Systems Innovation in Africa - A Conversation with Odunayo Aliu

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

That was the first time where I saw the true transformative power of education. It felt like I found a treasure. So how can we help communities to co-create community-based learning centers that they can self-sustain?

Hi everyone, welcome back to the podcast. My name is Tim Logan and the podcast is brought to you in partnership with Notosh. With Africa in general and Nigeria in particular having such huge youth populations, it was fascinating to talk to Odunayu Aliyu about why transformative education is such a critical piece of that picture. Odunayu is the founder and director of the Bramble Network in Nigeria, an organization working to create alternative learning spaces where children from low economic backgrounds in rural communities can have access to quality education. Bramble is creating a network of educators that will change the educational space in Nigeria from the grassroots. Oneyo is also the president of the Love Letters Child Support Initiative, a community-based child rights organization mobilizing educational aid for children in rural communities. She's also previously been recognized as an Ashoka Changemaker and a fellow of the Leap Africa Social Innovators Program. Thank you, Adenayo. Really a great pleasure to meet you. So thank you for joining. I'm really looking forward to having this conversation with you on the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

So I would love to talk to you about what the context, firstly, for people who've never visited Nigeria or understand the education system in Nigeria or in across different African countries. I'd love to take a bit of time if we can just to kind of set the stage for the kinds of challenges that you are working with, with Bramble Network and the amazing work that you do, because I think there are some, clearly some very real challenges that you're working with. So in your approach of kind of using transformative education, and given that Nigeria and Africa in general have this huge youth population, perhaps we could start there with why is it that that kind of transformative education is so needed? In Nigeria.

So a little bit introduction. So Brambu is a nonprofit organization that is working in the area of transforming education for young people that live in rural and marginalized communities. So basically we work with communities to set up alternative learning centers in their communities. We also invest in capacity building for educators, you know, especially in rural and low-cost schools. In the area of the problem, you know, setting the context, like you said, I would share a quick story that would help us to understand, you know, why we're doing what we're doing. So my background is in education. I studied education in my undergraduate, and meanwhile, I had done a teacher certification program, which was for 3 years, then went for a degree program for 4 years. So it was in the final year of my degree program that I came into full consciousness of, you know, the scale of the problem that we have in our education system. Yeah. So at the time I met, um, a little boy, his name is Dada, and Dada at the time was, he wasn't going to school. He was supposed to be enrolled in school, but he wasn't going to school, you know, due to financial reasons. And somehow I, I got connected to him. Due to, you know, he had some interesting stories that, you know, just made me really connect to him on a personal level. So I made efforts to put Dada in school, you know, got support from myself and my friends, you know, enrolled him in school. And after that, we felt we could do the same for some other children. So by the next year, we had adopted 36 children We had also provided educational support for about 500 children. But the interesting thing that happened was, you know, we were happy that, oh, children were going to school, oh, we're making change. But apparently, you know, we were always bringing the children together to interact with them and see what they were learning. It was during one of those interactions that we discovered that even though many of these children were in school, they were not really learning. So we had one of the kids was called Adeola. Adeola was in primary 3 and he could not write his own name. He couldn't write his own name, not to talk of write one single sentence, you know, by himself. At that point, we knew that the problem is two ways. So we have a lot of children that are not in school, they are not enrolled, which currently UNESCO says we have about 20 million children in Nigeria alone. That are not in school.

Wow.

And on the other hand, we have so many children that are in school, but they are not learning so much, you know, which according to— there's a report by World Bank in 2018 that estimated that out of all the children that complete basic school in Nigeria, only about 10% can, you know, write and do basic arithmetic. Yeah. So that's the problem, and it's huge. It's both in rural communities and in the cities, but it's just worse in rural communities.

Yeah, I mean, as you say, the numbers there are absolutely massive. And I did want to ask you about the rural part because I know you run the Rural Education Network as well, and perhaps you could just describe what are the different kinds of challenges for, for example, a teacher and a school, people working in that context, and for the young people in a rural situation versus in Lagos or, you know, in the other big cities around Nigeria?

