Learning as If Life Depended on It - A Conversation with Olli-Pekka Heinonen

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

I think learning is the greatest capacity that we have as humans. It's a decisive moment for humankind. It doesn't automatically lead to good, but there is a huge possibility for us now to really use this moment to create something better.

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the podcast. My name is Tim Logan, and the podcast is produced by Good Impact Labs. There are a lot of people searching right now, including me, including this podcast, searching for different ways in and through many of the global challenges that we're facing. And as people often conclude, education and learning are central to these questions. How do we learn together across generations, in communities, in ways that will enable systemic change and the capacities of our youngest humans to thrive long into their futures. It's my huge privilege this week to be able to share this exclusive interview with IB Director General Olli Pekka Heinonen about his new book, Learning as if Life Depended on It, which is being released on November 4th alongside many other thinkers and authors like Paul Kingsnorth, Vanessa Andriotti, and Iain McGilchrist. Olli Pekka's new book powerfully describes the legacies of the modern world that have led us to see the world and each other in very particular and not always helpful ways. He describes 10 illusions that we have been enculturated we are infiltrated into by modernity, such as the illusion of simplicity, control, and competition, and then outlines how we might learn our way to seeing past and beyond these illusions. As he says, as we view the world differently, the world we view also changes. For me, and for the podcast, and of course for Olipeka himself as the Director General of one of the largest education organizations in the world, the question that then follows is what is the role that we play—schools, universities, as educators, in communities—in enabling this new learning?. And it's a learning that is a much broader exploration of what it means to be human and live in relationality and in service of life. You can find more information about Oli Pecker and his forthcoming book linked in the show notes.

Nice to see you again, Oli Pecker. Thank you very much for coming back onto the podcast. It's been a little while since we did our first conversation. I think it was 2021. When you were still working at the national agency in Finland. So a lot's happened in 4 years.

Definitely.

But no, thank you for agreeing and happy to have this conversation.

My pleasure to be here, Tim Logan. Excellent.

Well, it's, so it's a big moment. Finally, the new book coming out. I say new book, perhaps maybe we could start there and just could share the story of where it's come from, just so that people understand this is, it is a new book of a sort, but it also is something you worked on earlier on in your career based on a lot of your own experiences. So perhaps you could just, what was happening for you? What were the things that were coming up for you when you decided to write the book originally in its original finish?

Well, I think the main reason why I started to write the book was that when you come to my age, you realize that you won't be here forever. And by that, comes the idea that, that kind of what comes after you. And of course, you start to think about your own children. I got my first grandchildren. But you also start thinking about the unborn generations, that how could they enjoy the miracle of life? And I saw in the world through my experience, developments that could danger that. And I was thinking about what can I do about it? And I think the most natural way for me to do is to share my thoughts, share the ways that I see the world, And hopefully through that, get some people thinking about what is the world we are living right now, what, what are the possibilities and what are the threats that there are and take action. Yeah. So that was the main motivation. Yeah.

And I mean, maybe it's worth saying also clearly it would've built significantly on or from your experience in Finland. And globally in the work that you were doing. So what were you seeing at that time around 2020 that was particularly poignant for you to, you know, to start writing then?

I think the most important observation was that on certain aspects, we as humankind, we were failing, but we were not learning from the failings. So in a way, we, we have a challenge of not understanding as a humankind what is the impact of our actions as individuals. But I think as individuals, we don't want to create the world that is evolving, but we struggle to see what is the sum of all our actions to the planet and to each other as human beings. Yeah. And really the question of us creating conditions for failure is something that I'm very worried about. If you look at the history and you look at, for example, the start of violence and wars, you can see that there are kind of tensions that have been created as conditions that then end up by violence. And that's what I'm seeing, that we are creating that kind of conditions right now. And I definitely would not want us to make changes only through pain, right? That we could find changes by kind of realizing what the challenges are and what are the conditions right now that we are creating and make still change for the better. Yeah.

So learning as if life depended on it, perhaps one could say.

Well, that's it. That's really it. I think learning is the greatest capacity that we have as humans, and we have been good with it through the development of humankind, and we have created enormously valuable inventions, culture, really improved our quality of life. But at the same time, we have also created some new problems, right? And that's something that we have to realize.

