Cultural Intelligence in our Schools - A Conversation with Julia Middleton

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

You recruit people who are so different and then spend an inordinate amount of time trying to make them all the same, which is quite extraordinary and absolute madness. So cultural intelligence to me is the ability to work with people and lead people, I hope, who are different from you.

Hi everyone, it's great you could join me again for another episode of the Future Learning Design Podcast with me, Tim Logan. On this week's episode, I'm speaking with Julia Middleton, who is passionate about helping people from all backgrounds to develop as leaders and make an active and tangible contribution to their communities and to wider society. Julia is the author of two bestselling books, Beyond Authority: Leadership in a Changing World and Cultural Intelligence: The Competitive Edge for Leaders Crossing Boundaries. In the summer of 1989, Julia founded Common Purpose, which has grown to be one of the biggest leadership development organizations in the world. Julia stepped down from the position of chief executive in 2019. In April 2020, Julia launched Women Emerging from Isolation, which she now leads. And Julia is also a member of the advisory group of Common Purpose in Pakistan and is a patron for Common Purpose of the Europe 101 initiative. She is on the board and chairs the investment committee of Alfanaah, delivering venture philanthropy in the Arab world. She is on the international Advisory Council for Fundação Dom Cabral, a business school in Brazil. She is Senior Fellow of Babson College, a trustee of the REN Project, and is a goodwill ambassador for the Aurora Forum.

Hi there.

Hi, how are you?

Extremely good.

Lovely. I'm so happy to be able to talk to you. It's brilliant. It's a recent discovery of your work on cultural intelligence, which was just a huge kind of addition to my world in terms of teaching and education. There are huge numbers of schools out there who talk about these ideas of global citizenship, intercultural competency, and international mindedness is the big one within the IB. So a lot of the IB schools that I work with, but there's often quite a lot of lack of clarity, let's say, around exactly what those things mean in terms of ultimately translating those into outcomes for young people and building specific competencies with young people. And then I found cultural intelligence and I just thought, yes, why didn't I know about this before? So I'm happy to hopefully be able to spread the word more widely, but first off, if I could invite you, it'd be great just to say a bit about cultural intelligence as a background, but then how might that attach to some of those bigger terms like global citizenship that we can really work with to build those capacities in young people?

So my entire childhood, of my entire education was in international schools. I'm now 63, and I would argue that for the last 40 years, I have always been able to spot other people who went to international schools as I have toured the world. And some of the biggest partnerships I've done are with people where, you know, we've agreed how we're going to work together, and then I say, by the way, where'd you go to school? And they say, oh, Atlantic College, or Singapore UWC or the French lycée in somewhere or other. And you can spot them a mile away. Now, what is it that you can spot? I don't know, but I think I put it down to through the whole of my education, there was never a majority in the classroom. If there had been, I wouldn't have been in it, but there was no majority in the classroom. There was merely a mixture of different people. And when I say that, I mean geographically different, but also, as we know, in international schools in many cases, it's the kids of somebody who runs the takeaway shop at the end of the road and the person who runs, you know, the United Nations locally, whatever. So there is a tremendous mixture. Now, there's also a commonality. They have, they're sort of more global citizens already and things like that, but the fact is that there was no majority. And when I meet other people, and indeed when I married my husband, one of the things I really had to get used to is that when he meets a new person, he sort of slots them into some sort of mental map that he's got of people who are different from him. Now, for me, everybody's different, and the only thing that terrifies me is if you put me into a situation where there's a majority. So for me, The very presence of international schools, the fact that international schools inevitably have this heterogeneous characteristic means that you've already started people big time down their cultural intelligence journey. Having said that, over the last years, I've also done lots of speeches at international schools.

Yeah.

And been hugely disappointed that, you know, you recruit people who are so different and then spend an inordinate amount of time trying to make them all the same. Exactly. Which is quite extraordinary and absolute, to my mind, madness. So cultural intelligence to me is the ability to work with people and potentially, inevitably, lead people, I hope, who are different from you. Different from you in many different ways. And it's not just to survive in difference, but to thrive in difference, to enjoy difference. To find it exciting to be the kind of person who does not regard your own culture as the benchmark against which you judge all other cultures. Yeah?

Yeah.

