Reimagining Education in India - A Conversation with Dr Priti Ojha, Vardan Kabra, Anoushka Jolly and Suraj Shah

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

But education system today in India is changing to let them know that the world outside the books is the real education. And to reach that, teacher has to be equipped, parent has to be strong, and then the child will get that very strong support. Only then it's going to happen.

Hi, welcome back to the podcast. My name is Tim Logan and I'm your host, and the podcast is brought to you in partnership with Notosh. The conversation this week arises out of an amazing trip to India that I took in May, during which I met so many amazing educators who are working to support important shifts in the education system across India. In this episode, I'm speaking with 4 people who are doing just that, working in different ways to support those shifts. I speak with Dr. Priti Yorchha, who is an experienced school head and now school consultant and global peace ambassador. Then you'll hear me speak to Vardhan Cabra, who is the co-founder and head of school at Fountainhead School in Surat, Gujarat, and the author of the recent book Reimagining Indian Education. You then hear from Anoushka Jolly, who is the founder of the Kavach app and InnerArk BlockTech, an amazing young person working on the metaverse in order to respond to challenges around adolescent mental health. And lastly, you'll hear my conversation with Suraj Shah, who is an educator teaching psychology and theory of knowledge, as well as a psychotherapist, psychologist, and mindfulness trainer.

Hello, I am Dr. Preeti Ojha. I'm working as an educationist in India. I have made sure that I'm able to touch each and every stage of education system as a teacher, as an administrator, as somebody who can be a part with the teachers to train and coach and learn from them. And every teacher has a multitasking profile now, so we are trying to make sure that we are equipped with the intelligence as well as learning to do the same with the children and the parents.

Great. Yeah, thank you. This works. Firstly, it's really lovely to chat to you. So I'd love to start on that last point about parents if we can first, because I know you've done a lot of work through your school leadership roles and, you know, all different aspects working with parents, educating parents, supporting parents in the choices they make around the education system. I'd love to get your perspective on what do you feel are the particular needs that parents have in relation to the choices they're making for their children, or the choices that are available in terms of schools, the challenges and the fears they might have?

Uh, looking at the education system in India and the parents, I see that there is a lot of handholding of parents in this entire system for their child. And when we do any kind of a change in the system, we usually go and just hook up with all the children and make those changes. And now has the time come, especially when this new Education Policy 2020, that let us first orient the parents who have to be a part of this huge change. So I think that parents also taking a keen interest since the lockdown when the schools became online, and classes went into their bedrooms, and the parents know who the teacher is. And we all are exposed to a lot of extent and their learning is also enhanced. So when they get to know about the new education policy, they also want to know what was the previous one, what's happening now, and what do they expect from the parent. And now schools have to now make a change in their orientation, that it cannot be an orientation in the first day of the school and the last day of the school. It has to be throughout the year to let them know step by step what is unfolding for them and what exactly are the expectations from the parents. The institutions also should know what do they expect from the parents, and definitely when both of them come together and understand the need and align, the child benefits from it rather than going through a struggle.

Absolutely. Ketty, can I ask you, what is it with the changes that have come in the 2020 Education Policy? What is it that parents are feeling around— maybe it's fears or anxiety or uncertainty around the way that education is changing?

There's a huge transition in the National Education Policy, and this policy says that these are few important things that schools have to take care of. So if I want to bring them under 3 pillars, the first transition is towards multidisciplinary and holistic development of the child, and it has multiple folds inside it. Then we have the critical thinking and analytical thinking among the students while they are learning. And the third is curricular and the pedagogy. Now when we go to all three of them, they have to be aligned with the new National Curriculum Framework 2023, which tells you the guideline and minimum level of learning for a child. So for example, I want to talk to children about countries. So I can't tell a grade 1 child or a 6-year-old child that you start understanding about Model United Nations. I have to make sure they know about the countries, but the activity and the pedagogy and the curricula will change for them for the grade 1, and it will definitely be exceeding till the age group of 18. Now this thing was not as much as burnt into the syllabus earlier. Now it has come up to an extent that it is a part of the curricula. You You can't have an excuse that I have a smaller school, or it's in a rural area, or it's in an urban area. It's a government school, it's a private school, it's a public school. No, we all have to make sure that this transition in these three phases have to be incorporated in our curriculum and pedagogy.

Yeah, that's fascinating. And do you see that the parents are ready for those changes? Are they keen? Are they the ones pushing for the changes in some instances? Or How are the parents feeling about this?

Parents are understanding this because a lot of it is going in the form of circulars to the parents coming from the institutions. Parents are reading it, but parents really need to know the bigger picture rather than going into micro level.

Of course, yeah.

They need to know that the education system has now started changing, not in the sense of changing the whole information to them, but how the information is now going to come into the class. Is going to be a bigger change. So the children are supposed to now understand, for example, I'll give you some of the examples. What is rootedness with India? What is ethical mooring? What do you understand by creativity and imagination in a subject like Hindi poem? How exactly will you be able to be socially, emotionally, physically developing, but also Now schools have to take care of intellectual and ethical development also. So earlier it was a subjective notion. A school doing very good, teachers are excellent, curriculum is great, leader is knowing a lot, they will do things which are a little bit out of the box. But now these 5 important social developments is going to be a part of their curriculum. Now we are also expecting that humanities as one of the streams in grade 11 will have a combination of one of the subjects of science. So we in India have in grade 11th and 12th after 10th subject selection where you have humanities, commerce, and science. But now they are asking there's not going to be a very hard bifurcation between both of them. Humanities students can also opt some of the subjects of science. Academics cannot be only academics, you can have vocational as a combination. Now you not only have curricular, but you have extracurricular activities also combined. So they are not going to work in abstracts. They have to be integrated and work together where the need of the teacher and her role and her existence in the class has to be very strongly integrated with the teachers outside the classroom. Because if a teacher is teaching maths and she wants to integrate it with computer science Hindi, English, social science, geography, she has to sit with those teachers planning it to make sure that children are not confused. Parents are not irritated that how much work are you giving to a child, you know, it has to be brought together.

Absolutely.

That's how the curriculum and the pedagogy is going to be changing.

Yeah, interesting. And yeah, I mean, it's very interesting what you're saying about the need for collaborative design and planning between the teachers, because that, that's quite a shift when you're moving away from more of a top-down content-led curriculum and delivery by individual teachers to, as you say, this multidisciplinary, more collaborative, more holistic process, which is going to absolutely require teachers to be working together. And that, that also requires leadership to create those opportunities, right? You know, you can't just expect the teachers to go away and do that by themselves without the leadership creating the right conditions for that to happen.

Absolutely. Because here the leadership will have a very different dynamics to play. You are, for example, Tim, a maths teacher. I am an English teacher. We need to unlearn ourselves as an adult who have been conditioned for so many years to only teach our own subjects. But now to coordinate and let Tim know that when you teach maths, there are 3 words which are very important for my children. To learn through maths, and you are going to tell me that there are 3 important steps of descending and ascending order which you need to teach children by backward alphabet speech, or maybe forward, or do something where we both coordinate to make sure that the cognitive skills, that is thinking, is also enhancing. Because maths and English together, if sat by both the teachers and understood with the form of a curriculum needs a lot of thinking among two teachers and their abilities and capabilities, you know, because I may not know few of the things which I now not need to know through Tim because he's maths teacher and he's telling me to do that and incorporate it in my class. So I may also have multiple excuses that am I here to teach English or am I here to teach maths? So the first breakdown is going to be, hello, We are going to be teaching multiple subjects because we expect children to learn multiple subjects.

Yeah, and as you say, there's a conditioning that's happened to expect, you know, you have a very narrow role in a specialized, discipline-focused, traditional approach. And yeah, unlearning that is not an easy thing. I wonder also, what are your reflections about, as you were saying, the kind of bringing the humanities more into the 11th and 12th grade and more multidisciplinary work? From speaking with others, I've been hearing and speaking with the young people where I was working in India, there was a sense that the science, maths, and the engineering, the technical subjects are very much more dominant in terms of desired career paths and parents' expectations. And how do you feel that kind of rebalancing will work in terms of, there may be some challenges around parent expectations and students' preferences perhaps?

Till my generation, I had to build a house. I had to buy a car. I wanted to have a quality life which wasn't there until I started earning on my own. And I was not— most of us were not getting it as a legacy. But now I see, as per the economical development in the country, the children are looking forward for a different kind of a profile to go ahead and having the ease to choose because the parents' mindset is also changing. And they are also looking forward for children to opt for those occupations in which the child is happier, has less stress, and doesn't have to build something from scratch. They have a baseline given to the child that these are the things we have. So financially, you need to uplift the quality of your life rather than engaging into quantity or gathering assets and, you know, the basic needs. So I think there's a huge change that has come in our country, and I can see that the parents are now looking forward for— fine, yes, humanities has a lot of scope, and that makes my child happier, and it will make a difference in my child's looking at life, you know, and they may get an ease to opt for a different kind of an occupation. But yes, there is more percentage of those parents yet who are trying to live their dreams through their children, which I call helicopter parenting, where they want to make sure that what they couldn't become or they should make their child become should be taken by the child. And children definitely go through a lot of stress. Recently I had a student who came to me and he said, I'm so sorry, I cannot do science, maths, and physics. My parents are absolutely a no-no. They're saying I have to continue, but I know I will not be able to clear the papers and the marks for these subjects. I said, don't worry, I'll talk to your parents and things will be fine. I called the parents and parents said, it's very disappointing. How could he come to you and tell you this? Because we both had managed and thought of it and decided that this is what he's going to learn. Give me a day's time and I'm going to come back. So I said, okay, fine. And till then, the status is that we wanted to change the stream of the child. But the next day, the child was absolutely quiet and he said, no, I'll continue with science. I said, but you told me yesterday that it's going to be very difficult. He said, no, I had a little bit of problem and some confusion was there, few subjects, and my parents' expectations have now also aligned to what my expectations are with the subjects that they We both have opted together, so I think it will be easy for me now. I'll be able to go ahead. But for me to let you know, this example is that children are not made a decision maker from a very young age to take a stand or to own up to what they want. From a very young age, from schooling, especially the country where we belong to, it becomes very difficult for them to let their parents know, sorry, we don't want to do this, because they are not in a habit to say a no. This is what NEP is bringing, that from a very young age, start making children decide what they want to do and think. This part that you're talking about with the generation which is already there in 6th to 12th, parenting needs a lot of orientation. They need to know a lot of options of subjects and how to make sure children learn to learn them. So this is something that has to be taken care of.

Fascinating. One of the young people we— I was talking to while, while we were in New Delhi was saying a very similar thing, similar kind of story, but there was a sense, not that he was being forced by the family expectations, but that there was just the way he was speaking, it sounded as though there was a very strong familial responsibility that he felt He felt a real sense, you know, in his heart. He wasn't just saying, I have to do this and I'm being forced. He was saying, this is something I, I know is just the right thing for me to do. I don't necessarily want to choose this path, engineering, or— but I know it's the right thing for me and for me to support the family. And that's a really interesting— it's a much less individualistic perspective, right?

