Teaching as Collective Leadership - A Conversation with Wendy Kopp

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

So that kind of led us to work within the system as it is, but quickly you start realizing this doesn't work. Like catching kids up in a failing system does not get us where we need to be. Since then, we've rethought pretty much everything we do towards a different purpose around saying like, what will it take to develop students who can shape a better future?

Hi, welcome everybody to the Future Learning Design Podcast with me, Tim Logan. And this week's episode features someone who has made a phenomenal contribution to teaching and to improving education across the world. Wendy Kopp is the CEO and co-founder of Teach For All, a global network of independent organizations working to develop collective leadership to ensure all children have the opportunity to fulfill their potential. Prior to launching Teach For All in 2007, Wendy founded and led Teach For America, which has proven to be an unparalleled source of long-term leadership for expanding opportunity for children in the United States since 1989. Based on the success of Teach For America, Wendy led the development of Teach For All to be responsive to the initiative of social entrepreneurs around the world who were determined to adapt this approach in their own countries. Wendy is the author of A Chance to Make History: What Works and What Doesn't in Providing an Excellent Education for All in 2011. 'One Day All Children: The Unlikely Triumph of Teach for America and What I Learned Along the Way,' which she wrote in 2000. Wendy holds honorary doctorate degrees from 15 universities and is the recipient of numerous awards, including most recently the Wise Prize for Education, and prior to that, the Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship and the Schwab Foundation's Outstanding Social Entrepreneur Award in 2003. You can find links to articles written by Wendy in the show notes, in particular one published in the Diplomatic Courier called 'To Remake the World: Let's Rethink Education,' which forms the basis of some of our conversation.

Hi there. Hey, Wendy. How are you?

I'm good. How are you?

Good.

Yeah.

Good stuff. All right.

Thank you.

Well, I'm super excited to talk to you, as I said, because obviously I was aware of your work, but in the preparation for this conversation, it's really astounding. I think what you've achieved in the last couple of decades, and it was, it was so nice to see your achievements recognized recently by WISE with the Laureate Award. So I don't want to embarrass you before we get going, but I mean, just for example, I hadn't realized that the whole inception of Teach for America was your, essentially your senior year in university, right? I think this This is an inspiration to 18-year-olds everywhere. So obviously most people will be aware of Teach For America and Teach For All, but if they're not, perhaps we, you could just kind of weave that into your first answer. But I'd love just thinking back since 1989 when you started this and you've done, I mean, you've had 4 children in the process and built 2 incredible organizations and it's hard to summarize that, but what, where are the key things that you think you're particularly proud of or you, or you, you've learned in that process and, and the difference between running a national level organization building these amazing teachers and outcomes for kids across America to then a massive global organization trying to pull together a huge number of national teams into one big family. So there's a lot to start with, but—

No, there's a lot. I mean, I think from the start, this idea was so far beyond me. And at this point, you know, that is just abundantly clear. I mean, as you know, what brings all of us together across the Teach For All network and what motivated me at the very outset of this Journey is on the one hand, a commitment to addressing the fact that the circumstances of kids' birth predict their outcomes. And, and on the other hand, just a recognition that that is a big systemic complex challenge that requires collective leadership, you know, meaning it requires people exerting leadership at every level of the education system and policy and around the whole ecosystem around kids. And so we built a network of locally led independent organizations that are all about cultivating collective leadership through a shared approach of enlisting promising leaders and committing at least 2 years to teach in resource-constrained environments and investing in those leaders, knowing that those 2 years will be really important for the kids they reach, but also that they are foundational for a lifetime of leadership. And I think the closer you get to this work, the more you realize it's it's not only about those teachers and leaders, but it's about their students and the parents and the teachers in the schools and many others in their communities whose leadership these folks can help support and enable and collaborate with. So I think what I feel best about over time, I mean, there's no one moment, right? Like, this is such a long journey and cultivating the collective leadership we need is, you know, it's a long-term endeavor. And I think what I feel best about is just seeing over time the cumulative effects. Like, every day I get to see this playing itself out in classrooms, in schools, in whole communities, in whole countries. There's so much more to be said, but let me pause.