So I think international schools have a huge edge and it's an edge they're completely squandering. Now some aren't, but most of them frankly in my mind are. And they're leaving it to random luckiness And to some extent, random luckiness that you have the kind of teacher who's going to be able to try and make something work. You know, I wrote the Cultural Intelligence book not with international schools in mind, but with lots of organizations in mind that have this difference, but then trying to make everybody the same. I remember doing the speech for a very large corporate, one of the biggest in the world, And they asked me to go and meet and do a talk for the new graduates who were sort of one year in. And I remember walking up on stage and looking out at a sea of faces and they all looked exactly the same. I mean, literally, they all looked exactly the same. And I behaved in my usual rather rude fashion and said, you know, this is so grim. I'm going to talk, but this is pretty grim. And I remember coming off and thinking, that organization is not going to invite me back. But to my amazement, a few years later, they did invite me back. And I walked up on the stage and it was a sea of extraordinary faces from all over the world.

Very good.

Men and women, all, I mean, extraordinary. And then I did my talk and we got to the questions and they were all the same, exactly the same questions.

Interesting.

I could, you know, they'd all got the same t-shirts on, they'd all got the same basketball hats on, and they were all the same. So cultural intelligence, to me, I wrote as something that I believe that some leaders have got, the ability to work with people who are not like themselves, and to try and produce an approach that would help people to do two things. One, to understand other cultures, and the second is to discover and understand their own culture.

Which is—

and the second is often the more difficult one.

Yeah.

And to my mind, it needed both an approach, but it also needed the language so that inevitably you could have difficult conversations without getting into a mess. Because most people take one step backwards when there's a difficult conversation about culture to be had, and you need more people who will step forward who see the fact that they are not like everybody else as their strength, not their weakness, and can therefore engage in other cultures. So cultural intelligence was— and I hate to use the word model because I spent my whole life rejecting models— but, you know, it's a model where you take what you can out of it, particularly the language, and it helps you to work with people who are not like you, but fundamentally not to regard your own culture as the benchmark.

Yeah, no. And one of the things that strikes me there is I would totally agree with what you say about international schools in the sense that there's sometimes, not always, but sometimes a complacency that the international mindedness, the intercultural competency, whatever you want to call it, just emerges out of the fact of diversity. And rather than it being a more intentional kind of experience that we guide students through, to try and build some of those competencies. I don't know.

Would you agree? Tim, I think you're being too kind, frankly. I think that it's a sort of close my eyes, hold my nose and hope it's happening. And don't, for heaven's sake, go out into the main square or in the middle of your school, because if you go and walk the job and you go and wander around your school, you can see that it's not happening.

Yeah.

You can feel that it's not happening. 'But you go back into your room and just pray it somehow by osmosis it'll happen.' Now remember that the forces to divide people up and get them all into the little ghettos are enormous all over the world. So, you know, it's going to take something much, much, much more intentional. And it has to be said, of course, it's not just intentional with the young people that you're teaching, it's intentional with your own staff.

Absolutely.

And All you have to do is go to the staff room and sit there and you sort of think, what is going on here? Yeah, either because you have an immensely diverse group of students but not a particularly diverse group of teachers, or they've all used— learnt a language that sort of avoids anything that looks difficult.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's true. But, but on that, I— that's one of the things I thought was brilliant about cultural intelligence was that it provided a more specific language that you might start to talk with and think with. And so perhaps if— could you say a little bit about that idea of core and flex? Because I think that is such a great idea about the way that we can articulate some of these things.

Well, core and flex wasn't my idea. It was the result of a journey going to meet people who I thought had more cultural intelligence than most of us, and certainly more than I did. And it seemed to me that the common element of people who had more cultural intelligence is that they had figured out this thing called their core and their flex. So their core being all the bits of them that are them, that if they stop doing it or believing in it or saying it or in any way dropped it, they would no longer be them, right?

Yeah.

Core. And then there's the flex. And the flex is all the stuff that they had decided to be flexible about that wasn't core to them. It was— they were deliberately flex about it. Now just go back. Core, lots of people say to me, oh, you mean values and beliefs. And I say, yeah, of course, value and beliefs, but actually really practical things. How you greet people, what you say, how you look at people, your habits, your behaviors, your mannerisms, all of those are core. It's much more than just Sorry, more than just beliefs and values. And then flex, the other thing is people sort of say to me, oh, it's all the stuff you haven't made your mind up about. And the answer is no, no, no, no, no, no, you're quite wrong here. I have made my mind up about it. I've decided to be flexible about it. And actually your flex is an important part of your culture as your core is, right? The stronger your core, the more people trust you. The more flexible your flex is, the more people trust you. Now let me give you the two extremes.