Yeah. So I mean, it is, it is a very hopeful book in many ways. So part, in part 3 and part 4, which I'd love to come onto talking about our potential and our learning capacity, and maybe there's a lot of hope in that. But perhaps if we could just dwell just for a moment on the first 2 parts of the book, because in the first part you talk about this toxic cocktail in a way of some of the conditions which you've already started to, to kind of draw out, but Maybe you could say a little bit more about trust and this idea of some— it felt very strongly you're talking about the decline of trust actually between, in the social contract or between individuals in society all over the world and between countries. So yeah, maybe describe this toxic cocktail that you kind of lay out in that first part. Yes.

I think that is something that kind of emerges from my experiences in the society in Finland, because the Finnish society is built on trust. It's, it's really the success of growing from one of the poorest countries in Europe to be seen as one of the top welfare societies in the world. It was based on trust. People trusting each other enables them to take risks for innovation, to learn more, to create prosperity. And also that creates a kind of a network, kind of a safety net in the society on which you can build a lot of things. And the deterioration of trust in the world I am seeing is serious in the sense that it kind of abolishes our ability to disagree because we don't have any more a shared basis on what is real or what is true. And if we don't have that, there is no way for us to find compromises on anything. Or to create new solutions in a peaceful way. Because if you don't trust anything, you're not capable of making sense of anything and you're not capable of kind of creating a life of your own and definitely not doing it on a community or on a societal level. And that is what I'm seeing happening. I think we're— we've gone through— like, when I was young, my grandfather in a farm, in the barn of that farm, told me stories about the Second World War. And of course, I was very interested as a young person of those stories. But there was also in those stories, there was a lot of that hope that was there after the war of really coming together with others, that kind of a community sense of all those horrible events to build something new on top of the ruins, both the physical and the mental ones. And that was the moment when really a lot of institutions in the world and also in our societies were created. And there was a feeling of optimism. And there was also the kind of a strong sense of the world progressing. And we've gone through the phases of that optimism, maybe changed a bit kind of to an euphoric sense really kind of heating up. And there was definitely the idea of community changed to individualism, which then went kind of over to egoism. Right. And now we've seen the rise and fall of institutions. The trust in institutions has been ruined. And all the central institutions are under attack. If we think about media, we think universities, science, we think education. They are kind of all under attack. And I do see that we are coming to an end of that phase. That my grandfather was talking to me. It doesn't hold anymore. That hope and trust that was there at that time, it doesn't hold anymore. And that's a serious moment for us humans because you can see it in the world order that you and nations don't know anymore who's a friend and who's a foe. And I think it's a bit same on individual level also, that people have to find their own identity for new. And that's really demanding. And at the same time, of course, it creates a situation where, where this is a moment for searching. People are searching for meaning. We are seeing it in the growth of certain religious movements, kind of new religions. Popping up and also a lot of grassroots activities happening where people are trying to make sense and come together and create something new. And that, that's really the— it's a decisive moment for humankind. It doesn't automatically lead to good, but there is a huge possibility for us now to really use this moment and searching to create something better. Yeah, absolutely.

And it, it really makes me think, I mean, in a way, this podcast, the emergence of this podcast over the last 5 years is a function of the searching, right? My own searching, but a kind of a conversation across the education internationally of people searching for, well, if not that, then what? And I think as you were saying that it's hard to step into the vulnerable liminal space of real learning, especially with other people. Without a sense of some shared ground on which we're standing, right? And that ground is cracking and we're not sure and we're all, you know, so it's really, I very much resonates with me that idea, you know, that we are really searching for that in all sorts of ways. And there's a lot of hope in that, but there's also, you know, there's a lot of fracture and uncertainty in that.

Yeah, definitely. But I think kind of looking at the positive side that I think we are living now the moments that the kind of observations and the solutions that we are now taking, those are the stories that the next grandfathers will be telling their grandchildren. That's the kind of richness of this time that we are living something, a moment which is very thick in kind of possibilities. And we should grab that.

Yeah. Makes me think of Vanessa Andriotti and her grandmothers. We've just had her on the podcast and she talks about 126 grandmothers and there's something very, I agree, very rich of the intergenerational kind of sharing that because part of the thing that people are searching for is not to design new institutions. It's a different way of responding in a way that maybe builds some of that trust back up. It's not, yeah, not as straightforward.

