Deep Collaboration is Transforming Higher Education in Africa - A Conversation with Rose A. Dodd

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

What was different is that we were saying our collaboration should extend to being responsible for each other's outcomes. So we want a shared vision and we want shared responsibility, meaning that I care that the graduates from the university across the street is as good and as strong as the graduates from my university.

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the podcast. My name's Tim Logan, and the podcast is produced by Good Impact Labs. Collaboration, whether it's between young people in a classroom or between institutions across an educational ecosystem, is often seen as an unquestioned virtue, like an assumed aspect of people simply working together on a shared purpose, but without much thought given to how it happens in meaningful and deep ways to generate genuinely expanded possibilities for everyone. Rose A. Dodd and her team at the Education Collaborative have been showing how this is done at a massive scale across the African continent for the last decade. Rose joined me this week to share what she and her network have been learning about how deep, radical collaboration can really shift and transform systems across a whole continent. Rose is a strategic leader mobilizing Africa's higher education sector at a critical moment when the continent's youth population is growing rapidly and yet tertiary enrollment remains the lowest in the world. As the Executive Director of the Education Collaborative, a pan-African initiative launched by Ashesi University in 2017, Rose leads a peer-driven network that has engaged hundreds of institutions across the continent. And under her leadership, the collaboration is driving transformation in teaching, institutional practices, and graduate outcomes, impacting hundreds of thousands of students with a goal to reach 1 million by 2030. To find out more about the work of the Education Collaborative, you'll find many links in the show notes.

So appreciate you taking the time, Rose, to have this conversation. I'm really, really looking forward to learning more about the Education Collaborative. I think the thing that sparked my interest was just understanding more deeply all of the amazing things that Ashesi University is doing in Ghana, but then that kind of opened up into this much broader context of the Education Collaborative. So yeah, no, firstly, thank you so much for joining. I'm really happy to be able to have this conversation.

Yes, Tim, I'm happy to be here and happy to share, you know, about the collaborative and all that we are learning along the way.

Fantastic. So just maybe just to set the context for people, given that this is a Pan-African initiative, I thought there was something really powerful that George Mugabe said recently at a gathering that I saw online, And as I understand, he's the director of the East Africa hub for the Education Collaborative. So one of your colleagues, he said that transforming Africa begins with transforming its universities. And that just felt like a really interesting way in maybe to this conversation. Obviously we are talking about higher education largely. This podcast tends to focus more on K-12 education, but I, I know that's such an important part of the ecosystem is the higher education space as well. So yeah, perhaps just reflecting on that quote, what is that part of the work you feel you are doing with the Education Collaborative?

Yeah. Um, thank you, Tim. Yes, is the quick answer. It is true. I would say that transforming Africa largely begins with transforming the universities. So the last I checked, I think Africa has maybe some 1,500 or 1,600 tertiary institutions, right, on the continent. And maybe something like 9% or below 10% enrollment rates into tertiary education. In other parts of the world, this is somewhere over 30% for the enrollment rates, right? So for the continent, it's like, you know, a larger base for pre-tertiary, and it significantly becomes lower as you get into tertiary education. Do you know what this means? It means that higher education or universities on the continent really are significant gateway into the formal workforce. It means that a person sitting in university today, in the university classroom today, is very likely to be in management, to be in leadership, to start a business that employs people, or to go on to lead research or policy or engage largely in government. Very, very likely because the enrollment is so small. It's growing, of course, with population growth, but it's so small that this group in higher education currently are actually a critical few. And so in order for industry to be transforming, economies to be transforming, this group have to be deliberately developed for that future.

Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, it seems to play a critical role, doesn't it? And so then as you were then thinking about bringing this idea of the Education Collaborative together, we— in our previous conversation, you were speaking very powerfully about how important the philosophy was to that approach. And I think some of that perhaps is coming from Patrick Awuah, the Vice Chancellor of Ashesi University, and his vision that thinking about getting to more transformative scale in that higher education sector, perhaps collaboration was the way to go about that rather than, because I guess sometimes there's a logic that competition is actually the best way to drive innovation in sectors, right? In certain industries and sectors. And I just wondered, clearly you have made a very, very strong pitch on this idea of working together and on collaboration. So yeah, perhaps you could just briefly introduce what the Education Collaborative is, but then particularly share why did you intentionally think that collaboration was the way that you would kind of leverage that critical view as you were just talking about?

