Her Resources Podcast EP 16: Tisha Deden On The New Era of Employee Retention Strategies

Hi there, and welcome to The HR Podcast. This is Linda Misegaitis and Cindy Manuel, and we'll be your co-hosts.

After spending years working in and with HR, we thought, why not start a podcast to support the important HR community? We believe the way things have always been done isn't necessarily what's going to work in the future. So we're diving into topics that support HR and working women as they navigate the future of work. We're talking about professional growth, and also how we can support each other as human beings.

We can't wait to bring you insights from HR experts, thought leaders, and inspiring women who are making a real difference in their organization and communities. They'll share their journeys and tips on balancing work and life in a better way. We're excited to learn alongside you and hope you'll pick up some great takeaways from tips and tricks to worksheets that you can actually use in your daily life.

So grab your favorite beverage or lace up your walking shoes and join us for the HR: Her Resources Podcast.

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Her Resources Podcast. I'm so excited to be here with my co-host, Cindy Manuel. How are you today?

Hello, good morning. I'm freezing cold.

We finally got snow. Snow showed up, yes.

12 degrees, 12 degrees. Yep, gotta love it.

But you know what I love about it? It's a great hidden secret about Colorado is that people think we have these horrible winters and it's just so miserable here and, and that we're all locked in or something and we're not, you know, it's like this will be like they think middle next week it's supposed to be back in the 50s or something like that. So don't tell anybody.

The sun is shining.

I know that's what I would say whenever anybody says, oh, I love Colorado. I'm like, oh no, it's not very good. Yeah, I've lived there my whole life.

It's horrible. Yeah.

Oh my goodness. Well, we are so excited to have in the studio with us today Tisha Deden, who Cindy and I both have a lot of history with, and we're so excited to have her on the show. She is the vice president of HR at Group Voyagers Incorporated, and we're going to be talking about employee retention and engagement. So Cindy, I'm going to hand it over to you to introduce Tisha to everyone.

I'm so excited to get to introduce you today, Tisha, and then we're just going to have a conversation. And as Linda said, we go back over 20 years. We all worked together at a place called McDATA, which was a high-tech company back in the day. And Tisha, you and I got to work in HR there together, and Linda headed up payroll. And so this is like a homecoming for us. But today, you have had such an amazing journey, Tisha, 25-year HR professional that has worked in all aspects of HR. Her sweet spots are employee benefits and employee relations, and not for the faint of heart as far as I'm concerned. I like your favorite quote that you shared with us, "Everything you want is on the other side of hard." We're going to want to know more about that. And then your direct approach to solving problems and collaboration has allowed you to gain respect and support as a leader. I'm not surprised by that at all. Tisha has been an integral part of the success of the Globus family of brands' people operations for 20 years and currently holds the role of VP of HR. Welcome to the HR Podcast. So happy to have you.

I'm so excited to be here and to share and to learn. And so this is a great opportunity to kind of come full circle with both of you.

Thank you so much. And you said you were out not shoveling snow, but sweeping snow this morning because it was so light.

This is the great thing about the freezing weather, right? That's what I was telling my husband this morning. I'm like, well, the good thing is, is at least when it's this cold, the snow is easy to move.

So get your broom and sweep it off. That's right. Just sweep it out.

No, I love it. Well, Cindy, you want to jump right in? I mean, I'm excited about this one because this is such a hot topic these days. Engagement and retention are on the top of minds of everyone. And I think for a different reason. Like, you know, we've cycled through this over the years in HR, right? Where it's sometimes it's an employer market and then sometimes it's an employee market. But I think it was different back then. There's a different reason today why employee engagement and retention is creating so many challenges. And I can't wait to jump into this with the two of you.

Yeah, absolutely. And Tisha, I know this was something that this is near and dear to your heart and something that you can share kind of what your journey has been. But because so many people in our community and we're so grateful for this are from HR, can you just share a little bit more about your HR journey with us?

Yeah.

Yes, it's been a journey. So I actually will be celebrating 20 years with my current company. Wow.

Congratulations.

Congratulations.

How is that possible when we're all only 21? I know we're all so young.

