Disrupting Exclusive Education - A Conversation with Dr. Abdulla Al Karam

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

Any quality assurance around the world, around education, will have to fundamentally change because the structure of education system will change. What pace, what speed, that will differ from one place to another. But you have to realize that you have to change right now and you have to cope up with the new ways of learning.

Hi again, welcome back. Glad you could join us again for another episode. And this week, it's a great privilege to be speaking with Dr. Abdullah Al Karam, who is the Chairman of the Board of Directors, Director General of the Knowledge and Human Development Authority in Dubai. Dr. Abdullah and KHDA are responsible for a wide spectrum of education in Dubai's private sector, spanning early learning, school, and higher education and training institutes. Dr. Abdullah has the distinction of holding key positions across the United United Arab Emirates, as well as being a board member of the National Qualifications Authority of the UAE federal government. He was also appointed to the board of the Social Sector Government of Dubai and has recently been nominated a member of the higher committee for protection of the rights of people with disabilities. Previously, Dr. Abdullah held positions in various government sectors, including vice chairman and secretary general, Hamdan bin Rashid Al Maktoum Award for Distinguished Academic Performance, and chairman of the Dubai government's Human Resources Committee. He was also a member of the World Economic Forum's Global Agenda Council on Education. Prior to the formation of KHDA, Dr. Abdullah held the post of CEO of Dubai Knowledge Village, which ushered in the International Branch Campus with a remit to diversify the education landscape in Dubai. Before that, Dr. Abdullah headed the research unit at Dubai Internet City and began his career working as a software engineer in the United States and France. Dr. Abdullah holds a PhD in Computer Engineering from the University of South Carolina.

Hi, Dr. Abdullah.

Hi, Tim Logan. How are you?

Thank you. I'm very good. Thank you. How are you?

Good, good.

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. I know you're a very busy man, and it's extremely interesting to be able to chat for the podcast. I'd love to just start with the fact that we've obviously all experienced a phenomenal challenge over the last 12 to 18 months. And with KHDA over there in Dubai. I just wondered if there were any particular things that have come out for you as big pieces of learning from the pandemic about the needs of learners or families or schools that you and the team there have learned.

Yeah, I mean, I think, look, it's— we're all still learning through this one, but maybe the one thing that really— things that we take it for granted We always thought about a school as a place where you go and get schooling, you know, you do your math and science and give the exams. And, you know, sometimes kids maybe didn't want to go to school, you know, they don't want to go today, and very often they really find the reason not to go, for example. But during this pandemic, I think it showed to the students themselves how important it is to actually go to school. And school is more than just a school where you get schooling. A school is a place where you interact with friends, you know, you socialize, you play sports, So I think the thing we took for granted is that, that really this pandemic should— and we've seen that when it was about the time to start going back and the few days that the kids went back, they really have valued this more than any other times because maybe this is the longest they ever had time off from school. You know, it could be, in our case, could be maybe 6 months from March till September. Another place could be longer. So I think the point is, is we really now value more the physical side of schooling.

Yeah, totally agree with that. I mean, it's become really clear that it's such a community role that the school has, right? In terms of those human relationships and support networks and all of those things which we've really missed out on. Yeah. Interesting. And then in relation to, obviously the pandemic has also prompted everybody to really seriously take a look at what they do in terms of pedagogy and curriculum and think deeply about that. And in the UAE, you have a clearly very ambitious innovation agenda across the whole country, but particularly with education and with KHDA, really, I would say from my observations, there's a, a big emphasis on innovation within your organization in terms of thinking about as a result of the pandemic, or even perhaps before, what KHDA is thinking about and investigating in terms of more of those innovations within education or schooling, or perhaps workplace development, organisational development, and all of those aspects?

Yeah, Tim, I think we started sort of looking at what the future is basically 3, 4 years ago. The government took a strong stand about we want to be into the future. You know, as Einstein said, the future is for those who can imagine it, design it, and live it. Live it, you know, and that's what's written on the facade of the Museum of the Future if you have seen that. So Dubai have done that and created, you know, ministers for the future and AI. So we started and there was some good attempts, let's say, you know, our 10X project where we want to be ahead by 10 years, 10X, and we started the Rahal, which basically, you know, you learn in your own space. Later on we had the RegLab where we look at future regulations in partnership with the provider directly, so to co-write the regulation if you want to say, let's say, with the culture. Also, we had later on the creation of the Future Council for Education among the Future Council for other segments of Dubai. All of these efforts have been done prior to COVID. So when COVID came around, actually we've seen how these efforts were amplified in a way that, you know, we can— Rahat could be scaled up because literally everybody was a Rahat because you don't go to school.

