It's going to take all of us - A Conversation with Kevin Simpson

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

Just think about the number of teachers or leaders who haven't progressed because of, you know, something that's discriminatory that's happened. And so for us, it's like being in those spaces and places and dreaming collectively, um, and also individually, and then letting that be the driver for your work, being an advocate for change, being willing to engage in those, you know, courageous conversations.

Hi and welcome back. Thanks for joining me for another episode. This podcast is brought to you in partnership with Notosh, and I'm your host, Tim Logan. This week I sit down with Kevin Simpson, who is one of those rare and special people who thrive on connecting others and bringing people together around shared causes and visions of a different kind of education system free from injustice and discrimination. Kevin is the founder of the Association of International Educators and Leaders of Color, and through AIELOC, one of the initiating partners of the International Schools Anti-Discrimination Task Force. Alongside ECIS, Ecolimp, and the IB, their collective aim is to make schools truly diverse, inclusive, safe, equitable, and welcoming for all students, staff, and families. Kevin owns and operates KDSL Global, an international education consulting company which launched in 2016 in the US and the UAE. He's also the co-founder of the UAE Learning Network. He leads the ASCD Connected Community for the GCC region and is the co-founder of Resourcia.

Hey Kevin.

Hey Tim, how are you doing?

Good.

Nice to see you.

You too, man.

We've known each other kind of at a distance for quite a long time since our days in Dubai in the Middle East. So it's a real, real pleasure to be able to sit down and properly have a chat. So thanks.

Definitely. Thanks for hosting Tim and for, you know, this platform that you have and I'm looking forward to today's conversation.

Good. Yes. Well, so am I, because I don't want to hold back. I think we should like really dive into the deep because I mean, you are doing such amazing work bringing different groups of people together around really, really fundamentally important issues. So with, I know, like back in the day, or still maybe with KDSL Global, but particularly now with the Association of International Educators Leaders of Colour and with the Anti-Discrimination Task Force. So I mean, and many other things, I'm sure. So, which I'd love to get into because you're an action-oriented guy, as I see, you know, getting stuff done, but really importantly, but I think what I'd love to do if we can, just before we go into some of that action is to just really talk about the, the thing that we're targeting with the work and on your association website, on your DEI policy statement, you state that we acknowledge systemic racism and white supremacy culture as a serious pandemic in international education that must be dismantled. Now that's an amazing sentence, incredibly powerful and packed full of some concepts that make people a bit uncomfortable sometimes, particularly white people like me, right? You know, there is something that we need to talk about that sometimes is difficult to talk about. And I, as I said in our previous exchange, I think systemic racism is something that people are becoming more comfortable talking about. But this idea of white supremacy culture still, I think, is really challenging for people. So I'd love if we can just to spend a bit of time on that. So yeah, maybe you could just like give us a little bit of a sense of how do you talk about that? How do you bring it up for people who perhaps, you know, are kind of new to that as a concept?

Yeah, thanks, Tim. We, and I think part of the work that we do at the association, as you said, Association of International Educational Leaders of Color, or AILEC, is starting with, I call it the 4 A's. And so the first A is acknowledge, and that is sort of state who and where we are and look at our history, herstory, theirstory, consider things in terms of leadership, in terms of recruitment. So we're considering the life of your organization, as we like to say it. And one task we always say is have anyone from your school, your site, write down who have been the leaders at the school since the beginning and see the makeup of the leadership. Look and see things around your board at the school, things around policy, things around curriculum, doing audits. Look at your libraries and look and see whose voice dominates. Look and see whose voices may be missing. And a lot of times that's for the most part the data that we found, or the quote unquote street data, as they call it, that we find from individuals we work with is it tends to be very centered around Western ideals, what's centered around Europe and centered around, you know, what would be known as a white supremacy culture, which is this sort of baked-in belief. A lot of times they say it can be invisible. It's so prevalent that it's there that we don't even sometimes name it. We don't even know it at times.

Exactly.