Yes, because I feel that the parents have a very strong role of telling their child from the very beginning of their schooling, that what school defines to them, what subjects are important for a parent. And knowingly or unknowingly, child wants to fit into the family. And, you know, despite of knowing what's right and wrong, they want to be always with that father and mother, and they always try to say what exactly the parents are saying. So they are— what model is happening in the home is modeled in the classroom also. They're not able to take the decisions. Mostly the parents are called for choosing the subjects. Children are not given the rights, and the parents have to be a part of choosing what exactly the child needs to opt in grade 11th and 12th. I feel, why don't we have that from the very beginning? Why don't we allow the children to make choices which are not decided forever, but they are decided for few intervals so that children know how they feel after taking a decision on smaller, you know, perspective and aspects in the school itself? Go through that journey and then let us know, or the school or the parents, how did they feel. You know, I think one more thing that I wanted to add here, we all can take a lot of success but we don't know how to manage the failure. And this also happens because they have never been asked to choose and own up what they have decided for and learn to own up their failure or success. And that's why most of the parents are clinging to their child when they're failing, because they know the choice was ours, and the child is feeling sad, so I need to support. You know, that's the ironical aspect which I keep thinking. Let the child choose, let the child fall, let you be a parent to hold yourself and let the child cry. When the child will understand that what I choose is my choice, and if I fail, I will know what are the things I didn't do right, and I'll be ready. To accept that feedback, which will not close the thought of redoing the whole thing again. Usually children drop out because of higher emotional tangent, self-respect, and taboo of the society. Because they're doing everything for the society and where parents are a part of the society. So they're doing only for the people around them. They are not yet doing things for themselves, but education system today in India is changing to let them know that the world outside the books is a real education. And to reach that, teacher has to be equipped, parent has to be strong, and then the child will get that very strong support of how to handle the community, people, mindset, behavior. Culture, value, whatever, local to global, everything. Only then it's going to happen.

That's amazing. Yeah, I know, I love that. Thank you. It's really interesting. It was making me think, as you were saying, the kind of that feeling and that need to protect as a parent so that, you know, they're well-intentioned around just— they want to protect and create certainty for the extended family and for the child. But actually, in doing so, as you say, the stakes of failure are really high. So failure means potentially a lot of negative emotions around the fact that they've let other people down. But as you say, if we kind of, if we can find a way to reduce the stakes of trying and failing, then failing's just a part of the learning process, which, you know, is a cliché to say, but it is very true. And you're not learning if you're not failing to some degree and getting the feedback, as you said, from that approach. Yeah, no, fascinating. I'd love to pick up on something you said about the rootedness. Earlier on, because I think in a previous conversation we had, I think it sounded like a really important aspect, that sense of the role of education in the formation of identity of the, these young people and, and broadly culture and society. But as we're talking about children, where do you see the role there of this, these, some of these changes in the education system in India having an impact positively or, you know, in challenging ways around that sense of rootedness or Indian identity, diversity across India, citizenship, all of those kinds of questions?

I feel that, Tim, India is known for big families. We are known to live in a bigger family with our grandparents, with our uncles and aunties, one house, and we all live together to understand each other, relationship, respect, or prayers. Energies, understanding the need of praying in a particular language, in a particular posture to sit, to eat our food, the meal times, the amount of meal that we have, the way we live our life according to the weather, the temperature, the season, and various other aspects. I feel that a child today is a little lost because of the nuclear family, you know, it's blooming in India because of the father and the mother both are working and they have to go and join in a different state. They have to leave their joint family, they have to go and stay in a separate house where the child is all alone, or maybe two children or one child in the house. And the children are not knowing exactly what are bedtime stories from grandmother. They know bedtime stories from a book father reading, definitely a lot of great parenting is also happening. But the grandmother's story, which gives you a moral, and which doesn't have a right and a wrong and has slow pace of explaining the whole story to a child in such a way that if you do this, you become like this. And that validation of a mother or a grandmother with those gray hair makes the child believe that story to an extent that they don't even forget when they become the grandparents. Yeah, you know, that's the kind of connection the value India has for relationship, for customs, for culture, for the belief that we have, for good and evil, for the kind of prayers that we do for everyone, and some superstitions that we also have, which many people might think, "Oh, what are they talking about?" But that's the way that stops us before doing something which may be right, which may be wrong, but It comes from family to family, which bonds us together. And for example, if you come to my family, you will be invited with a namaste with both the hands. Please come inside. And the minute I do that, I made an effort to join my hands together, I gave my full focus, and I saw your face, I saw eye to eye, you felt welcomed, you felt given attention, you felt she's not having a mobile in her hand talking to someone else, greeting with another hand. Asking me to sit, asking somebody else to give me a glass of water. That's not how culturally India is. India is 'Atati Devo Bhava'— if you come in, you are like a God coming to my house. You have been sent by a message by the universe that you had to enter my house, and it is my assumed responsibility to give you that respect, food, water, help, support, and make you feel very calm. With all your energies, so that when you're leaving my house, you're saying, 'God bless you,' and I gather that blessing as a return. And that's the value that we need to start doing in our country again. It is reducing, I think, mostly because— I, I don't want to blame it again and again, but yes, lockdown and mobile and internet and social media has taken away the children even from their own families. It's like a guest coming is a little later role. They in their own houses are inside a room sitting in a corner with their mobile, irrespective of a sister or a brother sitting in the same room. So the value, the culture, the festival, the dressing, the sweets that we make, the dances that we do, the music, the rhythm— everything has an energy which is going to make sure that the child thinks in a different way when such circumstances or such festivals come in their life. And this gives them a motor energy inside them to break from the monotony of their regular chores and get into a happy mode. We are naturally very happy-born people. But because of all these conditions in our life, you know, everybody says, I need a break, I want to go outside, I want to go out and travel. No, We need a break to make some sweets. Let's do a break and sing some songs together. Let's have a festival together. And that's why festivals in India are very profound because everybody has to come back. I don't know whether you know about one of the most prestigious festivals in India called as Chhat Puja. I don't know whether you've heard that. This is a prayer done for the sun, that is the sun energy. And even the children who are in US, Russia, UK, they all travel back to India to their mother when the mother does this fasting for 3 days. And you will not believe me that I have my friends, I have children in my classroom, I have so many other people as teachers who take an off during this time, and the prayer is done for 3 days for the Sun and praying them for the energy, and it definitely makes a lot of difference in their belief system. It makes them more bonded.

Interesting.

So it is, it is a beautiful culture that we have in our country which has to be survived.

Absolutely fascinating to me because one of the things I'm particularly keen on is the idea that education has become synonymous with formal schooling. And actually what you've just been talking about there is, to me, is absolutely as deep education in terms of the formation of society and people in process of understanding cultural values, understanding who they are, understanding how they connect and fit with their environment. There's something very, very important happening through all of those, as you say, making sweets, festivals. They might sound to young people or to people outside of that culture like a frivolous extra, but actually there's something very deep happening there, as you say, with the grandmother passing on wisdom or passing on stories, or even if it's just social norms about how to behave in this environment, there's an education happening there in a very powerful way, which I think certainly even, even in the way that we've structured schooling to be very standardized and acultural, you could say, just you learn about cultures, but you don't learn to be in culture somehow. It's a really interesting lack, I think, not just in India, I would say across, um, the world and, and that reconnection with culture and who we are. I wonder what you think what role can a school play in reconnecting young— because obviously what you're talking about there is happening in the family very much so, and in the home, in the extended family, in the community. With the way that we've got currently structured schools, you know, what are there things that schools could do to help to reconnect young people with some of that deep learning of cultural connection?

I think that has to be a very strong bonding between the teacher and the students, the leader and the teacher, the leader and the management, the management and the community. This is how it's going to bring a change, because the minute I go inside my class, I'll just talk about my 40 children in the classroom. If I am sorted with the thinking of the children in the classroom, they know me, I know them, I know how exactly the classrooms look like, What are they thinking? How are they feeling? What is happening in the class today? What happened yesterday? When they emotional tangent, and they know where they are at this particular 30 minutes of the classroom, they feel more connected, rather than suddenly opening a book and telling them, this is what is in the curriculum. Let's start with this experiment. You do this, you do this, this is one team, all that is a part of the pedagogy that a teacher has to enhance her I can equip myself with. But there has to be a very delicate information that has to be translated in the class that you all are loved, whoever you are, whichever families you're coming from. You might have had a bad evening or maybe the morning, but when you are here, you all are equal and you all are going to be respected for who you are. Let's connect with each other first within and then I connect with you. Now when I talk about it, it's very quick, but it takes time for a teacher to know her children, their language, their limitation, their expectation from the whole year, their relationship with each other in the class. When this will happen through a teacher in a classroom and with the parents along with the teacher in different meetings, then only a change of this value, this rootedness, ethical mooring, the communication, critical thinking, imagination, creativity would come because children will be at ease. Yeah, they will be who they are for in the classroom. They will not be expected to be in a particular form. They are expected to be who they are. And the second most important thing which we are working also on the curriculum is And then allow the children to decide how the class can be. You know, that also makes a lot of difference because children, when talk to other children in the classroom, they make sure that the empathy is re-energized. The children are able to communicate with their own language, which may be body language or maybe the smile, and they can actually connect with each other to help the teacher. Then now the class is ready to learn. You know, when that kind of a transition would take place, the culture, the value, the academics, the understanding of their own mind will be clearer to them. They'll know their strength and their challenges. They will know what to tell to the teacher. So a very evolved teacher is required in the classroom, not a teacher who knows everything. And so, I will be the one to tell you everything. If you have something to tell me, tell me, but I'm not sure if I'm going to agree to it. No. It should be, everything is right. Let's decide and prioritize which one to pick. So I think that kind of a change will bring what we are trying to bring through our new education policy.

That's amazing. Yeah, and thank you. That's, yeah, I mean, as you said, it's so easy to describe, but deeply complex and human to do. And I think that's one of the things, I mean, it really made me think about your namaste, you know, the moment of welcoming a guest into the house, because that's essentially what you're doing. As a teacher is you are, as you said, not busily focused on what have we got to get done? What's the curriculum saying? What's happening? You know, what are the outcomes that we have to achieve by the end of this lesson? Everyone becomes very distracted by those kind of funneling priorities. And actually you don't take the moment to really connect and welcome young people into the class even at the beginning. And then generally, as you say, just generally this kind of connected human environment, which is also very difficult. I think to me, that's what makes education again, a deeply human endeavor. And the conversation about advanced AI technology in the classroom, you know, all of those kinds of things often I think are a distraction from what you've just described so beautifully, which is this incredible complex dance that happens between a teacher and a group of young people when things are going well. Obviously it doesn't— every day doesn't go so well, and sometimes it's difficult and people feel disconnected and there's conflict, etc. But coming back to that space of connection somehow is, I think, is just such an important part that education and schooling, even when it's done really well, really well, can play.

Absolutely. I totally agree with you, Tim Logan. It has a lot of thinking required, and a very evolved educationist has to be in the classroom now onwards to make sure she's having a diverse group of children with calmness, with thinking, good knowledge of a subject, good command over her thoughts, good line of action what she's planning. And she has to be equipped to receive any kind of outcome to make sure it becomes as a feedback for her next class, because that is only going to make her keep rolling.

Hi everyone. I'm Vardhan Kabra. I'm co-founder and head of school at Fountainhead School in Surat. It's an international school which runs the IB curriculum, all the 3 programs. I've been doing this for the last nearly 18, 19 years. And recently I've written a book on reimagining Indian education. I felt that there is a lot that needs to change. So the book is my way of sharing my ideas on what needs to change in Indian education.