Yeah, of course.

In the sense, you know, the Future Education Council, we used to meet, you know, every month, every few months, and talk about it. But I found myself during the pandemic talking about it every single day because that's what the discussion, what the future holds for us. Well, the future of the pandemic is what tomorrow holds for us. So, and the RegLab, absolutely. I think we start looking at regulations, you know, during the pandemic. Yes, we have a regulation, fine, but they're not going to help us right now, you know, for most of the things we've done outside. I think those three files sort of were before, but it found their space And people can connect to those files more than any other time. And I think a lot of it has to do with living the pandemic and living the future and living uncertainty, you know, and trying to get on with it.

Yeah, we realized we had to be agile and pivot quickly, right? And one of those things I really appreciate about having been to Area 2071, you've got down there one of the corridors along the one of the walls saying, uh, co-designing the future in big letters. And, and I find that really interesting, that idea of co-design, bringing people together in order to develop something in a really collaborative way. And as you say, in terms of the Future Council, and I think that's something that really important now, and as we've seen with all these networks across the world with people discussing and trying to imagine what might serve our needs as we move forward. So I just wondered if you had any thoughts there about that idea of co-design and trying to act as a, as a kind of node in the network to bring people together.

Yeah, I think, you know, when we were— I mean, we used to do that even before the pandemic. We used to get schools together on our platform. It's called What Works, basically an appreciative inquiry. We realize in Dubai we are so fortunate to have such a diverse and at the same time such a small boutique system. So you have 300,000 kids, you have 200 schools, but you have 17 different curriculums from everywhere— the US, Australia, and everywhere. So it's such a rich boutique system, and we realized a long time ago that this system will only get better if we become the platform by where they show, they share what they are doing. Regardless of your curriculum, at the end of the day You are teaching kids, right? There is teacher, there are kids, there are— and we realized that early on that this is the key for the community and education system to get better. It is what they call the summation of the efforts, but it needs to be organized. So you're what they call your collective professional effort as teachers, as principals, as a government. It's the summation of all of that will give you a better system. And I think during the pandemic we have seen even more important how that platform— I mean, okay, it moved online and we do it what works on a specific topic, but we found it so keying when we were about to come back to school and saying, okay, here is the guidelines, here is the protocol. For most of them, their health and safety protocol is not as much as an education protocol, it's a safety and mask and distances. But how would you implement that? And this is where we realized how the school sort of came through, okay, we can do it this way, we can do it this way, we can do it this way. So I think that we find during this that we are really in this together, not because during the pandemic, anyway, we've been in this together for the long haul, it's just we've been challenged with something and now it's very specific and we need to come around it. Absolutely, I think we can all get better, whether pandemic or not pandemic.

Yes.

We are all professionally collaborate and create this sort of a professional capital, if you want to say. That's absolutely from— we, we realized that because this pandemic brought us closer than ever before, but also made us focus on what matters the most to all of us.

Yeah, that's very interesting. And I actually spoke with Andy Hargreaves last week about professional capital and I totally agree. I think that's such an important part of us getting better as a whole system in terms of co-designing together, is to bring those assets and build up the assets that we have. And as you say, even with regards to even health and safety, it's the people who really know what works are the people on the ground with the students every day, and we can harness some of those ideas. Yeah, great. And Perhaps then I can move on slightly because you mentioned that idea of regulation. And of course, you know, in systems we not only want the innovation, but we also have to have some kind of regulatory systems and accountability. And clearly KHDA plays that role as well in terms of inspecting schools. And it is quite a rigorous regime, right, in terms of the inspection process and high standards. And I just wondered what your reflections were, because you're known for being somebody clearly very committed to innovation and forward thinking and an aspiration for what might be next. But how do we balance that idea of actually seeing what's happening on the ground right now in terms of ensuring the standards and standards are being met whilst also growing and developing and experimenting? In a way, right? Because we can't find out what works in the future without some degree of safe-to-fail experimentation right now. And so I just wondered what your thoughts were on that tension.

