A New Paradigm for Lifelong Learning - A Conversation with Christopher Pommerening and Stephen Harris

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

This is really the message, is that everybody that has been hoping or waiting for change, transformation, complete revamp, whatever you want to call it, it's happening now. And that is basically this call to action. It's very important. It's a call to action. It's not the call to continue talking.

Welcome back to the podcast.

Wow, there is such a buzz around these guys at the moment with their Relearn conference coming up on November 9th. It was a huge pleasure to speak with Christopher Pomerenning and Stephen Harris of LearnLife. Christopher Pomerenning is the founder and chief empowerment officer at LearnLife. He has evolved from an internet entrepreneur and venture capitalist into a high-impact entrepreneur on a mission to change education positively worldwide. Christopher started his professional career in Spain in 1998 when he co-founded Autoscout24, then in 2002 founded the venture capital company Active Venture Partners. Since then, he has founded 10 companies and organizations and invested in more than 30 startups. But now, since 2017, he's working on his once-in-a-lifetime adventure to change the world's learning landscape. Stephen Harris is the Chief Learning Officer at LearnLife after 40 years working as an innovation as an innovative educator within existing systems, both government and independent, Stephen has now chosen to work outside but alongside traditional education. For almost 20 years, Stephen was the principal of Northern Beaches Christian School, and it was here that he founded the Sydney Centre for Innovation in Learning. Stephen also works with collaborators in Rwanda, where he's setting up the LearnLife Hub in Kigali.

Hi Chris, how are you doing?

Alright, I'm super.

Hi Stephen, how are you?

I'm fine, thank you.

Great. I'd love to start with the vision of LearnLife, which is just a phenomenal statement, and I'd love to just read it before I come to you about where this has come from. But what you're saying is that by 2030, we aim to empower 100 million learners 5 million educators, 100,000 schools, and governments of 196 countries through a new learner-centered paradigm. Now that's a hell of a statement. It's just awesome. So I would love to hear a bit more about what gives you the purpose yourself in terms of that vision, but, and also maybe a bit of a background of how has that arisen.

Thank you, Tim Logan, first of all, for your kind invitation. And I think, you know, it's, it's very simple. That's when my wife and I, we turned parents. That's when this whole purpose bubbled up. So we have now 3 children. Luca is 9, Jona is 7, and little Mila is turning 2 next month. And basically had our first 2 boys after a couple of years. The first question arises, what kind of kindergarten would there be? And we already, I mean, being from Germany, living in Spain, you know, based in Catalonia, I mean, there were already 3 systems that we were seeing, and they were profoundly different. So much difference between kindergartens in Germany, multi-age groups versus boxed-in, aged, already learning, you know, numeracy and reading and writing at the age of 4 years in the Spanish system. So what's all this about? And then we start to research and look into education systems, and that was a 2015. And we basically just got very frustrated and sad about the state of the situation. And we were on a trip in Asia. And I just thought to myself, my whole life I dedicate to entrepreneurship and building up projects and organizations with wonderful missions, some of them changing positively entire industries. And here I am now a father. And I just wondered, what will my kids tell me in 10 years saying, well, you know, you are moving so many things and what have you done actually to help us or to help these children to experience a different form of learning? And that was, I think, the initial purpose. Going then much deeper into this whole point. Well, you look right now, we have 1.5 billion children in schools around the world. And I think what we have to realize, everybody, not only in the education field, but everybody, every parent, every person in this world is that right now we are building the biggest dead end for these 1.6 billion kids because standardizing them for the next 10 years, they will come out, out of any education system around the world and go into a world where every machine, every artificial intelligence will be more powerful in automizing and standardizing what they have been learning. So if they don't get into a world where their creativity, their self-directed learning is in the center point, they won't understand this world anymore. So we have COVID now, then climate change is right above that. But the biggest humanitarian problem is created by us. So I think that's the biggest purpose for us.

Let's do something about it. Very nice. Yeah. And who was involved in that in the early stages?

Yeah. So the early stages, I mean, was about research and basically understanding what is happening around the world. What are these amazing innovative schools that already exist? And, you know, we started to to analyze them. We started to travel, you know, together with some friends. One of the first very interesting moments was to get to know Alfredo Hernando, a Spanish innovator in the learning and education field who wrote a book about the 50 innovative schools around the world. So we basically teamed up and exchanged a lot of the research. And then many of my supporters and friends out of the education world we're always pointing towards Australia, to Sydney. That was to Stephen and to what he has been building up with the innovative school settings that he was dealing with. And then I think it was 2016 that we actually physically met for the first time in Barcelona. And yeah, that was a wonderful first, very impressive meeting where we shared our visions and they were so aligned. And yeah.