Thank you for that. I'm always interested in bringing the spotlight on rural education because the challenges are, they are quite unique. And you know, when people think about rural communities, they also feel like, oh, I would like to establish that rural communities are also not homogeneous. You know, it's, it's different cultures, it's different challenges. So you would see that in, in a particular community, the sort of problems you would see is different from the ones you will see in another community. Not to say that there are no commonalities, there are common things. For example, the issue of quality teachers, you know, competent teachers. It's, it's a huge struggle to have people that are competent working in rural communities. It's the case, it's already worse on a national level because the teaching profession is not, is no longer attractive for so many people. Young people, ask young people what career do they want to pursue. Out of 100 people, you can literally count on your fingers how many people will say that, oh, they want to be a teacher. So in rural communities, having access to quality, competent teachers is a huge struggle. Because one, there's the issue of rural to urban migration. You know, as people are getting educated, they are living, looking for, you know, better opportunities and all. Then we also have the problem of infrastructure. Many communities don't have dedicated places for learning, places where you can find schools. It's, you know, dilapidated buildings where there are no the roofs are off and, you know, and different things like that. And also because of the distance and remoteness of rural communities, it's not easy to get people to even come out and volunteer and, you know, complement whatever children are learning in school. So access to resources is, is a very big struggle for rural people.

Yeah. And are these schools in the majority within the rural areas that you're talking about, are they publicly funded schools, state-run schools, or are they private schools where the fee-paying schools—

we have more private schools than public schools, um, in rural communities. So because of the absence of government-funded schools, a lot of people try to create low-cost public schools, which again, the issue of standards You know, it's a huge question. So we have more low-cost private schools than public schools.

Okay. No, interesting. And if I can, I mean, I'd love to obviously talk about what you're doing in relation to all of those challenges, but I'd just love to ask you one other thing about girls and boys, because I wonder how much of the challenge is more significant for girl children than for boys.

That's a very interesting aspect as well, girls' education. So again, in rural communities, because of the strong sense of culture, you know, and different ethnicity, we also struggle with the cultural perception of girls having access to education. During one of our outreaches in communities, we literally I mean, there was a particular case that happened. We went to this village and we're asking them, do you have kids that are supposed to be in school, but maybe because you cannot afford to pay for the education, they are not in school and all of that. So we met one of the community leaders and he pointed a particular house that, oh, go to this place. And, you know, I think there are children there and all of that. So there was a girl outside. By the door. So we met the man of the house and we were asking them, and they said, oh no, all their children are going to school and all of that. So I just, you know, felt to ask them, what about this child here, you know, the girl? And that was the point when he remembered that, oh, she ought to be in school. She wasn't enrolled in school, but nobody saw it as a need, you know, because, yeah, I mean she's a girl. So we have that disparity, you know, in access based on gender. I mean, on many occasions as well, even when children are already enrolled in school, the likelihood of a girl child dropping out is higher than that of boys. We've had cases of parents stopping their girls from going to school because they needed someone to stay with a younger sister. Oh, we need more hands to work, and you know, this girl that can do this and all of that. So that issue is, it's more prominent in rural communities as well.

Yeah.

And also because of the issue of early marriage. So when a girl is educated, one, they feel if they are too educated, then it's going to be a struggle for you to get married, you know. So again The sad thing is these children have been raised to believe so. So we try as much as possible to shift the mindset of the parents and of the kids themselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. So this kind of culturally everybody's internalized like the division of labor, even at a very young age, as you say, the, the girls doing a lot of the care. Yeah. Interesting. So was it meeting Dada and, and doing that work that, that was the point at which you then started saying, I I think there's a role for me here. Like, I think there's something to do here. And the idea of Transformative Learning Centres, is that where that came up for you?

I can say meeting Dada was, you know, the, the last stroke that broke the camel's back. Yeah, because so meeting Dada did two things for me, and one of the key things it did for me was connected me to my own background. So when I was young, when I was about Dada's age, I also lived with my grandmother. Dada was living with his grandmother at the time, but the difference between both of us was I was lucky to go to school. He wasn't going to school at the time. Also, growing up, I lived in— there was a time in my life where I was literally moving from one relative to the other, so I was living in different communities. So by the time I was finishing high school, I changed between 10 schools. And different rural communities. So I sort of saw all of those different experiences growing up. And so when I met Dada, and I— at that time I was thinking the solution was to get everybody to school, just remove the financial burden, get everybody to school, and the problem is solved.