Project, I think. And that's the challenge. Yeah. Yeah. Because we as humans, we search to be in control. And one way of having control is continuing on the path that there is. And that path dependency hinders us to see new opportunities. I think we are still thinking that the something, the new that we sense that is around the corner, we think that it will be kind of some, a couple statesmen who will make a decision and then that will create the new. I don't think that is what is around the corner. We are looking kind of around the wrong corner. I think the change will come from a different place and I do see that it comes more from the small initiatives that there are around the world where people come together from different perspectives, from different kind of ideas. But there is something common also there bubbling up and that kind of a grassroots movement or mushroom. Mushrooms. Exactly. They, I think that's where the new is emerging all the time. Yeah.

And I mean, maybe that takes us in a way nicely to your illusions, cuz that's kind of the heart of the book. And I think while illusions are about, you know, your perception and, you know, there was something about the time in which your grandfather was telling you those stories that one could say life was somewhat simpler then, that, you know, the stories have been radically complicated by an increasing awareness of all the different movements happening globally, I think. And clearly, you know, important movements happening in Europe, but as we've learned about the different emergencies across the Global South and, you know, those big meta-narratives, those big stories have been, I mean, many people would say appropriately complicated in order to see more nuance of different forces at play. And, you know, it's not just about a European story, it's a global story. And it makes me want, I don't know, something about the illusions that you lay out in the book. Perhaps we can begin to see those illusions or become aware of those illusions because of the things that we're seeing, different ways of being or different ways of knowing that enables us to see our own perception a little bit more clearly perhaps. So maybe, yeah, perhaps you could just lay out this idea of the illusions a little bit because that, as I say, that really is the core of the book. I think it's a really powerful set of descriptions of some of our challenges right now and our ability to see, become more aware of those things. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, please, if you could just lay out maybe a couple of examples of those illusions.

Yeah, that'd be great. Well, first of all, I think I use the term illusion for the reason that I'm not saying that there is something that is kind of sensed or seen that is wrong. And then there is something that is right. I'm saying that we are seeing something valuable, but we are leaving out of the picture also something very valuable that we should take into use in this situation. And maybe kind of one way of looking at the couple examples is to look at— because I see that the societal phases that we have gone through, they always leave a mark on our thinking, our worldview, our language. When I was listening to those stories from my grandfather, that happened in an agriculture society. That was a small agricultural village and it was all about around agriculture. But after that, there has been the phase of industrial society, which once we moved to close to a city which was all industrial activities. And then if I look at what came after that, the kind of information and knowledge society phase where I was already then as a Minister for Education and Science and then Minister for Transport and Communication, I think first the, the industrial society phase that left us with the idea that we look at the world as a machine. And of course, factories were full of machines. That's very understandable. And, and we've done a lot of technological developments of creating new machines, but we also took that image to incorporate the way that we see us as humans, a very kind of reductionist, atomistic, mechanistic way of seeing also living systems, that we separate everything and we look and think ourselves that we are, as humans, we are kind of so separate from everything else. And also we look at communities and societies as they were machines, that those that are making the decisions, they kind of manage the machines. They are outside the machine and then they kind of fix it. And then the machine again functions better. And that's so wrong. That creates a lot of bad politics, not understanding that the decision makers are part of that community and everything they do and act changes the way that that community or society functions. And also that there is something new born every moment with kind of living systems, societies. They never stay the same. So you have to constantly kind of try to understand what are the tensions in the society, what is the changes that are happening. And you have to, as decision makers, constantly also change your own approach is how you navigate in that kind of a system. And maybe the first example is exactly that, our way of how we see the world. It's a narrow view that we have gotten used to looking at it, and we should widen our perspective. Then came the Knowledge Society or Information Society, where we really got the idea that we as humans, we are at the peak there is in cognitive capabilities. And of course, that was the moment where the, the kind of investments in research, investments in, in education, in higher education really flourished and increased. And a lot of good was created by that. But again, we concentrated on one element of knowing, that type of scientific knowing. And we somehow kind of decreated the other ways of knowing, the kind of skills, the procedural knowing, how to do things. It became less valuable than the kind of scientific knowing. And also the other ways of knowing, the perspectival knowing, how to be in a position, how to be somebody, and then how to understand also how to be somebody else was also left outside. And also the kind of participatory knowing, evolving with the changing world. And as I said, all that science was so, so important and will be in the future, but we should widen our way of understanding the other ways of knowing and also get rid of that body-mind split, thinking that our brains, that's the valuable piece. 'Cause we know everything through our bodily movements. And, and we should understand that then it's not only kind of on individual, it's in the interactions between our environment and between each other as humans. And one could say that luckily we have now the artificial intelligence, because that brings in front of us the mirror and that kind of ontological shock that we aren't the peak in cognitive skills, but we're capable of creating machines that do it more reliably and faster than we do. And then we have to think that, okay, now what, what is it really that we humans are capable of and what should we do to be living a flourishing life?