You know, I mean, when, when we come to inspection, you know, I mean, or the quality assurance, this is what it is.

Yeah.

As you know, as the saying goes, you know, you need to measure what you treasure, you know. I, I think there, when we started this process 15 years ago, you know, we're coming to a landscape where we don't know the difference between this school and that school, and we needed to find information and not about as much as an input, as much as an output. What are you getting out of this school and that school as a parent? Because that piece of information was missing in a largely private education offering. So from the very get-go, we were focused absolutely on the outputs. The schools were free to do some of the inputs, and some, because of other regulation, they were not, maybe. So I think, and even before the pandemic started, we started looking at well-being as part of an output. You know, we started looking at innovation, we started creativity, we started looking at that. And we, before the pandemic, we thought, look, this tool has served us to this point, but going down the road, we need to start looking at how can we get more out of it, whether it's the same tool or change the tool. So the thinking process already started before the COVID I think with COVID absolutely emphasized that what matters to us is not only academic, and this pandemic was not about academic. At all, you know, it was about well-being and now you talk about it and this is what people will realize after this is all done with. It's not anymore the pandemic or the medical side that you should be worried about, it's about the well-being.

Yeah.

And this is what people were talking about. So absolutely, I think we will continue mainly on the outcome measurements and not for the sake of just purely measurement, for the sake of saying, okay, well, you know, this outcome was achieved because of that. Or this outcome achieved because of that, not the other way around. And absolutely, and I think this, this is, this is really not only for our quality assurance, but any quality assurance around the world, around education, will have to fundamentally change because the structure of education system will change. Okay, the change starts happening now. To what pace, what speed, that will differ from one place to another, but you have to realize that You have to change right now and you have to cope up with the new ways of learning.

Yeah, that's interesting, as maybe a shift from measuring and counting the inputs and even some of the outputs actually, but really focusing then on the outcomes, or in the NEASC or ACE learning language, the impacts. So what are the impacts that we're having on young people? And as you said, I completely agree, we have to know which processes and systems that we're putting in place are actually resulting in those impacts. Because if we're, if we're not sure, then we can't scale those in terms of innovation to other places, right? And, and share that good practice. Yeah, no, that's very interesting. And I know having visited your offices, clearly you have many of these things like wellbeing, for example, you really moved forward in terms of actually investing in what that might mean for a workspace I find that an interesting aspect of KHDA as well. Obviously it's not just a school network body, it's also an organization with employees, and it's an environment and a culture within a company or the organization itself. And I got the sense from visiting that you've really thought about that and invested in some of those things around perhaps using it as an incubator for thinking about what works again. But these ideas of open-plan offices and well-being as a high priority, as you move around there's gym equipment and, you know, lots of different services to support well-being for the employees. But also holacracy, because I know you've done some work experimenting with that. And again, I would just love to invite you to say a bit about your thinking behind that, as, you know, treating KHDA as an organization trying to work with the culture, but also maybe using it as an incubator for other innovations that perhaps could go into schools.

Yeah. And I think, you know, Tim, we started this way back for one reason, you know, for the reason that, you know, we need to see change happen and we need to practice. We need to practice. And I keep reminding, I don't know if I'm repeating the story, but maybe you've heard it before. You know, when a long time ago a woman went to see Mahatma Gandhi and, you know, took her kid with her and said, you know, please tell my kid he's eating too much sugar, it's not good for him. Madma said, "Okay, fine." He was puzzled for a while and then he said, "Okay, can you come back to me in a few weeks' time?" So, "Fine." She goes and she comes back in a few weeks' time and then she said, "Do you remember me?" He said, "Yeah, you are the kid who eats too much sugar. So where is he?" "Okay, here is he. Sit down." He tells the kid how sugar is bad for him and he should do this to avoid it and should do that. Give him some tips and off you go. Fine, but halfway back home the woman turned back and went to Gandhi and said, "Look, if it was that easy, why did you have to keep me waiting for all these weeks?" He said, well, it's not that easy. Ask me about it because I had to try it on myself before I preach about it. So I wanted those weeks to try it on myself. So it's the same thing here, you know, you need before you go in and telling people, you should try it. You know, it's not, it's not as selfish, but it's what you should be the example. You should try it for yourself. But also it's very important that when we've done all of these things, we believe as an organization, the best thing we have is the people we have. Yeah. And though, and the people we have And the creative, innovative, you know, people are coming out of colleges right now or changing to change careers. They want to understand for the traditional way, they want the new way. So it was in a way also a way to recruit the young and the brightest people. And the way to tell them is, this is how you're going to work, whether it's through self-management or through open space. So it's the same thing you want to do with the schools. If the schools want to do that because they want to recruit the best teachers or the best students, because Your hardware and software, kind of physical and operating model in the establishment, should tell a lot. So I think for, for the establishment or, or the schools who wants to be that the future, I think they need to exemplify that.