And it's a culture that anyone— so it's not just, you know, white folks that are embedded within the culture. It's a lot of times it's folks of color because of our own upbringing, our own schools, the ideology, the institutions. And so it's that the ideas, the thoughts, and the actions— there's this sense of this inferiority and superiority that goes on. And I remember when I was in university, we This one course we had talked about like racial identity and it was like this racial hierarchy that our professor was writing on a board. And we were all like, you know, and she literally, she's just ranked races based on just data and the study that she did, whose voices and who dominates. And so for us, when we say, you know, white supremacy, we know that there's going to be this, oh, what do you mean white supremacy? I'm not racist. I'm not a part of a, you know, a group who's historically did something extreme. That's not what we're saying. You know? So again, it's a lot of times it's depending on how how it's presented, because we've had, you know, heard schools that don't want to mention it, don't want to say it. And again, going back to A, acknowledge, it's one of those things that if we can't say it, we can't cite it, then there will be no change. Then the voices in the library and the books, the curriculum, you know, our interactions that we have with members and non-members every week, from LinkedIn to conversations to snapshots that they send us of interactions with recruitment companies, for example, who are blatantly saying, oh no, no, no, we prefer a white face. Oh no, no, no, no, you have to have blue eyes. Oh no, no. And it's like, where did that come from?

Still now.

It's still— oh, I'm talking about last week, Tim Logan.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It's incredible, right? And I mean, I would just from where we met in Dubai, I've been on the receiving end of the other side of it, right? Because I look like I'm British, I'm white, I'm male, I'm an educator, I've had some leadership experience, like the recruitment possibilities for me in a place that really kind of celebrates that profile is so unbelievably wrapped up in privilege. And it's actually, what do I know about education? That's kind of irrelevant at the beginning, right? Because it's, I've got exactly the profile, whereas other people who don't have that profile, much more difficult time. And I know, I mean, I think that was the inception of ALOC, right? Was your experience of hearing exactly, and I've seen it. Not just in that region, but you know, it happens all over, I know. But I think if I can, one of the things that's challenging about the phrase white supremacy culture is these kinds of associations of the Ku Klux Klan and this kind of really extremist white supremacist idea. And that's not what we're talking about. But as you say, is there's this invisible baked-in bias, right? And so I don't know, maybe you could speak to that kind of, it's not the extremist end. Clearly that exists and that is unbelievably objectionable, but this is something else. This is a culture, right?

Exactly. Like I said, like the life of the school. So when a lot of folks started doing audits, you know, years ago, and again realizing that within our libraries, within our— or again, things that just people going about everyday business but not really considering, you know, wait a minute, like there's no— and again, not just on the gender side, because it might be, wait, we only are centering males, or wait, we're only centering, you know, this population. But again, it's looking and seeing across life. And like I always say, like, looking historically and looking at, see, like, who's— like you're saying, who's the profile of a leader typically in international schools? And there's a profile, and there's data that's been done. CIS, Council of International Schools, has did it. We did data digs, and it's been across, I mean, from Asia to Africa, all types of schools, that there's a certain profile that's expected when you say a leader of a school. I've had people been told that, you know, I was told I wasn't American enough, I wasn't British, you know, and it was like something around their identity. It's like, what, because you wear a hijab? Because, you know, you're a woman? Because you're, you know, brown? Like, what? You know?

Yeah.

Or the wrong passport, right? I mean, that happens a lot.

Oh, again, still a thing. Like, again, people like, I was asked what passport, you know, they didn't even ask me about my qualifications.

It's like, yeah, I mean, we laugh, but actually, I mean, it's so baked in so many of the biases. And it's, as you say, if it remains invisible, if we are unwilling to talk about it, then we will never bring it to visibility so that we can actually, I mean, it's not like we're just going to change one policy and suddenly something will shift. And the other thing I think is important, which you kind of said, but I just wanted to draw a line on it, is that it's not about individuals. It's bigger than all of us. And that's why I love, you know, I hear you use this phrase all the time. It's going to take all of us because it's bigger than all of us. Right. And it's a historic development. Of a cultural dynamic that if we can't see and if we can't talk about, then we'll just, we'll stay there.

We'll stay there. Well, anybody can allow that to persist. You know, it's not just the, it's white people. I know it's anybody that can allow when a comment comes out, when feedback is given and we know it's like, wait, that doesn't sit right. And like you're saying, that was the inception. That's the how ALOC began. You know, we had a colleague who I was her sponsor and I was checking in with her to see how her pathway to becoming a, a school leader was going. And she was like, yeah, I was told by this company, don't apply, they want a white British man. It's like, what? In 2017? What? You know, I was just like, who said this? I literally was like a Facebook group set up after that. Cause it was like, is this the experience that people are having? Because again, I was like away from that in terms of that world of recruitment and hearing that consistently. And I'm just like, yeah, there's no time for that. And again, beyond qualified. So it's like no one even looked at the resume or CV. It was like no even interaction.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, one of the other things I was interested to talk to you about as well, because I think this is something I've been kind of thinking about as well as I've had different conversations with people in often the kind of racial justice conversation comes, and I absolutely hear what you're saying about the intersectionality, like it's not just about race, it's about gender and it's about sexuality and all these other things, right? But there's often, when it comes to the racial justice conversation, there's a lot of people in the US who are obviously fighting hard, working towards something very different from the US context. And I wondered, how does that manifest in different cultural contexts? Because clearly the US has its own unique cultural history, deeply, deeply problematic, and it's connected to other countries, obviously, globally, the slave trade, et cetera. But I wonder, as you are doing the work with international schools all around the world, how does it manifest in different ways? Because I'm sure, as we've said, in the Middle East or in India or in different places, there are different ways that kind of exclusion happens and then prejudice and discrimination happens, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