Right. So the Education Collaborative is a network of higher education institutions in Africa who are committed to ensuring that the graduates that come through their gates get into the work world, not only to get jobs, but also to create jobs, to lead industry, and also to lead economies, right? It's a network that are collectively saying, we wanna capture what is working well within our walls. We want to openly share with others so that they can replicate it. We want to together improve ourselves through learning. We wanted to gather the evidence of the work we are doing. To show that it actually works for our context and then communicate what is really working for Africa within Africa, right? But ultimately this network is saying that the graduate that comes out of our gates should be ready to transform the continent and we want to hold each other accountable for it. That's the Education Collaborative, right? And we've been going at this since 2017 when Ashesi University started it or convened the first set of universities. Why are we approaching this through collaboration? I think collaboration, it's one of those words that is used very often. You know, it's everyone uses collaboration. There's collaboration, there's partnerships. So I think in general, we all seem to have an understanding of what it means to collaborate. And I don't know that there is any negative, you know, definition for collaboration. It's like, let's come together to maximize our resources. Let's come together to ensure that we replicate quickly, that we learn faster, that we are able to speed up the transformation that we wanna see or the change that we want to see. And even more importantly, that we can transfer, right, our learnings and innovations across our boundaries. But in a sector that has been defined by competition, right? Yeah. Higher education is really competitive. Universities. Have over time grown to become institutions that are competing for a, and I'm using air quotes here, limited number of qualified candidates, right, who come through their gates. But it's not really the case if you think about it, right? There's a gradual increase in the population of young people who are entering higher education in Africa. Higher education in Africa is not just universities. It's all tertiary level. There's TVET institutions, there are teacher training colleges. So it's very, it's quite broad, and this is the gateway to the working world, right? And so the sense of competition is actually more in our minds than it really is in reality because there is a huge demand for higher education and university classrooms are really bursting at their seams right now. With the number of young people entering university, right, on the continent. And so collaboration was really a, you know, no-brainer. I said, let's work together because we are essentially trying to achieve the same thing, right? Get graduates into the working world. What was different though, or what marked Education Collaborative as different, is that we were saying our collaboration should extend to being responsible for each other's outcomes. So we want a shared vision and we want shared responsibility for each other's outcomes, meaning that I care that the graduates from the university across the street is as good and as strong as the graduates from my university. And that is what added just a little bit more to how we are defining collaboration in the Education Collaborative.

That's amazing. That's totally amazing to me because That last piece, I mean, you bring it in at the end as though it's a small thing, but that's huge, right? I mean, the, the idea that you are collectively responsible for the outcomes, because in my limited experience in higher education, that's part of what the competition is about is for the best students, right? Because the best, if we get the best students in, we'll get the best outcomes out because we are focusing on our institutional outcomes, not the outcomes of the whole sector. So that idea of committing to the shared higher purpose of contributing to, you know, these collective outcomes, that is a huge and quite transformative idea, I think.

It is. It really is, you know, and I like that you use the word transformative, right? Because that's the goal, right? We are trying to get to a point where higher education on the continent, you could say, are beating to the, you know, the sound of the same drum, Right? So that all of our efforts is actually moving the continent, not just trying to elevate one institution. Tim, when I was in, I went to grad school in the US, I was an African student. You know, I wasn't a University of Ghana student or Ashesi University student. I was a student from Africa along with so many other students from the continent, from different universities, huge universities, new universities, excellent universities. But collectively we were students from Africa. And so it's very critical that universities and higher education institutions on the continent begin to realize that ultimately their contribution to education or to educating the young person is in the bigger picture of every other university's contribution, right, to the continent so that we move faster.

Yeah.

To achieving that purpose.

I love it. And I mean, so then the kind of next logical question to me is then how do you move past just saying that in big words and actually developing the level of trust that is required inter-institutionally, right? Between institutions, because that is, I mean, it's, it's, it's not a small thing to ask institutions to come with you on that journey, right? To commit to that level of collaboration, deep collaboration, right? And so, yeah, maybe could you just talk to that idea? I don't know whether it's trust or whether— I've, I read about this idea of interorganizational psychological safety. I mean, that's an interesting concept, but yeah, that, I guess we're getting into the space of how do you then begin to nurture that level of collaboration, right?

