The Future of the IB - A Conversation with Dr Siva Kumari

Welcome to the Future Learning Design Podcast.

When the machines are talking to each other so fast and potentially can outthink us, it's quite important for us to create a student's mind that's that agile. And I think that's the tough pivot for traditional education systems. It's very hard to evaluate a non-standard answer, and IB does that all the time.

Hi again, welcome back to the podcast, and it's great to be able to bring you this conversation with Dr. Siva Kumari. Dr. Kumari was appointed the 7th Director General of the International Baccalaureate in January 2014, becoming the first woman to hold the post. Dr. Kumari joined the IB in April 2009 as Asia-Pacific Regional Director. In May the following year, she was appointed the first Chief Operating Officer based in Washington with global responsibility for research, university recognition, school improvement, and professional development in relationships with schools, governments, and foundations across the 3 IB regions. Prior to joining the IB, Dr. Kumari ended her 15-year tenure at Rice University in the US as the first Associate Provost for K-12 Initiatives. In her career at Rice, she won competitive US National Science Foundation funding, local and national corporate foundation funding, and national and regional awards for her research and work in teaching and learning. She has a Bachelor of Science degree from India, a Master's degree degree from the University of Cincinnati and a doctorate in education from the University of Houston in online learning. For her work in international education, she has been awarded an honorary doctorate from Amity University in India.

Hi Ziva. Hi Tim, how are you?

I'm very well, thank you. How are you?

Okay.

Very good. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you as well.

So it's obviously been a very challenging past 12 months for all of us, and obviously you are also at quite an auspicious moment coming close to the end of your tenure with the IB. So I just wondered perhaps to start with a bit of reflection about what you've learned personally and also as an organization with the IB over the last 12 months in terms of what learners need and also the work of the IB?

Sure. I think personally it's been a lot, you know, frankly enough for a lifetime, I think. So I'd rather just leave that alone now. I think I'll need some time to process it and probably write about it if anyone cares about it at some time later. I'm not sure it's a really good time to dissect right now because I'm still in the middle of it. I think as far as the IB, I'm really concerned about the toll of this pandemic. And the toll it's taken on all those in the, in the education world, but especially so for the parents and the students and the teachers and the administrators. So it's kind of been essentially a whirlwind with no time for respite or reflection or anything of the sort, you know. So it's just, it's been constant, you know, with the twists and turns and the three sessions and social media. You must have heard and read, you know. So it's just been such a mix of emotions, needing to stay still, needing to get stuff done. And I really feel badly for the students who've been impacted and for the teachers. But what I'm hoping, ever the optimist, is that from this we'll learn a lot of lessons, you know, and we won't go back to whatever was, and really think what is the good we learned during this time.

Yeah.

And what did we learn about ourselves this time? And I think for me, One of the things that has saved us is the IBs. We have the internal assessments, as you know, and we have the external assessments. I think unlike some other educational systems, we had those assets from the students. And we also have, we generally know how schools do, a particular school does over time. So I think both of those have been really good things to use, but you know, this is unprecedented, right? I mean, it is an overused word, but there is no other word, you know, because it's not going away. So I think parents have learned a lot about teaching and we have learned a lot about what's good teaching and what's bad. We also have learned that we really don't need to run around the world to meet each other in person to get a lot of things done. You know? Yeah. So I think for me, the ramp off after the pandemic, I hope will be at a higher level rather than coming down to what was before.

Okay. Yeah.

I could do the past. There are a lot of advantages. I think.

Yeah, I mean, obviously the examinations, as you talked about internal assessments, but the examinations has been quite a big challenge for all organizations. I know for you as well. And has that given you any kind of learning in terms of the needs of learners and the needs for and of standardized assessment? You know, what have you learned from those kind of episodes, which are still ongoing now, right? As you've just announced.

So, you know, I think for the current session, it's what it is, right? So we have exams, either people can sit the exams or not, and we worked with schools to come to those decisions with the school because it's fairly analog at the moment. You know, it's a paper-based exam, as you know, but the big thing for me is I think we have already been thinking about these issues because we were constructing our strategy. So for me, I've been fairly vocal about this. So there, I don't think students should be taxed at the end of 2 years of study to give their best on 3 or 4 days. I just inherently, I mean, having gone through an Indian education system and all of that where I had to study for 3 years and do my best on a single day, you know, I find these are outmoded ways of assessing. So I think we really need to think through what is the best way of evaluating students' learning and how to be fairer to the students and the teachers. And I think there technology can play a role, but other forms of assessment can also play a role. And there's a lot, you know, this is education. So every time you have an opinion, there'll be a counter opinion.

