Innovating Inside the Box - A Conversation with George Couros

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

Here's a question for you: who makes up the system? Like, when we say the system, it's kind of like saying, oh, I have no power to do anything different. And it's exhibited all the time, right? Teachers doing really incredible things, pushing the boundary and leading to a better life.

Hi everybody. Thanks for joining us again on the Future Learning Design Podcast. This week's episode is a fantastic and wide-ranging conversation I had with George Kouros, who is an innovative teaching, learning, and leadership consultant and speaker, and the author of The Innovator's Mindset and Innovate Inside the Box. He's worked at all levels of schooling from K-12 as a teacher, technology facilitator, and school and district administrator. He is currently an adjunct instructor at the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania. As the father of two wonderful children, Kalia and Georgia, George is driven to ensure that they and every student have amazing experience in their K-12 schooling, not focused solely on preparing students for the real world, but wants them to make the real world better. George believes that meaningful change happens when you first connect to people's hearts and then their minds. You can connect with George on LinkedIn at George Kouros IM or on Twitter @GKouros.

Hey, how's it going?

Hey George. Yeah, good. So thank you. It's brilliant to have you with me on the podcast and just wanted to start thinking about innovation because I was interested to hear you talking about the fact that you kind of created your own job title, you know, a few years ago before you wrote the book and then, and quite intentionally. I intentionally chose the word innovation, you know, in all sorts of industries, but particularly in education, it's quite a buzzword. And I just wondered whether you, since you published the great book, "Innovator's Mindset" in 2015, you know, has your view of the word changed? Do you think we're moving past this idea of it being a bit of a buzzword and actually into something a bit more authentic and a bit more important?

Well, I think when you talk about something, anything, not just innovation being a buzzword, I think that it's basically when people use it without really thinking about what it even means.

Right.

And that's like in all facets of education. So I'll give you an example of how like innovation, the terminology is a buzzword and not thought about. So you, you'll see like a bunch of directors of technology, right. And then all of a sudden to like modernize their job there, they become like the director of innovation.

Right.

And it's like, it's always the tech director. Right. But it's never the curriculum person. Like it's never the director of curriculum because the director of innovation. And why is that? Right? So like, to be honest with you, like I was really heavy into technology and then I became the division principal of innovative teaching and learning. And that was, as you said, you know, it was a title that we created as a school district. And we were always like, hey, we're preparing kids for jobs that don't exist while doing the exact same jobs we've always done. So we said like, maybe we need to rethink some of these jobs. But the interesting thing about it was You could not find anyone with innovation in their title in education before that time. And so what actually happened was a lot of school districts, you know, saw the work that I was doing and then they would just say like, we should just, you know, just let's make that job and then we can do this new things, right? And by no means am I saying like, oh, I am like blazing the trail, all these things or anything like that. This is like a huge team effort, you know, by my school district to saying like, we need to really rethink what we're doing. So part of what was interesting was the first thing that we were really think about was like, what does that even mean? Like we called it that, but what does that mean? And we don't want this just to be about technology. So it was really kind of part of my job was like defining that word and what did that mean. And so instead of like it being connected to technology, you know, how I defined it was basically new and better ways of teaching and learning. That's it, right? Because a lot of people that do really innovative practices don't see them as innovative because they're bad with technology, right? So we wanted people to see that they were already doing some of these things, whether they were good with technology or not. And what happens is that when you connect innovation to technology, we don't really think about the learning. We don't think about the depth of it. And some technology in education actually makes learning regressive. And so one example I always use is this is a Scantron, right? A Scantron makes it super easy to mark, but how it makes it super easy, Mark, is that only if you do multiple choice tests, which actually don't necessitate like really deep thinking, right? And so like, hey, it's super quick and easy, but you know, that's for grading, but is it actually better for learning, right? And I'm not saying don't ever use Scantrons or anything like that, but is that really what we see as an innovation, right? And I guess an innovation in the sense of new and better ways of assessing in some capacity, but doesn't actually promote deeper learning. So really it was partly the job was to like, what does this even mean? And what does this look like? And how do we get our staff to see they are innovating, but become more explicit about it to really kind of understand the kids that are in front of them, who they are, what they need, and really redefine practice. And so when I talked about innovation, it wasn't simply always doing new things. And I kind of talk about this as the idea of like invention and iteration. So sometimes it was like a totally new practice that we had never used before, or it was an iteration of something. So like, if you look at the original iPhone, that's an invention, that's a total innovation. But if you look at the most recent, there's still innovation in it, but it's an iteration of the old iPhones. And so there is a very distinct thing that's said in the definition that I share in Innovator's Mindset. It has to be new and better, not or better. And people will say, well, how do you know this is innovative? Right? And I actually talk about like what innovation is not. And I identify new practices, things that we've tried that didn't actually lead to better learning. Right? But you know, practices that you're using, Tim, you know, in your career, they might be what you deem as best practice, but they might be totally innovative to me, something I've never tried I'd never use with my students and vice versa. So it's really kind of understanding that it's, you know, the context of your situation. It's understanding where you are, but really ensuring that you're meeting and addressing the needs of learners. But I think too often what's happening is that it is becoming, as you said, a buzzword because people aren't putting thought of it. They're just saying like, hey, look at us, look at this cool thing we're doing with tech. Look how innovative we are. And we're like, yeah, but, you know, kids really aren't, you know, learning anything. I guess it looks cool.