Yeah.

But doing that, then I realized that The children we were supporting, that was not going to give us the sort of future we envisioned for them.

Yeah.

Then I started doing research. You know, like I said, my background is in education. At this point, I'd worked in both private and public schools. I'd taught as a classroom teacher. So I started doing research that how can we truly transform education? What can we do differently? And at some point in this journey, I went to India and India has a lot of different alternative philosophies around education.

Yeah.

I was opportuned to visit some Krishnamurti schools. So I visited some of these schools, some schools in Bangalore, some in Kerala, and that was the first time where I saw the true transformative power of education. In fact, I went again and again. I spent some days, slept in some of these schools, trying to observe the relationship between the educators and the students. And, you know, it's not the top-down approach to education where in our traditional schools here, it's about rote learning. It's about what you can memorize.

Sure.

It's about passing examination, moving on to the next level. But in those schools, the emphasis, it's totally different, is on the child. It's holistic learning. And for me, that was really, really— it felt like I found a treasure. It felt like, oh my God, this is the answer, this is the key, this can change the whole world, you know. For Krishnamurti education model, hands-on learning, experiential learning, and all of that. So I felt, oh, you know, which of the elements of this different model can be adapted in my country, you know. So that was really where the whole idea of transformative education, my idea, came together, and I came back home and started implementing.

That's fascinating. I mean, I had no idea about that connection, and I've got some very good friends who work in the Brockwood Krishnamurti School. So I've not visited there, but I do, I, I know enough about what they're doing there to be really, really interested. And so that's fascinating connection. And, and so I'd love to know what were your, then your experiences of coming back to Nigeria and trying to implement that. I mean, as you said, you've got this concept of transformative learning centers you are developing in different communities. Was that your initial thought when you came back? I mean, how did you know what it was going to look like when you came back to Nigeria, or was it kind of a moment of exploration and experimentation back in the communities in Nigeria?

Okay, so since it's been a combination of both, I knew crystal clear what— I know the final result. I know where we're going. It's crystal clear. It's so crystal clear in my mind. Wake me up 2 AM, I can tell you exactly what I see what I have in my mind, and it's the end result. It's about what the children, the young people, what they are going to be, you know. And for me, it's basically about how can we design a learning space that children can find their intrinsic motivation to learn. So education, really, it's about their intrinsic motivation. It's not somebody forcing it on them. Also, how in a place where they can discover and develop their potential, you know, that they can be anything they want to be.

Yeah.

And there's enough resources to explore, to experiment, you know, and just begin to— it's the emphasis as well should not be on academic subjects alone. It should be who they are as an individual. So at that time, I knew that, okay, this is what I wanted. I want a place where children are looking forward to going to learn. Yeah. Unlike, you know, in our traditional schools, I remember once it's closing, I want to go home, you know. And during holidays, we are happy. We don't look forward to going to school. So coming back, I would say that on the ground implementing Um, it wasn't as easy as, um, I wasn't really thinking it would be easy, but we've had to like change in different ways.

Sure.

Number one, because people here are not very familiar with that kind of education system.

Yeah.

So when you say you want to like bring education to a community, they are thinking of schools like the proper traditional schools. So trying to describe that to the parents— we work with both parents and community leaders. So to be able to carry everybody along and get them involved, we had to change, you know, different things. And I think one of the things that we had to do differently— the picture I had in mind was, you know, having community members as facilitators, you know, let them come and share their knowledge and, you know, and all of that. Initially it was like, no, no, no, no, no, we don't know anything, you know, we cannot get involved. We had to help parents and community leaders see that you have something to share, you know. They felt like, oh, they were not educated enough to facilitate knowledge. So we also had to like start working with people that I know, educators that I know, and, you know, bring people from outside the community to get started and all of that before we were now able to start involving people in the community itself.

Yeah.