Yeah. Brilliant. I wanted to ask you a bit about, because that's such an incredible opportunity to travel the world and see all these different examples of amazing innovative education in different settings. I mean, that's a huge part of building the vision is seeing the reality of things happening in practice. From what I've seen, you went literally everywhere to find these places. So what stands out particularly for you in terms of some profound moments of insight or just incredible things that you saw there?

For me, I mean, I will pass over to Steven because he traveled the world and schools much more even than I did. But I can only say this: the one thing that struck me in all this gathering of data and best practices was that by looking through a bit more than 100 innovative schools around the world, by now 27 different learning methodologies are already used in all kinds of different settings. And so here we are, 150 years in a standardized system, everything is about cognitive learning, but there we are on the other side, completely fragmented, nobody knows about it and so on. There are 27 different methodologies that any learner could actually learn on. So if we would just spend a bit of effort to understand each learner, we could actually create a world of learning methodologies that are perfectly connected to each learner individually. And for me, that was basically where I just knew, okay, we are up to something very important and it's not that difficult to understand what is basically an old paradigm towards a new paradigm. Yeah.

I had the opportunity as a school leader to use I guess a very supportive board edict to say to me that they were very happy for me to travel around the world and to find what I thought were the best practices. And they gave me one stipulation at the time, and that was that I should always not travel alone. So I guess having the freedom to observe and to evaluate and then ultimately to vision, that was very interesting because it led me down multiple paths simultaneously. I did finish up my PhD thesis on that very topic, the power of collective envisioning to create sustained change in education. And I guess I'm a big believer that seeing a whole range of different models of school, whether they're positive or negative, it's the conversations around that that actually help sharpen the vision going through. And so that during that journey, it was everything from seeing online schools from the middle 2000s. It's quite interesting to find people now who can't believe that there were fully online schools from 2005, 2006, but they were. Through to you know, schools that were nature-based learning, play-based learning, going up to Finland, different places. And that journey helped sharpen my understanding of, to a degree, it's just a question about doing things rather than thinking about them. And that really came to a fore for me in Iceland when I met the guy who worked in the Ministry of Education and a professor of IT there. And there was a really big, long Icelandic word, which I could of course not read. And I said, what does it mean? And the guy smiled and said, do, then think. And then that became my motto because I think I recognize that in education, one of the things that stops innovation is that people want— I mean, they intuitively know what they should be doing. And just as Christopher mentioned with the methodologies, they know that there's a whole range of different things that they could be doing, but they resort back to the traditional or the need to prototype or do something cautiously. Education's not like that. You just have to run with the intuition. You know, the theory and the research and say, we make it work. And I guess to a degree, that's what has happened with LearnLife is that, that combination of knowing best practice around the world, aggregating that background knowledge of neuroscience. And I guess to a degree, that's how LearnLife in Barcelona has started, that it's, it's a project where the team that have come together have been confident to enact their beliefs. Brilliant.

Yeah. It's so interesting what you're saying about the fragmentation, because so many of these ideas have been around, you know, your 27 methodology, they've been around for so many years, right? And some passionate advocates here and there, but there's so much fragmentation. And actually one of the things I like is you talk about yourself being an aggregator or a connector, trying to bring things together. Maybe you could say a little bit about that. Obviously you've got the hub there in Barcelona, and then, but how are you kind of envisioning bringing other people into that in terms of connecting and aggregating to scale the concepts?