Yeah.

And then come back to that for a second. So the two extremes are that you are all core and no flex.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And I always, as I, as you, I think you know, I associate that with my grandparents. They came from the north of England. Yeah. They took the view that if everybody in their street thought like them, there wouldn't be a problem. I love them dearly, but you couldn't let them outside the front door. And it's actually quite, a compliment pretending there was any flex at all. Really wasn't any flex to be seen. And most people know people who are overwhelmingly core and with no flex at all. And then the other extreme is all flex. You know, I'll adapt to anything. And obviously comes to mind quite a lot of teachers within international schools. Oh, I'm so flexible. Oh, you know, I'm a global citizen and all that. And no apparent core whatsoever. And I associate that in my mind with my first boss, who was a salesman who would have said anything to get a deal. And, you know, sometimes there's very little core, in which case you wander around, you think, you know, is there anything this person wouldn't do? Who is this person? But sometimes there actually is a core, but it's just, I'm never going to reveal it. Yeah, because I regard it as personal. And I remember someone saying to me, a young person at university saying, "If you want to be a leader, do you have to reveal your core?" And as she asked the question, her smile came across her face and she said, "I know the answer, isn't it? Is that if I want people to trust me, I have to reveal some of my core." Yeah. You know, it cannot be entirely private if you are a leader, you have to show some of it.

Yeah.

And cultural intelligence comes on the line between the two. A really stupid example of this is an email I got I got from somebody, it's an oversimplistic answer, but I got an email from somebody who's lovely and he sent me a message saying he really found Core Reflex very helpful. I said, thank you, and he said, give me an example, and he said, I've stopped spitting in the street. So I immediately winged a note back saying, just explain this to me, and he said, do you know, Julia, I have never realized that if I spit in the street, it is in some people's core that they never ever will ever take me seriously ever again because they've seen me spit in the street. And I've also realized that I can stop spitting in the street and still be myself. Yeah, it's a very silly example, but it is this thing of core and flex and understanding it. And people say to me, you know, what's the optimum line between core and flex? And, you know, I always refuse to answer that because actually it's the wrong question. You know, what they're really saying is, what's the perfect indicator that I have Intelligence.

Yeah.

And actually the perfect indicator is not where your line sits. The perfect indicator is that the line moves.

Yeah. I was just gonna, I was just gonna ask, like, surely there is some dynamic movement of that line, right?

As you grow or age or as you grow and age, you know, you go from a junior school, let's say, where you were in the majority to an international school where you're in a mixture and there's no majority. That will change your core and flex. You'll be forced to think and think, that really isn't in my core. I could choose not to do it. Or you think something's in your flex and actually the truth is it's really pretty core to you. And you are putting that line to the test all the time. Now the line should not be swinging around, but it should be calibrating as you meet new situations You know, my son was marrying somebody and the wedding was in Bangalore. And I remember my son coming to see me and saying, "Mum, you are going to wear a saree, aren't you?" And I said, "No, I'm not going to wear a saree because I'm not from India. And secondly, because I've got quite a lot of fat around the middle of me and I don't really want anybody to see it." Right? Yeah. And I remember saying, "Absolutely not." And one of my daughters walked into the room and said, "Mum, I thought you said what you wore was in your flex." Ah yeah, because in your TED Talk you talk about that, going to Saudi Arabia, right? Absolutely. Never let your kids read you and watch your TED Talks. But you know, she said, it's in your flex, Mum. And, and so of course I wore a sari because she's right. And you know, your flex can become sclerotic like all muscles if you're not careful. So you need to keep watching the line between the two. And you know, when you get older like me, you know, I'm as I say, 63, you know, you begin to think that you know everything and, and your core begins to creep up really dangerously and you have to really consciously knock it back into its place. So core and flex to me is really helpful. It means that I can also have a conversation with you and figure out, you know, is it core to you and flex to me or core to me and flex to you and You know, it helps having the difficult conversations that the result of which increase your cultural intelligence, but also the result of which, if you have the conversation with yourself, you know, is this really in my core, or am I being a bit of a prat, or did I say this was in my flex, and if it is, why am I resisting this?