And you're right. And I think that's one of the, you know, I would say mythbuster, you know, that racism is a US problem. It's like when I, when I say the pin will drop and everyone in the room will turn around when you hear that, like, really? You know, the last we checked, you know, A, racism travels, B, anti-Blackness is global.

You know what I mean?

So I'm like, I'm not getting messages from the US. I'm getting messages from China. Africa, Asia, you know what I mean? And again, these are all— it's not always Americans, you know. So I think, of course, yeah, that myth literally is like, yeah, that piece on, you know, anti-Blackness and that piece on racism is like, it's global, you know. People are interacting. We're doing upcoming in April, Tim, a session on racial slurs in international schools. That did not come out of an American or U.S. These are coming out from different international schools, you know, and from across cultures. And so you're right, I think the thing for us that we look at number one, and I'm trying to educate folks on is look at your culture, your context where you're based, and guess what? They probably have anti-discrimination policies in that country. And that's number one. So that tells you alone that something has happened, something goes on in those different places. And then of course for us, it's like, does your school have one? Because in some situations, schools may have statements around diversity, but it's like, do you have a statement around, you know, that our school is anti-racist and we want to ensure that in this environment that everyone feels, every single culture that we interact with that comes through these doors, from families to the board, that everyone, you know, has this. And again, we go beyond racism, across the board, sexism, you know, sexual orientation, that everyone feels comfortable. And then they feel that in our scenario situation that they belong. So I would say like, look at me locally and see the country that you're in, what are the laws they have, because they all do.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I was actually— I was really interested to hear that you're back. I hadn't realized this, but you, you have a background in social policy, right? So I like, that's another thing that's interesting because particularly with more conversation around DEI, there is a potential for, we're gonna do this, we're gonna write the policy because we have to, because it's now like a widespread expectation that we all do this and it's gonna be, you know, I don't wanna be too cynical, but that there is a, a kind of a policy coverup in a way. It's like, yeah, we've got a policy for that. Like clearly that's happening. But then when you look at the actual culture in the organization, it is not that it's very different. So like, how do you kind of address or work with those dynamics?

Yeah, and you're right, it is a— because it can be quick to say, okay, we did that, we wrote that, it shelved, you know, versus again, like, number one, like, how did that come about? Like the why behind it. And then like you're saying, like the monitoring, the checkup, it's not just a— and I think that's similar to, you know, with visions and strategic plans. It's like we wrote it, absolutely, we pull it out when the accreditation comes, we pull it out when you ask about it. But it's like how to make sure that it is ever-present, you know, around our entire community. And that everyone knows it and follows it, and that everyone can speak about it from our early years. So what does it look like down here all the way up to our alumni, and everyone's aware? Because I think that's what we saw a lot in 2020, where a lot of the international school alum and students were saying, wait, what are you making a statement about? It's like, wait a minute, hold on, that, you know, you really saying something? It's like, no, this is really what, you know. So for us, it was like, wait, listen, we really need to listen to the students. We really need to listen to the alumni because they've been exposed to the system. They went through the system. Yeah. You know, it's like while some schools are saying, oh yes, we are this, we believe in this, it's like the students are saying, you know, calling us out.

Yeah, absolutely.

Powerful piece. Your clients are telling you something different.

No, absolutely. There's, I think there's also an interesting piece about what it's possible to say in this organization as well, right? So as you know, the, our point about white supremacy culture, right? It's difficult to bring up in certain contexts, right? But equally the other side is like, sometimes I think people feel in this work that their language is being policed, right? There are certain things they can't show up authentically and say.

Yeah.