Fantastic. Thank you, Radhan. It's a real pleasure to chat to you. And we met in New Delhi, which was my first time in India. And it was a real— it was great to meet you, but also have a look at the copy of the book. And I've read the book with great interest. And I'm still learning a lot about the country as a whole. But it was a fascinating kind of overview for me of, you know, many of the challenges that face the current education system across the country, bearing in mind it's a huge and diverse country, but also a really visionary kind of imagining of what it could develop into if things align, policy aligns, and things like that. So perhaps to start with, I thought if we could take a look at some of the later chapters in the book where you talk a little bit about some of the challenges, and if we start there, then we can move more into what we could change, what the reimagining might look like. So one, in Chapter 19, you talk about the state of public education in India, and I'm interested, obviously the public-private discussion is a very live one in India, I understand. And as it is worldwide in terms of how much public systems can innovate and move and change, given the inertia and the rigid structure, I think that is very real in public systems, can private systems to be a bit more agile to move and innovate. There's interesting dynamics globally about that. But what, so what do you see as your analysis of the public system in India in terms of its challenges?

So let me, I mean, start by just talking about a very simple way of understanding the state of public education in India. If we were to do a survey of all the central government employees and the state government employees, and ask them where their kids are studying today. My assumption— I don't know if there are formal surveys on this, but there are multiple informal surveys on this which, which are very clear that rarely any central or state government employee sends their kids to a public school. And then if you ask especially the people who are working in education departments, you will find pretty much no one. And I know I've, I've spoken to a few, or rather multiple people in education in the government, and all of them are very clear that the private schools is where their kids go. Now, to me, that itself is a very clear indication of the quality of public education. It is obviously not what government employees want, and they want good education for their kids. So, and about 50% of kids, in fact, slightly more than that, still study in public schools across India. So, I think there is a lot of work that needs to be done. The unfortunate reality is that education is the kind of sector which requires a lot of deep multiple interactions. It's not like other services, if you want to just talk about it from a services viewpoint. And given India's general weak capacity to deliver services, perhaps publicly provided education is not the best way to go for India. And yes, there is a lot of debate on the fact that, okay, a lot of countries across the world, public education is really high quality. Especially, say, in the US or in Europe in general. And India also needs to be going in that direction. There are a lot of educationists and, you know, policymakers who think in that direction. But that's the thinking that's been in place for the last 75 years. Or even if you think that last 15 years, India has progressed significantly on other economic factors, but there has been very little progress based on various governmental and non-governmental surveys and studies done in quality of public education.

So it's, it's okay for somebody else's child in the rural areas perhaps, but as a civil servant, as a government official, maybe working in the public education department, it's not a choice I would make for my own children. That's, and that's quite telling, obviously. But also, could you perhaps say just a little bit about what are some of the specific challenges that maybe the teachers face or that the students face in those public schools particularly?

Nearly or more than 60% of the schools are very small schools in the public sector. They have less than 100 kids. Many of them are about 50 kids and they are from grade 1 to 8 at this point of time, typically. But with new National Education Policy, even the early years is supposed to be part of the schooling system. Till now it has not been the case. With that smaller number of an average school, the allocation of teachers is, is not high enough. I mean, it's typically 2 to 3 teachers which are teaching like across grades, across subjects. So while the teachers are well qualified and well paid also, if you look at the average or median salaries in the industry, they're well paid as in the public schools, but they just don't have the structure or the framework that allows them to deliver.

Yeah.

In addition to that, because they are government employees, they are also given a lot of non-academic duties. Which may include running a census for the state or election duties and many other non-academic work come in. And I'm not just talking about non-academic work within the school, but just beyond the school, like for—

interesting.

Yeah, as a civil servant, I mean, what are the duties that they have? So a lot of their time goes into doing that. And the third, I think, to me most important is the fact that there is very little accountability at a local school, neither the headteacher nor the teachers are directly accountable to the parents or a local municipality or local, you know, committee of parents and other people. They are all accountable only to the state, and the state cannot take a lot of action because government employees cannot be terminated. At best, they can only be transferred. So there is not a lot of incentive for the school teachers to work really hard in addition to all of these, the other points.

Yeah, okay, that's very challenging. And do you, I mean, your chapter 21 in your book is entitled Can Private Schools Serve Everyone? So I'm really interested then to know that if you talk about, for example, this idea of accountability, the market accountability of private institutions, you know, from a consumer perspective, if the parents are paying for this school, they will demand more high-quality service, etc. So is that part of the solution, do you feel, in terms of reimagining education in India, that role of private schools? Is that something that can be much more widespread? Do you think can be beneficial? Are there any perhaps also unintended negative consequences of that as well? What are your thoughts about private schools?

So again, about 47% kids already study in private schools in India, and of which one of the myths is that private schools are very expensive. In fact, private schools on an average is around ₹24,000-25,000 per annum per kid. I'll not translate into dollars, but I think that's—

but I'll give you—

could you put that in context of kind of an average income? Maybe that would help.

I think there is a range of average incomes because the incomes varies by state. But let me give you the other way around to say that, okay, maybe an entry-level fresher would make in a basic entry-level job will make about ₹20,000 a month. So 1/10th, 1/12th of that income might go towards education for that sort of family.

Okay.

And one of the other myths is that public— there isn't enough spending happening in public schools. While the average private school charges ₹24,000 to ₹30,000, the average government school might be spending ₹40,000 to ₹60,000 per student per annum. So maybe 1.5 to 2 times what is being spent in private schools. And there is a study by Professor Geeta Gandhi Kendan who— that basically at 1/3 the cost, these low-income schools, private schools are giving the same results, academic learning outcomes as the public schools.

Interesting. So just to clarify on that point, you're saying that the private schooling is 1/3 the cost, whoever is paying, whether it's the government public funds or the private individuals, parents, families, it's one-third of the cost in terms of efficiency of the use of the rupees to provide a certain level of education.

Absolutely. Which is where, and it's not just me, a lot of people in education, as well as economists, I would say actually economists more than education, have said that for India, the way to go is towards, you know, some sort of a voucher system or a direct benefit transfer to the deserving parents or to all parents, that's for economists and policymakers to take a call on, because the amount of spending that is being done on students in the public schools is not justified in terms of outcomes. And as you already mentioned earlier, the moment the parent is a paying consumer of a school, especially if it's a private school, then the accountability increases. Because if you don't perform in the next 6 months or say a year, I will have the option of moving my kid to some other school. Right now, there is no choice for parent who does not have the income or the access to a private school, because they are stuck with whichever is the closest public school that's available to them.

Sure. And can I ask on that point about access that I'm assuming that would vary significantly between families living in the rural areas compared to cities like New Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai?

Absolutely, it does. It absolutely does. But a lot of low-income families living in urban areas. In fact, most of them would prefer a private low-income school even if there is a free government school right next to them, because they can see the difference in outcomes.

Yeah.

And in rural areas, you're right, the access would be difficult for private schools to bring in, which is why a noted economist, Professor Arvind Panagaria, he's been— he was the vice chair of ETIO, which is basically a policymaking body for the government. He himself proposes that public schools will continue to run, but the voucher system should apply to both public schools and private schools. So the parent could take the money to a public school, and the public school will only get that much. So therefore, the accountability on both sides, on all kinds of schools remains. So instead of it being only for private schools, the vouchers can work anywhere where there is a school which is offering good quality education.

Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting opening up, isn't it, of the market. And, you know, I know that obviously with charter schools in the US and free schools in the UK and the voucher systems in Sweden, etc., there are multiple case studies of where these things have been tried. I think, you know, quite often it's the families with resource that end up winning from, you know, it's not necessarily a level playing field when we're talking about access to education at any point with any kind of system, but it's Yeah, it's an interesting possibility to think through.

You're absolutely right. And there is a huge distinction, however, between a developed country like Europe or US, which is trying out a voucher system or a charter sort of school versus India. In India, anyone who has a certain income level is anyway already sending their kid to a private school, which is not the case in most of the developed countries. It's maybe, it's a very small minority, you know, maybe 5%, maybe less, 10% of kids who are going to private schools. And they are, yes, Yeah, a lot more expensive.

Yeah, very different context. Very different. Yeah, interesting. So one of the things that I was also very interested to talk to the young people about when we were working with them in India on our trip was the kind of pathway through from high school through to university. And there's this role, I think, as I understand, of tutors and coaches to really support young people to make it to the next stage. So that you've got these very high-pressured entrance tests. And there's this, it seems to be this whole sub-market, if you like, within education of coaches and tutors supporting the young people to get to the best universities and colleges within India in order to then obviously access the best jobs ultimately, which was fascinating. Where do you see that kind of creating some downwards pressure on schools? I mean, how does that interact with what you're doing, for example, yourselves in Fountainhead, you know, with your graduates? What's the interplay there with that kind of structure?

So I'll take a specific example here, which is called the Joint Entrance Examination for Engineering Colleges, which is basically the Indian Institute of Technology. And there are other colleges also who follow that, but the IITs are the most prestigious, most sought-after engineering institutes in India. Over the last, say, last decade, about between 12 to 15 lakh students. So that's basically 1.2 to 1.5 million students sit for that entrance examination every year. But the percentage of students who get through is about 10,000 students out of that total number. So you can do the math. It's a very small fraction. So now it is high stakes because for a lot of people in India, the getting to the IITs is the way to success in life. That's been historically the case, but it's also in some sense a perception. We, especially with industry opening up, there is so much more potential for non-engineering, non-medical careers, but it is also difficult to get there. I mean, they are less certain in some, in many ways. And because there is such a high competition, there is a need for coaching and tutoring. And in fact, all the students who go through this, you know, intense examination are typically studying for 2 full years for the coaching examination. That's their last 2 years, grade 11 and 12. But many of them start as early as grade 6 and 7.

Wow.

To study for these entrance examinations, there are schools which operate as integrated schools. So they're only doing a little bit school curriculum. But a lot of it is preparing the kids for the entrance examinations going forward.

Fascinating. Fascinating. And can I ask, how do those 2 things differ in terms of curriculum in terms of the types of things you would be teaching in those integrated schools?

Well, the focus is a lot on problem solving in terms of those— the kind of problems that could come in physics, chemistry, maths, or biology in the case of medical exams in the examination. So the preparation is not just on the concept, but in like solving some problems there. So like, like trigonometric identities, or coordinate geometry, or quantum mechanics. I mean, these are all things which will be taught later, but the preparation is towards that from the beginning. So you're basically doing a lot of pattern recognition of the kind of problems that would come in in the exam and then keep, keep preparing for it over a period of time.

And how does that narrow the scope of the curriculum that you would otherwise be teaching in a non-integrated school?

So I think the first thing that happens is, uh, because it's a purely paper-based examination there is very little experiential learning happening around science especially. I mean, and science has to be experiential for it to be really meaningful. There has to be an experimental cycle. Students need to learn how to frame hypothesis, run, design experiments, you know, observe, do an evaluation and all of that. But they're doing nothing. None of those things are happening because the examination is purely objective., and you're just solving, you know, it's either multiple choice questions. And there are, there is a second stage where you have more open-ended questions, but they're also very much, all of it is on paper. There's nothing which is practical.