Yeah, no, of course. I mean, there's loads of things I'd love to dig into just from your— you wrote this great piece in the Diplomatic Courier about some of those things, about purpose and about collective leadership. So I'd love to dig into some of those things, but just specifically, so I heard your talk at Google 10 years ago or 11 years ago now, just when you published the book A Chance to Make History. There were really interesting reflections that you had 10 years ago about the progress of Teach for America, and you were just starting Teach for All. And I wondered just in that last decade since then, how has the Teach for America kind of concept evolved? Or have you— you were talking there about bringing in not just recent graduates into the teaching profession, but also early career, mid-career people into the teaching? Are there, are there things that have evolved about the concept of Teach for America specifically?

Well, one thing that most strikes me, I guess, to your question is just, I must say at that point, or a little before, like let's say 15 years ago now, I mean, I was not thinking about the rest of the world, right? Like my head was down. I was focused on the massive continuing challenges in my own country, but there was just something in the water. Water in the world. I mean, within a year I met people in 13 countries who were determined that something similar needed to happen in their countries, and they were looking for help. And ultimately that led to the launch of Teach For All as a network. I think that what motivated me at the beginning was actually probably what I was communicating in that Google Talk, like, like all the lessons of Teach For America, which was the importance of locally rooted leadership. If we're going to have transformational change in education, like without a critical mass of people exerting leadership at every level of the system, you know, that's what drives progress. And I had just seen that from community to community. And I thought, sure, like, let's support all these incredibly inspiring social entrepreneurs from around the world who wanna live into that idea as well. What I think I underestimated was how much faster we would all be able to move with the ability to learn from each other across borders, you know, and what I, what I learned starting very early on in the Teach for All journey, but it's been reinforced at every point since, I mean, is just every community is different, like every community in every country. And there's so many nuances and cultural differences and all. And what was so overwhelming was to see how eerily similar the roots of the inequities that we're addressing are from place to place. And truly, I spent the first 2 years of the Teach for All journey, like just feeling depressed, like we're fighting the forces of gravity everywhere.

Yeah.

But the silver lining is we could move so much faster. Like if, yeah, if we could actually figure out in education how to share solutions across borders. And so I do think that's become, I mean, yes, we need locally rooted leadership and, and those locally rooted leaders will move a lot more quickly if they're globally informed, meaning exposed to what's working and, and what's possible across context. So That's one evolution I think is just recognizing the global nature of this and, and how we can leverage each other's insights and learnings and move a lot faster. I, I do think the core idea that enlisting, you know, the most promising leaders in any society and very diverse group of them, people with lived experience of the inequities we're addressing and people who have some of the most incredible privilege our society has to offer, enlisting them in teaching in marginalized communities. You know, there's something so— and now there's a lot more research to back this up, but, but that experience shifts people's mindsets, their beliefs about the potential of kids and families, their understanding about the potential to actually solve this problem, their understanding about the nature of the problem and the nature of the solution and their priorities. And it becomes foundational for the kind of leadership we need. I mean, that's what I, I thought 15 years ago based on what I was seeing at Teach For America, and I believe it even more now that I've seen the same movie playing in all these different countries.

It's fascinating, isn't it? I mean, there's, as you say, there's the kind of tragedy of the universality of the problems, like the fact that socioeconomic status has predicted, you know, life outcomes for too long. And as you say, we can challenge that, we can change the story, and you've been showing that. There's that part of it, but also I had a conversation with Rahmatullah Aman, who's the— he started Teach for Afghanistan. It was just such an inspiring thing to speak to him about how he was again, leveraging those high-performing, you know, highly able graduates to go into that work. But as you've said before, it is a kind of a transformational experience. And I liked the way that you— the fact that it's a 2-year experience for some people, actually, as you said, it's useful if they have that 2-year transformational experience and then going to a different sector because then they can inform their work in other sectors. Like you told the story of the Colorado Senator who had the transformational experience and then made these massive changes in legislation as a result of that lived experience. And I think that's incredibly powerful. Like obviously we need some of them to stay in, in the education system, but I, I think it's such a powerful experience meeting those kids, working with those kids. Amazing.