And so I think there's, there's something interesting in there about how do we show up Authentically as, as people recognizing that we all fundamentally have some biases in baked. And how do we bring those biases to kind of visibility without doing it in a really, in a violent or offensive way that comes out in anger or in unaware reaction or whatever. How do we bring it out in a way that, and create a culture where it is possible to be really honest about like, I don't know how to navigate this. I've, I've never experienced you know, racial injustice personally. How do I identify with you and you have, and how do I hear your story and all of those things? So I don't know, there's something there which is difficult to lead, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And I always say, and I, you know, I think about some of the like phenomenal folks who we collaborate with, Dr. Emily Meadows, Jane at Council on International Schools, Liz at International School Services. I mean, constantly show up, you know what I mean? I think that's part of it. Constantly show up and show up as a learner. I think that's the biggest piece. And I, from that as a learner, as an empathetic learner who will listen fully, but again, then our, one of our A's also won't just stay at the listening and learning, will also take action, you know? And I think that's the big thing. But any, so I think that's the, if I'm in a new course or I'm in taking on something new, you know, in the math work that I do, it's like going through and thinking about myself as a learner.

Yeah.

But also like I'm the type that I wanna dialogue and talk to folks. And so I think the, and I, I mentioned those things because those organizations from Dr. Emily Meadows set up the Whiteness Accountability Group. So she's like, hey, white folks, international school, if you feel like you're uncomfortable and, you know, and it's been going on for like 4 years, like, here's a space and place just for us, accountability, but also learning, you know, so that we're not, you know, engaging, but we're growing in our confidence to talk in these conversations. But also, you know, saying that there's a space and a place where you can rehearse, you can make mistakes, and we're going to make sure that, you know, you're good, you know. And I appreciate that. But also, like you're saying, AARC is for everybody. Our big thing is like, why would we be an organization that racist against people, you know, because people read like, it's like, we don't want that. So why— so people read Education Leaders of Color, we have everyone, Tim. Membership runs the spectrum, you know, some folks who identify as allies, the co-conspirators, folks who are like, look, this is going on in my context, I've noticed this in my community, and I'm working to do something about it. And they come from the community visioning. So some people think that, oh, I see this, but yeah, there are specific groups within that are focused on like women and focused on like Filipino. And community visioning conferences Like, why would we be discriminating? We don't want discrimination to exist in the ecosystem.

Yeah.

No, absolutely. As I say, that's what I really have appreciated about knowing you and understanding your work is that openness, that kind of learning disposition, as you say, that showing up in curiosity and love and just openness to learn and not creating enclaves where, you know, yes, it's important to have some spaces where people can, as you say, kind of get things wrong. But I think, you know, I think more and more those spaces should not be separate spaces. They should be, you know, we should be able to It's hard to do, but a culture in the space where we can show up and get it wrong, put our foot in our mouth and get it wrong. Because otherwise we end up watching our words so carefully that we don't say anything, right? We're just, we're not even showing up as human beings because we're watching what we say so carefully that there's no emotion there. It's just kind of, it's a fear of getting things wrong, particularly when it's visible and public. I don't know. It's a challenging thing to pull off though, right?

Yeah, and I always, I come back to that is for me, I think, you know, I remember reading and reflecting on different leadership styles. If for this, I really think about the learning leader, you know, the leaders who's willing to take those risks, the one who's willing to say, I don't know, you know, I, I have a question, I want to know more about this. And I feel like those are the leaders who have progressed the most, to be honest. Yeah, to be like, hey, I know, I know a place in space, I know some thought partners. Oh, this International Education Leadership Group is having this conversation, let jump in, you know what I mean? So I think those— just seeing people progress and like you're saying, people who might not understand fully injustice and racism but have been showing up in spaces and places, or what can I do more to ensure that I'm mentoring folks that don't look like me? Okay, I'm not mentoring. Again, let me do my own audit because again, we all said the work starts with myself. I have to look at myself and say, okay, what work am I doing? Who's not being centered in the spaces that I'm in? And what questions do I need to ask and pose? You know, it is interesting. I've turned down a lot of speaking things because, you know, I I started to ask the questions. But again, I wasn't doing that 10 years ago where I'm like, you know, I want to make sure that representation is there. So can you share more about the panelists who are going to be there? You know, because I want to make sure if it's all guys, we don't have a woman. Like, there's only certain voices. Like, but yeah, it's creating the culture, and part of that is the self-work, the work that, you know, we do as individuals.

Definitely. Yeah, no, absolutely. So I mean, as I said at the beginning, you are— and you said in your— one of your A's is action, right? And you are, you are just out there getting stuff done, which I so respect and appreciate. So what, yeah, if you could just tell us a little bit about what's coming up, what the interesting projects you've got going on with ALOC and you know, how can also people potentially get involved or yeah.