Started fresh out of kindergarten.

Yeah, yeah. But I have the unique history that I was one of those people who went to college and got a degree in a field that I actually stayed in. Yeah, and I always loved HR, but not for the reason that a lot of people say that they're in HR because they love people. Not that I don't love people, but I like to be a part of change, and sometimes that change is good, and sometimes that change is, you know, could be seen as negative, but I want to be a part of the change and help innovate and help grow a company. So I started in benefits, and so that's why it's one of my favorite spots, and really grew from there. And so I have been— I've worked in the tech industry, I've worked in healthcare, and then found my home with Group Voyagers, which is a travel company. So I have the travel bug and have the great pleasure of hiring people who love travel, and then I have the ability to travel. So Amazing. I've learned a ton though these past 20 years with my current company.

I love that.

Tell us some place fun that you've got to travel to. So let's talk about fun stuff first.

Yeah, there's so— I mean, I've been to so many great places. I would say that the top of my list is Egypt. Wow. I was there in 2023 in October. I landed on the day of the strike. October 7th, actually, and did not even know it. I just, you know, imagine landing in this foreign, you know, you just traveled 18 hours and you land and you're tired and you're excited, and then your phone starts going off and it's like, what does my husband mean that he wants me to come home? Right. But we stayed, and I have to tell you, it changed me. Wow. It changed me as a person to see these people who have such a rich culture They love their, their country. They love their culture. They love their people and they want to share it with you. So I rode a camel. I saw the pyramids. It was really a life-changing trip for me. So Egypt is high on my list. And to say that I saw the Nile River, like, oh, that's pretty cool.

Yeah, no, that's really amazing. How cool is it? I mean, that's one of the things I love about traveling to other countries and other cultures is because you know, growing up in the United States and before, you know, like we've all been around a little bit, is that our world was very small. And so our perspective was also very small. And so all we had was a perspective of what we were told about other countries, other cultures. And so to now have the opportunity to go and travel and experience them yourself and really see, I love that you're doing that. And I love what you shared. That is so amazing.

Yeah, one of my favorite quotes that used to be on the back of all of our business cards is from St. Augustine. The world is a book, and those that do not travel read only one page.

Oh wow, like that. That's a real—

I'm reading lots of pages.

Yes, yes.

How many different countries have you been to at this point then?

I would say I've probably been to about 10 or 12 different countries at this point, and over half of the U.S. States, all over Canada, and all over the Caribbean.

So that's amazing.

That's great.

Many opportunities to travel.

That's fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. Now, that's great. Well, Cindy, how— what do you want to jump into first?

Yeah, so I mean, I want to just sort of peel back the layers of employee retention matters, right? So first of all, before we get into anything, I have a few stats, which Linda is always the stats gal. So I'm going to take a little bit of, um, of her direction here today. So according to Gallup, 23% of employees report feeling engaged at work globally. 70% of employees say their engagement is influenced by their manager or their leader, and that's from Deloitte. So one of the things that I said I wanted to come back to is when your quote was, everything you want is on the other side of hard. So in your opinion, you know, what's hard about employee retention and why does it matter?

Yeah.

So, yeah, and you said, you know, let's peel back the layers. It's definitely an onion, and sometimes it will make you cry. And I think it's hard because sometimes we take it personally as leaders. My employees aren't happy and they're not engaged, so it must mean that I did something wrong.

It's a really good point.

And I think that we need to not personalize— we need not internalize this, but think about, okay, how do I solve the problem? Let's be solutions-oriented about it. I think it's hard because every person that reports to you is different. So you're going to have to engage different employees in different ways. So if you have a team of 20, you might have 20 different ways that you're trying to engage those employees. So you're going to have to get creative, but I think always focusing on the solution rather than the problem, I think is what helps often.

I really like that. I know when I was coming up through my manager journey, one of the things that was important to me was what you said there is adapting my style for the people who worked for me and not expecting everybody else to adapt to me. Because it would be unfair for all of them to have to change to accommodate how I want to be received or communicated with. It was much easier for me to be the— the chameleon in that regard to really adjust and adapt. Because to your point, everybody has different needs. How they want to be interacted with is so different. And I do think that is a big part of your responsibility as a leader. But also, it is really freaking hard, right? I mean, let's just be honest.