And, and, you know, most of these folks who come in so unsuspectingly committing just 2 years never leave the work, right? Like 70+ percent of them are still full-time in mission-related work. I mean, it may be not as— I mean, some of them as teachers. I mean, many of them do stay as teachers and others as school leaders and school system leaders and people who go into policy or start social innovations that kind of make up for some of the weaknesses in the system. Yeah, but I think your example of Teach for Afghanistan is just perfect, you know, because you think about what's happened there, I mean, incredibly tragically, but those Teach for Afghanistan fellows are teaching and, you know, as the government prepares to hopefully reopen secondary schools for both girls and boys, you know, they're going to face a huge constraint in terms of female teachers and Teach for Afghanistan alongside some others you know, they never left because they are— this is their home, and they can work effectively with families in communities because they understand the local culture and context and all. So it's, it's just— and ultimately, those people who commit 2 years to teach with Teach for Afghanistan do go on, and, you know, they're assuming different leadership roles in the local education governments and whatnot. And, you know, I think if we've seen anything through crises such as the one in Afghanistan and through the entire COVID pandemic, it's the importance of local leadership if we're going to accomplish anything.

Completely.

Absolutely. And as, I mean, as you said, your article, you talked about remaking our world. We need to redesign education. And obviously, as you've already said, it's a systemic problem. There are so many different elements and layered nested problems, clearly. But I mean, you clearly believe that education has a massive role to play. There. So the first part of that you say in that article is about rethinking the purpose of the education system. And I think my observation, perhaps working in education in those last 10 years, for example, since your Google talk, there have been more and more, particularly accelerated by the pandemic, discussions around what a rethought education system might be. And I think there's some, there's some really interesting issues around that in, in relation to the work that you and Teach for America and Teach First in the UK and all those amazing organizations have done. Often quite traditionally, and then now there's a lot of conversation around rethinking education to perhaps a more progressive vision of what education— I think there's a really interesting tension in there that I'd love to talk to you about. But firstly, perhaps you could say, what is it that you think the renewed purpose or revised purpose for education could, should be?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. We— and maybe this is another impact of the global insights, you know, I think about 5 years ago when we had 40 network partners, there was just so much bubbling up across the network in different contexts, like just questions around really what are we working towards together. And we set out on this process of trying to establish a 25-year vision because I really have come to think this is such a long game. So it's like, okay, what are we going to accomplish together in the next 25 years? And because we framed it that way, we started the process by asking ourselves, where will the world be in 25 years? And and in a way we all know, but there was something about that process of just really getting clear about how much the economy is changing and how much the planet is, you know, degrading and all these increasingly complex challenges that we face. And there was just something about that that made it just so abundantly clear that there's no hope for reaching any of our global aspirations if today's students are not growing as leaders who can shape a better future, you know, for themselves. Themselves navigate a changing economy and for all of us, you know, like solve these increasingly complex problems. And so it really led us to just embrace a different purpose than we had. I mean, what drew all of us again together was an effort to achieve equity, just saying it is not fair that some kids have a lot more privilege in the education system than others. And so that kind of led us to work within the system as it is and try to catch kids up. Quickly you start realizing this doesn't work. Like catching kids up in a failing system does not get us where we need to be. And actually we need the kids who have experienced the world's inequity to be the ones leading the charge to create a more equitable world, which means we really need to work towards something different. So, you know, since then we've rethought pretty much everything we do towards a different purpose around saying like, what will it take to develop students who can shape a better future? Like we'll need to work towards a much more holistic set of outcomes and foster students' agency and awareness and et cetera, et cetera. We'll have to develop teachers differently. We'll have to support our alumni differently.