So just narrow knowledge-based, concept-based questions that don't require reflection or, yeah, interesting. And what, what also therefore happens to, because I am hearing you talking a lot about, you know, the science, the engineering, the maths type subjects, what happens then to the arts and the humanities and the languages?

So first of all, I mean, for most Indian parents, I mean, that's not— those are areas where students only go if they are not good at engineering, I mean, the science and maths. So because you're not good enough is where you end up with arts, humanities, and languages.

Interesting. And do you see that changing at all? In the kind of dynamics of the way that the demography is changing or the socioeconomic status of families or the urbanization, or is that, is that changing at all?

Only to a very small extent. I mean, say there are families above a certain income level, which would be significantly higher than the numbers I talked about earlier. They would be okay with their kids going to non-STEM, non-engineering careers, non-medical careers. But for the majority right now, that's the only route that they see to success in life.

So obviously, bearing in mind that there are millions of different interpretations of that, and we're not generalizing to, you know, psychoanalyzing every family in the same way that this is why they do it in terms of motives, but how much of that is an instrumental motive towards safety and security of income? And I don't know, how is it? Is there also a kind of a status piece in there about good jobs leading towards higher status, or socially, or what are the motivation patterns you see in terms of why people do that?

I, I think both of them are equally important. The security and financial safety is absolutely the first thing that comes up, because the jobs that come out that, that are available after the IITs or a good medical college, significantly better in terms of income, as compared to, I mean, the next set of engineering, medical, or non-STEM courses, I mean, like humanities, arts, languages, so on and so forth. So there is that. And it is also a question of status, because engineers, doctors, lawyers, and maybe chartered accountants, these are like the 4 big professions which everyone is sort of aware about. That's what I mean, most people want their kids to go to. Maybe this generation of parents is more open-minded, maybe, but it's still for the majority, they don't know how to access these non-STEM careers in a meaningful manner. So there aren't, I mean, the reality also is that there aren't enough high-quality colleges, both in STEM as well as in non-STEM area. So therefore, there are multiple studies which say that 80 to 85% of engineers coming out of engineering colleges in India are not employable in terms of skill sets that are required By the industry.

Oh, interesting. So even the industry's moving much faster than the curriculum in even these very high status top engineering colleges, et cetera. And then there's also the kind of the vicious cycle there of, I can imagine that people are coming out of these colleges, not necessarily wanting to go and be teachers, right? The education and teaching would not be a, probably a desirable profession in that kind of ranking of the types of career choices you've just described. So you then end up with this perhaps low down the list being an educator or a teacher, and therefore the vicious cycle continues.

Yeah, absolutely. I think there is very little interest from anyone who has the capacity, I mean, to do well in academics to become an educator. So there is very little interest. And those who do typically are teaching in the coaching industry, where there is significantly more financial incentive, because it's based on your performance directly. And parents are also willing to pay for that a lot more.

Okay, yeah, you tell the story in your book of the two friends who, uh, one is going into the— absolutely, trying to set up his own school, and the other is going into the— well, they're doing it together, and then one deviates off to go into the coaching industry because there's just clearly a lot more money and status to be had there compared to the hard work of trying to set up a school in India. It's very interesting.

Absolutely.

Was that your story, or is that— I was interested.

I mean, yes, I mean, it's not exactly my story, I would say, but I do have A lot of, I mean, my batchmates from IIT, IIT Bombay, as well as IIM-A, who have gone into coaching. I mean, coaching or edtech, I mean, and that's, those are far more financially rewarding careers. I mean, and quicker, much quicker, I mean, to make a record there.

Can I ask you, if you don't mind, what, what was the motivation for you going into education, given everything you've just said?

I actually studied in like 11 different schools in India. And I was also for 2 years outside of India. So then I ended up in the top colleges in India because I was a good student. I went through this coaching sort of scenario. But what I realized is that the whole education process left a lot of scope for improving pedagogy as well as, I mean, the joy and meaning that students can derive out of education. So that really was my driving factor to bring that joy, meaning back into education. To whatever extent that I can.

Amazing. That's brilliant. So, well, I mean, that's a perfect segue then into your kind of more visionary reimagining. Perhaps you could just talk through some of the kind of key areas where you see the possibility for change to bring some of that joy and meaning. I mean, you know, these, they sound romantic and idealistic notions. I mean, I'm completely with you 100%. The question, the question is up against the hard edges of the market-driven system of STEM careers and, you know, investment in certain sectors, etc., etc., you know, talking about joy and meaning is a challenging one. But I think we agree this is really, really important. Where do you see possibilities for shift and change in the system in the way that you talk about it in the book?

I think the first piece for me is about critically examining every piece of syllabi that is being taught in, in schools. And this I'm talking about from a larger Indian context and not talking about, say, international schools, which, which have already done that to a large extent. But there is a lot of emphasis on memorizing facts and information across subject areas without really understanding any, anything deeper than that. I mean, like, take an example as simple as, say, photosynthesis. I mean, students will learn the definitions of photosynthesis, the equations related to the formula, but have very little connection to actually what is happening with respect respect to plants and photosynthesis in real life. I mean, so there is very little understanding. They've not done any experiments, they've not done any analysis of, okay, what are the best conditions for photosynthesis, or soil conditions, etc., etc. So in reality, they're not learning science, they're just memorizing facts and information. So there needs to be a big shift for Indian education. And it's obviously driven by the assessment, the board examinations, whether it's a state board or a national board, which they have these 10th and 12th standard board examination, and that's what they're asking. So therefore, Schools and teachers and parents, that's what they're teaching. I mean, because there's no alternative towards it. The good thing is there is recognition and some movement towards more application-based, more competency-based questions in the board examination. It's still not as we would like it to be, but at least there is a movement towards that particular area. So that I think is the first thing to be examined very carefully. And I have spoken to a lot of— as I said, I'm an engineer myself, and I've asked a lot of people who are not just working in non-engineering fields, but also in engineering, that how much of what they learned in school is actually what they're implementing. And the typical answer is very little of it.

Interesting.

So, and I think therefore the shift needs to happen from an era where, say, just knowing facts and information was important to this era where that is available freely on the internet. Now with generative AI, you get not just unstructured information, but you get structured information back to you.

Sure.

If you can, you put in the right prompt. So there is very little need for that happening, or the memorization part of it. It needs to move towards skills, which are far more important in today's industry, but also in academic careers. Even good academic careers require good research skills, self-management skills, you know, the ability to understand yourself, your motivation, those things. So that's one part that I would really strongly—

just to come back to your point about the role of private schools, I wonder what, because I can imagine some of these things, and you talk about project-based learning and self-directed learning in the book as well. I can imagine some of these things you are implementing in your context, in your school, right? And I wonder what, how do you see your role as seeding some of these things, showing that they are effective, not only effective for kind of the deep learning that you're talking about. It's not that people are coming out with zero knowledge of the world. In fact, they're potentially coming out with a deeper knowledge of the world in other ways. But it also, as you said, has these other impacts on the way that— how they feel about learning, their joy, their curiosity, etc., towards learning. What do you see your role as there in terms of informing innovation, communicating that more broadly across the system?

Yeah, I think the book is in fact the first step in that direction, or is one of the important steps in that direction to highlight the issues as well as possible solutions, which is why I'm glad to have opportunities like this. And I'm taking up as many other opportunities as possible to talk about, you know, both the problems and the possible solutions. Other than that, directly within the school environment, we are, we are very open to bringing in people to come in and see what we are doing. And a lot of them are coming in to see what we're doing. So that's another way we are doing it. The other thing is, we've not yet got there, but we will, we want to get there, is to start doing if not quantitative studies, but at least qualitative studies and put them out for the education community to understand. Quantitative studies within a school system, I think, are really challenging. Plus the fact that the things we talk about are a lot more subjective when we talk about joy and meaning and say 21st century skills and attitudes, they are far more subjective as compared to the grades or Ivy League admissions.

I mean, Yeah.

So that bit is a little more difficult to talk about. But at least to the extent that we can talk about qualitative stuff, case studies, we would, we want to do that in the next few months, years.

Yeah, very good. I mean, there is a very interesting irony in a way and tension definitely within what you're saying there about how do you show through quote unquote robust or rigorous research, because as soon as you start doing that, you end up having to play the game as it is of the certain things that society is valuing. And you have to show through your, through the research that these are things that are valued. They're things often that can be countable, not things that are, as you say, much more subjective, but subjective, not, that's not a dirty word, right? That's not a, that's not a negative aspect. That's the depth and important aspect of what's happening, but it's very difficult to kind of funnel those things into this evidence-based academic demand of a certain type of research. So I feel, I feel your pain on that one. Um, but as you said, it's just so important to be building and you're not just writing the book and, and talking about it, which I really appreciate, but also you're showing and building that and doing that in place. And I'm sure you are having some interesting conversations with parents in your community about some of these tensions. It's not straightforward. Some of them perhaps are have questions about, well, is this going to work? Is this self-directed learning approach going to be fine for my child? Is my child going to be fine when they come out the other side of this course? And there's a lot of trust, there's a lot of interesting communication that goes on there. And you have to be doing that in place in order to, to demonstrate that, you know, these things really do work.

We're starting to have some bits of hard evidence as well. Some of our students who've been doing project-based learning primarily for the last 4-5 years gave the same board examinations as the other students. The— they gave the IB, NYPE assessment, and they scored better, or at least same as the average student who did all of that only for 4 years, 5 years. So, okay, we already have some evidence. We can talk about that to parents. We are also working with another school for the last— for this year, which is a traditional national board school, and we've implemented some elements of project-based learning, experiential learning into their curriculum, into what they're doing on a day-to-day basis. The good thing is that teachers, as well as the parents, are appreciating that approach a lot. So I think any parent who has thought even a little bit about education recognizes that there is a significant need to go beyond just memorizing information in the textbook and giving examination. And they can see the, they can see the joy and, you know, engagement of the child when they're doing that. So I think that part of it is in some sense relatively easier to solve. The difficult part, of course, will remain the high-stake entrance examination, admission to universities, because that's not going to change quickly. I mean, unfortunately. So maybe, but, but the way I, I'm talking to a lot of these other parents and in fact educationists is that, okay, at least till high school or before high school, we can do exactly what we want. No, even the national and the state boards are more than happy to allow you all pedagogical freedom that you want.

Yeah, no, I mean, there's lots of very positive indications there. Great. And I just was curious, are you also connecting networks of similar people doing similar things across India? Because obviously, you know, it's great to be connected internationally with people doing interesting and similar things, but people who are experiencing the similar context that you have across India, I wonder, is there a a growing network of schools like yours, perhaps most of them private, I don't know, but trying to connect and share and do similar things?

I think, uh, I wouldn't say that it is as formal as it can be, but there are informal networks. For example, the international schools obviously already have networks where, where a lot of sharing and discussion on these things happen. The IB has formal networks, but I think the— maybe there is a need for progressive pedagogical networks, I mean, whether it's self-directed, project-based learning, experiential learning. So we do need a little more work on that. I wouldn't say that we've taken significant efforts in putting together a network, but I think that's a great suggestion. And I mean, we would like to work on it.

Yeah, no, great. I mean, you're doing a huge amount already. I don't want to add more to your plate.

I was just one—

I was just curious as to how, you know, because these things, as you're seeding these innovations, they need to also connect and grow across contexts and not just, you know, we know of the schools.