Perfect. Yeah. So we have a lot going on. So we just turned 7 years old, which is again, time out of nowhere.

Happy birthday.

Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. So 7 years old, we did a lot in 7 years. I always say like we're a volunteer organization. People sometimes don't realize that, like it's again, it's a group of folks who from from all backgrounds, all cultures, who again just recognize that we want a different ecosystem. We know we, we listen to students, we listen to parents, we listen to teachers, we listen to folks on boards and community members, and it's been an overarching, you know, song from the choir that we know we need to do things differently. So some of the things we're excited about, um, which is a lot— we, we started the first Aspiring Leaders of Color program. We are in cohort 3, which is our largest. We have 15 individuals, and these are folks who want to at some point shift into whether it's a director position, a principal type of leadership position, coach. And so we're also seeing traction, like people are becoming assistant heads, people are becoming leaders of SDN at the same time simultaneously. And that came out because we were in a lot of conversation around that pathway. Like we don't see a pathway to leadership, or we don't see people from the global majority applying for positions. And so Dr. Nadine Richards and I have been engaged in that work the last almost 4 years. One thing we're excited about, aspiring teachers. So if you're an aspiring teacher of color, we're offering free membership into ALOT and you could be anywhere in the world. Folks in the UK, Australia, just all over about their programs, um, but also sharing AI. Because again, I think we hear often that exposure, like how do we make all kinds of people aware of international school opportunities, you know. Our thing is like how do you plant the seeds earlier around, you know, what's available. Um, this year we started our first SUNY Buffalo State University DEIJ certificate program, and again, open to anyone. And you don't have to be a quote-unquote DEIJ leader. We have folks that are teachers in here, people who are, are leaders, and they don't have the title. But again, this was You know, we saw there's different programs on offer. We didn't see anything specific for international schools. And so we're in cohort 1. We had a large waitlist. So yeah, so this is going to be an ongoing, sustained program that we've, you know, felt was needed. And then we have our research collaborative. They're doing some fascinating work, Tim Logan. I mean, these are folks that are graduating with Ed.D. and Ph.D. programs that are studying, have questions and topics specific to international schools that have never been looked at. And so again, giving them space to, they're doing things such as writing workshops, but also presenting their research from conferences to our community visionings. Yeah. We had our first in-person conference, which we're excited about. I was in Hanoi, Vietnam in January.

I think we were talking about that. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And our advocacy work. And again, I think going back to what I said, like ALOC started because of, there was an advocacy component, you know, obviously it was a recruitment, but also advocacy component. How do we advocate for others, for each others, for ourselves? And so we're growing with the council, a collective that'll be out because again, we're seeing that need, you know, the messages that we get from all over again with the evidence that goes with these messages that are like, yeah, here's what's going on. And then like, we're excited, Ellen out of Australia, we've been collaborating with for the last couple years on again, thinking about like those voices. Benjamin Daxter, he did a session at our first virtual conference and he asked his scholars at his international school, you know, what they learned and what they knew about those who identify as First Nations and throughout their history and schooling, you know, people who they knew and can identify. And it was just like the data was like, whoa, we really got some work to do again to make sure that that representation, because I was like, yeah, the way to, you know, American Indians and First People were presented in our history was like they're in the beginning of the book and they disappear unless there's like war and conflict. So again, think about the presentation. And so again, normalizing Native voices and, you know, Native authors, but also consultants. We have folks that are on our advisory council board that are involved that identify as Indigenous and First Nations. Yeah.

So just, just fantastic. Amazing. No, exactly. You're a busy guy. No, it's so good. And I mean, just if I can, on that point about Indigenous voices, I think there's something really interesting there because I've been, I mean, I've been reading a lot and we've been collaborating with, with different people. We had Ilarion Mukhulev from the Festival of Hope, who's the leader of the Global Network for Indigenous Learning and Lifeways. Super interesting. And then some amazing people from Navajo Prep, Kevin Belene and Watson Whitford, one of the students. So, you know, really fascinating to engage and learn. But also there's a really interesting kind of question for me about how we convene, right? How do people come into the different spaces? Because there's a lot of built in by some of those invisible framings and structures that are in a space, right? When people are coming into, you know, a kind of a more of a Western education space or whatever from an Indigenous space. And it, there's a lot of really interesting learning I feel to be done there about how, how to avoid kind of tokenistic voices or co-optation of ideas. There's a lot of people really interested in Indigenous ideas now because clearly, you know, things aren't going well with the climate emergency and things like that, but trying to do that in a way that doesn't once again colonize and co-opt ideas, like, is, I don't know, it feels like a, it's a really challenging thing to do from a genuine space of curiosity and learning, right? Yeah.