Interesting.

It's like, when do they start learning how to experience, how to do that transformational work or, you know, that agentic work of making change, being a changemaker, which is, you know, everywhere now, this kind of jargon around being a changemaker, but there's something in there about as you recruit these graduates, is it Is it after university that they should start having those experiences or should they be experiencing that ability and the tensions and the challenges around meeting reality and then trying to make change in that reality in a positive way earlier in their educational career? Like we don't let kids experience that, right?

It's all— I was talking with someone yesterday about, I mean, it really needs to start in from the earliest years of anyone's life. Right. Even in early childhood development initiatives. I mean, one of the things that's so on our minds right now, you know, as, as we reflect as a network alongside so many people about what it's gonna take to ensure this generation thrives, you know, despite all the setbacks of the pandemic. And there's so much talk in the world about what we're gonna do to address learning loss and of course mental health challenges and, you know, so much. And I think what, what's not in the discussion, which has bubbled up so much as like the central theme across our network is the importance of whatever we do. I mean, number one, we need to listen to students. We need to open all those spaces where adults are making decisions and get students into those spaces, and we need to ensure that we're approaching this in a way that is in partnership with students, is fostering their ownership for their learning, their sense of agency. There is no other path to ensuring this generation thrives you know, they're gonna have to be able to navigate uncertainty. And I mean, clearly given what's now going on in the world, and it's also the key to student engagement and motivation, and it's the key to speeding up learning. So everything points to this.

Yeah, it is, it is interesting, isn't it? Because you, you use the language of transformational leadership and transformational learning a lot in your book. And then I think again, there's been a lot of use of that word, in the last, let's say, decade, whenever, you know, it's increasingly common. And I think it becomes slightly empty language, but I think when you look at and you tell the stories of, you know, the amazing people going into these schools embodying this kind of transformational approach, I mean, yes, it's coming from them, but it also has to be in partnership with, and part of what they do is engage the students in something bigger than themselves, right? It's not just about, they've got loads of great energy and they go in and they have a sense of urgency and purpose and they just, they do their thing and it doesn't matter who the children are in the room. Absolutely not. It's something about an engagement with those particular human beings, where they are in their lives, who they are as people. And I think there's something there that's quite difficult to articulate, but incredibly important.

Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I think at the time I wrote that book, you know, we had developed a whole teacher development framework based on what we saw differentiating the teachers who were really producing just outlandishly incredible academic results. And I must say that over the last 5 years, given this kind of reorientation of our purpose as a network, we've redone all these studies of what's happening in classrooms where students are not only gaining in their kind of mastery of the academic material and problem-solving and critical thinking skills, but also developing in their sense of agency and their awareness of the world and of themselves and their own strengths and place in it and in their sense of wellbeing and empathy and connectedness and ability to work across lines of difference. And we've reframed our whole thinking around what it takes to teach in a way that does foster those kind of broader, more holistic outcomes. Yeah. And we've, you know, our previous framework was called Teaching as Leadership. I mean, sort of to your point, like the truly transformational teachers are doing what great leaders do. And that's still true, but we've really rearticulated this as teaching as collective leadership, which I hope communicates that this is in deep partnership with students and communities and is about teachers essentially being facilitators of progress.

Amazing. And I mean, I, I wanted to ask you about that. That was the kind of second element of your article, right? You know, you've spoken to it a couple of times already, the collective leadership, but just to build on that, is there, are there some particular elements of competencies or characteristics, or what does the training look like, feel like for those participants when it's about collective leadership rather than this kind of transformational individualistic leadership?