Right?

Like it looks really cool, but like what benefit is that?

Yeah, it's shiny, right? But yeah, new and better is just, I mean, that cuts to the heart of it, right? But what I really like as well is that idea of creating new jobs, creating value, whatever it is, that idea of creation. I feel that like that comes across really strongly in your work. Everybody, you know, the professionals and the kids, of course, creating. And I don't know, that's what I hear from you in terms of why this whole thing is important.

Totally. Like if you have, so for example, and this is like, a lot of people don't see this as innovative. And a lot of educators that are listening to this will see like, I do that, right? So I have a kid in front of me who's struggling with reading, and I've learned all these strategies throughout the years of my process, but none of them work. None of them are actually reaching that kid. So I say, okay, here's what I know. Here's some of the stuff that I see might be working with this kid. So how do I like iterate what I know to help this kid become a better reader? Right? So like that process, there's no technology involved, I guess, you know, unless you consider a book technology, which, you know, at some point, obviously But it's really kind of understanding that teachers do this stuff all the time, but just saying like, hey, look, this, this is a reality too. Sometimes we know 6 strategies for whatever we're teaching. None of them work. We're like, well, it's just the kid.

It's the kid's fault. You know, too bad.

Like I tried the 6 and none of them work. So obviously there's nothing I can do. And so it's kind of like saying like, yeah, we're trying to find these solutions to help kids. Right. So it might not be strategy 3 and strategy 5, but it might be a combination of the 2, or it might be something that I might try this. I might do something different. Different here. And I think a lot of times it's like innovation pitted against traditional practice. And I've really worked on not using— and I like, people are so guilty of this and I'm going to be the first one to out myself. It's like, oh yeah, those traditional teachers. Right. And we say that in lieu of the term bad.

Right.

Because like we just say like traditional equals bad practice.

You know, like my parents read to me as a kid. I read to my kids. So traditional and an amazing practice. Why would I stop doing that, right? And so it's kind of like making sure that we don't equate traditional with bad. Bad is bad. Traditional is past practice that can work for some of our kids. And I think that's part of it too. But identifying like, hey, some of these traditional practices might not work and it doesn't mean they're bad, but they might not be good for that kid, for that learner, for that staff member. So we got to kind of like figure out how do we kind of iterate on the fly.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's like you said, it's context-specific and experimentation and learning, right? And that's coming with, from a background of technology, you've really moved clearly and put yourself in the space of a very human offer, right? In terms of what you do. And I think that's really interesting in the way that you've taken innovation and really moved it away from technology. I don't associate you with technology particularly at all. I associate you with relationships and empathy and the connection and the things that you talk about strongly in your narratives. But fundamentally, that's because it's about learning, right?

You're totally right. And what's interesting is that like, I am a trained— so my goal is to become a kindergarten teacher. I had no interest in technology, but I did like a little tiny bit of technology.

Yeah.