So we know of the schools, we follow them on the, I mean, their websites or whatever they're posting on the internet. That does happen. But I think that the sharing and, you know, discussion is like a forum for it has not yet happened. So yeah, I think interesting. Good.

Thank you, brother. And this is great. And I mean, was there anything else you, we haven't covered that you just wanted, wanted to mention? But I really appreciate what you're doing. And thank you so much for sharing. For the book and for sharing about, you know, the work you're doing in school to build some of those innovations.

Yeah, I think what I can add is that in terms of policy, there is this National Education Policy which has come out in 2020. So it's very much in the right direction in terms of, you know, what the guidelines are saying, what the policy is saying, that okay, there needs to be a lot more focus on higher-order thinking skills such as critical thinking skills, research skills. There needs to be a lot less content. In fact, the National Council for Education Research has already reduced content in many of the grades, especially in the high school, by almost 30-40%. So that recognition is already there. Of course, education is such a legacy system that for changes to happen, I think, is on the ground are going to take a lot more time. And there are a lot of vested interests as well, because Say someone is in the coaching industry, they don't want things to become simpler. They want it to become tougher because that's when students will go to them.

Hi everyone, I'm Anushka Jolly. I'm 15 years old and I study at Pathways School, Gurgaon. Uh, I've been working on bullying and mental health since I was 9 years old. So for 6 years now I've been at it. And I'm trying to change the way we look at adolescent mental health and hopefully create a big impact in the lives of 1.3 billion adolescents.

Amazing, amazing. So firstly, thank you so much for agreeing to talk to me about this topic. So I'm really excited to get your perspective for two reasons. One is that obviously you are a student and just started grade 10 in school in India, but also the fact that you have done enough reflecting on your experience in school to then make a step and take action around what that means for you and how you might respond differently. And I, I'd love you to tell the listeners a little bit more about that work as we go through the conversation. But firstly, if I can, can I just ask you just to reflect on what your experience, both positive and not so positive, about your schooling has been through— it could be starting through primary school or in secondary school, high school, you know, what, what are the kinds of things that you've really enjoyed? What are the kinds of things, um, that could have been a bit different in relation to— could be teaching, could be curriculum, could be, you know, just your, your social experience, all of it.

So I'll start from the beginning, and that would be my parents' perspective. So I, um, have been in an IB school since I think kindergarten, and they put me in an IB school. Their thought process was that the world is changing, moving towards a more internationally connected place. And if there was a school system that valued that sentiment, they would want to put me in that school system. And that's when they started researching about the IB and the kind of work they do, and they found it very interesting. So I joined Pathways. And I don't— my earliest memories of school was, I think, the first thing was getting introduced to the learner profiles. So we used to do these activities on getting to know the learner profiles and reflecting on how we've been embodying them. And I could see that that theme has kind of stayed consistent throughout middle school. We've always spoken about learner profiles. So in case, you know, the listeners don't know what learner profiles are, they're 10 attributes that IB has put out and that they're basically things like risk-taker, open-minded, principled, that students kind of aim to embody, aim to put into practice in their daily lives. So I saw that from the very beginning because I was in an IB school. I was always striving to be a better version of myself. And this started as early as kindergarten. We were taught, you know, at that time being principled had a different meaning. It was simply to, you know, not copy each other's tests and, you know, tie our shoelaces and be on time. And now we've seen that even though the trait has stayed the same, the meaning has kind of evolved as we've grown up, but we've stayed true to our roots.

Interesting.

So that's been one experience. I think definitely being able to continuously grow and work on myself and being okay with that, because, you know, at the end of the day, we all need to strive to be better versions of ourselves.

Yeah.

Even if we feel like, okay, there's no improving, there is always improving. So that's something that has stayed with me.

So there's a few things that I'd love to pick up on. First one being the, you know, your parents choosing a school locally in New Delhi, in India, and then this idea of being international. How do you, or have you had discussions with your parents about how do those two things flow together? Like, you know, that idea about your, your identity as an Indian citizen, as someone from New Delhi, from a particular place, and as well as this idea of being global and international. What do those two things kind of mean together to you?

So I would say at the end of the day, we are citizens of our country, but we all coexist in the same world. And, you know, we've discussed interdependence as a concept extensively at school. And I've learned that, you know, countries are dependent on each other and people are dependent on each other. And so, you know, at the end of the day, we have to work together internationally as a whole. And to do that, one needs to have the foresight to think about how their actions are impacting other people who are not in the same situation, be it financially, emotionally, or, you know, anything at all. And to do that, you have to look at people who are outside of the kind of culture that you are living in. So because when I was growing up, obviously when you're, what, 2 or 3, you only really think about your, your family or friends and you have this inner circle. And so their thought was, if I put her in an IB school, then she's forced to kind of step out of her comfort zone and step into other people's shoes and look at life from a different cultural standpoint. That's what their thought was, you know, that at the end of the day, we want a culturally sensitive and evolved person, you know, because they didn't have that exposure growing up. They didn't have international schools. They didn't— they were just, you know, in India. Their entire family life, everything has been in India. But they want me to kind of take my mission to other countries. And that's why, even though maybe they didn't have a very clear idea of this is why they wanted to put me in an IB school, but piecing everything together, I think this is their thought behind it.

Interesting. And can I also ask that idea of other people who have different perspectives coming from different starting points and different lived experiences. Obviously some of that is cultural and international, but also some of that is within India, people who are coming from different backgrounds who have less privilege, honestly, than, than you have been fortunate enough to have. And, you know, people who are starting from backgrounds where they can't afford to go to certain schools. So I don't know how much you have thought about that or have perhaps have friends in different contexts or family in other places. Could you say a little bit about what that kind of experience means to you as personally, but also how are other people navigating in India that kind of educational choice landscape?

Yeah, so I've always felt the same, you know, because of course studying in an IB school and having such a great education means that I am extremely privileged, and not just like financially, but also in the kind of thought process that my parents had while sending me to this kind of school. So I've always thought about it, you know, in, in this way that if I am lucky enough to receive this education, which allows me to, you know, understand other people's perspectives without even experiencing that firsthand, I could use it to my advantage and work for them. And so based on this, actually, that's when my work on bullying and mental health really started, even though it started because I got bullied myself. But because, you know, I was always taught to be open-minded, I was able to put myself in someone else's shoes and imagine that, okay, if I was able to go through this, if I was able to overcome it, it's because of my parents and my understanding school. What about kids who maybe don't come from the same background or the same emotional maturity as I do? What will they do? And that's what kind of inspired me to take action against the issue and then keep working on it. So I think, you know, you can't change where you're born, you can't change your destiny, but you can ensure that you use it to the best of your ability and actually help someone who maybe does not have that privilege that you do.

Yeah, that's interesting. And I'd love to hear a bit more about the work you're doing. But just going back to something you said earlier about kind of that commitment to learning and growing yourself, and perhaps some of that you may have learned from your parents as well, if they have that kind of disposition to the world and they're trying to support you to be open to growing. Is there anything that you could say from your experience in school helped to promote those kinds of ideas, or do you think that learning and growing disposition was something you were just kind of bringing with you anyway because you're that kind of person?

So I think it's a mix of two. Definitely it's been shaped by the school environment. And, you know, even if you have that fire in you to make a change, it has to be ignited by the environment that you're in. And of course, your school plays a huge role in that. So the same for me, really. After I experienced all of that and I decided I really want to do something about it, my first action was to draft up a Word document of, I think, 500 words where I just wrote about what I want to do. And after I showed it to my parents, the first person I showed it to was my teacher, and I felt comfortable in doing that. I wanted to get her feedback because I think that the kind of environment that's been established is that of autonomy, of voice, of choice, of action. And this has especially been taken forward because by project-based learning, starting from PYP, we used to do a lot of exhibitions, projects on certain issues, SDGs, that we really cared about. And so when I experienced this and I decided I want to do something about it, the reason that I decided to take action was because I didn't know that, you know, you could stay silent. I thought if there was something you were passionate about, you have to take action. That's how it works, because that's how our learning took place. So I think a lot of it came through because of the kind of activities that we did in class, the way that our curriculum was taught to us. Not necessarily what we learned, but how we learned really shaped the way I look at things.

Yeah, so it's almost like a normal— it became a normal thing to do.

Yeah.

Could I ask you, just before we get on to your work a bit more deeply, could I ask you about language? Because Obviously your school now is primarily an English medium school.

Yeah.

What language do you speak at home with your parents?

I speak a mix of English and Hindi. Hindi is my native language.

Okay.

Actually, it's been a ride for me when it comes to language because I learned Hindi till I think 5th grade, and in 6th grade I had the option to drop Hindi. So I dropped Hindi, I took up Spanish and English instead. And while Spanish is my favorite subject, I really love the language and I'm glad I was able to learn it. I think somewhere I definitely forgot a lot of Hindi. So I felt like, you know, also being in an Ivy school, you need to at the same time really stay true to your roots, not forget your native language.

Interesting. Yeah. Because it has that. Been an interesting thing at home in your family or with cultural things or maybe meeting grandparents or extended family if you're not speaking Hindi? Like, does that affect your life in any way?

So I, I mean, it's obviously a joke within my family. I, I'm definitely get teased because of it. But I know, I think sometimes there's a lot of disparity because I feel like even though we're in the same house, our education has like turned us into different human beings. So the kind of things I would talk about, the kind of language I would communicate to them, they wouldn't be able to directly relate to it, or there would be some kind of gap or some kind of like— you won't be able to fully, completely relate to each other like maybe my parents were able to relate to their parents. Yeah, so there's, there's that.

Interesting. So there's some kind of generational gap in relation to the type of education you're having. Is that only to do with language use, or is that also about the concepts that you're talking about, the things that you're actually— you know, the subjects that you're talking about?

Yeah, for sure. Because, I mean, as I said, because at that— their time and the kind of education that they received, it was a very national-level education. I mean, they didn't really talk about international subjects or concepts, which is something that is normal for me. So, you know, I will be talking about something they won't be able to understand. They will be talking about something I won't be able to understand. And while there is a midpoint in between that, like, we are able to find common things to talk about. Of course, I still think being different, having those different perspectives, is really great for my home environment. And I get a lot of very cool, constructive discussions at home. Because of the differing point of views that we bring.

Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, that's a great reflection, the fact that it's enriching everybody's life to have that mix of perspectives together. So then if we could just talk a little bit more about the actual work you've done, just so that you can tell listeners about that, because I think it, I mean, it's so impressive what you've achieved as well. As you said, kind of reflecting on your own experience of bullying and looking around and hearing of others experiencing bullying in schools. You then put some ideas down to your teacher, as you said, and then how did it grow from there?