Yeah.

And this is maybe one of the things that we, we sort of experimented in a way, but also showcased and places that we learned that they didn't work that way for us. And as you rightly said, as you said, when you came in, you had that first impression But you also had a lasting impression afterward. And that's what the thing we would like to play our part sometime, not as a regulator or convening, but also as an organization that actually, yes, take it to heart to move, to take the go forward, you know, stretch the boundaries a bit, not afraid about failing and trying it on ourselves before we go on and tell you what to do about it. So yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Very good. I like that idea of being both an experimenter, but also a showcase. To kind of see what's working, but then also be able to highlight what hasn't worked. I think, yeah, that's really important, right, in terms of modeling as a system or an organization that you fundamentally— and for the young people we work with, we want to kind of role model that. And have there been certain things, for example, with the idea of holacracy and that whole idea of self-management which for me, I've done lots of work with Agile and thinking about the place of Agile in schools. And Holacracy has some commonalities there with self-managing teams and thinking about the structure of organizations in general. But have there been certain pieces of learning that you've already gained from your experiments with that at KHDA?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, look, we only learn from the things that don't work. That's how you learn, right? And I think for self-management, yes, we've learned. We've learned a whole lot. I mean, we're still learning right now, but one of the key points that self-management has sort of brought to service, that in the old system, which is not self-management by directed, people can hide behind things and can hide behind structure. Or the other way around, people who are accomplished, they are not coming out. So what Holacracy did, self-management brought the best out of people, but also showed Unfortunately, the worst out. So it's actually such a transparent system, it showed nobody can hide behind anything anymore. You are what you do, and that should be very obvious to people. So it did, for the majority of people it did. For the others, it sort of removed the blanket or the COVID if you want to say. But that's something we should accept at the beginning. We should accept that there will be X percentage of people We will be finding out about this, and some people will hide behind it. You know, it's a tax you pay, but you have to understand you have to pay that tax. And yeah, and we learn from that, among other stuff, like, you know, the open spaces, the things that we are working on, and we continue to work on. As I said before, we're only going to learn if we finding things that doesn't work, whether we knew this will happen or we don't know. But the best learning I've got is from the things we did not think about.

Yeah.

And from the people who we did not think about them that way, if you want to say that.

Absolutely.

My best learning always in life happen in situation where I don't expect it from the situation. Hang on a second, I went for that experiment for something. And that's usually the things that you want to look for because, you know, when something happens, comes because you didn't think about it. You didn't prepare for it. It's not the things that you prepared for, this thing, this is prepared for that gets you down or lifts you up in a way that you never thought about.

Yeah, thank you. That's really interesting reflections because I think that idea of unintended consequences somehow, you know, because we, we know we're living in this VUCA world and complexity, and I think there's a very real and strong dynamic now that there are so many unintended consequences of things that we think are going to work in this particular way, but actually there are these other things that pop up and we didn't, didn't expect and probably couldn't have expected. But the only way to really understand them is to actually move forward and try things and reflect and learn. Yeah. And that's fascinating. And that idea of hiding behind the structure, I think I agree that there's certainly safety in the structure. Very interesting. But I also, I just wondered if, as you were talking there, I was thinking that idea of transparency in relation to innovation and that idea of being transparent as an organization. Do you feel that that supports that innovation? Do you feel that perhaps that makes people feel a bit more risk-averse? Because if everything's on show and everything's transparent, do you feel that they can actually take that leap into that sort of unknown and innovate? Or do you feel that it actually does the opposite and makes them more risk-averse? Not wanted to try anything.