But a little tiny bit of technology in 1999 was like, I was a tech director in like 3 seconds, right? So I was like tech director, my first full-time job. Of a school, which is insane, right? But I had so little, like I knew how to get on the internet and work a mouse. So I was like, wow. And I actually, I remember I fought our university for making us pay $50 a year to have like a university-directed email. I was like, how dare you make me use this? So I think when I looked at it, I was put in a position where I knew a little, but I was kind of seen as the expert in a space where people didn't really know anything about technology. So I really had to like learn on the fly. I had to like learn from students. Like my first job, even though I was trained to to teach kindergarten was a high school technology job. And I went into a classroom knowing basically 2% more than the kids I was teaching, which was probably like a total of 5%, right? Like nobody knew anything. I was like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing. This is my first crack at a job. I don't want to blow it. I'm taking any job I can get. So I would like talk to the kids. I'm like, hey, does everyone want to do this? Can you figure this out? Kids just responded well to that. So for me, when you look at technology, when people say like, I'm not good at technology, does that mean you're not good at learning? And so when you look at this I look at it as just learning, adapting, figuring stuff out. And I think, you know, a lot of people that use technology are somewhat innovative because you could be using, for example, Google Forms today and then tomorrow they totally change the platform and they don't even tell you and you just got to figure it out.

Right?

You got to figure out that process. So I'm going to go back and I want to ask you a question. Since I do my own podcast, I want to throw some questions at you too.

Right?

So the way that I explained innovation, Right. The way that explained it, how I saw it, me saying like, hey, we got to figure out ways to make sure we help every kid. And so when you look at it that way, how could that— like, why, why is it even that perception of the term innovation as a buzzword? Like, and I know you're— I'm not saying you see it that way, but I know both of us know that it's a perception and rightfully so. But I think it's more how people use it than anything.

Yeah. And I think often it's seen as something you do, right? It's an activity. You know, it's something you plug into to kind of enrich or add to what's there. Whereas the way that you're talking about it is very much an approach to everything, right? I mean, that kind of connects in with the mindset idea, which I'd love to come onto in a minute. But I think it's that idea that it's just a way of working. As you said, you approach any situation with that kind of idea in that ability and that agility to be ready to adapt and respond and pivot where you need to and learn. And also that, openness and the ability to be vulnerable and say, actually, I'm not sure, like you did walking into that classroom, right? You walk in and you say, well, I'm not exactly sure. I know a bit more than you, but let's figure it out together. You know what I mean? It's like that vulnerability of being human and just saying, yeah, this is what we do. We're actually pretty good at learning together with other people. Let's do that.

Yeah. And so we don't use innovation as an approach to how we teach English or math, but it's like an options class. We're going to do innovation. Teaching class, right? So then of course, yeah, it's going to become a buzzword. But it's like, no, this should be kind of how we think about how we teach and how we go through that process. And the analogy I use, and I'm not like a big jazz music— I'm a huge music fan, right? But like, you know, jazz musicians are known for improvisation, right? Like, but it's because they know their basics so well. It's not like they just picked up a trumpet and just started doing stuff, right? It's like they practice years and years and years, but then they actually like iterate on the spot and they can make some really incredible things. And it's kind of like the music teacher who knows music inside out, knows all the strategies. That's when you actually have some opportunities to really go deeper into what you're doing and try some different stuff because you know the basics inside out. And so like I think a lot of schools, they're always trying to be, and this goes back to the notion of new and better, they're always trying to be on the cutting edge but they haven't become really good at the last thing. So like I talk about innovation as something that is focused on depth. Not on newness.

Right?

And I think, yeah, let's look at some new things within what we're doing and go further as opposed to new initiative, new initiative, new initiative. And let's never really get good at it. Let's never really know it inside out so that we're always, we can say to the public, look how forward we are. Right? We're not really good at it, but like just the newest thing.

Right? But there's something also really interesting what you just said about 'Cause I think you wanna get the basics right, right? As a jazz musician, you wanna master the basics. There's a real discipline of practice around mastering those basics. And then at a certain point, you're ready to begin improvising. But there's also a danger of getting stuck in the certain roots of the discipline and the basics, right? So it's that ability to hold both of them, that we know the basics are essential and the discipline and the deliberate practice and all that stuff is absolutely essential, but I don't want to also lose that agility and that flexibility of my approach at the same time.

Totally. And this is like one of the knocks on me, which is totally ridiculous because I've never ever said this, is like, oh, you're just about like kids creating all the time. I'm like, no, content's really important. Like you actually have to know content. So you'll never see me saying like, oh, why don't lecture? And I've seen people do that during their keynote. I'm like, okay, well that doesn't really make sense, right? I think there's really power in sharing information. There's this knowing your content, but it's actually going deeper. And John Medina, he wrote Brain Rules. He gave a really great analogy. He said creation without consumption is the equivalent of playing the air guitar. You might know the motions, but you don't know how to actually play.

Right.