Yeah, it's fascinating. It, it, as you say, this kind of widening of the gaze somehow, and that's part of the searching that I think you were talking to earlier. I mean, it's, it's one thing to recognize the illusions, or, you know, the misinterpretations of our perception. It's a different thing to then say, okay, so how do we learn differently? How do we expand beyond that? And I think that really is what a lot of what the book is about. And then you go into that in those second parts. But it just made me also think about your grandfather in the sense of some of the ways that perhaps he was in an agricultural society in Finland, was perceiving some intuitions about the weather or about, you know, connection with the landscape. Again, as you described, these kind of impact of these dominant metaphors of then the machine and then the knowledge and the information and the reductionism or the scientific propositional knowledge, it all leaves an impact on us as a society, doesn't it? And then bring it into an educational place, the way that we then educate our young people into the dominant stories of the moment in a way. And so while it's not a going back to the time of your grandfather and the intuitions and some of that, the other ways of knowing, There is also a, as Indy might say, rhyming with that. It's like there is, there's something about, as you say, widening that out as we think about a broader conception of what learning is, I think, which is, feels important.

Yeah, definitely there is. And I guess that the challenge with just concentrating on the propositional scientific knowing has created a situation where it's part of the reason why we've lost connection to ourselves. Because it's really that question that, are we capable today to be comfortably with ourselves, or are we kind of constantly searching out possibilities to avoid to do that? And it's the same thing that how we are clearly losing our ability to be with others too. And that's especially scary when looking at the young people today who too often are in a situation that they don't really know what does it mean to be a friend to somebody., or to connect or be physically in the same space with others and collaborate and disagree and, and, and live the, the, the hard thing of, of living together with somebody. I, I think in those questions there's a lot that we can learn from the earlier generations. And also I think there's a lot that we can learn from the indigenous cultures. I don't want to romanticize those cultures, but there are things that they have been capable of maintaining through centuries and centuries of how to connect with yourself, others, and the nature and the land that this time of the Western worldview is really thirsty for.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, in a way, that's one of, that's been one of the challenges of, for example, the postmodern critique is it's all very well to kind of criticize the, or become aware of the illusions that you lay out in the book, but then what? And that part, it's not, as you've clearly said, there is real value in the reductionist, the scientific, the consideration of a machine, an understanding of how parts might work together, and how do we broaden that into understanding complexity, complex ecologies, life as it evolves, systems, et cetera. And that's, I think, is one of the— we just had Andrea Hyatt on the podcast, and that's a really interesting holding into not turn that into a binary of, well, we're moving, we're transcending that, we're leaving that all behind, and now we're moving into a different phase. It's something that I think part of our searching and challenge right now is to say, there is real value in a lot of that while also real violence that has been done in, in the names of those things. How do we hold all of that and continue together in a way that might build some kind of trust and shared ground to stand on, to kind of learn together? In a way, maybe that's a, a nice kind of invitation towards where you go in the book, which is about really recognizing together what our collective potential is in part 3, and then really going deeper into this concept of learning, but not in the school formal education sense of, you know, many of the things we've discussed, but this much broader conception of social learning, collective learning, which I think is a, it's a really profoundly important set of dispositions or competencies or whatever. So yeah, perhaps you could just lay that out a little bit more about where, what are the kinds of arrangements or, you know, organizations or emerging institutions that might hold some spaces for the kind of learning that you are talking about in the book?