Um, yes, this concept or construct of interorganizational psychological safety, it's something that I guess, began to materialize to me when I was thinking about how Education Collaborative has managed to achieve connections, you know, these, this level of connection amongst the universities. And you know, this concept of psychological safety, right? It's been studied extensively. It's come up, you know, it's, it's been applied a lot in teams, but it's always been done within teams, but it's, it's a very powerful concept if you think about it, right? It's like, how does a team get to a point where every single team member feels safe enough to admit that, hey, I have no idea how to go about this, I need help, or to come out and boldly say that, you know, I am excellent at this. And so if you need to learn, you know, you can approach me, right? How do you make a team safe so that the individuals can thrive because they openly share, to learn, to grow, and to advance the team's goals, right? And the question became then, how do we do that between organizations, right? Organizations, of course, are made up of people. And so trying to figure out how to work with the people was one of the first ways to do this. Okay. Leaders are very critical and leaders by themselves are also accountable to a certain corporate or university structure, right? There's like boards and councils. There are 5-year strategic plans and KPIs and goals. And there are also mostly fixed terms for university leaders, right? And even most university positions. And so for a leader to decide to give you some of their time, to commit some of the work they are doing within the limited term that they have, and to commit to try to encourage their board or their council to buy into a certain collective vision is very, very significant, right? And to achieve that is to first acknowledge that this leader has to operate within these constraints. Okay. Because I think oftentimes when we are thinking around collaboration, we are thinking how good it is. To form this partnership. And it's true that it's good to form this partnership. But the question is, how do we form this partnership without adding another layer of, you know, work or burden to what the university is trying to do, right? So how do you get that leader to commit without them thinking this is a whole other thing that has nothing to do with the goals we have set as an institution? So in the Education Collaborative, we are very deliberate to balance institutional autonomy, leadership goals and ambitions with the group's vision and then the group's, you know, goals and ambitions. We have our collective goals, we have our collective purpose, and over time what is happening is the individual leaders and institutional goals begin to shape to look like the group's goals, right? So when the time comes for maybe one institution to begin strategic planning. When they start talking about, you know, that section of the strategic plan that talks about partnerships and internationalization, they start thinking, what does it really mean to do partnerships and internationalization given that I am in the Education Collaborative, right? So over time, it begins, the individual begins to shape to the group as well. But also there has to be an enabler who is comfortable with anonymity. So there has to be an enabler or a group of enablers who is just very comfortable with remaining in the shadows forever. You may never be known, you may never be seen because in order to arrive at this level of connection and collaboration that sticks, the institutions, the leaders have to believe and know, and it has to be true that they're doing it themselves. And so you as the enabler, you have to almost figure out how to work yourself out of a job.

Mm-hmm.

You know, even from the very beginning, it's not that it's something you realize as you go. No, you, you have to go into this knowing that at the end of the day, it has been successful when I'm no longer needed. And yet the goal is still being achieved, right? And it really shaped how I form my own team, my operational team, right? How we even approach our strategic communications in the Education Collaborative. And how we engage publicly, you know, the institutions in the network. But very important in achieving this level of collaboration, or I guess interorganizational psychological safety. Yeah. I haven't figured it out yet what it really means, what the dynamics are, but for starters, this is some of what we are, we are seeing.

Yeah, I love it. Can I just ask, is that what I hear you reflecting on there is like, sounds like a trust in the process because there is, I absolutely, it really resonates what you're saying. Cause sometimes you get these layers and it's like, it's seen as separate work and now we've got to balance the priorities of the network with the priorities of the institution. And they, they feel like two separate worlds and they feel like two separate pieces of work and actually. Quite often they don't align. But if you somehow, what it sounds like, as you let it somewhat evolve over time, you see the convergence and the mutual learning that happens in those different spaces. And they don't necessarily become one, but they definitely merge in an interesting way, in a much more, what, fluid or relational way than if you were just trying to kind of somewhat mechanistically impose one set of KPIs and another and merge them. And, you know, and then it just, it feels like additional work. So I, I don't know. Yeah, it just sounds interestingly like you are allowing the process of learning between organizations to take place.