And I was like, that's like a really brilliant way to kind of think about it. And Yong Zhao, I'm sure you're familiar with Yong. He said, again, he said reading and writing should be the floor, not the ceiling. And I thought, oh, that makes sense to me. Right? So like, of course, we want our kids to be able to— like, I've never been like, don't do times tables, don't know basic math facts, don't do spelling tests. It's just saying we need to go beyond because there's much more. Right? And really kind of revisiting and saying like, what are the basics anymore? Like when the pandemic happened, you and I popped on a Zoom. We didn't even think about it. But, you know, I've had meetings with people who don't know how to get on Zoom.

Right?

And it's like, okay, is that a basic now? Like when we don't have access to one another face-to-face, Do you need the basic skill of being able to pop on? Right. Like, and I think that's a really— should be a community-guided question. It's not like, here's George Kourous telling you what the basics are. I think it's like, hey, what are the basics right now? Do we just accept that the— are we still saying cursive is a basic skill or is it like a nice to have because we need to understand past information?

Yeah, no, absolutely. That ability to reflect on and question the basics while also embedding the current agreement about what the basics are and always thinking, how can we be new and better? And I know, like I heard you talking about your next iteration perhaps is thinking about the idea of reflection, right? And how that's an important part of the process.

Yeah. I think part of it is that really kind of understanding that you need to look back to move forward, right? Like one of the things I love about my blog, which I find really fascinating is I will take old posts that I wrote and then argue against myself. And say like, no, I don't think this anymore. Like, ooh, that tone, like that doesn't work for anybody. Like why did I talk like that? And like kind of seeing that learning over time. And I think that's part of it too, is that really you kind of mentioned this is really about how we think, this is about how we do it. And part of my growth is to document my learning. And like, I hate, like people will refer to me as an expert because I've written books.

Who—

what am I an expert of, right? I'm a voracious learner, and I think we need to all be that in education. And anyone I think that, you know, might be deemed as an expert, they understand that the more you dive into something, the more you realize you don't know, right? And I think that's where reflection becomes really handy because you're trying to ask people to try different things, changes, but not when they think that you just know the answers. So it's like, hey, I'm still struggling with some of this stuff. I'm still trying to figure this out. And by looking back, that's how you move forward.

Yeah, that's good. And as you reflect, I guess you get a perspective on where you are, where you've moved forward, but also what else there is out there to know in the thing that you're learning. And it's like, oh wow, there's all this stuff that I still— I'd like to get there. How am I going to navigate towards that?

And that is like, that is the process, right? Like, and I just posted a podcast about like, I've lost like, I think 87, 88 pounds since the pandemic. Fast, which is like crazy, right? But I really started losing weight in August of 2020. We're recording this in April, and it wasn't I just like put my mind to it in August and started losing weight. I literally document some like, hey, so like 3 years ago I tried this, nothing changed, right? Yeah, I really found that beneficial. I found this process beneficial, so I took that to the next thing. Okay, so then I tried this, nothing changed, but I took that, I took that And what I try to articulate when I was explaining this is instead of just seeing that time where I was trying to lose weight and it didn't happen and seeing like, what a waste of time, total failure, I said, okay, didn't work the way I want it to work. What did I learn from that? How do I take it to the next stage? And then basically all those failures, taking those little pieces and kind of going through that, then I applied it and then I started making that connection. But I think a lot of times when we see a failure, we just see it as a waste of time. Tim Logan, where did— can I ask, where did you grow up?

Uh, in the UK, in the east of England. Yeah.

Okay, so I'm gonna ask you a question. I'm, I'm curi— I'm really curious about this now. So have you ever had a teacher ever say this or a variation of this to you when you're a kid, like when you're a student? The bell doesn't dismiss you, I dismiss you. Did you ever have someone— have you ever had something?

Of course. And now, yeah.