And you're right. And we, so one thing we have is, you know, we do land acknowledgements in public appearances and in virtual spaces. And our big thing was that, was that those land acknowledgements, again, the A, acknowledge, can become performative. So it's like, what are you doing beyond? Going to the other A, action. What action are are you taking? So we, you know, through some of our learnings a few years ago, wrote what's known as our Beyond Land Acknowledgement. And that tells specifically what actions we take beyond just stating this is the stolen land I'm on. And so it says like some of the things we do with, again, like around our leadership, who we have, we invited in, again, making sure that when we looked at leadership, do we have that representation across and that we have Indigenous voices that are represented, we work closely with, but also on the learning side. For us, it's going back to that piece that I think you wrote down, the commitment. That's part of that commitment. It's not just a one-time tick a box, but it's like, how are we committed? And then how are we financially investing? That's another piece. So it should be a financial investment. And again, sometimes a lot of stuff we do, it might not be public, but there's again these pieces that are going on that, you know, was like, we're affiliated with this organization, which basically means we're donating in some way, shape, or form. You know, we're learning from, but we want to make sure that we're looking and seeing what more we can do.

Yeah. And I, if I can, I had a really interesting exchange with a Māori education leader a year ago now, and it was really a good moment of learning for me cuz it was like I was trying to reflect with her about that it would be nice if there were more indigenous voices in the spaces that I was in, right? In international education. And, and her response to that was, Well, we are kind of getting on with our thing, right? We are convening in different spaces. You just don't know about them.

Right.

Why do we need to come into your spaces? And it was really interesting for me just to be like, whoa, yeah, okay, hold on a minute. Like I'm, I'm already kind of, there's some bias in my framing that I'm in the spaces where thing, where the global conversation about education is happening. And if you're not in those spaces, you're not involved in the conversation. Well, it's like, well, actually there are importantly other spaces where conversations are happening. Yeah, it was very interesting kind of moment of reflection for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I know what you mean. Yeah. So that bridge and how, yeah. And it's true. It's like, cause you know, for, I think when we started, we didn't, it was very quiet, you know, it was like, we didn't start getting, you know, noticed until the International Educator Equity Statement, you know, came out, which is what we were talking about first. You know, people like, wait, what's, what's going on?

Yeah. No, it's amazing. And I mean, I guess we've kind of spoken about the commitment to action, but that just comes through so strongly in your work. Maybe just one question on that is how are you maintaining that, the level of the collaborative connection that you're doing with other people? Like, do you have a kind of approaches that allow you as a leader in that space to kind of keep going?

Yeah, no, definitely. I think, you know, I think for us, the biggest thing has been the students. You know, I think the thing that I noticed right away, because, you know, international school system is like most. It's adult supremacy, as you know, Darnell Fine will call Dr. Darnell Fine will say it's time. It is. It's like, how often are, you know, which is why I know I stopped going to curriculum meetings that didn't have a student at the table. Again, it's another voice who's missing. Who's not, right? Who's not? We're talking about students, but are they here? Are we talking about who's being impacted? And so I think for us, a big piece of that commitment is that there's alum, there's current students that are experiencing different things, you know, from hitting curriculum to saying like, We've had an intern who was like, we need to get this book banned. It is offensive. The students, you know, this is the what's going on. And they did it. You know what I mean? So again, it's, it needs to be for us centered really around our commitment is to the students, it's to alumni. And obviously there's an adult component. Sure. You know, knowing that there's things that are within the system, ecosystem that needs to be changed. And, and I think the community is a big aspect. I say, I tell people all the time, when you look at what's on offer every month from ALOC, it doesn't come from the leadership team. It doesn't come from Marla, Gita, Reem and I, it comes from the community. Community. The community says, this is what we want to do, this is what we want, and this is the support that we would need to do this. We have groups, you know, individuals that reach out and say, hey, we don't see this, we're interested in collaborating. And so I think that community aspect is really what drives, you know, a lot of this work.

That's great. There's a lot of energy in that, isn't there? Like when people are kind of self-organizing in a way that where they see a need and taking action. That's great. Yeah, amazing. So, all right, let's, let's talk about— I love— there was a piece Swetanga Chakrabarti wrote about leadership for radical dreaming. So you mentioned the conference, so I think that was your— was that your first ALOC in-person conference in Hanoi recently?