Yeah, yeah. No, it's— I mean, a lot of that comes— there's kind of a lot of deep personal reflection to do, isn't there? But I also, I would completely agree that a lot of those insights come through conversation with other people. And again, back to the international school example, that's why there's such a rich opportunity there because you've got so much interesting difference in order to have those conversations. But sometimes, yeah, there's a lack of language to use. But I would also, I just wanted to ask, do you see the idea of the core is that somehow we are afraid to lean into that and have that conversation about what is in our core because Sometimes it's almost like to be, to bring in the political correctness kind of thing, as though you're supposed to be flexible about everything and kind of inclusive and responsive and actually putting your stake in the ground and saying, no, these things are core to me is not always encouraged. I don't know. Would you agree with that?

I mean, I haven't been properly in an international school for a long time, but I think that we live in the real world. Yes. And, you know, we need not go too deep and meaningful. It's just, you know, practical. So for example, in my core, being on time matters a lot. It matters a lot to me. And actually, the truth is, for a long time, I judged other people based on my core, which is being on time. Then I went and worked in a certain country that just took the mickey out of me for being so uptight. Why are you so uptight? 10 minutes, 15 minutes doesn't matter, you're just an English person who's too uptight. And they deliberately say English person, they're not British. You know, you just chill out, Julia, stop this and stop judging other people based on the fact that they're 10 minutes late. And, you know, I had to rethink that one.

Yeah.

And then I remember going working in another country where I realised that being on time was already late.

Late.

Unless you were at a meeting 10 minutes early in preparedness and readiness, you were already late and rude.

Interesting, yeah.

So you were constantly trying, you know, even on that, you don't have to be, you know, political correctness, I don't know, but you know, just on very, very practical things. And I get absolutely lost in the concept of political correctness. It just strikes me as an expression that's generally used by irritating people who don't want to have to change. I think courtesy helps a lot, you know, just if you, if you take the trouble to understand another culture and what they would want. If it's in my core, you know, so telling huge lies is completely okay in another culture, then I probably wouldn't succeed in that culture. Yeah, um, you know, so there are things where you have to have core and you have to figure out what's your core, and if it doesn't work, then you have to walk away. And there's no point in pretend— you know, your core isn't for real if you're not prepared to walk away. But I used to think being on time was in my core. Now it's in my flex.

Interesting. Because it's the context, right? The context you're in matters greatly. Right. And are you saying that the context itself, the cultural context itself has a core and a flex, or is it in individuals?

It's all, it's a multiple levels, you know, it's about the individual and the individual's culture. Is as unique as their DNA. It's a mixture of many things put together. You know, I have the culture of being a parent, I have the culture of being a grandparent, I have the culture of being educated French, I have the culture of being in an NGO. You know, it's, it's a DNA issue. Then there's obviously organizations have cores and flexes, big time. Countries, cities, Cities in particular have cores and flexes. So you can apply the language to any of the above, and I think is helpful. So there would be some countries in which, frankly, I would struggle to succeed because what's in their core is so completely out with what's in my core.

Yeah.

Now I can go in and I can work with them, but I wouldn't wish to live there because there's a clash there. Yeah, and then there are some other countries where you judge that country based on the news media who thoroughly enjoy, you know, winding you up. Then you get there and realize that, you know, there isn't a clash at all and you can live with this.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And is that what you mean by boundary crossing? Because I was interested in this term in relation to leadership, because you talked there about organizational cultures having a core and a flex very differently. And some of that is set by the leadership, but I think perhaps less than they like to imagine is set by the leadership. Most of it's set by the group, the organization, the people, the experiences, the interactions themselves, but the leadership have to navigate that. And is that what you mean by boundary crossing and their ability to do that?

Come back to the boundary crossing question. I, I fundamentally disagree with you. I think it's hugely about the leadership. It's particularly about the leadership when there's an absence of leadership.

Sure. Yeah.