We know that. Absolutely. Yeah.

So, you know, the other aspect for me is I think if I can pivot into a different topic, I think that's the future of how we come out of this is to think through how can technology be a power that we use, not just to be an emergency use like we're doing right now, right? Like, oh, you know, we have to get on Zoom calls, but how can it really enable students to learn a lot more and learn a lot by themselves and, you know, prove their learning in different ways, etc. It can be done. I think it requires thinking.

Yeah, well, I mean, certainly there's been a lot of that's been done over the last 12 months of schools just pivoting very quickly, right? Yeah. You know, which has been incredible to watch, but at the same time, I think, as you said earlier, there's a need for a pause and a bit of reflection about whether we've just shifted the mode of delivery onto online or whether we've actually shifted the pedagogy, right?

Exactly.

And I think, yeah, I totally agree. But maybe that leads nicely on to this role that the IB plays in innovation. And I've worked with the IB for a long time, and I've always respected that there's a lot of forward-thinking educators within the IB network. And even talking to Andreas Schleicher last week, he mentioned the IB as a group who have always been doing progressive and interesting things.

Yeah.

And obviously the start of the IB was very much about that. And I just wondered how you then would respond to the idea that perhaps as things are changing very rapidly and we're challenging the idea of those large high-stakes standardized assessments, as you say, at the end of 2 years, like the DP exams, etc., what's that tension now for you in terms of the role of the IB in moving things forward in terms of innovation? And actually, at the same time, perhaps the IB has become part of the traditional organizations such as Cambridge and, you know, the other assessment bodies who actually are preventing some of that innovation. I don't know, what were your reflections on that tension there?

Yeah, look, I don't think the IB is ever going to be stagnant. It's a constantly evolving organization. Now, people looking at it from the outside, do they feel it should move faster? Yes. You know, when it was smaller, could it move faster? Yes. You know, I think the exciting thing for me is the nature of the organization is very innovative. You know, in its DNA. I mean, it may not seem like it for some who want the rate of change to be higher, and I certainly am one of those impatient people, like, let's move faster. For me, it continues to be reflective of its highly progressive education. And think about it, it has to sit as a body by itself, and, you know, it has to subscribe to university people, it has to, you know, compete with national systems and all of that. So it has to be a little bit careful at this size and thoughtful in any implementation. But I think it continues to be innovative in its thinking, you know, and I think for a long time it's always thought of knowledge, skills, and attributes, but it doesn't shout about it loud over the things. And I have to say first a shout out to Andreas. I think he's done so much for education with his, you know, deeply clinical scientific mind as it were. And also he's been really good about talking about the IB. So I think we have been thinking about it. I'm particularly focused on the skills area right now, you know, with all that we've learned, I think like for me, obviously in this fourth industrial revolution, there's just like this unprecedented volume of information for children and also for teachers, you know, and we know the rate of change of knowledge is very, very high. So how do you keep up with that knowledge? I mean, there's some statistics that the kid who enters bachelor's, by the time they finish their 4 years, 50% of their knowledge is actually redundant, you know. So, so this is, I think for me, quite a time for us to be reflective as educators to say, what are we really supposed to teach? You know, so how do we teach children to learn and unlearn, be resilient, ask the right questions in a system that actually wants a right answer and in regulators that want right answers and fairness and, you know, and all of that in this heavy bookends of like a DP program has to deal with some students coming from everywhere, 2 years, student going out to universities. How do you make that change, especially when the systems don't talk? Right, like higher education doesn't talk to anyone else before they make their changes. These people here are not talking to anyone, so it's kind of, I think for me, this is, this is why I think students have to be very reflective about the learning process and okay with, with making mistakes, right, but how do you construct that within a 2-year program is I think what a lot of the time that my colleagues spend thinking, you know, and they also I think kind of keep pushing the edges. I mean, our math curriculum recently that's been launched is pushing the edges, you know, the computer science and all of that. And I think for me, it's also how do you keep the human in all of this, you know, thinking a lot about how to ground themselves. I give a lot of these end-of-school talks, and I always say to the students, you know, own your culture and own— create your own anchor in life with all of this information that's floating about. So the heady mix for the IB is how do you stay holistic And how do you stay relevant with all of this changing information? And how do you keep the teachers on board? Because I think that's quite important to have them at your side.