So I created a small blog called Anti-Bullying Squad, and I just named it, and I wrote about bullying and my experiences. And then I, after that, I started taking sessions in schools where I would talk to them about bullying and mental health, and I was only about 9 or 10 at the time, uh, so I didn't have a lot of knowledge. So I was just kind of searching, writing, talking, that's it. And, um, that continued. The pandemic came, online sessions. I created an online program, collaborated with NGOs. So for 2-3 years, I was continuously doing groundwork, getting to know my issue better, talking to people who are directly involved in the situation. And then after I did some work, I sort of reflected on bullying as an issue and why is it so common. And I came to the conclusion that it's common because it's not reported on time. So based on that ideology, I created Kavach. Kavach was an anonymous bullying reporting platform using which a victim could report an incident and their school could see it. So it was based on education on bullying, sensitization, and then the other part of it was reporting, resolving the issues. But actually, after I launched Kavach, I started going to schools and asking for their feedback on Kavach as a platform. And although they really, really liked the idea that their reports were like now systematic and they could manage it better, they, they had two main feedbacks. So the first one was that this is great for bullying. But there are a lot of other issues that kids are facing, and some of it can't be resolved by reporting because it's not something that can be reported. Like, for example, exam stress is a big one, especially in India. My second feedback was that this is great for pointing out the problem, but we're looking for the more solution-oriented platform that can help us solve the problem. So that's when I went back to the drawing board. I started thinking about what I could do to make Kavach better and address all this feedback. After months of thinking, I came up with Kavach 2.0, which was a second version of Kavach. Yeah. Kavach 2.0 is a completely different app from the first version. So now this is basically kind of a safe haven for any adolescent. Where they can access positive self-help content on any problem that they're facing, whether it's exam stress, you're having questions about something, you're feeling lonely, any aspect of their life they're facing a problem with, that content is available on the app. They can watch a video about it, read about it, learn about it, and solve it on their own. Second is the community feature. So on this platform, they can actually talk to other adolescents. Who are going through the same thing and vent it out, you know, feel more supported in their struggles. Because I think 90% of the problem comes from not having enough support or not having someone who can listen to you and give you that empathy and just be there for you. So that's how Coverage 2.0 kind of came into place. And I wanted to address— so basically, according to WHO, 10% of adolescents are going through a serious mental disorder. But I want to address the 90% that isn't going through a mental disorder, as in doesn't need therapy, but they still need some kind of support to just tide through the anguish of being an adolescent, everyday issues. And I feel like if these issues aren't addressed at a stage where it's manageable, it could bubble up into something much worse. So that's Coverage 2.0 for the 90%. For the 10%, I decided let's do something about that too. And I started researching on immersive therapy, metaverse, Web 3.0, and I started getting very, very interested into that. And so now I'm working on the first mental health metaverse for adolescents in the whole world, and I'm excited to launch both of them 28th October. Something around that date. So to see the response.

Wow. Amazing. I love how you've kind of taken something that you lived and then, you know, responded to, but also even more so just continuously learned through the process. Like, you know, the fact that you are getting these, this feedback from people using it to, in order to keep responding and it's, you know, you've kept going through this process of iteration and learning. Just amazing. And I know that you've been recognized and, you know, celebrated nationally for some of this work as well, right?

Yeah, I, so this year I won the Pradhan Mantri Rashtriya Bal Puraskar, the Prime Minister National Award. I received that from the Honorable Prime Minister and the President of India. So, which is great.

Wow. No, it's amazing. I mean, you, you know, obviously you're an amazing example of what's possible when we, when we create positive conditions for young people to, you know, take their own action, which is, I just love. Thank you so much. But can I just pick up on what you slightly laughingly said about the exam stress? Because I, that is something I'm interested in and that's come up in my other conversations is thinking about how, how pressurized the system is and feels in terms of your future. I mean, you're 15 now, obviously you're thinking about the future in terms of being the first tech billionaire in India or, But there does seem to be, from what I've heard, a real pressurized system around exams and then entry into the next stage of your education.

Yes.

In terms of coaching and tutoring for the entrance test to the big institutes of technology and, and the prestigious universities. How do you feel about all of that?

So I've been following that for a long time now. And I've heard about how difficult it is for a lot of people. So in my work, I've met a few people who've had mild cases of exam stress, who've been feeling stressed about exams. And same for me, I think everybody definitely goes through that. But when it bubbles up into something negative, that's when it's not okay, when it starts interfering with your life and your food or your sleep, things like that, and just makes you feel drained. That's when it's a problem, and that's when it's called exam distress or negative stress. That's something to look out for. And I think, where does the pressure come from? Well, it's, you know, I think India is a developing country. We have a lot of opportunity, we have a lot of ambition, and we're really looking forward to growth and development. And somewhere in the middle of all of that, we have lost track of taking care of our young people because we expect them to score grades and get into these prestigious colleges and earn for their families and build startups and whatnot. But, you know, we have never like stopped for a moment and we have never thought about whether they're okay with that or not. How do they feel about that? And is it pretty fair? To expect so much from, honestly, just a child, because they're just children right now, right? They don't have any idea what they want to do, or they haven't really been on the journey of life yet. So I think it's— and it's wrong on our part to not stop and think about how they might feel. A lot of this also comes from expectations of other people, you know, because, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of inside jokes between Indians about how, you know, there are certain older people in our family, we call them aunties and uncles, and they say, they say things about us and, you know, they judge us or they force us to whatever, do well in exams and all of that. And somewhere, okay, that's something that we all kind of have fun, we, we bond over that. But if you look at it from a deeper lens, it's actually very harmful to have someone put these really like burdening expectations on you. I mean, how do you think a young person would respond to that? Not very well, right? Not very well. Some people can handle stress, some people are not so well equipped with that. And why are they not well equipped? Well, because there's not enough education about, about how to deal with stress. And a lot of that also links back to mental health stigma. We talk about, you know, do well in exams, Okay, fine. What if I'm not doing well in exams and I'm not feeling okay? What about that? They don't talk about that, right? They don't talk about how to prepare for your exam well, how to not get burnt out. They don't touch on those topics. And because there's no education and there's so much pressure and there's so much toxic ambition somewhere that it kind of bubbles up into exam stress and a lot of kids you know, face the same problem, especially in— if you've heard of Kota, this place, there are people who are dying by suicide every day. And it's, it's so hard to read about these instances because they're just kids and they don't— nobody has told them that, you know, it's just a number on a mark sheet. It's just a number. It, it's not a definition of how good you are. Your life's not going to stop there. Nobody's told them that.. And so because of this lack of education and this excessive stigma around talking about how kids might be feeling and their mental health, exam stress is such a big problem in India. That's where it comes from.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think was that, it's what they made the Netflix drama about, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Kota Factory, I believe.

That's right. Yeah. So I think, I mean, clearly it's, it's coming into the popular cultural consciousness somehow that this is definitely, it's a dynamic that happens in India, but Also, as you were talking, that made me wonder, is there a role for an increased awareness of the effects of stress and exam stress and pressurized system on the people who are designing the systems? Because it's all very well to support the young people and the students, you know, how to prepare better for exams, how to self-manage and how to, you know, but actually they're still living in a very pressurized system. And perhaps it's very difficult to feel well in a system that is biased towards that deep kind of, as you say, potentially toxic ambition. That's a really powerful phrase. What, what are your reflections there about how could perhaps even your, you know, the work you are doing, your app, et cetera, you know, is there a place there for educating the educators, you know, the people who are creating the schools or writing the policies in India, you know, to bring up this topic of mental health and exam stress and exam distress, as you said?

I feel it's a systemic issue and it starts with the system itself. And I actually had a lovely meeting with the head of policymaking, the body that makes policies in India, NITI Aayog, it's called. So I met with them last week and even they're looking at doing something about mental health. About student mental health, but I think the issue, you know, comes from where do we start? And I think there it's important to talk to the adolescents themselves. And that's what I'm trying to do with my platform because all of the content, everything is essentially been done by adolescents from around the world. So I have a team of 9, 10 of these kids coming from Nigeria, from Pakistan, from USA, UK, Denmark. Like a bunch of places and we're all collaborating on making this content and making it in a way that another adolescent would watch it and feel like that's accurate. That's exactly what I'm going through and that's going to help me. So I think if we're talking about solving for a specific target group, we need to take that target group's opinion into account. And, you know, that's what I'm trying to do with my platform.

100%. Oh, that's amazing. I mean, I'm, I'm so happy to hear that you are having those kinds of conversations with the people who are making the policies, cuz I mean, it sounds like there is an increasing awareness coming around those issues. And as you say, if you can bring adolescents' stories and their experiences, lived experiences to that table, that's an amazingly powerful thing to be doing. So thank you so much.

Hello, Tim. I'm very, very happy to be here today. And myself, Suraj Shah, and I'm from Mumbai, and I am a psychologist, you know, by profession. Also, I'm an educator, and in terms of education, I teach TOEFL as well as psychology. These are my two core areas that I am into, especially I'm associated with a diploma program, IBDP in past 6 years so far. And my personally, my schooling has been into the local Indian state board. And it was a great shift for me when I started, you know, my career in IB as a teacher, as an educator. It was a great shift, and I'm happy where I am right now.

Brilliant. Thank you. Well, it's a great pleasure to meet you. And thank you for taking the time to talk. I really, really appreciate it. Just, just for clarification, if people aren't aware, TOK means Theory of Knowledge. And that's, that's an interesting one cuz we, that's kind of where we're gonna stray in our conversation, I hope, into some of that area around Indian knowledge systems. So no, it's really, I'm really happy to be able to talk to you. I mean, the first question, just to kind of set the scene, I would love to ask what's your experience of the education system, the way you see it, the kind of the colonial legacy of, of education in India, perhaps touching on the pre-colonial as well. And, and I'd love to then dig into some of those aspects. And the way that they inform how the education happens?

So I think, you know, the question is very much relevant that where does, you know, contemporary education come from? So if we see the formal education system was introduced by the British, and that's where the roots lie in terms of like pre-colonial times, education's current structure did not exist. Okay, so it was the current structure of education in terms of standardized assessments and mark sheets all comes from, you know, the post-colonial time. So if we were to really understand that Indian education system in terms of the local curriculums are looked down upon, and not only looked down upon in terms of its perception, but I myself being a product of Indian education, it was heavily based on rote learning, it was heavily based on content, very, very content heavy. So in terms of, you know, if you see a theoretical base would be very strong and very rigorous in terms of mathematics, sciences. So the content was being tested on papers, and it would be essentially, you know, rote learning and answering, though it did shift with time, became more application-oriented, but yet predominantly it remains. And Indian education currently aims at getting through the entrance tests, you know, for to getting into Indian Institute of Technology, or post-Grade 12, people are looking at getting into some premier institutes, and there are lakhs of students who are appearing for medical entrances. So we are an overpopulated country which looks at, you know, education as a means to get into premier institutes, which becomes a means to get a good, well-paying job.

Sure.

Okay, so this is like the kind of the end product. Now, if I were to look at where it started. I feel before colonial, you know, colonialism, basically, the idea of education was not to become a clerk or an administrative servant of the British. So the whole idea of structuring education with formal assessments, larger idea is because the British wanted, you know, people to become administrative servants, and it brought an idea of what a Western elite educated person would be, that concept of a person who would speak English or would be attending a school with, you know, certain kind of knowledge, that was an idea which was set. It did not exist before that. And I feel, personally speaking, English as a language is so much internalized as a language of, you know, being educated or being, you know, elite, that it hamper my education, my childhood days, because English was not the first language that was spoken in my house. There was a huge conflict in my mind to frame sentences because my Indian, my native language, I would think in my native language, whereas my school is teaching me a different language. And I couldn't really cope with that. So I used to just memorize, mug up. And that was my way of, you know, getting educated. And on the top of that, the assessments were very standardized. So I couldn't cope with the standardized assessments myself. And my self-esteem kind of started dropping, thinking that, oh, yeah, you know, I'm not good enough, probably, with the collectivistic culture playing in the role that you're being compared with others.

Sure.