So in my experience, coming from a more online internet kind of world, which, you know, my last 20 years was all about. I learned something very interesting again, together with my wife, because she was building up in 2010 a digital platform to help entrepreneurs to connect with all the different stakeholders around the ecosystem of entrepreneurship. So be it, you know, advisors or investors or co-founders or whatever. And the interesting bit is that that project had its difficulty actually together with a group of Founders in Barcelona, we created an association and created a physical hub for entrepreneurship. And that was about 5 years ago. And then funnily enough, just having a pure building in the middle of Barcelona, the entire ecosystem of entrepreneurship, all the big corporates, investors, the government, whoever you have suddenly came together and said, okay, here it is. Here's the center point, the melting pot, the go-to place for entrepreneurship in a city. And that was very interesting just as an understanding of strategy because suddenly everybody's talking about edtech and, you know, it's going to be the disruptor of, you know, the future of school and so on and so on. And we just don't believe that that's the first most important thing. And we actually know that to entirely change positively education, you need a physical statement, a showroom, a showplace of the future of learning. And that needs to be very physical. So that's why the Learning Innovation Hubs came into play as a starting point. And it's basically the embodiment of connecting the regional or local ecosystem of around learning innovation. And that's basically how we see LearnLife to be this supporter, aggregator, obviously of best practices from around the world, and then connector on a very local or regional or national basis. And maybe that's something interesting because we're speaking now with you. I mean, you're in France, in Bordeaux, but you are like this typical person, you know, that is already a leader, a champion within your own ecosystem for learning innovation. And we are just actually in these days, we are launching with several people around the world. Before a hub actually gets established, you normally already start to create the ecosystem in a preparation form. So what we came up with is that there are people which we called the learning ecosystem architects and designers. So we are right now building a network of leads around the world that are the champions to actually, you know, make change happen. And hopefully eventually will be promoting or founding or co-founding learning innovation hubs in their regions. So this is an open invitation to you to become a lead for France, for Bordeaux, or for any region that you like.

Yeah, that's wonderful because it's such an important part, isn't it? Preparing the cultural context and the ecosystem and designing it in a really intentional way. So I love that idea. But then also ultimately, I mean, with all this online learning with corona, for me, fundamentally education is a human endeavor, right? Like it's, it's about connecting. And so much of that comes in a, in a physical space, whatever that space is outside, inside, wherever, but you know, that interaction is, where some of the sparks happen. So just to then shift onto your paradigm, because again, that's just a phenomenal piece of work. You know, I've been spending lots of time going through all of the work that's been done there. I mean, it's just a really comprehensive overview of the preparation, as you're talking about, of an ecosystem, and then the establishment, and then the consolidation of a learning concept and space. And maybe you could just Stephen, just take us through a little bit about the actual learning paradigm itself and what was your intention in the creation of that and how do you imagine that people will engage with that?

Yeah. I mean, the first thing is that behind the paradigm is the belief that the current education systems of the world have profoundly failed. You know, that if you don't actually deeply understand that and recognize that, you know, the shelf life has passed, you know, I watch places where they tinker at the edges and they might improve something temporarily, but it's, that there is a fundamental failure in the current education system. So the Paradigm was, I guess, intended to help people move from that perspective of despair into something fairly rapidly, into something that provided them with a hopeful journey and a way through it. And the answers have always been there. It's just that, you know, you don't improve the learning opportunities for kids by putting more exams in. I mean, regrettably, Spain's answer to learning is to give more homework, and they have the highest level of homework in Europe going through. That's, that's not going to help a child become a learner. Different governments try different strategies and, and national testing, standardized testing, all of those things have been the hallmark of the last 30 years where people have tried to improve something and they've never been able to define that other than its marks or grades, which are always so subjective when it comes down to it. I mean, if there's anything about the pandemic this year, it has exposed how subjective grading and marking is. So the paradigm itself, I guess, comes out of the notion that there is a way through it. And for us, it starts with the culture, the purpose, the vision, the values. And so as I thought through, how do you encourage people to implement a change? They've got to spend the time on that first sort of segment of what we've written down. But we're not saying that everyone actually has to follow it like a textbook, going through it all. But hopefully, as they read through, they might become aware of areas that they have not paid sufficient attention to, because I can remember back at my previous school in Sydney, we were trying to shape the culture of learning. So it became a more overt culture that you could see visibly around the place. And as I thought through, you know, the kids were coming into school every day and they had seen advertisements already for a whole myriad of things in their head. They had these cultures of surfing, soccer, sex, whatever else had been in their experience in the previous 24 hours. We didn't want to say that was wrong. But we wanted a learning culture to be stronger. And so you've got to shape it. You've got to actually grow it. And I think there's a lot of people who try to do something new and different, but they haven't addressed that, both the individual culture and also the collective culture. So that's a key part to implementing the paradigm is the preparation phase beforehand. And then you've got the additional parts of getting the workforce able to cope in different ways.

Yeah, there's something interesting there and what you said about not using it as a textbook, right? Because one of the ironies, I guess, and I had the same conversation with Peter Mott recently about Accreditation Protocol, is the idea of trying to shift and change something, but then replace it with something which is a, a recipe of the next standardized model, right? So I guess, are you intending that the paradigm will be very personalizable to context and people can engage with the bits that resonate with them and the bits that seem to apply in their context in a much more philosophically aligned way.