I think one of the most influential internal kind of research projects we did was one where we, we brought together 200 or more teachers who we felt most embodied what we wanted. I mean, developing their students as leaders and We asked them about their development journeys, like where were they when they started teaching and, and how did they progress? And what was— it was just extremely striking to see the extraordinary patterns that they shared. And essentially their journeys were, were journeys of unlearning the way they were taught and learning a different set of mindsets, really. So this new teacher development framework, you know, really starts from the perspective of orientation and mindsets, like, you know, orienting towards a broader purpose. And then really, again, you know, unlearning and learning a new set of mindsets, meaning seeing students as whole people who can lead today, seeing themselves, teachers, as learners. Seeing community as power, meaning seeing the assets in community, and seeing challenges as systemic, meaning when you see issues popping up in your classroom or school or community, understanding that they're not inherent problems within kids and communities, but rather challenges with systemic roots. And I think if— when we succeed in, in helping everyone make those mindset shifts, then the teacher actions and approaches that fall out of that are just, are very different.

Yeah, it's kind of disappointing in a way that you have to reorient around those things, right? Because what you've said there, and it's nothing— seeing our young people that we teach as full human beings, like that should be a prerequisite of walking into a classroom, right? But I think, and this is not at all to blame the teachers, there's a systemic culture perhaps in the education system around outputs and, you know, efficient production. And, and in some ways, I mean, I don't know how you would respond to this, but in some ways your early work for Teach for America was just doing that better, like going in with an absolutely urgent purpose to bring kids to where they really had the potential to be and to be better within that particular system to get to college. Right. But actually my personal view would be that there's something broken about that whole system and therefore we need to reorient. And it sounds like that's kind of the work that you have done, which is amazing.

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, not to, you know, this has been such a learning journey and I think in some ways those early years were, you know, really foundational and of course, like feeling urgency. Patient urgency, but urgency to ensure all kids have the kinds of opportunities that the most privileged kids have is really important. But, but again, as you say, like we've just realized through the years how insufficient it is without rethinking the whole system. Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, we love a story about an inspirational teacher, right? As a trope, you know, throughout all sorts of narratives and stories and films. Like my daughter came home talking about Freedom Writers recently, and this, you know, she's a public school in France with her friends, and they were talking about Freedom Writers, right? This inspirational story about, you know, there's some problematic ideas, there's some problematic issues with the film for sure, and the story, but it is an inspirational story, and we love that narrative, but it's kind of happening despite the system, right? Or often in the face of the system that pushes in a different direction rather than supporting more of that kind of personality and work and energy. Yeah. The only other thing I wanted to mention on that was I think one of the things I'm really interested in is culture. And I think you've spoken to this before. I've heard you speak about it comes from the leadership in the school, transformational leadership in the school, maybe in the district, and of course in the classroom, but you can't do it alone. And therefore there is the strength of culture. And I've observed this in the best schools. It almost doesn't matter what kind of pedagogy, what kind of curriculum they're running, you know, ultra traditional or highly, highly progressive. There is, in the schools where there's this depth and strength of unifying culture, it's an incredible place to be and work.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, I guess it's true about any organization, right?

Absolutely. Yeah.

When your purpose is clear and your values are clear and you're making every single choice rooted in that purpose and those values, then you have functional organizations. And I think the same is true. I mean, certainly It's very visible in schools.

Yeah, it is, isn't it? But the only other thing is writing it down doesn't make it so, right? That just because you've written a mission, a vision, a purpose, whatever, doesn't make it so. And the other thing, again, I've heard you talk about is that it's about people. It's fundamentally about people. And if you have good people who are building each other up, then you'll get the strong culture. It's not about writing a meaningful purpose, whatever, you know?

Yeah, exactly. And What we've seen is that those people really can be developed. You know, I, I'm just, there's more and more research that looks at what happens to the teachers we recruit in different contexts around the world and actually seeing that no matter where you are in the world, we're seeing the same effects is it's kind of surreal, but you know, there are differences like these organizations of ours. I mean, we're making a huge effort to recruit incredible people, right? People who come in demonstrating leadership and achievement and track records and all, and you You can see a difference. Like these studies look at people who are right on the admissions line, like some who barely get in and barely don't. And, and then it looks at what's different then, and also what's different 2 years later and beyond. And there's a difference at the admissions line. Like these organizations are doing a good job. They're selecting good people, but that difference grows so much through the 2 years in terms of things like their belief in the potential of kids and communities and their belief in their own potential to change things. They move from thinking the challenges we're addressing are technical in nature, like more funding is always the number one, like more funding will solve the problem, towards believing that this is an adaptive systemic challenge, that there are no silver bullets, that we need many, many different changes in order to actually get where we're trying to go. And so you realize the importance of really intentional efforts to cultivate the leadership necessary to build those strong cultures at the school level and, and across the whole system.