I think it really comes to the question that how we come together as kind of groups of people, communities, and societies. What is the way of us to create the coherence in that kind of communities. We have moved to a situation where that coherence is created by means of control. And that's, that's how organizations are led. They are led by control and kind of setting targets to the future and then controlling that everybody is acting to reach those objectives. And in a world that is constantly evolving, a networked world where there are so many connections that it is very difficult to anticipate what happens next. It's not a predictable world. And for that reason, that kind of a way of organizing communities doesn't function well. It makes us blind to the things that are happening outside those objectives that we are setting for the future. And therefore we have to find kind of new ways to create the coherence. And I strongly believe that a better way of doing it is to do it through learning. Really kind of concentrate on the question as, as a main objective. What has that community or that organization learned, for example, during the last year? Because that learning determines what is that organization's capability to succeed with the next phase of evolving reality. So it kind of sounds simple, but in a way it's pretty revolutionary way of looking differently. What is the meaning of an organization or a, or a community? And actually the, the, the, often when people hear the word organization, they start thinking about boxes that are on top of each other and who has the power over who. That's not the main purpose for organization. The main purpose for the organization, if it's a kind of a working organization, is to organize things in a way that allows the people in the organization to do a good job in learning new things and doing their job. That's the main purpose. And in a similar way, it's the same thing with communities. That idea that there is a decision maker who is solving everything in today's world won't function. Our problems are adaptive problems in the sense that they are connected to ourselves as human beings. Climate change, inequalities, the violence that we are seeing in the world. There isn't a one person who can say that I'll solve them. Because they are connected to the way that how we as humans, all of us, how we act, how we consume, how we treat each other. And that makes them kind of learning or even kind of educational challenges. Right.

Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting because it makes me think of sometimes we can see, we can instrumentalize learning as a better way to get to a better outcome. Quicker way to get to a better outcome. But actually what I hear you saying is that it's learning in and of itself for its own value, because that is in a way the new— coin a phrase— the new normal. I mean, we can't stop learning. The challenges will not stop moving and we need to continue learning with them. But until we put the value on the learning itself, rather than just as an instrumentalized way to get to a better end goal, end product, then I think we're still missing, we're still stuck in maybe some of the illusions of control. It's just efficiency. We're using learning as an efficient tool. But also, this isn't a theoretical challenge for you. This is very real. I mean, you are running a huge community, huge organization of 6,000 schools across 160 countries. This is a very real daily experience for you. So perhaps you could speak to that briefly, just in how does it show up, what kinds of ways does this, you know, meet the ground in the way, in a practical way? Yeah, that's exactly so.

And at the International Baccalaureate, what we are and have noticed and are working on is that what becomes central is the way that schools, in connection to the environment where they are and the community where they are placed in, how they function is kind of the curriculum. Because if the schools as communities of learning don't show that example in their own activities and functions, it's no use to tell in a classroom that you should be constantly learning. Because the, the stronger curriculum is the one that the students see? What's the reality of the school? So in that sense, the culture of the school, the leadership of the school, the way of inclusion of all the members in the school community and the parents and the community around, that's really what is the success of a good school. And Actually, that's not something new. We've known it for a long time that, and there's a lot of research, for example, done in Finland that what is a good school about, and the outcome is it's the school culture. And that's really the question that how it functions and how the different subjects come together to a real-life experience of the students as learners. Yeah. So there's a lot in that. And of course, I think that we are also seeing that students are really hungry for having that direct connection in their learning with the world. And schools should not be places that is a hinder for that to happen, that— but it would allow that to happen in a, in a place where there are adult professionals who are capable of supporting the students to meet the world. Yeah. And, and that's the challenge that we are working on to, to find those ways of creating those cultures as communities of practice in schools. And also, of course, reform the way that the traditional curriculums are, and definitely assessment systems too.

Yeah. Interesting. That also though leads me to ask, because as the community is a complex ecology with 6,000 schools and the schools are all independent. There's also a role for the IB, overarching, as I spoke to Roland Coopers on the podcast a while ago about complexity. And, you know, I remember him talking about the kind of top-down role being mirrors and catalysts, you know, providing mirrors of what's important and catalysts for enabling that. And so there's something there about, you know, what's the organization doing to role model some of these things that we think they are genuinely valuable. It's not, it's not a command and control model to say this is on the schools and this is the responsibility of the schools. There's something there about the, the dance or the learning as the overall complex system of that IB broader global community.