Yeah, totally. I view the world from a completely random perspective, as Christopher knows very well, and can get sidetracked immediately. So I will never follow a textbook straight through. If I'm following a recipe and start off with pumpkin soup, it will finish up being radish or something else completely different. So for me, it's not about following a set of plans. It's exactly as you've said, it's actually looking for prompts for your own thinking to see what's our deficit, what do we need to focus on. I guess one of the things that is massive around the world is that the entire teaching workforce, even with the universities that talk about collaborative thinking, critical thinking, and a whole range like that, they still will have a supervisor in the classroom with one teacher and say, can you manage the class or not? You know, that when it comes down to it, that's what they're doing. And until we collectively develop workforce capabilities to be working collaboratively and be thinking quite differently about how learning works, we're not going to make those changes. And so therefore we have to enable people to be creative in their own responses. So the Paradigm is all about that. It's about unleashing people's, I guess, inner intuition and creativity to bring learning alive. I mean, you were talking beforehand about online learning and the remote learning from the pandemic and missing the connections. I mean, one of the questions I've been talking about today with a group from both New Zealand and Australia, two different conversations I've had, was, okay, I want to start thinking about remote learning not from the deficit of saying, will our kids get good marks or good grades, because that, that constrains the entire process. You've got to start off by saying, how do we maximize connections in an online remote community. You've got to start with that connection point and then move to learning, otherwise you'll always finish up going back to a traditional thinking.

Yeah, maybe to just add to the whole idea of coming from one boxed-in standardized system and building kind of the next one, I think this is like why we did spend so much time on research and looking into history, right? Because if you look into the history, we had already amazing projects and amazing people building new versions of educational learning, right? We can go into the Montessoris, the Rudolf Steiners, and the likes. We looked into what happened in 110 years of existence of these, because I think both of them were coming from 1909 or so in their creation year. But what happened is they had amazing ideas and concepts, but again, it was a boxed-in model, right? So if you want to have a Montessori school, it is a very clear framework and structure around it. So we believe that if you look into the numbers of what needs to be changed and looking into just schools, not even taking universities in consideration or other learning institutions, we're talking about more than 2 million schools around the world. So we can only provide an open, flexible, plug-and-play universe of learning innovation elements, which then basically connects to each setting individually. But we never should be doing again a boxed-in system where people say, okay, you have to do this or you're basically out. This is not how we can empower the entire world every educator, every school leader, every education leader in this world to actually create a new project for her or himself.

Yeah. I mean, it's a whole different way of thinking about providing the next networked.

Yeah.

It's a different approach to maybe just to speak because you mentioned our paradigm. This is very important. It's not our paradigm. It is the paradigm of everybody. And it's, I think one of the fundamental design principles is is that there's a starting group of people that have basically proposed a certain starting point for the future of learning, but it is co-created and it will be much more co-created in the future. So right now, these are hundreds of people around the world that are engaging in conversations and discussions in proposing new parts of the element. And this is basically an invitation that this will be probably thousands of people in the future. This is not one person anymore, right? This is not a Christopher paradigm, a Stephen paradigm, a Tim paradigm or whatever. This is 2020. And we are building something for the future. This is built together because no one of us could basically say, how does this paradigm actually beautifully grow in a completely different cultural setting on the other side of the world? Right. So, you know, no one of us could say, how would this work in South America or in the middle of Asia? So it needs to be embraced by people around the world and created from there on.

Amazing. Absolutely. It's like the myth of the lone genius that we're still a bit enamored by the idea that one person, one brain can come up with a sufficiently complex solution to fundamentally now complex problems. It's just, it's not gonna happen. Right. But takes me onto this. My, my next question I wanted to ask you about an interaction that Christopher and I had on LinkedIn about curriculum. There's an interesting question about the role of curriculum in this new paradigm. And I just, one of the things that Christopher said was that the curriculum implies instruction and therefore is a barrier to self-directed and self-determined learning. So maybe, Christopher, you know, I'd love to get into that a little bit in terms of, in this kind of VUCA world, do we need a curriculum? What's the role of curriculum? Because obviously We love a good curriculum, right? We like it boxed off and then we can roll it out with pacing guides and all of this very standardized process. So clearly there's an extreme end of standardizing, but what, you know, where do you see the role of some sense of a route map or a landscape map as a curriculum for LearnLife?