Okay, it's not an autonomous or an individualistic culture where you can be yourself. Also with the financial needs being also the economic factor of, you know, so after the British, India was completely British took away a lot of resources. So it is technically a third world country struggling to meet its basic needs. Okay. So if we see all these factors coming in, we were left with an education system which was fundamentally, which is alien to this culture. Yeah. And an education system which becomes a means to secure jobs. And critical thinking became the last priority of a third world country. A third world country does not have time to critically think about things, but it has to just pass exams to secure the worth of the family or the honor of the family, and also look at high-paying jobs. So I think these are the variables which all kind of interact and shape education system for what it is. And it boils down to what kind of teachers do we have. So who, who wants to become a teacher? So teaching is not a well-paying job in comparison with other professions. And I think it's a global phenomenon.

I think so.

In India, it's even like nobody would ever dream, ever child would dream that I want to be a teacher. Very few would, because it's again, not going to help you even meet your basic needs.

Sure.

So many variables.

It all feeds in. Absolutely. No, I know. I so appreciate you sharing. Thank you. Especially the personal experience. But I kind of am hearing you talk about this kind of alien set of norms and institutions that were kind of, that defined the script for how you could be successful and how you needed to be competitive and in your personal reflection about how that made you feel in relation to your mother tongue, et cetera. I mean, it's, yeah, thank you. It's really interesting. And, but it also strikes me that the mother tongues and the kind of, let's say, indigenous ways of knowing, et cetera, don't go away, right? They're still there. They're just not necessarily being as publicly socially valued as this highly stratified kind of competitive system based on English and academic rote learning, as you've been saying.

Correct.

So what I feel is it's not only just not paid attention to, but also the British left its colonies with a normative power which is being internalized, a Eurocentric normative power of what counts as science. What counts as arts.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Okay, so what happens is that is so much internalized, okay, to the extent that there is an internalized disregard for what is indigenous, you know. So we would think it as, oh, this is barbaric. And this still kind of— that is, in one of the, you know, theory of knowledge, you know, WhatsApp groups, I still remember people saying that no, Ayurveda cannot be put in natural sciences. It's an indigenous knowledge system. But modern Ayurveda, it's empirical-based, and there is research. Still, within India, we are debating on whether it can be counted as national sciences or no.

Yeah.

And it's still framed as alternative medicine. In India, still, they believe that we call Ayurveda as alternative medicine, not the conventional medicine. So there is a disregard, you know, which needs to be broken and shaken, you know, deconstructed.

Sure. Absolutely. No, it's just, I mean, it's deep, deep topic, isn't it? With so many strands, but the thing that particularly caught my interest while I was in India was this seemingly renewal or resurgence of interest in the idea of Indian knowledge systems. And that's really why I wanted to talk to you just in terms of that indigenous way of knowing and, you know, thousands of years worth of wisdom and tradition and practice linked in with religion, all of these other things. And that it was coming more to the fore again, that even the government, for example, in the National Education Policy in 2020, were talking about Indian knowledge systems. So I would love, I mean, firstly, love to just ask, what does that mean in terms of, if you were to explain that to people outside of India, what does Indian knowledge systems mean?

So of course the current whole wave of, you know, research in let's kind of go back to our own traditions comes from the current political party for sure, and its inclination towards reclaiming the Indic culture, okay, which has also been criticized by many, the opposition party, or that is an anti-secular movement. But to be very honest and frank, some aspects could be, you know, looked down upon that, oh, this is a disregard to other religions existing in India, the current political India, but also to understand that this land had its Indic culture also. So what I understand from this is Indian knowledge systems fundamentally come from— we can call it as Darshan. The word Darshan means worldviews, okay? These were the philosophical worldviews which were grounded in metaphysics, fundamentally in metaphysics. The core was the metaphysics. From which, you know, all the other, even the natural sciences or other sciences kind of came out. So if we were to look at, you know, Indian knowledge systems, fundamentally Vedic or the Vedic system, Jaina system and Buddhist systems, these are three fundamental systems. And fourth is the Charvaka. These four systems we could say as formal systems of knowledge existed in India as our four worldviews. They had their metaphysical assumptions on which they kind of further sprouted into other knowledges, and they kept debating. It was an open culture, continuous debating, and they were inquirers. All the four knowledge systems were continuously into inquiry, you know, right from atheist schools to polytheistic schools to monotheistic schools to agnostics to, you know, complete materialistic schools. So all schools coexisted in the land and engaged in healthy debate. So these are the kind of worldviews which existed, and the mathematics or sciences were not divorced from these worldviews. So, you know, for example, Ayurveda is a part of a Veda. So the Vedas not only talk about spirituality, but they also talk about healing the body. So that's how the Indian knowledge systems were kind of based.

Yeah, that's interesting. And I suppose I'm hearing quite a lot of resonance with the IB philosophies in terms of inquiry, right? And when I was in India, we visited the temple in New Delhi. It was Akshardham. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. And that really struck me actually reading the things on the walls there about the role of dialogue and inquiry between people as they're exploring and trying to understand together.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. No, interesting. And just to kind of try and understand it myself, I'm hearing you talk about different metaphysical backgrounds, assumptions, and out of those ideas come, as you say, kind of different worldviews and different ways of being, and they're somehow held together in dialogue and mutual inquiry, which is, yeah, fascinating. How do you think then that manifests itself into an education policy? Is it, it feels very, it feels quite, quite a leap from that to then how do we, what do we do about that in terms of actually implementing that or, you know, working with those ideas in a formal school context in contemporary India?

Sure.

So I think first I would like to, you know, talk more about what these metaphysical assumptions look like. Okay, and how, though they kept debating, like Buddhists and Jains, and, you know, Vedic scholars kept debating, but there is a common thread which runs across all the schools, okay, uniform. And there are some common metaphysical assumptions that they make. And one of them is that we are caught up in this cycle of death and birth, and we gotta get out of it. So the human life is not an end to itself, but it's a way to transcend This is not a natural state to be in. Okay, so they all believe in the cycle of death or samsara, which we all are caught up in. And the human life is a way to understand, inquire into the nature of suffering, the cause of suffering, and kind of get out of that. So all the kind of schools came with common idea that there are 4 core goals of life. The first being dharma, which dharma means what is our roles and responsibilities. Artha means generating wealth to survive this human life. Karma means seeking well-being and pleasure. And moksha, which is transcending the three. Okay, so that is the four fundamental goals of this human life. So what I feel currently, we, as you know, the human society, are so divorced from the philosophy of life, we do not want to talk about it. Because We would believe that, oh, let's be secular and let's keep religion to its, you know, or spirituality as a personal choice. And let's not talk about it. Education is just knowing the material world. And we will explore, you know, and make this life a big, very successful life. But if we were to have a dialogue over that, what are we here for? Or question that, what is the principle through which we are able to be alive. Okay, so there comes the problem, hard problem of consciousness, which it was not a problem for, you know, all the three schools, because they had assumption, they start with an assumption that there is something beyond the human material life.

Yeah.

Okay. And that assumption was, it had to be experientially realized. So though they assumed it, but they expected each seeker to inquire into that why am I born in the first place? Why is this suffering? Why do I have to get out? And why the illness or sickness or death exist in the first place? So these were the inquiry questions, which we want to kind of take these questions for granted that okay, we are alive, we will not question that what is the principle through which we are alive, we will take our consciousness or sense of aliveness to be granted and build all knowledge on the top of that. But if we can start kind of, you know, having a subject which understands different worldviews, I'm not telling that we want students to only learn the Vedic assumptions, or, you know, but I see these questions as fundamentally part of growing up, you know, they cannot be divorced, completely divorced from the education system, of course, at age-appropriate level. Sure. If IKS had to be integrated into the current, I would say, education system, it can be integrated at 3 levels. First is at ideological level, that we could start questioning about certain things and sense of, you know, awe, or, you know, we can start romanticizing certain things that, oh, there's a vastness of space, and how does that exist? Okay. Second thing, we could start at, again, a conceptual level, deconstructing the normative power of the you know, colonial.

Yeah.

So that dialogue needs to be very consciously brought in, you know, not just at the diploma program level, at the TOK as one of the core, and just to write, write one of the essays. It can't be reduced to that. It has to be dialogue throughout. And why would we not talk about it right from MIT at, you know, that while they're studying history, we could talk about the normative power that is holding its, you know, ground across all the other knowledge systems. So deconstruction of normative power, understanding that we do have indigenous knowledge and how it could also have a grain of truth or a different way through which they have constructed that knowledge. So if these dialogues start, you know, right from, let's say, middle school, and as, you know, students grow older, even dialogues about metaphysics, You know, I think a natural curiosity may come in to further get into these, you know, get back to the roots or kind of ask about, you know, these things.

Absolutely. It's fascinating because it's a lot of the stuff that we just put in the box of philosophy or TOK or psychology, or, you know, as you said, rarely do these discussions happen, or they don't, they're not in the room in the classrooms of 7, 8, 9-year-olds, you know, even though of course they're curious and they're wondering and they have, they have big questions, but it's, it's not something that's often really brought in as a priority. And it just, it makes me really wonder if, you know, if you did a thought experiment that British colonial rule in India had never happened, what would the education system in India look like now without that kind of, as you say, that kind of imposed normative power of No, actually this, this very narrow, superficial, propositional, materialist, reductionist way of understanding the world is the route to success. If we remove that, it'd be so interesting to think what it would, what it would and could have been like. And another thing that struck me while I was in India was how present some of those big questions of meaning and wisdom and spirituality are for the young people. You know, it's somehow it's much more present in the way that they're expressing themselves in their artwork that we saw in the schools and in the way that they talk. Often in Northern European or US cultures in schools, you don't get so much talk about the sacred or beyond this material life, those kinds of topics. And it was very evident in my experience there. It was very, so it's definitely kind of very much there in the culture. Of course, multiple cultures all overlapping in India, but I felt it strongly.

Definitely.

Sure.

Honestly, one of the ways which I feel, for example, I'll give you a simple example of SEL, social emotional learning, which we want to implement across schools as self-management, you know, to promote self-management. But these terms are so clinical, self-management.

Okay, absolutely.

Mindfulness is reduced to a technique. A skill. The modern mindfulness has its roots in the Buddhist practices. Now, what we have done, as you know, people belonging to modern sciences, we've divorced all the philosophy out of mindfulness, retained the technique, created a lot of empirical evidence around neurological benefits and psychological benefits, and retained the technique. And we want to promote it in all the schools for self-regulation. It's a good thing. But why not also romanticize the principle underlying the mindfulness, they come back to the present moment, which is eternal and timeless. So these are non-secular ideas, you know, even without getting into a particular culture, or particular, you know, philosophy, something still can be romanticized, you know, and brought into a more personal level. So if we were to bring the concepts of, for example, when I teach SEL, and we have a concept of demandingness, Okay, we— it's again a concept of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, which we teach to students, that you cannot demand things always, you know, demandingness can cause suffering. I do romanticize a bit that, you know, where is this demandingness coming from? Again, what modern psychotherapies did, they divorced themselves of the philosophy that they come from.

Sure.