Yep, that was the first in person. Yeah, we've been virtual since 2020 and we'll keep the virtual ones, so that'll be the first part of November.

Yeah, amazing. But the— but I just love that idea of leadership for radical dreaming. I'll link to in the show notes. But yeah, maybe you could just say a little bit about what is that idea of radical dreaming.

Yeah, and it really, for us, it is the what-ifs, you know. You know, for me, bottom line is I want everyone to win. Like, I remember going to Unison and I was in the early years section, um, I just read to some scholars and then walked out. And I remember I was having a conversation with a school leader there and I was like, this is the why right here. I'm like, all of these 3 and 4 and 5-year-olds, I want them to be able to go and be free. See how free they are? They're like riding bikes, they're playing. It's like that social aspect. I'm like, I I want this ecosystem like that. I don't want it to be like, oh, a hijab. Oh, your skin color. Oh, your past. Like, what? When does that actually occur? That whole being called out because of an identity marker that I can't change. So it's just like, so for us, it's the what if. What would our international school ecosystem be like if that was the case? Just think about the number of teachers or leaders who haven't progressed because of something that's an ism or something that's discriminatory that's happened. And so for us, it's like being in those spaces and places and dreaming collectively, um, and also individually, and then letting that be the driver for your work. Being an advocate for change, being willing to engage in those, you know, courageous conversations, being willing again to take those risks and saying, I don't know, I need help, I need some support, what if, or have we considered this? And from all over the world. And I think, you know, the, the big thing conference-wise that, you know, people said was And I still was like, even 2 months later, Tim, I was still on this conference high of, you know, like just the energy and the, like the people were there, you know, who are devoted, who wanna see, you know, difference, who wanna ensure that the life of schools changes. And again, a range of people, you know, and a range of, from directors of professional learning to international school leaders, to directors of DEI, to teach, I mean, a range of folks. So again, for us, that told us that, you know, there's definitely work being done. At times you feel like, oh, is it just us? Or, you know, is stuff progressing? And then you'll get that email or get that message or that, you know, let's talk about this, this is what we're doing. And we know it's because our thinking is system-wide. And so it's like, we know it's a system at work. And it's like, how do you look at governance? How do you look at recruitment? How do you look at leaders? All the aspects, which gets into the International School Task Force. When you look at the big pieces, you know, how do you really break them down and invite in? Because again, that's been our approach, to invite in organizations and individuals who are working in these spaces.

Yeah.

And get them into the dream, you know, and knowing that it is possible. I think that's our big thing. It is possible. Which goes back to why I say it's gonna take all of us, you know, it's gonna take all of us. So when I'm sitting some way place and I hear something that just, you know, say, wait, what? I have to be the one that says it, but it's not just me. We all need to be doing it.

Yeah, you know, exactly. Yeah, no, absolutely. No, I love it. And I had a recent conversation on the podcast with Homer Tavanga and just brilliant. And you know, exactly. And that, you know, she with Will and with Eric and they're asking big questions, obviously, but also that I had some connections with that idea of radical dreaming of just like irresistible futures she was talking about and right. What sometimes a bit of a lack of imagination about what could be, right? Because we've been ingrained, particularly as adults, ingrained so much in the kind of, you know, back to the white supremacy culture, right? Just kind of accepting the structural biases that are baked in.

Yeah.

And somehow that kind of limits our imagination about the kind of world we could live in if we change some pretty fundamental things. But yeah, it just, it struck me that like, as you said, you want everyone to win. And like, for me, I just feel like we need to play a slightly different game if everybody's going to win, right? Because sometimes the game that is framed now is this game of individual success and zero-sum, all against all, you know, and there's something that I don't know, we just need to, I just feel strongly that we need to play a different kind of game.

Yeah.

And everyone will win, right? In a different kind of way, right? Yeah.

And it's one of care. It's one of solidarity. It's one of community. It's one of, and again, I think about about, if we think about international schools and any schools, when do our scholars get a chance to dream?

Yeah.

When do teachers get a chance to dream? When do leaders get a chance to dream? You know, and this is why we love the arts, let's be real. Yeah. So, you know, which at times, you know, people forget about, you know, I get a canvas, I have this blank canvas, I have this sculpture, you know, where whatever it's like, what are the opportunities where I get an opportunity to really dream?

Yeah.