Um, we also had, you know, dealing with Ministry of Education as well, meant because there's no framework for alternative education in Nigeria. So that as well, we had to literally had to go to the Ministry of Education to like try to explain, you know, this is what we do. I mean, there's, there's a legal framework guiding schools and all of that, and because we're not— for example, we don't wear school uniform, we don't do, you know, grade-based classes and all of those things. So we literally had to also find a way to like make sure that, you know, we were not working against the law. And currently we are now finalizing what we're doing. We now have like a very good relationship with the Ministry of Education as well.

Amazing. So I, yeah, I'm fascinated by that relationship. It was just as an observation on what you're saying, there was, it's so interesting how many layers of the society, and this is, this happens all over the world, everybody's internalized what this idea of what school is, right? The education is school, and it was done by certain types of professional teachers with certain training, and it follows certain laws. And what it sounds like you're trying to do is challenge everybody's preconceptions that that's the only way that education can be done, which is fascinating. And but, but clearly hard work, I can imagine.

It is hard work, it is difficult, but it's been also very rewarding. We've been seeing a lot of results as well. One of the goal is to have people become lifelong learners, and to become lifelong learners, then you have to find a way to help the young people to become self-learners. They can take agency, they can lead their own learning. That as well was a struggle for us because the young people on the other end as well, they are used to people leading them, telling them what to do every minute of the day. Yeah, they are used to having, you know, a class structure where you cannot talk back at your teacher. You know, they're used to, if I, until I tell you to raise your hand, you know, you can't talk unless I ask you to talk. So when we brought the old system of, you know, flat hierarchy where you can literally have a debate with anybody, you can, you know, speak your mind. You can say, oh, this is what I think, instead of you throwing questions at us, the adults. We are asking you for solutions. We are co-creating this whole thing. So that was a little bit strange, you know, trying to build that relationship.

Yeah.

And because it's— we live in a culture where young people cannot look at adults in the eye. It is termed as being disrespectful. Yeah, you know, so imagine coming out of that and you are in a place where they are saying that, oh, we are doing this together, we are all learning together, you know. So some of the results we've been seeing, which started even really early— I remember that after the first 3 months, we started our first learning center in Narikonke Village. We opened that in September 2019, and by December we were doing like a community program where, you know, everybody come, let's celebrate the end of the year and all of that. And one of the parents was sharing with us that there's this particular little boy, Promise, that for so many years Promise was enrolled in a school like in a very, very far location. Outside of the community. So she said that all his life, you know, what Promise does is he would leave for school in the morning, but once the parents go to farm, he comes back home, you know, and he does that throughout the whole term. So the mother was saying that the maximum period that he goes to school is like 2 weeks in the whole term. Yeah. But she noticed that since he started coming to the Learning Center, that he never missed a day.

Amazing.

That even on the day that he was sick, he wasn't feeling so good, the mother told him to wait behind at home. He said no, he has to go. And for us, that's like, you know, when you come, there's joy, there's The children looking, they are always building something, creating something, looking forward to learning. Learning is now intrinsic, it's their own, they own the process. And that transformation is a huge deal, you know, beyond— yes, we also have them doing well in their academic subjects and all of that, but for me as a person, those internal changes in mindset, processes. It's a whole lot because it takes a lot to change the way we do things, the way we think.

Huge, huge, you know. Yeah.

Also, another thing I would also like to mention is we also have a lot of character development, character changes. So again, I mean, the poverty breeds bad character.

Sure.

So because of that, I mean, there's a lot of young people doing different social vices, you know, the way The values that the society celebrates now is, it's just something else. So we're beginning to lose that, the value that I think we grew up on. So for some of the young people as well, even before they joined the learning center, we hear parents saying that, oh, this one is a fighter, or this one is very troublesome in the community, you know, different things like that. But we also begin to see that maximum 2 months, 3 months, by the time they begin to interact within the learning space with the adults, with people, with one another, you'll see people becoming kind. You see them showing huge empathy. You see them, you know, literally watching after one another. And for me, that's such a big deal as well because If at a young age we are able to inculcate such values like kindness, empathy, integrity, you know, problem solving, critical thinking, we are able to take that on at a young age, then we would have a better society.

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's so amazing. I've got so many questions. Just on a practical level, when people like Promise are coming to the learning center, So obviously you told his story, but then as many others, do they tend to be children who are not going to school and so you're picking them up because they're out of school young people, or are the parents deciding that the school is not serving them so they choose to bring them to you and to the center?