Okay, okay, so now, okay, that, that actually is really interesting to me because You had that in the UK. I had that in Canada. I said that as a teacher, right? So what's interesting, you didn't make that up. I didn't make that up. Our teachers who said it to us never made it up. Somebody said that to them and then they just passed it down. And it's like, it wasn't like you went to education school and said, hey, you know what's a really good thing when kids try to bully your class? Say this, right? Like we weren't taught that. It was embedded in our experiences. And then we just kind of like pass that down. And so there's all this talk for years and years like, oh, when these new teachers who grew up with all these like technology and all these skills, they're just gonna like create this totally new way of thinking. It's like, that's not happening because they are teaching the way they were taught. And that little saying I just proved to you is how we just pass down stuff generation to generation to generation. And so we gotta give a little jolt on what we're doing with learning. And so like when I was a principal, We did digital portfolios and they're going to be in blogs. And it's actually, I started it first. I did my own. It's probably like people that know my stuff, it's georgekros.ca. I started it 12 years ago as an experiment to understand for students. I've just kept up with it for the last, you know, 12 years. And it was never like, I'm going to blog and everyone's going to know my name. It's like, hey, we don't know what we're doing here, so I'm going to go first. I'm going to figure this out. So we actually had, we brought our parents together and said, hey, we're going to try this with your students. But we want you to go first. Right? And parents are like, well, this is kind of freaky. Kids being online, posting their thoughts, all this other stuff. And we're like, well, just, you're going to go first. So we brought all these parents together and they started their own digital portfolios. And what happened was the parents were like, this is like so much better when I went to school. And then it's like, yeah, that's what we want. And the misperception of parents in many cases is like parents want their same education. For their kids. That is not true. Parents want what's best for their kid, but if they know no other experience, they default to what their experience was in school because I turned out okay, like I, I'm fine, why can't my kid have the same experience? But like, my parents are immigrants to Canada. They didn't come to Canada saying we want the education that we left. They, they came to Canada and said we want something better for our kids than what we experienced. Yeah, right.

Nice. And I think this also makes me think of your mindset idea as well because that idea that actually the system, if you can call it that, has kind of got very good at maintaining itself. And even you talked about the growth mindset, Carol Dweck's idea, which you built on for innovator's mindset, how that's just a fancy way of saying compliance. And I just thought, I thought that was a really interesting idea because actually the system just got really good at creating compliance. And if you know what, 2012, I was super into the growth mindset and I thought it was the best thing to come. Into education and you can see how that fashion has come through and actually it hasn't changed a great deal. It's actually just been subsumed into this kind of compliance model.

Yeah.

I don't think like Carol Dweck was like sitting and said like, how could I trick everyone to be compliant? Of course. Here's this process, right? So I think for me, how we utilize that perception in education to get like, hey, we know you hate math. So why don't you just have a growth mindset and then you won't hate it as much? Right? And it's like, no, I still hate math. Like, I don't have a growth mindset in some areas. Like, if you say to me, hey, you need to have like a growth mindset towards skydiving. I'm like, no, I have no interest. I'm not going to like just see if I can achieve it. I'm not doing it. Like, I don't want anything to do. So like, it's kind of like the mentality of you either have it or you don't.

No.

And like many facets of life, you know, we see this perception. But I think part of it too is I understand that we still have to teach math, right? And you know, you talk about the system, whatever, and like we can constantly change it. But how do I actually tie into what the kid is really good at? What the kid is excited about? I always give the example, I know this kid wants to be a YouTuber, I got to teach science, right? So instead of just like giving a kid a test on the science, I'm like, hey, I know that you want to be a YouTuber. Do you think you could actually explain this concept through like, you know, doing a video? You know, who are some of your one of your favorite vloggers. Can you do something like that? Explain the concept. So now the kid actually has the ability to pursue something they're really interested in while making sure the teacher has a check off that they taught the science. And my contention is that the kid will actually develop really powerful skills and probably know the science concept better than if they just did it on a test and regurgitated what he asked them to do. So like it's understanding, of course there's constraints, of course there's things that we have to do. Like I never go into school districts and say, don't worry about the curriculum because that's like an easy thing for an outsider to say. While you all lose your jobs, right? Like I don't want anyone to lose their job after my talk. But I think it is really kind of understanding that I'm not the person to say like every kid can be amazing at math. I don't believe that. And the reason I don't believe is because you can tell me I can be awesome at science.

Yeah. Okay.

I just don't ever want to be, right? But I think people being good at science is really important, but I don't need to be all things to all people, right? I could dunk a basketball. A lot of people can never dunk a basketball. Like I'm a tall guy, right? So that really benefited me. So I think it's just kind of understanding that like we're like trying to get every kid good at the same things as opposed to what is this kid good at and how do we develop that? Right? And understanding, yeah, of course you're going to teach curriculum, of course do this, but can we develop these kids and their passions and strengths as opposed to pushing kids to things they might not want to do but just calling it growth mindset to guilt them into like being better at this? And like, yeah, if I really wanted to be good at science, I'm sure I could, but there's other talents that I have, there's other gifts that I have.