I suppose, I mean, the IB also has quite a lot of respect and weight in the education sector, and actually perhaps it could do more in terms of its lobbying power actually upwards with the universities, because as you say, that we have to enable students to move through that pathway into the universities and further education that they want to go to. But actually, I feel there's a bit more of a possibility for the IB to lead some of that conversation around what's going on in higher ed now as well.

Yeah, to circle back to your first question in that regard, and I'll answer this question, is, Tim Logan, when I had to make that very painful decision of canceling exams last year, which has never been done, and we were first out of the gate as well, I called friends in universities, not personal friends, but friends of the IB in universities, And I think it is very, very empowering what you say. We do have respect in universities. And then I'll circle back to the question you're asking. So, so the influence part, I think it's mutual, you know. I think universities want change as well. I'm not talking about the big state systems, but I'm talking about those universities who spend a lot of time thinking about their class, right? Like what kind of students do we bring together? And that's my past as well. I worked at Rice University before joining IDE. So you get a lot of really good students and you're trying to figure out among all of these good students how do we put the perfect undergraduate incoming class together. So, you know, the universities are telling the IB to think about two things: think about how we arrive at the grades we're giving now and also what else can we give. So, you know, the grades we give now are mini essays, large essays, etc. So they're saying could you include more projects in there Could you include more team-building work in there so that the composite of how you're arriving at that grade changes? They love the grade. They love that we keep it standard, you know, compared to other systems. So all of that is good. And then they're also saying, but we also want more from you. So we want to know what kind of a student are you delivering us? Is this a person who's always been curious, has always been creative, or has lately learned to be curious, or is the malleable and all of this kind of stuff? I think so all of that will become quite important, but there you are right. I think universities have in general, they're very pleased to see the kind of student that comes as a result of being prepared by IB. They can easily identify that student in an undergraduate class because of the type of questions the student is asking, the way they're writing, etc. So all of those are good, and so how do we build on those, how do we maintain that and build, is the thing for my colleagues to worry about.

Definitely, but also I suppose there's been some talk, and I wanted to ask you about this, more specifically about your hopefully developing partnerships with the Jacobs Foundation and the Australian Council for Educational Research, looking at some of those things you've just been talking about there in terms of the curiosity aspect, the creativity, and I had heard, and I don't know, some kind of a Mastery Transcript research pilot. Could you say a bit more about those?

Yeah, so the— it's been a long-term collaboration with Jacobs because these things don't happen overnight, so we've been in talks with them for quite a while, and I'm delighted. I think they're The foundation is a very progressive foundation, and a very generous foundation in the sense that they're not just there to fund your activity, they're there as thought partners, which is, you know, for funders is very different. So it was more of an alignment of philosophy and work that led to this work. So I'm very excited about it. You know, we're taking two attributes, you know, curiosity and creativity. And what we are going to work with is we have research partners as well that we are part of the collaboration. So we're working with University of Oxford and ACER, which is the Australian Council on Educational Research. And it is essentially to do two things, to go deep into the academic research with people who have just studied curiosity and creativity. And that for me is absolute fun because you're really digging deep into it, you know, and then defining what is it for implementation in K-12. And then we're also working to see, okay, how do teachers teach this? And what would it look like on a potential transcript and working that out as well. So it's very, very exciting work, and long may the relationship between IB and Jacobs last to get on to the other attributes as well. You know, I think it's the right partners at the right time working on the right things.

Very good. Yeah, I know it's very exciting because I think, as you said, the universities like the grades, right? And there's an efficiency around that, there's a standardized element of course, but but there is this other piece which I think is so important, which is the other attributes, the dispositions that we're talking about, the social emotional competencies, all of those things that we know are going to enable people to thrive and be successful in the future. But how do we enable it so that universities can handle those? Well, teachers first and schools, but then also universities. And I think that piece of some kind of mastery transcript obviously the consortium already is doing some good work in that area, but it's exciting to see that.