Well, I think it's the question that we have to ask ourselves. First of all, what does the future bring? Can anybody answer that? Because if there's somebody that can answer how the future will look like, well, then you can build the curriculum, right? But I guess we come to the conclusion that, I mean, nobody knows how the next 10, 20, 30 years will look like. So what do we think about ourselves that we think that we can be able to build a curriculum for something that is unknown, which is, you know, a VUCA world. So I think that is a Big question that every curriculum designer should ask themselves. Probably your coffee machine has a better mathematical power than you today, right?

I mean, there's a statement. Yeah, I love it.

Yeah, well, that's just the fact, you know. I mean, you can go around your household and probably every dumb machine is a better calculator than yourself. So if you just think about this going forward in the next 10 years, you just have to say, okay, what these, these kids, or these— everybody, I mean, we can include the 7.7 billion people in this world. Everybody needs to learn how to learn. Everybody needs to be a self-directed learner because it's the only way that you find purpose in this world, in this future, whatever this future looks like. So a curriculum will always instruct you to go somewhere where probably your purpose is not really centered in. And that's just, I think, more like an open question to everybody in this world to ask themselves whether they can take that responsibility and say, yes, I feel good about this because I know exactly where these kids need to go. That's my, my challenge.

I mean, what, what would a co-created curriculum look like? Because what I'm hearing maybe from you is, is about individual self-directed learning and perhaps an individual somehow planning and directing their own curriculum. Let's say, if you want to use that terminology, or it's just that they're following their path and their journey in terms of learning. I sometimes have a little bit of an issue with the individualization of that, because as we've been talking about the idea of co-creation and collective responsibility and responding to complex challenges, I'd love to explore that idea of, you know, how could we co-create a curriculum in an adaptive way? And sure, not in a way that's fixed for the next 30 years because we know what's coming, but But I don't know. I don't have an answer to that. I just, I think there's an open question there as well about how can we make it perhaps more collective as an endeavor rather than just lots of individuals following their own individual passions and desires. Stephen, you wanted to comment on that?

I think you've got to have a series of frameworks or scaffolds that you're working with mentally as you work with a learner. Now, I guess the other thing there is a learner isn't like a standard product where they're at the same level of competence in every aspect of their life. You know, if I talked about my competence in English, compared to my competence in Spanish or French. It's very, very different. So, so therefore the scaffolds around my learning for those need to be different. So when we talk about co-creating a curriculum for a learner, then we, we need to be, first of all, recognizing that they will be at different places depending on their passions, their interests, their past background knowledge, and different things as well. It was interesting, 12 months ago, we sat down to work out how did we marry concepts, competence, knowledge, cognition, with things like coping with change, the complexity of the world. When I wrote that list of about 5 or 6 things, I had no idea that within 12 months the pandemic was going to happen. And yet, you know, what would be different if you talked about being in Tanzania, and I've worked in Rwanda beforehand, you know, you've got whole education systems which have shut down for 6 months because it was entirely teacher at the front with the curriculum. What would have happened if those same systems had taught resilience, initiative, and creativity from 5-year-olds upwards when they were then thrown for 6 months out into their own devices is that you may have actually had people who were capable of creating their own curriculum in their own little village because they actually had been trained in those even deeper skills that were necessary. So I think the curriculum, as you talk about co-creating it, going through is The learning guide has to have probably an awareness, are there deficit gaps in a child's knowledge? Well, if so, that's fine. I've got no problem with direct instruction if someone wants me to help them learn something, but then I've also got to know them enough to know what's going to spark them. I mean, I'm working with a remote learner at the moment, and I was trying to find what was the key to going deeper with him beyond the level of his skating and surfing passions and stuff. Well, it turns out it's poverty. You know, and so therefore the teacher part of me panics and says, what do I need to give him? The learning guide part of me says, no, I've actually got to get him to now work out where has he seen poverty in his life and what does he want to do about it? And then we start finding what's useful for him to start learning. So I guess we've got to resist that temptation to give them this curriculum and say, this is what you'll need to be able to understand this issue, as opposed to give them the skills to know how do they fish for themselves? You know, how do they find out the relevant relevant information, because it's out of that, that they're likely to then come up with their own challenge that will help drive them forward. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess for me, one of the things is that kind of metacognitive awareness of, of a domain or a landscape. I mean, you don't know what you don't know, whether it's procedural knowledge or declarative knowledge or whatever, but there's something around external supports to, to, as you, I mean, the phrase learning guide is a nice one because you you have someone with you guiding your learning and who perhaps has a better understanding of the landscape.