Yes, exactly. You know, and, and I think that kind of drives to some of the values that we hold very closely or very dearly in the Education Collaborative. One of it is learning, right? Another one is openness in the sense that institutions in the collaborative commit to openness. They just commit to be open and honest about what they're going through, what they need. And we were able to achieve that because we collectively just came to realize that we have similar challenges.

Sure.

And we have similar, I guess, issues that, you know, we are dealing with on our different campuses. We have similar stakeholders that we are all trying to engage with, right? So bringing that as our shared lever or the shared connector amongst us was very, very important for the Education Collaborative. And when I started engaging universities back in 2017, that was it. That was really the story. It's like, listen, we are trying to build a network where we all openly learn and share with each other. And Ashesi University started it by saying, you know, this is how we do admissions, for example. Here is the paperwork, here is the form they fill, here is how we select the best candidates. They say, you know, this is how we do marketing and this is how we do branding. This is what we prioritize. They said, this is a course we offer in leadership. Do you want to adopt it here? You can try it. So there was a bit of setting an example by the first institutions that joined the collaborative by being open. Others said, oh wow, 'You mean you are okay with me replicating what you're doing? You're not worried about competition?' No, we are not worried about competition because it's not really about competition, right? It's about improving our process flow and outcomes and also improving learning, right?

Yeah, amazing. And, and that's what I was thinking, you know, does that include openness and transparency about the things that are not going well? I mean, you know, the, the troubles you're having and the, the things that you've tried and failed, or challenges?

Yes, it does, you know, and includes this on all levels, on the leaders, on the level of the leaders, on the, on the level of administrators or faculty. This is what I've tried and failed at. This is how I did it. Let's brainstorm on how I might do it better. Or I noticed that you are doing it better. And so how, you know, can I just try this in my context and see if it works? You know, we've had faculty members who have actually gone to teach with other faculty members in their classrooms. And walked away saying, you know, I think I want to adopt this aspect of your course or this approach of teaching, right? And then just gone to adopt it. We are not saying sign an MOU. We are not saying sign an agreement. We are not saying there's some IP clause somewhere. Listen, this worked for you. I believe that it might work for me, maybe not in the exact same way, but in a way that fits my university and my context, right? So we, we, that's Flexibility is very critical in the Education Collaborative. When institutions are learning across each other, especially in structured programs in the collaborative, for instance, when we are doing mentoring, we hardly ever have one-to-one pairings of mentors, mentor to mentee, because it's not about copy paste. It's about learning and then adapting, right? And it's very important, you know, in, in, in collaboration, that flexibility.

So do you mean by that you'd have small groups of, of people, you know, like for example, I think I read something in one of your publications about careers advisors working together, you know, so is it, does it become co-mentoring somehow where they're working in small groups?

Yes, it does. It becomes, so there's, there's what you would define as a community of practice. So there is that, right? But then there's also the formal mentor structure where it would be maybe two mentor institutions or mentor career advisors supporting one, you know, university in developing their own strategy for career services. But even in that process, that university that's developing would be required to visit more universities to learn about more systems, right, for career services. So that's whatever they design with their mentor really works for their context. And it's not really a copy and paste.

Yeah, interesting. And I actually, if I can, I had another question about that contextualization thing, because as I mentioned, George is the director of the East Africa Hub and you have this kind of slightly distributed hub model in which you've got, I guess what I'm thinking is, you know, Africa's a big place. It's a very diverse place. There's a whole bunch of different regional dynamics and different, you know, obviously linguistic dynamics and all sorts of diversity. At play. How do you kind of work with that in relation to, as you say, certain things working in certain contexts or being tailored to specific contexts?