And a huge motivation element, right, as you say. But if I could just then pivot to your most recent stuff with Katie Novak, because I think that's really interesting, because I've seen Universal Design for Learning, UDL, coming up more and more, which is great in the fact that people are becoming more aware of how important it is. And so I'd just love to ask you a couple of questions about that in relation to partly what we've been talking about, this kind of jolt of people, parents, administrators to think a bit differently, but you've called the new, your latest book, "Innovating Inside the Box," right? And I put a post out a while back about that kind of idea of actually, we do need to think differently, new, better ways of doing things with inside the box, right? But is that going to take some of the energy away from the bigger jolt of the system changing? 'Cause I think, you know, a lot of what you're talking about is different things around the system, which are restrictions and, you know, they're realities. The curriculum, the standardized testing, all the things that we know by making— I mean, I use this phrase, putting lipstick on a pig, right? Are we just trying to make the pig a bit more beautiful, innovate new and better ways to make this pig look beautiful? Or are we going to actually just think, let's change the pig?

Well, so here's a question for you. Who makes up the system? Like when we say the system?

No, no, absolutely.

Who makes it up? Like, it's like, it's kind of like saying, oh, I have no power to do anything different. There's a little bit of that sometimes when I hear this, right? So there are things that in 2008, maybe even earlier, that my school was doing when I was principal that are now just being embraced by other schools. Nobody was telling me you need to do digital portfolios. And I saw something bigger than, hey, like, like maybe there's an opportunity for some of our kids to become YouTubers. Like that's a thing that's happening. And yeah, we got to do good on these tests and I understand that, but can we, you know, start opening up some doors that didn't exist when I started going to school? So I think part of it too is understanding that you actually have a lot more power. And I'm like, I'm saying this to everyone listening and it's exhibited all of the time, right? Teachers doing really incredible things. And it's not to say that we shouldn't continuously push and continuously advocate But like here, I'll give you an example here that something I always want people to think about. So like, oh, standardized tests are bad, right? They're so horrible. Okay. So people are saying we need accountability to what we're doing in education. What do you suggest? So if we're not doing standardized tests, give me option B, give me option C, right? But it's like here, that's wrong. Don't do that. But then what is the option? You're not even painting a path to something different. So for me, when I was talking about— and I know like I keep coming back to digital portfolios, I think they're like really one of the most powerful things you can do with kids. I think it not only gets you to really have an understanding of learning, it helps a kid, you know, create their learning to be able to see their development over time. It could actually help with digital footprints. There's so— it can actually connect classrooms not only outside in a global environment, but within your own school, like science departments in high schools because their school is so big don't necessarily talk to English departments, but now I can start seeing what's going on in English through the kid's portfolio. See these different things, right? There's so many things that you can do with this. So what I wanted to do is saying like, hey, I understand the standardized tests are a thing. We still have to do them, but can we actually paint a model of something different that we could point to and say like, hey, why don't you look what we've been doing? We're still doing SAT, final standardized tests, but look what we're doing in this space that's helping kids, but also creating and opening some doors for them as well. And Katie Novak actually said this and she didn't say it in the book and I wish she would have. We had this conversation after and it was really good. She said, that basically this year in grade 3 is like the kids' only year in grade 3. This is it. So this is going to be their memories of grade 3. So while we continue to advocate and push what school can become, we still have to make sure this is the best possible year for that grade 3 kid. And I think that's just how I look at it. Like, yeah, there's things that are going to change. And in 5 years, that grade 3 kid is like, how can you be doing that in grade 3 now? We never got to do it. Right? Like, because like, I remember when leaving high school, It's like every person leaves high school, they go back 2 years later, like, how come you got like a new gym? How come you got this new thing? Right? How come you got this? There is always stuff that you didn't get that's way better. Right? But I think it's just kind of understanding that there are things within our control that we can do today and can actually paint the model of what school could look like. And I think a lot of times we just like, no offense, but I'm not depending on government to lead the charge. But this is like, this I'll never forget this. Years ago, we in Alberta, like Alberta is considered like one of the leading areas in education in the world. So I think for a time, if you took just Alberta, the province of Alberta in Canada and measured it versus like Singapore and things like that, it was like ahead. Like it was doing some really incredible things. And there was like this document that came out and it talked about like basically had like literacy and numeracy in the center. And then it had like these things that we need to develop. It was amazing. And people were looking at it all over the place.

Place.

It was like called the Alberta Competency Wheel. And I'll be honest with you. I was like, that's actually pretty good. That came from the government?

Are you kidding me?