Well, you know, it's a very— it depends on a person, on the others, you know. And I think you find different people. So I guess it's for some people they want to go all the way out transparent, and some people want a little bit comfort factor. And I think it's good to be more sort of give the people the freedom, you know, give them the choice. Eventually they will come through, but you know, you don't want to pressurize them. And again, it's the outcome that matters. So I think it will depend from one person to other, as long As it's done for the right reasons. Yeah. And you know, not every time you'll do things right, but all the time you should do it for the right reason.

Yeah.

So I guess when it comes into transparency, it registers differently to different people and we need to give that differentiation in a way. And with the belief that over a period of time it should open up more, it should be more transparent, but that's something only with time and with trying things out, people get more comfortable of doing.

Yeah. Very good. And then I'd love to then just ask you a question about leadership and management in relation to that, because I think that's such an important piece of this in terms of people who are leading these organizations. And actually, some of these things we've been discussing here may be a bit uncomfortable to certain people who've a bit more used to and safe within that idea of a command and control management style. And Actually, some of these things require a little bit more letting go, you know, it's not, not irresponsibility, but that idea of letting go to some extent to allow things to emerge and experimentation to happen, etc. And I just wondered there what your reflections were about that in terms of the kinds of characteristics or skills or competencies that our leaders will need as we move forward into more of this kind of complexity and agility and responsiveness to change.

Yeah, and I think, look, this is a very important topic, you know, the leadership. And I think with the pandemic, it has showed what's— I mean, some— we're changing our even perspective. And there is no management school, there's no leadership course around the world will teach you. But I think the one thing that we also take strength from the leadership of the system itself, of Dubai itself, and our leadership has been really forthcoming for all these years when they wanted happiness is very most important. So our leadership and Sheikh Mohammed has been from the very get-go is pushing agendas, whether it's the first minister for happiness, innovation, not. And what we find here is the other way around. We actually, I don't know, elsewhere in the world you would go and you find people want to do this, but their leadership might, I don't know, it's very hard to. Here we have the other way around. Our leadership, alhamdulillah, mashallah, is really every day there is something new, you know, these sort of things. And we also somehow as a responsible trying to catch up. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So, but in a way it makes our task much easier. So if we are going to go into innovation and we talk about self-management and we're going to talk about this, well, the leader said try that. The leader said it's okay to fail, but to learn, because we sort of have an alibi for the things we're doing. It makes our job much, much, much easier. But that came from there. It would be difficult the other way around. So I think when we talk about the leadership, as we talked about school, it's about the summation, it's about the collectiveness that comes together, but it needs to come from the very top and need to come on the topic that matters the most and in times that matters the most. So timing and topics are very, very important. You don't want to miss the train, and you need to deal when you have crisis because this is where leaders come out, and this is where you believe sometimes in every leader there is a greater one. Yeah, that greater one only will come when the opportunity presents itself.

Yeah, that's fascinating. And I think actually that difference again in kind of agility, you know, a leader needs to be able to adopt one type of approach in a crisis, for example, versus when things are perhaps more stable. And promoting innovation, I guess, is part of that dynamic. You know, when do we promote innovation and how are we responding to the crisis first? But then actually maybe a crisis is quite a good time to start looking at what we can do differently to move it forward and all of those things that require different competencies and expertise from the leadership. But that's interesting that you have a mandate for innovation coming from the very top, and that's a useful kind of ecosystem to be working in. And then finally, I'd love to just ask you about teachers, because obviously, you know, they are, as you said, we are only as good as the people that we work with and who work for us. And we're trying to build that professional capital of our teachers. And the teachers obviously have had a huge and challenging situation responding within the pandemic and have responded incredibly in so many ways to pivot and adapt to distance learning with real challenges around engagement of students or trying to reach the harder-to-reach students and all of the different aspects that we know have been really challenging for our teachers. And again, that idea of well-being and supporting the well-being of students and, and teachers. Where do you see the role of the teacher ultimately now going as we come hopefully out the other side of this pandemic? Because I think that's, for me, that's a key part of this question about where education goes, because that role of the teacher is so central or has been. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on that and where that might evolve in terms of the different aspects of the role of a teacher and what that might look like as we go forward.