And I also think that, you know, the leader spends very little of their time doing this, but the tiny proportion of their time that they spend trying to establish or to share their own pause and flex, to align them with the organization and to illustrate and live it is absolutely fundamental. You know, it's not a big task, but it's an absolutely crucial task. And if you've been in an organization that is all flex and no core, or all core and no flex, frankly, you know, you spend your life trying to get away from it. But the boundary crossing to me is— sorry to not give an easy, simple answer to it, but The boundary crossing to me is we have to solve some pretty big problems in the world and in our own communities. They are messy, complex problems that cross all the boundaries. Yeah. And that's generational ones and geographies and this, that, and the other. And so as if we have leaders or people right across the world who refuse to cross boundaries across generations and geographies, then we'll never solve the really messy problems. So we need leaders who can cross those kinds of boundaries. And let's just reflect for a second on the generational boundary. You know, I remember this shocking statistic that if you took all the global corporate boards, all the global NGO boards, all the global Kwangos, and all the global university-type academic boards, only 2% of the members of those boards are under 40. Yeah, so to my mind, that makes them deeply short on the skills of being able to adapt to a world that's moving so fast and where AI is coming. Yeah, we badly need generational cultural intelligence. That means people like me— if you're in post and you're in your 60s and you can't inspire somebody in their 20s, I think you should get the hell out of the job because it's, it's a requirement. But I also think that if you're in your 20s, you must be able to influence somebody in their 60s. And I think, you know, International Schools, as well as all the other cultural intelligences, have to develop young people who are capable of influencing leaders who are double or three times their age, and not be completely paralyzed in fear by their need to show respect. Or no respect for people who are 3 times their age.

That's really interesting. I had a very interesting conversation with Carlota Perez, The Economist, about that. And she talks about the technological revolutions and the fact that because of the longer life expectancy, et cetera, we have, we've got these boardrooms full of older people than would have happened in previous technological revolutions. And it's, it's a fascinating issue actually to deal with. And I love that thought that, yeah, cultural intelligence and, and preparing young people can actually help to kind of bridge that. I'd love to talk a bit about your current project as well, because it's connected to this as well in terms of boundary crossing and the Women Emerging from Isolation group that you've created. I've seen the group on LinkedIn and, you know, a network of professionals, women all over the world coming together. And perhaps I just wanted to invite you to say a bit about So I'm assuming the isolation is pandemic, but not just pandemic. Has that emerged out of other aspects of your work, or has it always been a part of what you've been doing? And also connected to that, what might we do more in education to support that, the vision of what you're doing there?

So I started Women Emerging from Isolation last year, and as you quite rightly say, you know, women will emerge from this particular isolation battered but undaunted, and to my mind, need to try and make sure that the world doesn't slide back into its old behaviors. We all say things have got to be different after the pandemic. The truth is they won't be. Human beings have an extraordinary ability to slide back to the old ways. If they are going to be different, I think women are going to have to really, really push hard for that. And I think one of the things that has to be different is how people lead. You know, there has to be a more collaborative approach to leadership, and, and otherwise we can't deal with some of the problems that are coming around. And I think the women know quite a lot about collaboration because their isolation has been going on for hundreds of years. They know a lot about isolation, so therefore they, definition, know a lot about collaboration. When I started Women Emerging from Isolation, it absolutely amazed me because I, I came back to this passion about women that I've been distanced from while I was running Compurpose. But one of the things that made me sad is the amount of global organizations that claim to be about women and that claim to be global, but they're really not global at all. They're Western women lecturing the rest of the world on what it is to be a woman, which I find incredibly tedious and totally inappropriate. So it seemed to me Women Emerging from Isolation had to be genuinely global from the beginning, and it had to do sort of two things, and we're well on our way to doing it, and it's an increasing community which any young woman or old woman or woman of any age is very, you know, a lot of, we've got a lot of young women in international schools who are members of it, and I hope more. But two things, you know, there is this fallacy that women don't work well together, I won't speculate on why it's put around. I think it's quite cynical sometimes to try and divide us. But the truth, my experience is that women work extraordinarily well together with a beautiful ease and joy about it. Having said that, women could work even more cleverly together if they had slightly more cultural intelligence about each other. You know, they accepted that there might be more than one definition of what it is to be a woman, or how a woman should dress or behave or do whatever they're doing. Increasing the cultural intelligence of women about other women seems to me to be a pretty high priority. And, you know, women occasionally say, why did you make that compromise? To which the answer is, it's not a compromise, it was my decision, my friend. You know, and if you were in my culture, you probably would have made the same decision.

