it is, it's almost made it trickier because I'm like, oh, I wanna work on this, but if I work on that, I need to work on this. And yeah, very jumbled up, but in the sense it's made it more clear as a whole picture. And then there's the collaborative aspect of it. I'd always thought to myself when I was doing exams, I was like, you're not gonna be doing like work all by yourself all the time when you go out into the real world. And I was, my 15-year-old self was like, why isn't there like a group exam? That would be so nice. And then there actually was on this course.

And then there was.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, that's great. And could you perhaps just then talk about your experience in the, when you were then intervening in systems, because I, as I understand it, you do some kind of systems intervention on an individual level and then you also do it as a group.

Yeah.

So yeah, what was your experience like on either or both of those and where was the learning in that process for you?

Yes, we started, and obviously it's 4 terms, so first term we as a collective learned all the key skills and tools that we needed to intervene in systems, to break down systems, understand and then figure out the barriers and constraints. Then we were split into our impact areas, and I believe it was the second term and the beginning of the third term that we worked on our interventions. So second term, we fully planned them, we did them over the summer, and then beginning of third term, we wrote our reports. And then after that, we did the collaborative for the rest of the year. It took a whole lot of planning, and I think out of my whole team, I was I was the second to last to properly figure out what I wanted to do, 'cause I'm also quite an indecisive person, it seems. And I kept jumping between ideas. I was like, oh, I wanna do this way. Maybe it was, it was a lot to plan. I did a lot of interviewing with people back home to see, 'cause I really wanted not just to tick a box for the course. I wanted my project to actually hopefully make a difference here in Sri Lanka. And the teachers were incredible. We all have our own impact area teacher. Who, they don't like spoon-feed us, they more guide us and give us suggestions and help us when we ask for it. But for the most part, we are able to do our own research. They'll give us tips and things to focus on, and then we have, yeah, meetings with them to discuss. My intervention didn't go how I planned, and I think that was an incredible experience. Right in the beginning, we did this thing called Safe to Fail experiment. So we have to just do a project with a random group of people in our STP class just so that we know that it's okay to fail and, you know, you bounce back and you adjust. And that really applied in what I was doing because at first I wanted to do a round table discussion with different stakeholders within the food system in Sri Lanka. And I had made a whole presentation. I had got confirmations from 6 people. I was super excited to do it. And then I joined the call and one person showed up.

Oh no.

I was really disappointed. I had one of the people who's an activist, who's incredible, text me later and said, oh, I'm so sorry, I was in the jungle saving elephants. And I was like, yeah, okay, that makes sense, because he's very active in that field. And it was just very hard to coordinate. And, and I put this in my report, was I made my success reliant on external stakeholders which I couldn't control. So then because of that, I shifted my project and I was like, okay, I'm gonna do individual meetings and then extrapolate the key information that I need. So that was really interesting. But looking back on it now that I've finished it and looking at other people's interventions, I think I could have done something a bit different. I think that was me potentially staying a bit within my comfort zone cuz I've, I obviously with my activism before I had joined ACI, I had done a lot of interviews and hosted webinars and stuff because that was what I was used to. So I think I had thought that I could do this, but now looking back and moving forward, I've started looking at other avenues to make change and spread awareness. And now I've started noticing that I've been coming up with those a bit better than I used to. As part of my internship at Doctors Without Borders at the moment, we were discussing a campaign for the Rohingyas, for example. And we were all talking and we were like, oh, we should do like a cookbook with different Rohingya recipes and the stories behind them. And like, that's the kind of stuff that STP pushes. Yeah, interesting.

No, that's great. And then maybe if we could finish on this.

Yeah.

One of the things I'm particularly curious about is what kinds of things could you see in, in relation to other contexts that might end up hosting the Systems Transformation Pathway? Yeah. How might it take shape in, in public systems or in, in other systems where just maybe there are just more resource constraints or challenges?

I'm just thinking in the context of Sri Lanka, for example. Yeah, it's very different from Wales. We've got a whole different ecosystem, a whole different food system. But one of the big stresses was localization. And I think that can be applied in almost any context. So for Sri Lanka, for example, localized eating is already a huge thing. So we do localized and seasonal eating. And so I think that can be brought up in the food systems. Then, um, migration is an interesting one here because we send a lot of our workers outside of the country, whereas I know migration in the context of Wales is talking about people coming into the country. So that would be shaped differently. I do think, and I know they were talking about bringing water as one of the impact areas. I feel like in climate risk zones, it should be an impact area in itself and potentially health in relation to the climate.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Obviously I don't know how teachers would adapt to working towards it. So there are some teachers who would for sure be on board. But then I also had teachers who, when I approached them with my supermarket plastic bag petition, was like, oh, what do you expect me to do without plastic bags? So it's a very polarized situation and context. And I think as developing nations, yeah, I don't know if that plays a role in how forward-thinking it is.

Interesting to hear.

Yeah, but I do think it's, it's also, I have to speak to the fact that I think there's a sense of not privilege, but in the UK, for example, as I said, developed nation, they've, they're able to move on. I don't know if it's Eurocentric or just very, the system is very tricky to deal with. Like in Sri Lanka, we have just come out of an economic crisis. We're currently wrapped around the finger of the IMF. We've got a lot of our own, like, problems to deal with. And so I think in terms of focus on priorities, I think that really plays a role. And obviously all countries have their own issues, but in terms of education system, I think at the moment we're trying to sort out our weather and sorting out the debt that our country's in and all of the issues that we are facing. So yeah, that might be one of the reasons why it's not as quick. I wish we were in the position to fully focus on education and drive that forward. And if there were enough actors doing so, I think it could be a possibility. But I think, I mean, it's like I was talking about, like the fact that the system's so interlinked, it's like, oh, but if you fix the education, then you'll move on and, and it'll, it'll work in that way, but it's just so intertwined. And I think one thing that my family really follows, it's been big part of my core values, is I am in a position where I can focus on these things and I can use my voice and I should do so. There are people who are trying to think of their next meal. They don't have time or energy to be able to speak up or prioritize such things. So when I'm in this position, I should use my voice to speak up and try my best to make any difference possible.

We hope you've enjoyed this episode. Please feel free to continue the dialogues with our guests, with us at Good Impact Labs, on our blog or on social media, or within your own networks.