I think as I talked earlier when we started this podcast, and look, you know, we took things for granted. Now we appreciate the schooling is a place where the same thing that goes with the teacher. Sometimes we took it for granted, you know, we did not see what the teacher go through. And in this pandemic, it's not only about the teachers as a role or their role to teach your kids, but also their role to take care of their own kids at home and the family. So they were doing two at the same time, so a recipient and provider of the service. But this shows where really you need the teacher and you need to step up. And I think in the past we sort of, okay, well, you know, you drop the kids to school, you basically, you'll only hear what happens in the classroom when the kids come home and have a conversation over a dinner or something. But now you see the teacher life, you see them delivering to your kids, you see the preparation they do, you see the hard work, you see what they have. We actually sort, you know, we're living the life of a teacher. Yeah, through the pandemic, it really was awakening to many people, for those who took that role for granted. But it's also, it was great for the teacher because right now they are teaching kids at home with their family and they're seeing them waking up, doing all of that. You really don't get to see that part of the students, right? You see them coming and they cleaned up, they look nice, they're behaving in the classroom. But now they are in normal environment, which basically is— and I think one thing that we're always happy to have is the teachers we have in Dubai. I mean, we have teachers coming from 200 different nationalities. You know, they're coming by choice and they're coming and as we heard them before, they're all coming to Dubai to teach kids globally. So they're becoming a global teacher in Dubai and that's what was enriching their experience, you know. And I think with this also pandemic and also to deal with not only the kids but to deal with their parents and their parents' approach to the pandemic, whether they are sending their kids. So it opened up, it's not anymore the kid I am working with, it's the kid and the family. And, and not in a normal situation. I'm dealing with them and maybe getting exposed to what's happening at household and knowing the social and emotional component where they go. So it really have deepening their interaction between the teacher and home, which is very important and very essential. Because, you know, when I teach a kid, at the end of the day, he's a kid. So did he get a good night's sleep? Did he have a breakfast? Did he talk to his friends? Because that makes the learning different. When I come to the class, I don't know any of those factors. So I think, yes, definitely this pandemic showed how important, how crucial is the role of the teachers, and not only in the classroom, but above and beyond in the kids' livelihood, you know. So great appreciation has been given to teachers. We continue to go, and I think the interaction between the teachers and parents has not been like this before, ever. I mean, those teachers were dealing, you know, like CEOs or The principal, they were dealing with so many things, protocols, this, that, keeping, dealing with the pandemic, not anymore just teaching the subject itself. So it's highly, highly appreciative, and no matter what we say, we're still going to be short of thanking them, all the efforts that they have been putting so far.

Yeah, thank you. I totally agree. It's been a really challenging but enriching, but deeply challenging experience for many people. And as you say, the juggle of so many different elements has been really incredible. But do you see, do you see the role of, if we take it slightly removed from that kind of specific teachers who, you know, obviously doing this wonderful job, just thinking in terms of the role of the teacher, as you were talking about there in relation to well-being as one aspect, or in relation to content knowledge, or personalizing learning, or innovation? And do you see that role of the teacher as, as a kind of job description, if you like, evolving and changing in the future?

Absolutely, Tim Logan. And I think maybe this is maybe for me the most important part that I've learned during the pandemic, that The education system, the relationships in the education system, be the student, be the teacher, be the parents, be the school, that relationship over, I don't know, 100 years or so has become so exclusive in nature that this pandemic has really broke that exclusivity or opened it up. I mean, you know, nobody can convince me that this didn't happen, that a kid may be sitting in a class of his sister or her brother. They sat in that. Nobody can come in. The teacher did not teach other kids somewhere else, whether the husband not feeling well or whatever. All of this did happen. So the relationship we had that a kid can only go to one school, cannot attend multiple school in the same time. A teacher can only teach, let's say, a subject or maybe two, but have an exclusive agreement to teach in that school, in that physical place, not from across the world. Right? And the list goes on and on and on and on. But the system became so exclusive. And okay, if you want to also add the spices to all the whole thing, add the spices of examinations. It became also so exclusive. Yeah, right.

And absolutely.

So it's been such an exclusive relationship. And over time, it became more and more and more, which is— that's not what education is intended for. You know, if you want to go back again, is to bring out the best from within. To say, look, you know, you cannot be, you can't, maybe for reason you cannot be here, but you could be from Canada. You can teach the kids here. The kids here can learn from other school. The kid can, doesn't have to do 5 days, could do 3 days.

Yeah.