Yeah.

So the cultural intelligence of women. And then the second thing is, and please forgive me, this sounds rude, and I don't mean to be rude, but most of the leadership books in the world were written by men.

Yeah, most of the leaders are men, right?

Yeah, absolutely. But even the mere framing of it was written by men.

Yeah.

And an enormous amount of the books that were written by women are about how to succeed in a man's world.

Yeah.

Which frankly is of no interest to me whatsoever. You know, I would be prepared to do male leadership if I thought it had been staggeringly successful, but I think it's pretty self-evident that it hasn't. So I'm very eager with Women Emerging from Isolation that out of this increasingly big community of women across the world, we have a really good stab at trying to reframe, redefine, rethink leadership in a way that's not female leadership, because my sons, I think, have the right to do it too. So it shouldn't be branded as female leadership, but an approach to leadership that resonates for women, so that young women in particular don't say, well, if that's leadership, I don't want anything to do with it. Yeah, we need them to say, that's leadership, that feels right to me. I'm up for it.

Yeah, no, very interesting. And that I haven't kind of thought through enough to know exactly how I feel about it, but there is often a kind of an assumption that it's this, I don't know, what is it, feminization of leadership that needs to happen. And therefore, by definition, the women are therefore, their competence are built around that and they know, they understand it kind of naturally. And that's what needs to shift within the males. So the men, I don't quite know what I'm saying.

I don't think any of us know what we're saying, but all I, all I can say is that I have 5 kids, 2 boys and 3 girls, and I think that the approach to leadership that is produced by Women Emerging from Isolation, I hope, is attractive to all 5 of my kids. And indeed, I hope that they're already putting it into practice. And, and lastly, I observe that they are. Yeah, I don't think it's particularly feminine. I think I see an enormous amount of men who are naturally like that, but then sort of forced by that, this framing of leadership, to become something that they don't actually buy themselves. Yeah, so I don't think it's feminine leadership, and I don't think the women have an inbuilt advantage in it. Yeah, I think it's just an approach to leadership, or maybe we should make it an approach to leadership that resonates for women and with many young people across the world.

Yeah, no, good. And do you see that type of a leadership being more resonant in general now? Because for example, things like agile leadership or inclusive leadership and servant leadership, for example, you know, there are, there feel to be more and more discussions around different framings of leadership that seem to be moving in that direction to be a bit more open and emotionally intelligent and hopefully culturally intelligent and responsive and developmental of their teams and those kinds of things. Do you see optimism in terms of—

I'm optimistic because I can see the thought leadership, but I'm not terribly optimistic that it's having quite the impact that it's supposed to have. And I see an awful lot of the old stuff just cracking on. And, you know, there are quite a lot of democratically elected leaders over the last 10 years who evidence the complete opposite of the trend that you're talking about, and millions of people have voted for them. So maybe I could see some small roots, but I think that there's a real danger that the leadership world comes up with an, you know, more and more wacky idea to sell a book or to sell a piece of research, and it all becomes quite distant, non-practical, sort of, they're the books you read but you don't actually do it. So I think there's a certain number of landing that's got to go on here, and also de-Westernizing. You know, I have a friend who's just walked away from a leadership job in Pakistan, and when I said to her, why? Huge job. I said, why? And she said, I made the terrible mistake of going and being educated educated about leadership in the States, and it doesn't work. Yeah, you know, I was told to lean in by the experts. Well, at the time it sounded logical, but you know, if you already have privilege, leaning in is really easy. If you don't have privilege, leaning in can be bloody dangerous. Excuse my language.

No, absolutely. No, completely. And I suppose maybe that segues nicely because that There was this phrase I really liked on your— so your organization is Common Purpose, which you set up 20, 25 years ago?

No, when I was 29, and I'm 63.

Ah, okay. I can't do that maths right now, but there we go.

No, neither can I. Neither can I.