Yeah, I don't know that we've decided yet to call it a master transcript or not. I think we're definitely working on the guts of it and, you know, names and all of that can come later.

Of course. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's, I know there's a number of other people out in the, you know, in different places looking into these questions, because I think this is the big area where we really need to move forward if we're going to support more innovation, because It's an essential area, as you say, knowledge will be outdated, the skills have a half-life, you know.

Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely required. And, you know, I mean, you know, if you read about the fourth industrial revolution and we're in it already where, you know, we can monetize our homes and don't need to know who the person is that can rent a home from them in Canada or whatever.

Yeah.

And get a call from somebody I don't know and get a ride, you know, pay without having to touch it. All of this is happening in real time. So for me, I think when the machines are talking to each other, are changing on each other so fast and potentially can outthink us, you know, with the internet of things and all of this, it's quite important for us to create a student's mind that's that agile, you know, and I think that's the tough pivot for traditional education systems. It's very hard to evaluate a non-standard answer in the education business. And IB does that all the time. I mean, you know, the theory of knowledge and all of that. So it's like, how do you create more messy, non-standard evaluation evaluations and standardize them for output. It's a really tricky problem.

You're squaring a circle, right? Yeah, absolutely. But a very important question, definitely.

Yeah.

And then just to connect with that in terms of a more vocational, with the CP, career-related program, which is relatively new obviously to the IB, where do you see that sitting with this conversation around— because obviously you've got the DP, which is pretty intense academic program, programme, and then the CP, which has, I think, loads of great potential in it. Where's that going?

Well, I mean, it's a younger programme, so the growth will have like a slow steady and then take off, right? As we know the nature of these things. For me, it is a programme that has really changed children's lives, and I've been able to see it. I mean, I've gone to Kent where we kind of did the pilot and see the students who before didn't think of themselves as academic who took 2 or 3 courses through the CP and they decided they're going to go into universities for a full academic program, etc. So the program served 2 purposes, I think. The intended purpose of can we put something really strong and academic along with the vocational qualification? And then this unexpected benefit of students saying, heck, if I can do these 2 courses, I can go to a fully academic as opposed to a vocational program. So I think that's great. And then the program has been designed to obviously include reflection and international-mindedness and all of that in the mix as well. So it'll come up for renewal like all our programs do, and I think it'll be time to take stock and think about that. But for now, I think we are looking at the career-related courses that sit, which are not ours. How are they functioning? You know, is there a better partner for some of these and can we make it easier for schools to come into the CPA and all of this kind of stuff? In general, it's a very cautious organization, you know, to move things forward. So I think we'll have to think about all of those, but I think it served its purpose, you know.

Good. Yeah, that's great. I think again, for me, there is a real opportunity there to not only enable young people to obviously, you know, go off into academic programs if they want to, but also to raise the bar and the profile of vocational programs. Cause we, you know, we've always had this second-class track, right, for vocational programs, But given what we've just been talking about, about the agility and the skills that students need, actually there's so much in those vocational type programs, which are just so relevant now in terms of the future of work. So actually raising up all of the aspects of a vocational program to be on par with an academic program, just as a different track, would also be a really interesting—

It's also a more, just a more practical world problem, Tim.

Yeah.

Because we are all in the IB in a nice space, we have our own bubble, We have our own contentions with each other and all of that, but the reality of the world is there's a lot of unemployment in the world for youth, and those numbers are staggering. And therefore the connectivity between the K-12 and the world of work so that there's employment for students and they feel strong enough to enter an employment world, live in it, thrive in it, and then think of other things, I think is also really, really important. Important. So I think as we think about the CP in the future, it's also important to think of the connectivity between what's happening in the world of unemployment and youth.

Yeah, good. I would love if I could ask you just two more small questions. One is that I know, because obviously you've mentioned the IB educators and that, you know, I think there's a huge kind of loyal group of educators working with the IB or wanting to come work with the IB. And I know you've had this partnership now a little while with the University of People to support more inclusive access into training and development for teachers and educators. And what I wondered, what the impacts of that are, or, you know, where that's going. And also just in general about the IBEN network and how we can kind of leverage that huge pool of expertise perhaps a bit more as well.