Yeah. It's hard. It's hard.

Yeah. And so you always hear managers say, I don't hate being a manager. It's the people part of it that I hate. The people part is so difficult, right?

It's really hard, and I will tell you, I still struggle with it every single day. Well, I think we've done a really good job of getting our engagement up, which I'm excited to share some of those stats with you guys here soon. But it's hard, and every day I have to remind myself, you know what, I can't expect people to behave and act in the way that I do.

That's right.

Because you never know. You never know.

Yeah.

Like, I might— my dog may have just died, right? Or My parent may be, you know, like recently my mom fell and broke her leg and that was a huge impact. You just don't know what people have going on in their own personal lives layered on top of, going back to the onion analogy, layered on top of what they're coming to work, you know, to do every day.

So yeah.

Yeah.

So it is hard. So, but we don't run away from hard things, right?

That's right. You're a good leader. That's right.

That's it. We don't run away from it.

Yeah. And not if you're HR. You don't stay in our fields for all these years if you're willing to work, if you want to run away from hard things. So yeah.

And I love humans.

I do too.

So much to learn. And so that's why it's my favorite quote because I don't want to run away from things that are hard. I want to just dive in and let's try to figure this out.

That's awesome.

So along those lines then, Tisha, can you just sort of share some examples and some of the things that you have done to address— because we know— sorry to just take a step backwards, but we know like with the pandemic too, like back to your point, Linda, for years and years, it was either an employer's market or an employee's market. But I think the pandemic just also brought a lot more to the, the challenges, the hard things, right? Because we started to work remotely and now people are trying to bring their employees back to the office. And so there's a lot of additional things to focus on.

So Tisha— Well, and it humanized the workforce, right? Because before that, they were considered resources, right? They were literally just resources there to do a job and, and to deliver on whatever that company or organization was looking for. And suddenly the pandemic came along and we were all impacted. So it was businesses, people, everyone across the board. And so it humanized all of those aspects. And I think it shifted forever the expectation of the employee-employer relationship as well.

I love that, that it humanized us because I don't think that we gave the pandemic enough credit for what it did to us as businesses, as leaders, as employees. It put us all on the same level playing field. We all had the same struggles.

That's a good point.

We have kids at home. We have, you know, I saw your dog in your lap. It's like now it's like I'm a human.

I'm a whole human.

And I will say for our company, the pandemic changed me so much. Travel was like every industry, but we were really impacted.

Oh gosh, yeah.

You know, we laid off 50% of our population, and so we were a different company. And so we started to make our comeback. We started to hire people back, which was great. But in 2022, we realized we had a problem. You know, we were used to— I could just go talk to Cindy at the water cooler, and Cindy was happy. I knew if she was happy because we were face to face. And we realized the people that we started to hire back, that we probably hired the wrong type of talent because we were still thinking 2019 2019. Yeah, we were all in the building, that we could see each other, that we could address problems right away. And so, um, at the end of 2022, ladies, we had a 50%, um, attrition rate.

Oh my gosh.

So we were just hemorrhaging people.

And yeah, like, what in the heck just happened? Yes, right?

Yeah, the world turned upside down.

It turned upside down. And so then again, it was, we have to turn— what What did we do wrong? And let's look for a solution. And so that's where we, we, and I say we, this is not an HR problem.

Yes.

I love that too, because Linda, you and I say that all the time, right? HR to have a seat at the table, of course.

Yes.

But it shouldn't all be on HR.

No. Yes. Engagement and retention, I believe, is a company issue. So that means other employees play into this.

That's right.

The leadership team plays into it. So it was a we. And so as a leadership team, we sat down and said, what are we going to do to help? Get more retention. And so we decided, let's focus on engagement, because if you engage your employees, then ideally they will stay because we're giving them something to stay for. So we had to figure out a way— how do you build back that sense of community? Yeah, yes, in a remote environment. So that was the big challenge that I love.