Mm-hmm. So you, you rightly said it, we, we adopt this regional hub model, right? And it's really driven by context relevance because Africa is huge, very diverse, and still similar in so many ways, right? But when you come to sub-regions, like West Africa has ECOWAS, East Africa has the East Africa Community, Southern Africa has SADC, right? There are regulatory bodies that kind of govern higher education, right? Setting standards for regulation, for accreditation, et cetera. And it makes more sense for universities within the East Africa region to kind of gather around that structure, that sub-regional structure, because it allows adoption or adaptability to move faster, right? Learning just moves faster because when you have to apply something in Kenya that you have learned in Uganda, it's just most likely fits within the East Africa communities, you know, frameworks, right? And so we, we have the regional hub structure for that, but we also have it for connection, right? Faster connection. Because it's, it's cheaper for a university to travel from Ghana to Nigeria, right? Or a person to travel from Botswana to Namibia than to travel across from Botswana to Ghana to learn about how maybe an innovation hub is built in an entrepreneurship center, right? So they can come to Ghana, but first We, we are encouraging institutions to connect within the region, and we achieve this by building it into our governance structure for the Education Collaborative. So besides my office, right, which is more the Africa continent, you know, secretariat, you could call it, there are the regional secretariats and the regional governance team, which is made up of senior leaders, vice chancellors, deans, COOs of the universities. And it forms sort of a board, but it's really a group that determines the priority that the institutions of the Education Collaborative in that region are working toward. What priority should East Africa be working toward? Is it excellence in research? Is it excellence in admissions priorities or in employability or in entrepreneurship? And annually they determine this and that drives where the funding for the region goes, you know, what programs the region prioritizes and how they contribute to the other regions, you know, as a whole. So that's sort of how we structure it so that we get the institutional, the regional, and then the continental.

No, interesting. Yeah. The level of autonomy happening. Yeah, it's interesting. And given that the podcast largely, as I say, is focused on K-12, I, I was just wondering how you think about schools in this as well, because obviously, you know, 16, 17, 18-year-olds are coming out of their schools and, and sometimes are going straight into higher education tertiary institutions. And I've had, for example, I've had some amazing young people from the African Leadership Academy on the podcast previously talking about their work and Hatim, the director, and just obviously some incredible schools doing amazing work along similar kinds of lines, entrepreneurship and innovation, all sorts of leadership, et cetera. I just wondered if that has ever, ever come up in the discussions with the Education Collaborative to actually begin to build links downwards, I suppose you could say, in terms of the age range, but into the K-12 space.

Yeah, no, it, it definitely, it has come up, you know, and a lot of our programs are actually open to K-12 as well. So for instance, you know, engagements around employability strengthening or preparation. The, the tools, the materials are all adaptable even at that level. Another one where I think we are a bit more deliberate in is with the tertiary institutions that train teachers for pre-tertiary education, right? And that's where some of the best collaborations can happen, K-12 to higher education, because the teachers that go into K-12, whether public or private, have to go through some training system somewhere that certifies them to teach at that level, right? And that training system is usually tertiary, you know, so how do we strengthen that to ensure that connection between the student coming out of K-12 and entering university, or not entering university, but being ready to be a productive citizen, right? When they go out into the world. Even from K-12, right? So that's, that's, and also, you know, like I know our programs around ethical leadership, it's one of the most highly adopted in K-12 because it's more around how to developing the skill or the muscle for ethical action, right? So you have values, you know your values, but how do you actually act on them, right? Especially in, in context and environments. Where everybody else is doing the opposite of what you know is right. How do you take the stance? How do you maybe eventually even begin to change the system in which you are, right? So that's one of the, the most adopted of the Education Collaborative's programs in the K-12 level.

Yeah. Beautiful. Now, interesting. And I just to clarify, when you say your course, is that an Ashesi? The ethical leadership is an Ashesi? Course, or is it an Education Collaborative course?

Right. So Giving Voice to Values, you know, just Giving Voice to Values, uh, was actually adopted from Darden University. It was created by a professor, Mary Gentilly, many, many years ago, but maybe about 15 or 17 years ago or so, Ashesi University adopted it. And then Ashesi University created more tailored case studies and stories to run the Giving Voice to Values curriculum as part of Ashesi University's leadership curriculum, right? And then the Education Collaborative adopted it from Ashesi University because Ashesi is in Ghana, so it's a bit more relevant, you know, with that adaptation. Yeah. Adapted it to Africa. So that's why we call it Giving Voice to Values Africa. And so the contexts in the case studies, the stories, Even the course adaptations, how students engage in it, or even professionals engage in it, have now been really grounded in the African context, trying to, you know, get representation from multiple countries.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I mean, the thing that I found interesting about the, the Giving Voice to Values Africa idea was a lot of what you've already talked about in this conversation, but that I also read about prior, was feels very values-led. I mean, it feels like the values in what you are doing are incredibly strong. So it was just interesting to me to also see that there's a really explicit focus on values-based leadership and values-based education in relation to that.