We have a mix of both.

Okay.

We have people that have never been enrolled in school coming fresh, and we also have people that, you know, because again, Arikwaki Village where the learning center is We have also a nomadic ethnic group. It's a farming community, so we have people moving around a lot.

Sure.

So we have some people that already have schooling experience, but they decide to come and join the learning center. In fact, you know, by the second year, we had to literally turn away some people.

Oh wow.

Because it was a huge crowd and we did not have enough resources to be able to contain everybody. So we have young people that have never been to school. We have some that have been to school. Um, matter of fact, we have some children from— who are not Nigerians. We have Togolese, we have people from Benin Republic as well.

Fascinating. And another question I had when you were talking, because it, it was interesting that you were talking about quite a lot of the cultural dynamics that you're playing with and kind of interacting with. For example, the cultural norms around how young people interact with adults, and then cultural norms about the expectation of what education is. But I wonder, I can imagine you've had to do a lot of that kind of cultural work in conversation with a lot of the community elders and different people in the community and with the parents as well, cuz you are kind of almost seeding a new kind of culture around education. So how does that cultural piece kind of resonate with you? How do you do that work?

So one of the things we started doing was having sessions, workshops with the parents and community as well. This is like something we do very often, and it's like a dialogue helping parents to, you know, we bring like topics that we talk about. We also just allow them to explore, you know, for example, we wanted to make sure that they also have the same vision of education. As we have, and in fact, you know, co-create the vision together. So we discovered that for parents, one of their biggest fear was in the area of economic, you know, the children are like pension plans.

Absolutely. Yeah, sure.

So when they are old, you know, would they be able to take care of them? You know, what's in it for them, why should they invest in education. And on the other hand as well, there's a huge level of unemployment. So we, I mean, they tell us that, oh, they see Soso person that went to school but does not have a job, you know, is back in the community to, you know, also do farming job for them and all of that. So using that as an example, make them to see that, okay, the essence of education first is not to get a job, it's the transformation. And that way we are able to also introduce them to this sort of learning system that, you know, not— it's not just focused on academics and getting a certificate, you know. For example, we do skills, you know, project-based learning. So your kids are studying a particular concept and they are also creating items, creating solutions along that concept. So we had to do a lot of painting things for them to help them see that this is a better approach to learning. There's a clear path to seeing results here. Your children are being transformed, and they can see because they are there. I mean, parents will bring parents to also facilitate learning, and they know that there's huge unemployment. So making them know that You know, product-based learning, transformative education, first transform their children, the young people, to become problem solvers. And when you solve problem and you offer value to people, you make money.

Yeah, interesting. So actually, in the end, it will benefit them economically as well as in other kind of transformative ways.

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely. And what is it, the— your idea with the Bram Box? So obviously the Bramble Network is the name for your, your network of learning centers, but then you also have this thing called the Brambox. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Brambox is an hardware that we created also as a response to the problems we see in rural communities. So Brambox basically provide offline access to online education content. It is a way to distribute content. And this is what we had to do during COVID You know, when COVID came and, you know, the huge divide, especially for young people in remote areas, there was a whole lot of campaign on getting people to move online. But for the kind of communities where we work, there is no internet facility or very limited.

Sure.

And even when it is available, it is very expensive. So this device is an hardware that, you know, with preloaded content and with Wi-Fi can distribute content across a wide range of area.

Okay. Yeah. Interesting. So it, so it provides the remote content that you would be doing in the learning center in person.

Yes.

Or some, some of it anyway. Yeah. Fascinating. And can I ask you about your own experience? Because you mentioned you were part of your journey was going to India. But I'm also interested in that idea of the way that education can support people to kind of do this work of social change. And you, I think in your time in India, you were with the Kantari International Institute for Social Change. Is that right?

Yes. Absolutely.

And I just wondered if you could talk briefly about what, just for you and your own personal journey and education, how did that experience give you some of the tools or some of the confidence, or just how did it support your journey in terms of then carrying on with this amazing work that you are doing now?