Something that you said there, Tisha, when you said we realized maybe we hired the wrong people. Talk a little bit about that, because I think That is something that is really important, especially in the current environment, right? Because like we were talking about, people are different, so their needs are different. And so some people are going to flourish and some people aren't. So talk a little bit about that, kind of what you learned from that.

Yeah, so I think we didn't change our interview questions. So we were still asking the same interview questions of someone that they were going to be face-to-face with us. So by hiring the wrong people, if I'm hiring people who say that they thrive on one-on-one interaction, well, that's probably not the right person in our new remote environment.

Right.

If I'm hiring people who say that, you know, they, they want their manager to meet with them regularly and they like to have all of these projects, well, that's not where we were. So, we really needed to take a step back and say the questions that we asked in 2019 and the types of people that we hired were not the right people in this new remote environment. We needed to have people who could work autonomously. Don't need to have us holding their hand, that they don't need to see Linda and Cindy every day. And, and that's a different kind of person because not everyone is successful in a remote environment.

That is so true.

And but we, we realized that later in the process, so we had to really change the way we were thinking and start attracting the right people so that we could hire the right people.

I love that. Oh, I'm sorry, Cindy, I was just going to ask real quick, how did you communicate with your leaders, um, around that too. Was it something that you all sat down together as you were analyzing and realizing that you hired the wrong people? Or was this like HR noticed it? Like, who noticed that? And then how did you go about bringing that forward to leadership to say, we need to shift what we're doing here?

I think I would say it was, again, a we. So on my VP team in particular, we were very panicked about this. We had always— we had, and I should back up, we had an 85% retention rate.

Oh, wow.

So to go to a 50%, we all were panicked. And so we just started to look at the data. Data drives decision. And so we started to look at the data. We've lost these 10 people. What do these people have in common? And so just starting to look at what were the commonalities of why people were leaving. Were they giving us reasons? So looking at your exit interview data if you do those. So really just digging into the data, and I was open. I'm a collaborator by nature, but I had to, you know, open up the book. Let's pull back the curtain, as they say.

Yeah.

Let's just really dig into what is the data telling us and where are the problems. And so our leaders were very interested in helping, and it was great because it held me accountable as the HR leader to say, I got to find the data.

Yeah.

And let me share the data so that we can help find the solution. And so that's why I feel very strongly that retention and engagement is not just on HR, it's on all of us.

And Tisha, were you in your current role as the VP of HR when all this was happening? Like, when did that— when did that promotion happen?

I was the director at the time when we really started to notice an issue, and then I was promoted to VP. And so with that came— when much is given, much is required. Yeah. And so with that came this greater sense of responsibility is how do I truly help the company grow and do the comeback? So that's where the promotion happened, kind of in the middle of that.

Yeah, that's exciting.

Hard things again.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So you guys still have a work— a remote workforce, it sounds like. So, and you— it sounds also like you kind of started at the beginning of the employee life cycle, right? How do we attract the right people? How do we have the correct interview questions? What are some other things that you guys have done to engage a remote workforce? Because it is really challenging.

It is really challenging.

Very challenging. So I started, as you said, from the beginning. So I had to look at my HR team. Yeah, you want to make sure you have the right people in the right structure.

That's such a great point. Oh my gosh, we forget that so often. We just assume that the people that are in HR know what to do because, well, they're in HR, so naturally they must. But sometimes they're not the right resources, right?

And each individual as well, right? And they—

yeah, engaged and be a part of it. So that is my HR mission and vision and really needed to get the team on board with that. So I ended up restructuring my HR team into pillars. So I decided to make the team specialist, and so I really wanted to have everyone to have a focus so that we could do what we do well.

Yeah.

Really good in digging, right? Yeah. So I brought my team in.

Not too much to focus on.

Not too much to focus on.

Right.

Right. Because we all were kind of running around with our hair on fire. Yeah. So I had 3 pillars. I had a talent acquisition team. So I wanted them to really dig into how do we hire people?

Yeah.

What does that look like? So they really dug into that part. Then I built a team that I called associate experience at the time. They're now called my retention team. Yeah. But it was all about our onboarding because I think it's important. We used to just do orientation. And I do think that there's a difference between orientation and onboarding.