An understanding both of the landscape, but also the person, because ultimately it's got to come from that person. And I guess that's where, for me, we should be moving beyond personalizing to the personal. We actually want the self-determined learner to be able to know this is actually what I need to learn, you know, and it's not a risky process. It's just a process of patience.

So just lastly then, I've been hearing this phrase quite a lot saying, "If not now, then when?" And just because obviously there's a lot of reflection going on around COVID and post-COVID and what that means. And you've mentioned it already in terms of this is an opportunity, but what are your current hopes and plans? But also then you've got the, the Relearn Festival coming up. The 9th to the 13th of November. That seems to be a big positive coming together to then launch some future developments.

So yeah, I think, you know, the hashtag that we start to use a lot is #OurTimeIsNow. So we don't even question if it's not now and so on. It's no, it's now. It is full stop. I mean, you know, it's now end of story. Uh, and I think this is really the message. It's the message that everybody that has been hoping or waiting for change, transformation, complete revamp, whatever you want to call it, it's happening now. And that is basically this call to action. It's very important. It's a call to action. It's not a call to continue talking. Everybody has to act now and not to continue talk and conversation. That's why relearn, the Learning Innovation Festival is our our proposal to the world to find a place during a whole week where learning innovators from around the world come together, they connect, they get to know each other. They see actually that this is not a small movement. These are thousands and thousands of people around the world that are thinking alike and that are the change leaders going forward. And yes, there are some keynote speeches, which is inspirational and it is on purpose. But the essence of the festival are workshops. And these workshops are clearly hands-on, action-driven implementation strategies for people in different parts of the world to basically take learning innovations that are proven, that are evidence-based, and that can be implemented in current settings around the world. So it's really about this. It's very, it's collaborative. I mean, we basically made not only an open call for speakers, which I think actually right just now, it just closed this at 12 o'clock today. And I think we had close to 200 speakers from around the world sending in proposals, which shows the, just the enormous drive that exists. But it's also, this is not a festival again, that is just created by us, by our team. It is co-created. I think today we have already 4, 5, 6 organizations, other event creators, other event founders that are co-hosts of this event. And it shows again, the essence. It's not about anymore, you know, one organization or the other doing one thing by themselves. It's about inviting everybody to make something that is so much more meaningful, much more impactful than any one individually of us. It's this transformation from an ego system and an ego society to a we-go future. Right. And, and I think these are some of the core principles and our core giveaways for what Relearn is all about.

Fantastic. Stephen, did you want to—

From a, from a person who's come through the system and who's now in a different context, if you're not prepared to make the change, If you don't change now, you never will. I think one of the most encouraging things I ever heard was an almost retired teacher came to visit the school in Sydney as part of a collective envisioning process. This person, this lady, had 3 weeks to go before she retired. We got this message sent to us on the Monday morning, it was Friday afternoon, and said that when she got off the bus, she dragged all of the furniture out of her classroom. She said, "If I can't change now, I never will." You know, we have to take the action. Again, it's our choice if we avoid change and it's as simple as that.

Yeah, that's brilliant. Lovely. Well, thank you. I mean, it's definitely a call to action, but it's also good to talk sometimes, but we can't only talk. So, but it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you guys and hear a bit more about Landlife and the exciting things that are happening. And I would personally absolutely love to continue the conversation and see how we can keep building it. And I know there's thousands and thousands of people around the world feeling the same in terms of the excitement about what might come from this.

There's also, let's say, a talk and conversation, but every conversation can end up in an action. And therefore, I think our clear call to action would always be everybody can access the learning paradigm at any moment of time, it's there, it's a starting point. Everybody in the world can find their tribe in their region or in their city. So going out and see who are the other learning innovators and start to connect in between each other because together it's much more powerful to actually start this change. Third one is people can become what we call learning ecosystem architects and designers for different cities, regions, and countries. So they can reach out if they want to, you know, be more engaged on that topic. And then the last one is every school leader in the world or any entrepreneur in the world, any teacher that wants to create the future of learning can actually create a learning hub in any form or setting outdoors in a very small pop-up version or in a very large newly built complex or whatever.. So they are very concrete steps that everybody can take, and that would be my thank you to you for the invitation, and hope to see you soon.

Fantastic, thank you so much. Thank you, Christopher.

Thank you, Steven.

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