Yes, um, Kantari is in Kerala, India, and it's an institute dedicated to training social change leaders. It's nested in a very beautiful environment where you can focus on the problem you're trying to solve and the solution you are posing. CanThary is a place where you can really sit with your solution and chisel it out, you know, whatever idea you think you have. It's a place where you can prove it, you know, with the support of loving mentors that are also passionate about creating social change. So CanThary was a huge part of my journey, or it's is a huge part of my journey in social change because it's not only provided the knowledge, it also was a place where I was able to develop practical skills, you know, skills on community mobilizing, for example, which was very important by the time I got back home. You know, how do we mobilize resources within communities to solve community problems and all the skills around grant writing, for example.

Sure.

Um, how to pitch, very practical things like that. And we have changemakers from different countries coming every year to work on their solution and go back home to cause a huge change in their community.

Amazing. No, it sounds like it's still something that stays with you, or is it the network as well that's, that stayed with you? Have you kind of created a supportive network?

Exactly, the community. I mean, every year they are like cohorts of between 19 to 25 people, so that's a huge resources, you know, people coming from different background. During my time, I was— I did a lot of research with members of— from my cohort, looking at the education system in countries like Kenya, for example, India itself, you know. I had a friend from Thailand, I had someone from Zimbabwe, so coming with all of the different experiences, bringing it together and seeing, you know, what's the way forward.

Amazing.

So that's community. And also the fact that you have access to people that have gone ahead of you who are always very ready to support you in different ways. And some of them even having— maybe they're working in a similar context, you know, similar solution as well. That was really huge. And even now It's a huge family, if I may use that word. It's a huge community of people that— I mean, anywhere, every time I travel to a new country or a new community, I'm always looking forward. Oh, is there Kantari here? Hello! You know, visit them, even open their homes to you and all of that. And even connecting us to resources as well.

Ah, fantastic. I mean, yeah, that sounds so important. I'm sure there were, there are times when it's incredibly challenging and you need to reach out to someone or, you know, as you said, a lot of learning between you because they've had similar challenges or yeah, no, that's amazing. And if we could perhaps finish with where would you like Bramble to go next? I mean, what are the things that are particularly alive for you and right now in terms of what you would like to see happening? Is it just expansion, more, more of the learning centers? In more rural communities, or, you know, what is it that you are particularly kind of excited about working on right now?

One of the big goal, if I say, one of the next thing that I am looking forward to seeing is to be able to begin to include some of this conversation on the national level. Recently, the Ministry of Education, they are taking a move to review the curriculum our national education curriculum. Yeah, which is a step in the right direction. There's so many things in that curriculum that needs to be removed, to be added. And I'm also hoping that one of the things that will be done is even how education is being facilitated, you know, invest in a lot of training, capacity building for educators across the various communities that we have. So not just urban centers, invest in rural education because there's a dire need in that particular sector. So for Bramble Network, um, I see that we will be able to contribute to, you know, such conversations, influence policy on that level, share experiences of what we see in, in the communities where we work, and You know, even for some of that, for example, your state where we, we started working from, we've been able to do a lot of advocacy and policy recommendation with the state government. And I remember one of those visits when I was telling them about Irikonki Village and Oretsu. Oretsu is like one of the villages where we, in our communities as well, I was telling them about the state of one of the only public primary school in that community, and they did not really know that that is happening, you know, so close to them. So being able to share some of these experiences, and, you know, that went a long way. They were able to like take some actions. So I see Bramble contributing to policies so that more young people can have access to quality education, um, in terms of our own work again, also hoping that we would be able to influence communities, you know. So that's one of the questions on how can we help communities to co-create community-based learning centers that they can self-sustain. Yeah, we currently have communities reaching out to say, oh, we want to create a learning space in our community, how can we do that? So that's going to be one of the next things we're doing. As many as possible work with communities to set up their own local self-sustaining learning centers.

Amazing. I mean, one of the challenges of really good deep work is the fact that it's difficult to scale quickly because of how much relational work that you're doing. It sounds like you've been— as you meet with those parents and have those meetings, and so it, it sounds really important that you're developing those, continuing to develop those relationships as you expand out into new communities. So thank you, Adnao, and thank you for sharing the stories.

Thank you so much.

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