Yeah. I was at a math conference recently and this powerful quote, this young lady said, you know, how many of you know What dreams your mathematicians have? And I mean, you could hear a pin drop and it was like, wow, it's questions like that. It's like, how are we not only asking them, but how are we engaging in them?

Yeah. And, and creating space for them to have, have some oxygen to, to live, right, in our institutions. Because otherwise, particularly with a real focus on STEM and, you know, a lot more the arts is getting sometimes a bit pushed out. I think I worry about that as well. Yeah. Interesting. So, all right, let's talk about the task force, because I think that is, I mean, that's such an exciting piece of work and you've got, you know, really important partnerships. You've brought together, you know, these big organizations that potentially do have some influence over the system-wide change that we need, right? So yeah, please tell us a bit about where did that come from, the International School Anti-Discrimination Task Force, and where's it going?

Yeah, so it's a collective and a collaboration. It came about— Cam from ECIS and I, or Chad, again, really Eastside, you know, spearheading, getting things pushing and moving, but inviting, um, Ecolint as, you know, one of the first international schools, and then the IB on board with our big mission of, you know, thinking about, again, this dream is what we want to see, and then think about how to ensure that— how do we make schools, you know, truly inclusive, safe, equitable, welcoming spaces, you know. And I always would say, a lot of times I would start with asking those questions questions, you know, around like belonging, around safety, and around inclusive. And what do our students think? We would ask them those questions again, because again, it's not just about the adults. What do our students think as it relates to that? And so the task force really, you know, we think about child protection task force, and for us it's because the system work, it'll be an ever-living part for us. It's long-term work, you know. We have sort of like a draft map out, but we know that work is going to persist beyond that. And again, it really is focused on— that's when we've started Geneva, Switzerland, we started with that. It's like, what would your dream We know that there's some, some issues that go on with these different topics, but what's the dream, you know? And for us it was identifying what are some of those big topics that have tended to be talked about in the, the 4 or 5 plus plus years around leadership, around like curriculum, which they call humanizing pedagogy, around governance, around student agency accreditation and recruitment. And so we're organized into sort of 6 subcommittees that are working. And again, inviting in conversations, thinking about who was there in Geneva when we got started, but also we We opened it up wider and said like, if others wanna get involved, come on, you know, again, volunteer. But it's taken time to get to know, to unpack, but also to work collectively and collaborate with folks who are working in those different spaces.

Yeah.

To consider some things that they may not have considered, you know, and what do we need to do differently? And so it is this ongoing sort of large-scale work cuz again, we're looking across, you know, the international school world.

Yeah. Amazing. And I mean that kind of alliance and coalition model, it just seems to be so important because you've got big organizations coming out publicly saying this is a really important priority that we need to focus in on. Yeah, no, great. And so, I mean, the roadmap on the website, you know, you're building towards guidance for across the whole sector of international schools next year. But what's your— where would you like to see it go? Where would be— obviously it's not Kevin's project entirely, it's a coalition, but as someone really, as we've said, committed to action and really kind of inspiring other people to come into this space, where would you like to see it go?

Definitely on that, that dream side and the different voices, ensuring that folks that work in that space seeing that change is possible and seeing that community works together, that what we want to see and who we want to be, you know, is possible across all of those, you know. And there's going to be bumps, there's going to be, you know, oh, we didn't do that or we didn't consider that. But, you know, again, being willing to come back and have those conversations as a collective.

Yeah, no, brilliant. And I mean, are there specific things that if, you know, if I'm a school leader or a teacher in a school, what is there ways to get involved in the task force or is it just to kind of acknowledge and enact the guidance once it comes out? Like where, how can I play a role?

Definitely. Yeah. And that's, I mean, one way is like if I'm interested in a committee and getting involved in a volunteer capacity, that's one way. The site is ISADTF.org and like you're saying, if I'm a part of of one of those topics, you know, again, reaching out, you know, if I haven't been, because again, I think that's constantly the part, like I'm working with Nunana on accreditation. So our big thing with who are all the groups doing accreditation work, you know, because we want to make sure that we're inviting them in, you know, into the work, getting their feedback, inviting them into the space. And that was like sort of one of the first things that we, again, constantly consider too. It's like, is there anyone we're missing? Any voices not here?

Yeah.

Yeah. Brilliant. Amazing. Thank you, Kevin. I mean, There's so much to be done. And as I said, you know, I so value your inclusive approach to it. And I'm so happy to be able to have the conversation and just help to kind of spread the message more widely.

So thank you, man.

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