Yeah, I think it's a kind of a role of a humble orchestrator actor who is, is capable of bringing schools and educators together to learn from each another and, and kind of make sense of the reality and enable the collaboration and see what's the role of the different actors that are needed to educate a child. Because I've seen in many national systems the challenge that there's a disconnect in the education system, that there is good intention on the national level to create the education. But it doesn't connect with the reality of teachers and schools. So it's really kind of pushing down a strategy. And in the school level, what you find is that there are the teachers and there are the, the educators who are kind of don't understand that. Why would we do this, this kind of national strategy that where is this coming from? And then they kind of learn that let's stay low for a couple of years, then there will be a new strategy again. So they'll forget this one. But, but that's, that's a, we are kind of losing a huge amount of valuable societal resources because of that. Yeah. Just because the reason that there isn't that understanding that the quality of the interaction between those different actors is the key. Right. The interaction is missing entirely. And I think that's also where the Central could have a role to be a kind of a system convener to bring the different actors together and understand why all of them are needed in their own roles. Yeah, no, absolutely.

And I mean, it also, for me, one of the huge values of that truly global community is the diversity of contexts and perspectives that are being brought into that. And obviously that's a really core philosophical belief of the, and mission of the IB as well comes through strongly in the book. And if I may, I just, there's one passage or one sentence I just wanted to read because I really, I find it really powerful about just maybe as we wrap up, just thinking about what is the invitation to people. And you say, when our minds are under strain, the wisest thing to do is to slow down and listen to ourselves, to perceive what is significant and what isn't, what is hurtful or joyful, what replenishes or drains our energy. So in all of this searching that we've been doing, that we are, you know, this podcast is doing that I think is critically important now, but also weaving in this idea of, as we've talked about, how do we also learn from the diversity of perspectives that you really powerfully talk about in the book? It's like slowing down, listening to ourselves, but also creating spaces where we can listen to each other. In that spirit of learning. It just, that feels a really important invitation right now at this time. And so, yeah, perhaps we could just, as we wrap up, just talk about what would you hope the book might do as an invitation to people, or that, you know, where is the work? You know, what, what is the invitation to the ongoing work of the book and then of the broader, this broader idea of learning and collective potential? Hmm. Yeah.

I've, I've, started to really appreciate the saying that slow is smooth and smooth is fast. I think it comes— they used in US Army circles, but it applies to everything that I see. And especially in this world where we are constantly increasing the pace in everything we do and then multitasking and all that. Looking at the challenges that are in, in, in front of us, we cannot afford to be in a hurry. We have to slow down and as you said, create spaces to see where we are. You have to start where you are. Mm-hmm. And if you don't stop, you don't see where you are and Also the question of making those kind of instant answers that come on your mind first. We should learn to hold on a bit and also understand that those that think entirely different than you do, what is it? Why are they thinking like that? We are arguing so much about who is right. But at the end, if we would understand that what is the situatedness of that other person, where is he or she coming from, what is the background, what is the uniqueness of that person, we could decrease so many fights and arguments in the world and shift to more kind of understanding in dialogue. And that's really what is needed in the world. And as we are seeing the impacts of climate change, which will mean that there will be a kind of a tense of certain resources, whether we are talking about livable environments or food or water. And of course that creates tensions and we have to be capable of managing those tensions. So it, it's really, it's a high time for us to learn to do that. 'Cause that's the only way that we can safeguard that the future generations have more options in front of them than we have today. The way we act today ends up exactly the opposite. What we are doing is we are diminishing the options of the future generations. Yeah. And I don't want to live that way. And I know that so many people as individuals feel the same way. But still, as humankind, we move to another direction. And that's the learning that we should have in our own minds, to look at the world in a different way. That is the decisive kind of decision and possibility that we all have.

Absolutely. Yeah. No, thank you, Ollipeko. And it, I mean, it feels, I feel your urgency with it. I feel in, you know, it's the title of the book. I mean, there is a lot depending on our ability to think anew, to, to really step up and respond to this. So no, I just, I so appreciate the work you've done in the book and the, you know, the fact that we can get it out into the world. And, and I really do hope it sparks a lot of dialogues and, you know, moments of reflection, because I think it's, it's a powerful invitation right now. So, you know, thank you very much, and thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much, Tim. We hope you've enjoyed this episode. Please feel free to continue the dialogues with our guests, with us at Good Impact Labs, on our blog, or on social media, or within your own networks.