So one of the sections on conversations with purpose, it says, success is not based on how easily we can find neat resolutions, but to what extent we can build bridges and create common ground. And that strikes me as a connection to what you've just been saying, that we do quite enjoy finding neat resolutions for big thorny complex problems. But actually that, that's just a fiction to make us feel better as leaders or whoever, because it feels nice to come up with a nice neat solution. But actually, and this was this idea of purpose that maybe we can finish with, having a conversation with purpose. Allows that space for some of the kind of the necessary difficult and emergent things that need to happen to come out of that, which won't be neat and tidy and resolving, but will hopefully be a better move forward. So, so what is it about conversations with purpose, I guess, is my question.

I would give them slightly more nuanced view of that is because you need conversations with purpose, of course, and you need them with the language of cultural intelligence so that they can find their way. But, you know, one of the outcomes of a conversation from— with purpose has to be something happens. And in, you know, a leader has to have conversations with purpose, of course they do, but as a result they have to make decisions, and often those have to be clear-cut, neat decisions, you know. The information comes from wide sources, from absolutely clarity of purpose, but in the end, they've gotta make a decision. Are we going in this direction or are we going this direction? And come on folks, make this decision. And when the going gets tough and you've gotta make a decision between A and B, you find your leaders sitting around having conversations with purpose. You're slightly stuffed. And very often, as we know, as a leader nowadays, The reality is that you have to make a decision between A and B, and it's probably not really a decision, it's a fine call because there's an argument for both of them. But as the leader, you've got to choose which one you're going for. And so yes, conversations with purpose, but the outcome has to be that the leader has to be able to produce some clarity for people so they know where they're going.

Yeah, yeah. No, it makes sense. I mean, it has to, we can spend too long in the highfalutin kind of conversations about these things, but I would say the only thing I would say on that is the fine call between A and B in a complicated domain is kind of necessary, but then perhaps in a more emergent complex domain where things are really, I mean, really difficult to find even the A and the B path. I mean, they don't, you can't even see that. Then I think, Sometimes leaders need a different approach in that kind of situation. And yes, it can sound like inaction to just talk, but actually some of that, and I mean, as you say, it depends how widely you are bringing the information in, how widely, who's invited into that conversation, because I think that's part of it, isn't it? Is getting all of the necessary data and information from your, your constituents, wherever you're working in order to then try to make some sense of that complex situation.

Absolutely, absolutely. So absolutely broad and absolutely constantly the question is why, why are we doing this? You know, absolute clarity. What's the purpose? What are we trying to achieve? And it should be the most commonly asked questions because you get caught up in the mixture and the noise and you can't, you forget what the purpose is and where we're going. But then, and I'm not trying to be too tough, But I am trying to say that I'm seeing too many leaders who are so well trained in the process. And then there comes a moment where you have to make a decision.

Yeah.

Yeah. And frankly, you know, there's a lot of noise. And if you sit there saying, look, there's so much noise, it's almost impossible to see what A and B are. The answer is that's what you're paid for. You better get on with it. My father used to say, leadership is about making decisions. If you find you've made the right decisions, then get on, do it, more of it. And if you find you've done the wrong decision, then change it, apologize, and go back in the right direction. You know, so there's all kinds of a wide enough clarity of purpose, get on with the decision, explain the decision, and then be human enough to say if you've got it wrong. Yeah. And on the whole, you hope that only 1 in 5 are wrong, so therefore everybody will give you the benefit of the doubt because 4 of them have been good. But you, you know, that's your job as a leader. In the end, you have to make a decision.

Yeah.

And you've got to decide, however complex, messy, you've got to do it. And, and I— we, we can't lose that sight.

No, definitely. All right, brilliant. Thank you so much. Really interesting. I mean, I would love to talk to you a lot, a lot longer, but there's, um, just for people to be aware of, with Common Purpose you run all sorts of additional further training courses in leadership and cultural intelligence and those things.

Yeah, Common Purpose is global, operates all over the world, both face-to-face and also we've been into online education for a very long time. So there are enormous amount of programs, whatever age you are. And wherever you are in the world that will increase your cultural intelligence, your ability to lead beyond authority, your ability to have decent purposeful conversations and to be both a professional and a citizen.

Brilliant. Yeah, I just wanted to end with that just because I think, you know, this has sparked lots of things, I'm sure. Well, certainly for me, but for many people. And if there's places they can go to find out more or to learn more, that'd be brilliant. So thank you, Julia. Amazing.

Lots of love.

Thank you. All right, all the best.

Bye-bye.

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