I totally agree with you.

Tell us what the difference is, Tisha, in your opinion.

So orientation is you're just checking a box. It's like, let me make sure you understand your benefits. Oh, you've got your system. But onboarding is, do I have a training plan? Have I met the key people in the team? Do I understand the mission, vision, and values of the company? What are my key stakeholders in the business? What makes this company tick? What's the history? So, really digging in. So, we built an entire onboarding program. And so, we had what needed to happen at 7 days, 14 days, 30, 60, 90. I love that.

Love that.

And then we did 180 in 1 year. So, I— that— my associate experience team really focused on that. And then I had an HR administration team, which is, you know, the nuts and bolts of the team, you know, making sure that the system integrity is good, are the handbooks updated. That was the first thing. And then we built our vision, which was to get everyone from hire to retire.

Love that.

What does that look like? And so that launched for us in 2023 what we called the Year of Engagement. We called it the Year of Engagement retroactively, by the way.

We were like, in hindsight, this is what this was.

Yeah, we didn't know what we were doing, but then we figured it out.

We figured it out. But it was— 2023 was really our year of engagement, and that was where We asked the employee, what do you need?

I like that.

Why do you stay? And we took away the negative connotation of a survey.

Yes. And we call it a pulse check.

People don't like, I don't want to do another survey. No, they don't.

That feels big, right?

And cumbersome.

Pulse check feels like short and just, yeah, easy to do.

Yeah, just checking in. Yeah.

And it was 5 to 6 questions. And so we have a whole bank now, but we just, we dug in and our first one was big. I will say the first one was a survey. But then as we were able to dig out every quarter, so we do pulse checks quarterly, and we still do that now. And we would just see, OK, what was our lowest-ranked area? And then we're going to dig into that in the next quarter. So if it was communication, OK, how do we dig into that? Let's dig in more into communication. So we implemented regular pulse checks. We made sure we were having those company meetings. That is important. People want to feel like they're a part. Of the business and understand your direction. If people don't understand the direction, you're not going to stay.

How can they get to the destination if they have no map, right?

Exactly.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And if you want them to be engaged and actually care, they have to understand what they care about, right? Why am I doing this? What am I—

And how do I align with that too?

Yes.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. And I thought the most important thing with our company meetings is it showed you who were the key people in your organization. Because again, I don't get to walk around the hallway to say that I know who the CEO is, right? I know who the finance director is. And so what we really made a point was that it wasn't just our senior leadership that ran those meetings. We would ask employee level.

Oh, I really like that.

You are really— you know our product really well. You have a passion for this. Would you like to speak at the company meeting? So we have all levels of associates That's amazing. In our company meeting so that there's a different face on it. But I think the biggest thing that we did was we got rid of exit interviews. And you'd say, well, why would you get rid of the exit interview? Why are we waiting to ask people how they feel about us when they're out?

I love that.

So what did you change that with, Tisha?

We, we, we initially called it a stay interview, but now we're calling them anniversary calls. So we now meet with every single employee on their 30-day, on a 60-day, on a 90-day, on 180, and then on their 1-year anniversary, call and say, you made it to a year.

Woohoo! I love that. Celebrate.

Yes. And we send welcome cards when we have a new hire, but those have been so profound.

Oh, yeah.

And employees look forward to them. Oh, wow. And it's amazing what you hear on those calls, and they're 10 minutes. It doesn't have to be a 30-minute call. They're 10 minutes. Some of them are longer, but people really appreciate having someone— it's just their time to say, you know what, you made it through your 60 days. What's the struggle? Is this the job that you thought it was? Because that one we have found.

Yes, that is a really good one.

Yeah, that's a juicy one.

Yeah, so each level, each, um, check-in has a different set of questions, uh, just to make sure that we're digging into the right thing. And I can tell you, after that first year, I saw my retention go from 50% to 61%.

Wow, that's a big jump in one year. Yeah, yeah, in a year.

And I couldn't tell you what one thing did it, but I think just a combination.

Sounds like— yeah, it's like— it sounds like all of those things you were doing, um, really played a factor in that.