So I was like, this is like visionary. This is like so forward-thinking. Like this is awesome. This is where we're going. So then a new government came in and it wasn't, it was the same political party, right? Not even like a different political party. So then they got a new minister of education. Now that new minister of education, they don't want to like build on what the last person because then they're not going to get credit, right? So then they just wipe that from the face of the earth. So like what's really interesting, if you Google like Alberta competency wheel, the only place you can find it is literally on my website. Like it was so ahead of its time. Even if you look at it right now, kind of going back to what we were talking about earlier, it's like we're just trying to get good at this, but you're changing this for political reasons. And then we have to go into a new direction, right? So I think it's like we're waiting for someone else to do something. And I'm like, no, I'm going to— I think I have a lot more power than that. Like I have a lot more influence to make something incredible happen. While— and this is like what's surprising people. I don't like getting in trouble. I'm not like going out and breaking rules. I'm like, hey, how do I like push this? How do I challenge this but make sure I still doing what I do? Because I don't want to lose my job. But it's— I think we can push and bend things and then provide models of a better way. I'm not just saying this is what I've done. I've seen teachers do this all over the world, that they are pushing the boundaries, not losing their jobs. Kids are doing amazing within the standardized assessments, of course, but also doing really incredible things and leading to a better life. And I think we just have more power than we give ourselves.

No, I totally agree. I think I know what you're saying. Absolutely. Even that language of talking about the system as this disembodied thing takes power away. And I completely agree. I think, I think people do have a lot more power than they realize. And I think policymakers or any of the people involved in the upper echelons of education are, are looking around everywhere for good ideas of what's working to do the best by our kids.

Absolutely.

No, really interesting. But I just, I just want to come back to this UDL think, because I think, like I said, I think that's really interesting and I'd love to talk to Katie about it specifically because I know she's a bit of a leading light.

She's the expert.

For sure. But I just wondered what, how you came to make the connection there between the Innovator's Mindset and UDL to create the book.

Well, it's actually interesting because Katie, she was speaking ahead of me at a conference and then I like went up to her and I said, hey, this is great. I love your stuff. I think you should stay and listen to me because I think there's so many connections. And she's like, no, I'm going shopping. So that was our first interaction. I'm like, okay, I'll send you a book. So, you know, and we just like, we're like brother and sister, right? Like we just like hit it off immediately. There's like a, there's an image we share, right? And there's like kind of a famous image. It's the people looking at the baseball game, right? I don't know if you know what I'm referring to. It's like one's taller and they're like, one could see over the fence.

I do.

And we talked about this picture, right? We talked about this. And it's like, not everyone wants to watch a baseball game. Like, you want me to give access to, you know, this baseball game, but like, I might want to do this. This kid might want to do this. This kid might want to do this. So it's actually not trying to get everyone to do the same thing. It's actually creating opportunities for them, again, as I said earlier, to really build on their own passions, build on their own strengths. And I think part of it too is when we connected the ideas of UDL and the innovator's mindset, that work is all focused towards that. Like, the one of the examples I use, I don't know what the— in IB schools or, you know, in the UK, they called multi-tiered support system response intervention. And what a lot of times what happens, and I think the intent is really powerful, right? It's like we're trying to support our kids, you know, especially kids who are struggling in different areas, etc. But what happens is we say like, hey, this is what this kid sucks at, they're terrible at this, here's what we're going to do to fix that kid, right? And think about it in that process. So I'm your superintendent or I'm your principal, and that's my approach to how I serve you. Like, hey, here's what you suck at, this is where you're terrible, here's how I'm gonna fix you by doing these things. Like, nobody would want to work for me, but we do that stuff to kids all the time, right? And it's not like we don't have educators that struggle in their jobs, things like that. The focus that I've had forever, and you know, Katie obviously shares this too because that's why we wrote the book together, is the first thing you should say is like, what is this kid really good at? What like gets this kid up in the morning? What gets them excited? How do we tap into that?

Right?

How do we bring this out? So like a really simple example, many people listening to this, and I don't know if this is like— I read The Great Gatsby in high school, and it's like half of North America that's my age read The Great Gatsby in high school. And my question is why? Like, why did we read The Great Gatsby? I'm not saying it's not a good book. I didn't like it.

Right?