And this is just retain the techniques. But we can go a bit middle ground and start discussing you know, mindfulness in a more philosophical and ideological and at a level of practice, rather than just making it into a skill and a checkbox that, okay, as a school, we are, you know, providing evidence for ATL self-management. So the current way of education has become so much like, like a corporate, okay, where we have to give evidence for everything. The teachers are continuously worried about planning unit plans, evidence, and showcasing that what we have done in 5 years and audits. And when we are operating so much at cerebral level and so much at the level of doing, doing, doing, yeah, are we having the time to rest? And also be, you know, so from human doing, if we start shifting to more of being, that opens the doors of other ways of knowing, and can help us to become sensitive towards other realms of truth which exist beyond reason and senses. Okay, so I believe that if we shift, like the philosophical shift of education starts happening, from being so much engrossed into the hustle of doing, you know, again, they have made mindfulness into a skill. The word skill itself implies doing. So, and it's a very clinical term to reduce everything to skills. Okay, but we can start me You know, non-doing.

Absolutely. I mean, there's so much, again, there's so much there because I know you've written about the hustle culture and that's, I mean, I'd really recommend people reading what you've written there and also about what teachers need in terms of, maybe we'll come back to that, but I just think, yeah, absolutely. That idea of somehow we're identifying the deficiencies of this reductionist, modern, formal schooling system, and then we're trying to plug the gaps with interventions, right? Like you say. Mindfulness or SEL, but these, the plugs that we're using are so cold and decontextualized from the richness of just being and the history and the philosophy and the spirituality and all those things that it, it leaves people, even though you feel like you're doing something well-meaning and important, it leaves people a little bit cold, but it also, it also just, it doesn't work in a way, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't really resonate with people. Yeah. And actually just from a personal reflection of when I was working in Paris, we did some mindfulness work with the students. And it was really interesting to, particularly in a French context where religion is so far apart from schooling and education, and the idea of bringing spiritual or religious ideas into a school context is very, very difficult. It was interesting how the parents responded to the idea of mindfulness because it had these more religious or spiritual connotations, perhaps from, you know, for example, I know you write about the yogic philosophy as well, and you know, that becoming more and more people more aware of that in more Western or, you know, Northern European context. It was really interesting to see the, the parents' responses, not positive, of course. And so you end up then, you almost end up turning it into something even more instrumental, like attention training, you know, as you say, or self-regulation, it becomes a cure for a problem that we have, right? Rather than a practice of being, as you said, right? Of, of attention to the present moment and all those things. No, it's fascinating. Perhaps I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the yogic philosophy that you write about, because I think there's, I don't know whether this fits, but there's also the link to the, the kind of broader indigenous knowledge systems that you've also written about. And I think obviously India is, is the context we're talking about, but there are also other indigenous knowledge systems that have similarly been kind of pushed out and excluded as a result of imperialism and colonialism around the world. So, I don't know whether there's, there are links there to make, but perhaps, yeah, if you could start with the yogic philosophy, that'd be interesting.

The word yoga comes from the term union, okay, union with the source. And yogic technology or yogic systems were more about a very systematic, you know, designed technology to help people kind of unite with the source. And there are different types of, you know, yogic systems, like more affective based, like Bhakti, which is more emotion-driven, then cognitive, which is more Jnana Yoga, which is more about exercising your cognition. Again, the goal is the union with the source, which again boils down that it will cut your ignorance, the existential ignorance, which will free you from the circle of life and death. So the ultimate— again, everything revolves around the fundamental goal of life is to transcend this cycle. Okay, so now But when we look at yoga, there are different systems in yoga. One of the systems is which uses this body itself, which is known as Hatha yoga, which uses the body and tries to kind of regulate the breath, and which is most popularized by asanas, like making different poses. But the whole idea is again to unite with the source which exists experientially in the here and now. So all the indigenous knowledge systems were believed in experiential realization. They did not just believe in intellectual inquiry, but the inquiry had to be corroborated with an experiential understanding. So the yogic philosophy believes that it's just not the physical body, but there are other, you know, bodies to you, like chi, the concept of chi or prana, which exists across the entire, you know, Japan, China, across Asia, the concept of chi chi. Now, the concept of chi is not something which can be empirically proven, because it has to be experienced, okay? It cannot be seen or touched, or it cannot be reasoned out, but it has to be felt. So the yogic systems believe that once you align yourself to the source through yoga, or through the techniques of yoga, you start, you know, you are kind of realizing experientially the source. And once you're connected with the source, then international mindedness, or feeling connected with everyone, or, you know, that form of caring that we— that's one of the values we have brought into modern education, that we want people to be global citizens, be caring towards each other. But how is that possible when we are not experientially connected with each other, and to that principle, which runs, you know, as a common thread amongst all of us? So, you know, caring for everyone sounds as a good theoretical concept, but it can be experienced and brought into action from within to outside. So once you are in touch with that principle within you, then you can also recognize that, oh, that principle is also in someone else, that life force energy runs across everyone. So empathy is a natural product of that. Caring for others is a natural product of that. And that's what the yogic systems are rooted in.

Can I ask a question? Just, this is my ignorance, but how does, how does that intersect with the 4 aspects you were talking about earlier from the metaphysical worldview? Like, what's the connection there?

The connection is because— and yoga, see, the 4 aspects means the Arma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha. So yoga not only has spiritual benefits, or it's going to help you to achieve Moksha, that is transcend the whole duality, but it will also help you to be fitter. It will also be— it has benefits across all the levels of existence. Right from physical level of existence to social, you know, it has a social implication, you know, it will bring people— because you experience that, oh, the life force that I'm feeling is the same as yours. And, you know, we are essentially all breathing the same life force. It has social implications, also has spiritual implications. So it can help you achieve all the four goals.

So it's almost a set of practices to contribute to the four goals. Interesting.

Yeah.

Okay.

Karma, especially to the karma, the pleasure. Once you realize that through yogic techniques, you can manufacture peace within, you can make yourself generate the peace within, your materialism, your karma will also be regulated. Okay, which essentially, that's what we are doing. It's through mindfulness. When we are teaching our, you know, clients, the stress tolerance skills, okay, we are actually using mindfulness, but through mindfulness, we are unconsciously coming in contact with that, yeah, which exists in the moment, but we don't talk about it.

Of course. But it's interesting, isn't it? How the different lenses, because if you're looking through the reductionist scientific lens, you don't acknowledge that any of that metaphysics exists because as you said, it can't be empirically proven through the scientific method. But if you're looking through these other lenses and, and as you said, it's not that we're trying to necessarily say that one is objectively true and the other is false and there's a war between them and one day one will win and the other will lose. There is this, this holding intention of, of the, that, that in kind of in, as you said, in the spirit of inquiry or dialogue. And I think that's fascinating. But I also wanted to ask how much of those kind of yogic ideas, those practices are used in schools in India. Is that not a, not a common thing?

Not at all. I feel on the World Yoga Day, probably they would do one day of few positions, but it's non-practice of yoga in schools. First of all, the idea of yoga, if you ask any average Indian boy or a girl, they would say it's positions. So we ourselves are divorced from the very essence and the idea of yoga to this extent that the West had to take the idea of mindfulness, empirically prove it now and we have to take courses in mindfulness. But again, if the Western scientists couldn't, wouldn't have taken mindfulness, you know, to explore, I think we wouldn't be even aware of mindfulness existing as our own, in our own heritage. So if you would ask the idea of the essence of yoga itself is something which is not broadly known. And secondly, schools do it as one of the checkboxes again.

Sure.

Okay.

You know, but I would believe the practice of yoga would start with an ideological shift, with a conceptual shift, and of course, then understanding that we need to experience something beyond, you know, the sensory experiences, that that has to be brought in.

Yeah. But can I also ask, because I'm imagining Indian educators across India who potentially in their personal and spiritual lives believe these things, is it that there is a general consensus that it's the space of formal education is just not the right space to bring those ideas in? Because it's not, I mean, in other contexts you might have a challenge where the educators don't actually believe in what they're talking about and teaching about. I wonder in the Indian context, if there is general agreement that, you know, that there is value in this, is it that it's just not a thing to bring into school, but it's okay for the home or with your family or or, you know, on certain days. I don't know, what's— what would be your reflections there?

So again, it's my personal perspective, but what I feel is it's done in Indian school as a checkbox. Okay, it's a World Yoga Day, let's do it. But further from not believing, there is a disregard. Okay, there's an internalized disregard towards the whole indigenous, you know, that, oh, okay, all this is something which my grandmother did, but it's not. Something which is scientific. Okay, so it's still the colonial normative, you know, power exists, and people still have a kind of disregard towards what the indigenous knowledge systems are, number one. And number two, Indian educators themselves, you would say they could have religious beliefs. Okay, everybody would have some personal beliefs. But again, the religion, for the contemporary practice of religion, is very divorced from the philosophy of religion.

Sure.

So again, if you see even the most so-called religious leaders, they propagate religion at a very, on a very ritualistic side or some popular beliefs, but they do not go under the root of the, the larger understanding and philosophy. So again, that is going missing as a country. It's not being understood or practiced well.

Yeah. And, and so in relation to perhaps taking some of these ideas of the Indian knowledge systems, and I know you've written about what teachers need in order to be able to kind of support themselves in being more present and, you know, all the busyness and administration and hustle. And as you said earlier, the undervaluing in terms of economic undervaluing, social undervaluing. Where do you think there might be kind of places where these ideas or practices might come into the current system as a benefit to obviously educators and to the young people themselves?

I think we could start small. You know, at least a dialogue can start on deconstructing what colonialism has done to us, okay, in terms of the soft power existing, whether in terms of the normative power. So the dialogue can slowly help us shift. Secondly, what we can do is we can create spaces in the schools, uh, in terms of the, in the most practical way. If we could start doing mindfulness in the most scientific way, let's say. But I think if we first of all create a pause, and, you know, start experiencing the present moment, then there is some scope to have a cognitive shift towards experiences, to, you know, from thinking and doing towards beingness or experiencing the being. I think that shift itself will make us come from the head to the heart, and it might open some doors to understanding that, oh, is there some wisdom to this? You know, is there some more to this? I think that could slowly bring a shift, you know. So the shift can happen, as I said, at more conceptual and ideological level, at experiential level, but we could start somewhere. Yeah, you know.

Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I think it's very challenging, isn't it? Obviously because of the normative and soft power of the colonial legacy, but also this kind of soft power, not even that soft power of the market, right, of the market competitiveness of, as you said, at the beginning, you know, parents wanting the best for their children to get the best jobs to get the success defined by the market value and the commodity value rather than by this beingness value.

Where is the time? Yeah, where is the time? And why, you know, so creatures are struggling. If you see from the Maslows hierarchy of needs, we're struggling to just be survive and have some security, then there is really no scope to go on, you know, the higher levels of pyramid in terms of thinking about these fancy concepts or, you know, philosophical ideas. So the economic stability is one of the very, very important factors so that people who genuinely want to teach would become educators rather than, you know, people who choose education as just, you know, secondary or tertiary option. Yeah, nothing seems to be rewarding.

Yeah, no, interesting. No, thank you, Suraj. This is, I mean, for me, it's so fascinating. It's a real inquiry for me. Obviously, I've spent now a few, only still a week in India, was my first time in India. But it was just, I learned a huge amount being there. And it left me with a whole load of questions. So I'm so happy to be able to kind of explore those with you a bit as well. And it's clearly, there are multiple layers to the challenge. So thank you so much for taking the time.

Thank you so much. The questions are amazing. And I think it also made me reflect on certain things. So I also take a lot out of this.

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