Yeah, I mean, I just adore the IB Educator Network. I was instrumental in coining it when I came into the IB, the term itself. But I came into the IB because I knew IB educators, and I thought they were fabulous individuals who were thinking a lot about pedagogy. And I thought, this is a community I want to know about. And that's how I kind of got interested in the IB. You know, I've often spoken about them. I just think they're phenomenal. But besides the taxing job of teaching, they decide to get out of that and teach others, it's like, wow, these are incredible people. And I— we have strategies in place to think of more recognition and reward for IBEN in professional ways. As far as the University of People program, it's something I'm extremely proud of, you know. Essentially, for our 50th anniversary, I was just trying to think what would be a more enduring gift than, say, a dinner party, you know, to celebrate IB 50 years. And so we created, we invested in this program, and it's not ours, it's the University of People, and Shai Ressef, who's the president, does an amazing job. So we created this master's and it's tuition-free because that's how the university operates. But we also have created a scholarship because I was very cognizant that to get the degree from the university, people had to pay roughly $2,800. Now, for some, $2,800 might be a bargain to get a master's, but there are parts of the world where that is simply not affordable.

Absolutely.

So we created these scholarships around the world, and we've created these country councils around the world, you know. So all of these people are busy reviewing the applications and giving scholarships, and we've given a lot of them away. And there are many stories that are just coming out now of people having finished the master's, and it's, it's, it's a fully accredited master's. So I think for me it's just a joy to see teachers taking advantage of it.

Yeah, that's fantastic because sometimes there is criticism of the IB in the sense of being quite an elite club, which is, you know, and it does cost quite a lot of money to get into the club, right? So actually to bring that inclusive aspect to it and enable more people to join is fantastic.

Yeah, as far as the cost, I think one of the things that I've been concerned about during my tenure is those costs for schools. Yes, it is small amount for some schools, but it is a big amount for a large number of schools. So, you know, we haven't increased— at least during my tenure, we haven't increased the fees, you know, for, for the past 7 years or so. So I think that's quite important because that actually means we are running a highly efficient organization without taxing. And also, I think in the future, for all of these innovations that IB has to invest in, you know, I made sure that there's enough money put away so that we're not taxing the schools. Because, you know, before it used to be that every time we thought of something, our costs would go up and we would increase the fees. And I thought this is not a good idea because first of all, you'll start limiting your thinking because you haven't got the money to pay for it. Yeah. And second, I think the school shouldn't feel the pain of the IB innovating, etc. So I think it's set up for a very good future.

Very good, yeah, great. Well, I mean, I wish you the very best of luck with your next adventures, whatever they may be. But just then, as just one very final short question, what— with Olli-Pekka Heinonen coming in as your successor, what do you think would be the biggest challenge for him taking on this IB community?

Yeah, I think from a challenge as a DG perspective, you know, it's just going to be having to get out of this pandemic and coming back to whatever the new normal is, is going to be quite an undertaking. Because it has two parts to it. It has this whole pivoting we've had to do with the examinations and working with political systems that are making educational decisions that are probably not sound, you know. So trying to get through all of that and coming back to what I hope is not before, and taking all the lessons learned and going to a higher or a different place. So I think that's a good challenge to tackle. And then there's two other things, and I've spoken to him, you know, just yesterday, so I can say that these are things I've given to him as well, is, you know, we have conducted a long review of the diploma program and come to some conclusions. So, so I think thinking through those conclusions, you know, more seriously to moving to the implementation, what we think, because the community is waiting and it's the right thing to do, and there are really exciting ideas And that was a very broad kind of collaborative exercise we conducted to get ideas. So I think there's that. And then the strategy that is very robust now to kind of take a look at it and see what needs to be implemented, you know? So, so I think those, those are enough.

That should keep him busy for a little while.

Yeah. For a tad bit.

Very good. Well, thank you, Seema. I'm conscious of your time, but thank you. I really appreciate the chance to chat to you. And yeah, like I say, I wish you the best, whatever your next challenges are, your yourself.

So thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Take care.

Thanks. Good time. Bye-bye now.

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