Yeah, and they're fundamentally relational, right? As you say, they're not about technical— I mean, obviously you need technical tools to support it, but fundamentally at the heart of it, it's all a relational thing, I would say. Yeah, interesting. And then in, in this pulling together this global network, which is now— how many countries are you in now?

We're in 61 at the moment.

Amazing. So fueling that system, if you like, with learning was another thing that you've, you've spoken about. So obviously building up the capacity, collective leadership, and kind of supporting each other to do that, but also and you hinted at it at the beginning, I suppose, but are there systems that you developed across the network to leverage and kind of harness some of that learning, share it? How do you do it? And also why is that so important, do you think, in the work that you're doing?

Yeah, well, we're going at that. I mean, it's a learning journey, even how to do that. It's almost puzzling that in education, I think we have a huge learning problem. Right. Like, meaning, you know, and there are beautiful islands of excellence, like everywhere around the world, like beautiful classrooms, beautiful schools, system innovations, but you know, somehow we're not in one big massive learning loop that's enabling us to capture the new insights. And I actually personally believe that finally changing the trajectory of learning outcomes globally will be a function of our tackling that and really figuring out How do we learn as an education system? So I guess we believe that on the one hand, you know, there's, there's a set of enablers. Like we need to essentially put practitioners and, and educators at the center of the learning journey and build networks among them, like learning networks that are rooted in shared purpose and values and in relationships, which is kind of the enabling environment for learning. And then we need to essentially engage them in surfacing hypotheses and insights and testing those and continuously improving over time. I mean, we've launched something called the Global Learning Lab, whose purpose is to understand what's at work in classrooms and communities where collective leadership is growing. And this learning lab, for example, developed the new teacher development framework I was talking about by, you know, they've probably engaged 3,500 teachers, students, community members over the last 2 years alone essentially virtually visiting some of the most transformational classrooms in the world and surfacing insights from those. And, you know, there's something about their engagement in the process is the most powerful part of the learning journey. I mean, yes, it has evolved a framework that we can now spread, but we won't spread that as a framework to be done. Like, it's kind of more of a framework through which to think about your work, and it will never stop evolving. With the input of all of these and engagement of all of these practitioners. So, and we're about to do the same at the community level, actually, to really work to develop frameworks that will help people understand how to develop leadership at the community level, meaning at every level of the ecosystem around kids, you know, to ultimately affect system change. I mean, it's interesting to me that we've been able to engage hundreds of teachers and others across across, you know, 60 countries and that there's some shared sense of, yeah, like this captures what we're seeing in transformational classrooms around the world. Like it shows you how much we have to learn from each other. And we will be able to do the same thing at the community level without question. Like I can't get over the patterns that we see between like communities where they're actually making progress for kids from place to place.

Yeah, interesting. I think there's something really powerful about what you were saying about the universals versus the local cultural elements, because clearly working in 61 different countries, you've got phenomenally different cultures, both local ethnic and religious and national cultures, but also very specific local cultures down to the village or wherever the schools are. But at the same time you've got these interesting universal, somehow universal patterns that you're seeing. I mean, that's like anthropology, right? That's amazing work to be looking at those two things. But like, what are you seeing, I suppose, that are the universals and then how are you leveraging and again, understanding the kind of local insights that may be strangely congruent and applicable somewhere else in a very different kind of cultural context?