Yeah, yeah. No, it is, you know, as you know, I mean, the world is like changing so fast. Right? I mean, there's like technology now. I think, you know, if you say you're waiting 2 years, it's even too late. Technology is changing so quickly. There's also people and there's representation and then there's inclusion, right? So it's very important that leaders are very well grounded in ethics, right? But it's also not about a course or a program. It's culture. Um, so in the Education Collaborative, how we approach ethical leadership, it's not just about, you know, institutions who try to use GVV Africa. It's more, the question we ask is, how are you building a culture, an institutional culture of integrity and ethics? Right? And we know that takes time, but a tool like GVV Africa enables it. Learning from each other enables it. Engaging student leaders across the member institutions engages this, right, in conversations around— and then of course we, we have other programs for executive leaders and more structured modules, right, for student leaders, et cetera, to facilitate the development of this, you know, of this culture. But that's how we approach it because taking a course around ethics is really taking a course around ethics, right? You know the dynamics of it. But actually living it requires a bit more time and requires that you are really embedding, right? It's to become a part of you, the individual, the institution, and the entire system. And that's culture development.

Yeah, I love it.

Yeah. Amazing. And I know, I mean, you put me in touch with Jude Samuel Aka, one of your colleagues at Ashesi, who is doing that kind of community engagement work with the institutional level in, in community, in relationship with the local community. And I, I know As you say, that's such an important piece of not just learning about it, but kind of learning by engaging in relationship building and learning together in community about what's needed and how can we contribute and what's the responsibility of the institution honestly in a particular context. Because sometimes I think schools and universities don't necessarily take that on strongly. You know, it's sometimes seen the ivory tower idea that it's just this separate institution, you know, doing research or, or, or whatever, but actually what's its responsibility to the local context. So yeah, as you said, it's a muscle, right? And people are just not— there's so many narratives around competition in education that the muscle for competition is like, of course, that's been built over decades, right? But the muscle for collaboration, like proper radical deep collaboration, just isn't there for people because it's always, we go back into these defensive modes and it just, I think it's ultimately so damaging to the the higher purpose of the work we're trying to do, right?

So it really is, you know, and I recall I was at a meeting only a few weeks ago in one university in Kenya, and this came up. And one of the things that I told them was, you know, I think in Africa it's a little different. We just, we've kind of forgotten, and sometimes we just need to be reminded that as a continent, we are communal. You know, it's part of who we are to be communal, right? Versus individualistic or competitive, right? And so coming back to that should be easier for us as a continent, right? Because we are more communal, right? Fundamentally. So that's one of the things that we, we, we talk about a lot in the Education Collaborative because I was like, oh, really? I've traveled quite a few countries, quite a few cultures, and you would find that, oh, well, these guys are, they approach things just like we do, right? If you look at Traditionally how, you know, somebody has a baby and the whole village is there. And when I say village, I don't mean the village. I mean, it's in the city, but we are all there. Right. So, you know, you're, if you were, you're looking for a job after work, it's not just somebody your father knows, it's your father's uncle's classmates, you know, from high school's brother from climbing a tree when they were 5. Everybody is responsible for figuring out how you line up interviews. Right. So, you know, from traditional society to even corporate culture, I think fundamentally as a continent, we are communal and it, it's, we just have to keep reminding ourselves of that and how that shows up in how we do work in higher education.

Yeah, it's so interesting. So just maybe to round out the conversation, I mean, you've obviously come a long way, as you say, 2017, and I think you started with 9 universities and now you've got 61. Higher education institutions involved in the network and the collaborative. Where do you see it going? Where would you like it to go? I know you've kind of got some kind of phases in your strategy that you're working towards. As you continue to learn, where would you like to see this going? And also, do you, you know, do you have any kind of calls to action or invitations to the listeners who might be interested to either get involved or to find out more?