Did we read it because it was because in the curriculum, all teachers must teach The Great Gatsby? Like every kid has to walk out of high school. Or did we teach it because the school already owned 100 copies and the teacher knew the book inside out? Right? So then I've written, you know, you reference this, I've written 2 books. If you said to me when I was graduating high school, George, do you ever see yourself writing a book? I would be like, Tim, if I read a book after this, you will be lucky. Like I hate reading because like What did I read? Stuff that I constantly hated, right? And in fact, the only stuff that I liked reading, I was discouraged from reading as a kid. Sports Illustrated, there's a gentleman named Rick Reilly and he wrote this like back page article. It was like a one-pager. He would talk about sports but he would make this emotional connection. And I would try to bring that to my classroom to read it. But I was discouraged from reading, probably my biggest influence as a writer to this day. Because it wasn't considered real reading because it was in a magazine, Sports Illustrated, right? So if you would have said to me, hey, I got to teach this curriculum. I know you love basketball. There's a book about Michael Jordan called The Jordan Rules. Do you want to read this?

Yeah.

I'll read this 10 times over and I'll know it inside out. And so I think it's like kind of honoring and understanding, you know, our passions, our strengths, and tying into that. And I think that's where like UDL innovator's mindset really comes in. It's like trying to get to that space or Katie will talk to you about expert learning. But it's like asking, hey, can you be innovative in this thing you despise, that thing you have no interest in. It's like, no, that's not how innovation works, right? Like there has to be some passion, some interest in that. But even when we're stuck, like, hey, this kid must be able to do this type of writing. Am I limited to making them write reading Shakespeare when they don't really connect with it? I think that's kind of like where we talk about that is there's different ways to get our kids to, you know, express, you know, represent their learning, how we engage them, how we truly empower them. And it's not like a one-size-fits-all, nor is it a one— like, it's kind of like we talk about personalized learning but standardized assessment, but it really should be like personalized assessment too. Yeah, I think that's where the connection comes in.

No, it's good. Yeah, no, that idea of— I like that baseball analogy because it's like, we'll provide multiple means of access this baseball game, but actually, you know, I don't want to see that. I want to see somebody who's like—

I don't— I hate baseball. So yeah, exactly, I want to get the bus, right? Right. Yeah. You know, or I want to do fine arts or I want to read a book. And I think people have just so accepted that, and I understand the meaning behind it, but like, it's like we're trying to make like cogs in a machine. Everybody, like, we want to personalize learning, but we want everyone to walk out having the same interest, having the same abilities. It's like, no, that's, that's, it's a different way of thinking now.

Yeah. But it's, but it's also about the context and the meaning as well, isn't it? Because like, oh yeah, sure. Like a kid might say, I I don't really like maths until they find the thing that, you know, maybe they're super interested in cars, engines, whatever, and then they'll discover there's a piece of maths they really need to know in order to solve this problem, to fix the engine, or what, you know, whatever it is. But it's like, in that context, that has deep meaning for them, so of course they're going to learn it, and then they'll be super motivated, and they'll, they'll do it deeply and quickly, and it will be— they'll get a lot out of it because it's contextualized in the thing they want to do.

Well, I guarantee you a bunch of kids right now will say they hate math, but they love Bitcoin. Like they're very interested in like cryptocurrency, things like that. But they'll also say like, "Oh, I hate math," and not see like the connection. Right? And like you said, what you have to be able to do is know the kid so you can bridge that connection. And this is like, I've had lots of conversations about this. Like you'll hear about class size, right? And you talk about a system driver. So you'll have like a government official saying like, We need personalized learning. We need to know our kids. We need to do all this stuff. Everyone agrees with that. I don't know an educator that says it's not important to know your kids. They're saying the same thing as a government official, but then that same government official say like, "Hey, class size doesn't actually show to have any difference in teaching learning." So it doesn't have any difference whether I lecture 30 kids or 50 kids, but if you want me to know every kid, then it does matter. So you're pointing to research that points to an old context of what you want me to do. This is kind of like saying, hey, Blockbuster used to make a ton of money, so it will continue to do so in the future. No, that's how it used to make money, but the future in front of you is changing. So you have to understand that that context is not going to matter after a while.

But you don't see that if you don't drop everything and reflect, right?

And there's your—

100%.

100%. Good reference. That's a good pick-up.

I thought you'd like that.

Yeah.

Thank you, man. It's really, really a joy to talk to you. I really appreciate your time. Really interesting conversation. So thank you so much.

Hey, Tim, where do I have to go? Nobody has anywhere to go right now.

Thanks, man.

All right.

Hey, thanks, Tim. Thank you.

Cheers.

All right.

Bye-bye.

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