So I guess the way we've thought about this this at every level of this network. I mean, whether it's, you know, supporting the network organizations to learn from each other in terms of how to recruit and develop and support teachers and leaders, you know, or then in turn supporting their teachers to learn from each other and the alumni who are working on system change in different communities is that there, there's a set of choices, which will all be local and we should never prescribe. I mean, we prescribe nothing at Teach for All at the central level, But there are principles that we can understand. Like when we start looking at any given thing, like what's common across these contexts where we're seeing success, like we can establish that there are certain principles that undergird that success or insights we would say, and we can spread the insights. And then people need to figure out how do I act on that insight in this context? So that, that's at a very theoretical level. That's kind of how we think about it. I guess if I was looking across communities, that are making the fastest progress in terms of just aggregate outcomes for kids, you know, we could get into what we think the most fundamental insights are. I've come to think that, well, I think collective leadership development is one of the insights, right? Like where systems are changing, it's never about a single actor. I mean, a single actor can change a lot. It's just that when you see change happening in a sustainable way, it's not really a single actor. It's like you really do have enough people at every level, and they're working towards shared purpose. So for example, we can say, you know, we've come to believe that engaging diverse stakeholders together in rethinking what they're working towards and trying to understand like what needs to be true for young adults given the particular, you know, what was at work in their countries and communities when they were at their best, like the values of a place. The particular context and history and challenges and pathways to opportunity. Like, we can say we know that asking those questions and coming to some answer is going to be important, but telling— like, the answers will be different from place to place.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's brilliant. And I think— I actually think the word insight that you used, and if you use that organizationally, I don't think that's a trivial thing. I think that's a really interesting word. I don't think it's theoretical either. I think there's something about about looking inside ourselves, right? Insight. And, and that idea of sharing those stories across the network, not prescribing but sharing those, those insights, is a really interesting way to approach it. No, that's amazing. But also there's this— again, it's that kind of— we like the lone hero narrative sometimes. And actually, that might make some change. Clearly we know that amazing people going in with loads of energy, it has an impact. Let's not deny that. But at the same time, as you say, make real sustainable change that really is going to bed in, in important ways, it's a collective process. Yeah. Can I ask just one other thing, just in relation to the, the last couple of years? Because obviously it's been a ridiculous series of events for everybody. And have there been things that have come out, particular insights that you've, you've found in the way that your network has responded? Obviously, you know, there's a lot of conversation about the impact of COVID on education systems or at the school level, but have there been any interesting things that, 'cause you've got this really interesting connected network of people, as you say, alumni who are now in amazing positions in different places. And has there been anything that that has enabled you to do in a strange situation like a pandemic?

Yeah, I would say 3 things. One, I think the pandemic really, it increased the value others' place on our work. I think, I mean, I think, you know, when schools are shut down, I mean, where do you turn? Like you turn to creative, committed local leaders and, and there are many of them out there in education. And, and our network was one more source of them, you know, and we really saw just extraordinary acts of heroism individually and collectively on the part of these teachers and alumni who just leaned in, not only to keep their own students learning, but really quickly to help support systems to keep a lot of other students learning as well through everything from using radio and TV to creating digital libraries and videos to training tens of thousands of other teachers. I mean, it was, it was really extraordinary to see that and such an affirmation of the caliber and commitment of the leaders this network's developing. Secondly, we just saw the power of a global network. I mean, solutions were just flying across borders. We had within a week, you know, the first week of March 2020, 1,500 teachers in Teaching Without Internet WhatsApp groups in 4 languages just sharing solutions like, what are we going to do? We had— I mean, we now have whole communities of practice around how to use radio as an educational tool. And it was inspired by one set of alumni in Nigeria who said, the only thing we can do is ask the government for the radio station. And that inspired the Latin Americans to say, radio. And they all came together to share solutions about how to actually do that in a meaningful way. So it really— and it also increased the appetite for virtual cross-border learning. So we have just leaned into that. And we now have 60 communities of practice of teachers and alumni and staff members in different areas of interest that did not exist 2 years ago. And we hope to continue building on that. And then the third thing is, I mean, despite— I mean, there are so many challenges that have been compounded in this, in this era. But we also, of course, we, we try to think about the new possibilities as well. And we've seen a lot of them, you know, like shifts in mindsets more than anything, probably among educators that could, if we can figure out how to sustain and spread them as we, you know, move ahead, really speed up progress towards this vision of, you know, an education system that enables kids to develop as leaders. Like, meaning the world's educators embrace their students as partners in figuring out what we're gonna do, how we're gonna do this learning experience. I mean, that alone, right? Like they enlisted parents in a much more meaningful way and caregivers. They leveraged technology and realized, wow, it really can speed up learning and make it more accessible, centered social-emotional development and wellbeing in a much more fundamental way. And engage kids in just solving problems in communities today. You know, like think about all that, like there's so much to work with.