Yeah. So, you know, over the last, well, it's, it's been almost 10 years, you know, we, because it's 2017, so next year in 2027, We'll be clocking 10 years since we made the first connection with universities in the network where we, we engaged what, some number of institutions came together, right? And the first phase was really foundational, you know, determining what's the operational engine for something like this, right? How, how do we really set it up so that it's owned by the members and the institutions in the network? And not feel like something that Rose and her team are driving. And so it's Rose and the team's responsibility, but all of our responsibility and our operational structure is very deliberate to ensure that. And then we moved into the phase where we were just growing the network, right? What does that mean? Who is a member? How do we define it? Because we don't take, you know, there's no membership fees, right? So then how do we know you're a member and how do we say you're no longer a member? What does it mean? And then how do we grow the numbers while still holding onto our vision and our goals, right? So how do we grow and scale without diluting the main value, the reason for which the network is valuable, right? And, and we, that's what we are currently kind of rounding up in phase 2. And phase 3, building on all of that, is how do we begin to scale our influence? So there is a network with a certain set of goals, visions, and some achievements that we are clocking. We actually seen transformation in individual leaders, in individual staff and faculty, but also in institutions. Uh, we see it in strategic plans that are being transformed or adapted, right? We see it in graduates who are now getting better jobs or institutions tracking their data better. To be able to support their graduates better. We've captured all of this evidence. How do we package that to communicate that globally to contribute to what it means to do higher education in Africa, right? So what matters for higher education in Africa and what do we have to say about what matters for higher education in Africa? That's what Phase 3 is about. So we are looking at building better institutional capacities for data tracking is very, very important. Institutions track data, but not well enough. Not all of us do very well at that, right? And then even on top of that, how do we build shared metric and shared measurement systems? So when you say you have 90% employability rate and I say I have 70%, do they mean the same thing? You know, what are the systems that build up to that 70%? How are we measuring their success or their, you know, influence on the overall? And then also, you know, how do we communicate this on the larger global platform in a way that presents a unified university sector in higher education along with the regulator, the policymaker, and industry, right? So this is phase 3, right? It sounds like a lot, but we've built the foundations. We really built the foundations and the energy, I guess you could say, in the network for the members and the network itself to drive this next phase.

No, I love it. And I mean, yeah, it does, it does feel like a lot. But to add one more thing, I would say how much you are doing and learning that is inspiring and informing of university sectors around the world. So not just influencing across Africa, but also taking what you're learning and sharing it with with Europe and the US and the rest of the world, because I think so many contexts are struggling with same questions of, I mean, I had a previous podcast about transforming universities and, you know, there are big questions about what the role of university is now in place. And I think there's a huge amount that what I hear from you would be really instructive to higher education sectors all over the world. So no, really excited for that. And I mean, I'm, I'm curious if you don't mind me asking, what are you, why are you so passionate about this? I mean, Rose, individually rather than as, cuz obviously you're talking on behalf of the Education Collaborative, but what is it that drives you in this work?

Tim, you know, it's, it's, I guess it's really seeing the level of leverage that the continent of Africa can have or has that we actually haven't realized because we have not realized how to bring it together to make sense, you know, or to make a case. You know, like when you're going into, onto a negotiation table and you do not have your cards, you know, in a row, you haven't figured out what your story really is, there's no negotiation. You are really just going to accept what is put on the table, you know? So I am very, very passionate about the continent. But I am also very passionate about the role that the people that shape other people have to play. You know, the people in universities, we have a lot of influence on other human beings, right? We have a lot of influence on another young person's development, right? And so how can we make that influence mean something, right? That's what I'm passionate about. I am just an African first, and then I am Ghanaian, and then, you know, a global citizen after that.

Beautiful.

So it's very, very, you know, important to me, this work that I am doing.

No, thank you so much. And I mean, I love hearing about it, and it just— yeah, I, I share the same feeling that we— the role of being an educator has such a kind of relationship and society-shaping potential that that's partly why I I do the work and why I run this podcast is I think if we can have more people like you who are doing the work in such a values-informed relational way, putting learning first and, you know, building relationship, that will give rise to different kinds of institutions. And that I think a lot of people are really trying to understand how to do that. And it's just so inspiring to hear the way that you are doing it with Education Collaborative. So no, thank you so much.

Yeah, no, thank you so much. Tim Logan, I'm very happy to share.

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