Choose the subject. Could choose one day I'm only doing the music, the second day I'm doing that. Why do I bind myself to one? Yes, the physical presence is important. But doesn't have to be in the physical same place every day with the same kids, with the same teachers every day.

Yeah.

Could be with different teachers. Every day, it could be different kids every day, it could be on the topic that— So that itself for me is the biggest disruption that this pandemic has— Yes, we were touching about distance learning or online learning, you can't, but we have never looked at the relationship that brings those parties together. And I think definitely whether it's next year or the year before, We have seen this exclusivity has been broken or has been opened up. And you're going to have maybe smaller number of teachers who picked up this and start teaching other kids or providing that other schools will start opening up. But absolutely, I think down the road to say I only go to one school every year or for my 18 years, it's not going to happen. If you as a teacher say I'm only going to teach in this school, that's not going to happen. You know, I don't know. I think, I think That is the biggest disruption that happened, I don't know, for the last maybe 100 years or so to our education. And it's much needed, it's much, much needed, Tim, because, you know, we talk about examination and, and the side effect on it on the social-emotional. We talk about schools becoming maybe more exclusive, more expensive because the infrastructure only, because teacher mobilities and scarcity of teachers because we wanting them to be in one exclusive place or travel around the world in one exclusive place or it's only combined with those who has those certificates and whatnot. So there is a scarcity of teachers, there is this, and I think this is where I find it great for teachers because they can be anywhere and they can teach what they want, when they want, how they want it. It's up to the parents to also choose what mode they want to learn. It's up to the kids also when they become more mature to choose and, and manage their time. And you talk about self-management as an employee, what Well, self-management should start in school, of course. And, and, and we've seen that with kids that are more mature, they manage distance learning better, but with younger ones, maybe they don't. So I think for me, that, that relationship or the disruption that's taking place is the biggest thing that this pandemic has, has shown us.

Yeah, fascinating. And it, I mean, it really has thrown the cards up in the air, right? And as you say, it's, it's quite exciting in terms of what what might emerge from it, but also that those boundaries have gone maybe between countries, and as well as that idea of also reaching places with high-quality education that perhaps couldn't access it before. And I know Sheikh Mohammed was also working on that with the online school of the future, to offer that high-quality education online to places that didn't have access before.

That's the digital school, and I work with the team. But if you think about the digital school, We in the last, I don't know, the last more than 10 years, Dubai Cares, we work together and we start building schools in the remote areas or that. But with pandemic, actually, we couldn't do that anymore. We couldn't. So how do we reach out to those places and how do we go into the refugee camps? Well, you know, if technology is available, somehow you can send the laptops, you can send that device, you can provide the content. So this is a much smarter way, much profound way, and deployment at no time sort of a thing. So that's how we sort of now we're looking at the digital schooling in a different model. Andal because these are, you know, places that desperately need education and the circumstances doesn't allow not only to build a school but doesn't allow teachers to go there.

Yeah, of course. Well, we can Zoom them in now, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you so much, Dr. Abdullah. Shukran. I really appreciate your time. I know you're extremely busy, so I just, yeah, I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Tim. I really enjoyed delighted because, you know, this is the kind of conversation, you know, where we need more of right now and we need to talk about it. And it's not one right or wrong anymore, it's about collectively thinking and reflecting. And we're still learning because we're still in the pandemic, we're not finished. I mean, we could have— now we talked about this, what we learned, I don't know, a few months, we said, hang on, we get that one wrong, let's unlearn that one and let's see it again. So it's a very life situation and I think, you know, it's sad, you know, the loss of lives and the stress we have and the different social and economical factors. But I think we need to make sure it's also— we learn from it and make sure it's worthwhile, you know, whatever we go through. So it's, it's, it's— yeah, we— I know for sure we're gonna get out of this, but I, I make sure that we get out of it better and stronger. And, and not only from, you know, medical side and having vaccine, but I think we should have the vaccine for our management, whether it's a schooling or whether it's government What is the management vaccine? That whatever crisis comes my way, I don't have to deal with the same thing all over again. I will do something differently. But I think, you know, as we're thinking about as much as medical PCR tests and vaccine, we have to think about social and emotional PCR tests and vaccine to make sure we get out of this.

More prepared for the next time.

Absolutely.

Wonderful.

It was a pleasure. Bye-bye.

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