Yeah.

And, and it's really informing how we think about where we're going from here. Like how can we sustain and spread those shifts and really speed up progress?

That's amazing. Yeah.

Brilliant.

I mean, there's, I'm sorry to bring in a dark side to that because that's all amazing stuff, but there is, it looks like there's also a real crisis in teachers leaving the profession. Partly as a result of the challenges of the last 2 years, but also just a systemic issue. And I don't know whether those two, you know, the positive insights that we've gained, if we brought more of those in and created a culture and an environment where more of those things were possible, you might have less teachers leaving the profession because there would be more, it'd be more of an enriching experience rather than have this kind of real cognitive dissonance of trying to do the things they really want to and believe in, but in a system that does I don't know what—

I really think so. I think that's, I mean, we're, we're undertaking a whole project to analyze, like, what are we learning about teacher recruitment and retention, given that the world is focused on that issue right now? But I'll be amazed if that isn't the fundamental insight. Like we put so much pressure on the teachers and the people at the top of these systems to solve the learning loss, solve this, solve that. We've got overcrowded classrooms. We've got You know, so many challenges, and yet the real need is to get the kids enlisted in the process, and that makes it all so much more fulfilling. So yeah, all of our ends, from teacher recruitment and retention to student engagement and development and achievement, could be lined up in a way that they're not right now.

Yeah, well, amazing. And I, I'm really happy that you're working on it with these incredible people that you've managed to leverage over the these last couple of decades. I mean, you've got what an amazing resource, right, of incredible people pulled into this global network. And it gives me hope.

That's good. I try to retain my hope. I mean, I don't want to minimize the challenges in the world.

No, no, no, of course. But yeah, but we have to act, right? I mean, as much as, you know, it's been increasingly hard to act, you know, when there's so many overwhelming challenges that you see on the news every day. And that, you know, people's lives. But we have to do something. And, you know, I think it's important that we continue to have these conversations and leverage the, as you say, like on WhatsApp and all these brilliant people just sharing ideas in order to, to kind of move things forward.

Totally.

Good stuff. Thank you, Wendy. I mean, totally inspired. Totally inspired.

Thanks for all you're doing to help, you know, inspire people to rethink the way we're progressing in education. It really is like, it's, it's interesting to me. I mean, I know there's a group of us who all believe like this is the key to the world. Right. But it's, it's interesting that there isn't more of a groundswell right now. Like I, when you think about just how overwhelming the challenges of the world are from polarization to the next thing, I mean, it's just like a new, you know, it's hard to understand why we're not stepping back more fundamentally and just realizing if we don't develop kids differently, there's no path to actually getting out of this cycle.

But I think I would say in response to that, as you've talked about this kind of obsession with silver bullets, right? We have this, everyone's got their own silver bullet, their kind of pet project that they think is the silver bullet. And actually the thing that's, well, maybe this is my silver bullet, I don't know. But I think the thing that is required is, as you say, like the stepping back and looking at just the fundamentally human and relational collective act that we have to engage in. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, it's a tough problem, right?

Yeah, totally.

But, um, amazing. I'm just— thank you so much for taking the time.

Oh no, thank you.

So appreciate it. Have an amazing day.

Talk to you too. Have a good day.

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