That's what I love, that you kind of kept refining to it, it sounds like. So like, this is working. We're no longer going to do exit interviews because why would we? They're, they're foots out the door at that point. And that's good information to know, but that's like, why are you staying and what can we do to help you stay? It's such a better refinement of that.

I love it. And I do think we were able to stop some people from leaving the door. Wow. You know, there's this one, I'm missing this resource or tool to do my job effectively and I was ready to resign. But now that I've told you and you got me that resource or tool, I'm going to stay.

I love that. I have a great example of that when I worked for McDade at Karen Naparco. I had given my notice because I felt like it was just time for me to move on. And she came to me and she said, what will it take for us to keep you here? And for me, it had nothing to do with money. It wasn't financially motivated at all because That's how it drives me. Yeah. And for me, I— so I laid out for her what I needed and what I wanted. And she put in an action plan for me. Now, of course, then we had all went to hell when Brocade decided to come in and take us. But that's OK. The fact that she saw something in me and that she felt like it was going to be important for McDade to hold on to me meant Everything to me. So when the transition happened in Brocade, when we were acquired, I stayed through the whole thing, right? I transitioned them all the way to the end because why wouldn't I stay and help make sure that everything went as according to plan and that, you know, the new employees were going to have a positive experience because I had. Yeah, that was it. Yeah, absolutely. It's that simple. Yep.

Yep.

Yeah.

And so that's why we, we just don't do, and we still don't do exit interviews. It was something. I went to the business and said, are you okay with getting rid of them? And I told them why. And they said, that makes sense.

Yeah.

Did you guys ever even do your own exit? Like when you left a company, did you even— I never filled it out because I'm like, why do you care what I think now?

You didn't.

So I never did. Yeah, exactly.

And is anything going to change? I remember leaving an organization and HR asked me to do an exit interview. And my first question to the person who was just doing what she was supposed to be doing, right? Can you tell me if this is even going to make a difference for the people that I feel like I'm leaving?

Behind?

Yes, absolutely.

And she was like, honestly, I don't think so. And I said, so I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste your time by doing a wasted interview.

Yeah. Or your time too. Your time is equally valuable.

You'd rather want to be a part of the change. It's kind of like when we all go to sell a house and you get it all nice and pretty and it's like, well, why did I just remodel for someone else to enjoy the fruit of my labor?

Yes. That's so true. Yeah.

I hear that all the time as we're about to redo our bedroom.

So I'm staying in this house. Yeah, you want to see it.

So that's right.

So 2023 was hard. It was hard because we had to take accountability, but it led us into a beautiful 2024.

If I can share about the Delta Principle, we are transforming the way you experience change. Have you ever experienced an organizational change where your employees pushed back because it was too much? Too fast, or they just didn't understand why they couldn't do things the way they've always done them? What about where communication was nonexistent or unorganized, with important updates getting lost in the shuffle, leaving people confused? And have you ever experienced change where morale was at an all-time low because a change felt overwhelming and not aligned with your organization's culture? If you are being Asked to lead an important organizational change, especially if you're new to leading change, or if you're just feeling overwhelmed, the Delta Principle is here to support you. We work closely with you as a trusted partner, co-creating real-world solutions to address your unique challenges, and we equip you and your organization for future success. Are you gearing up for your next transformation journey or exploring ways to strengthen your change management skills? Then let's connect. This year, we're thrilled to introduce Leading Change, a training designed for leaders driving organizational initiatives, and Navigating Change, a training tailored to empower teams in adapting to change with confidence. Our coaching and training sessions are fully customizable to meet your organization's unique needs. Reach out today to see how we can partner with with you to make your next change a success. You can find us on LinkedIn or by emailing us at info@thedeltaprinciple.com. Please share more about 2024, Tisha.

Year of the Leader. So what we were— we started getting really creative, by the way. I'm not creative, but I got creative. And Year of the Leader, we noticed in our surveys that we were starting to see feedback and in our interviews of employees felt like their leaders weren't connected. So, Linda, you know, your experience with Karen, you had a leader who was really digging in and asking questions. So we decided to focus on our leaders. So we implemented a grassroots training program. We went back to basics for a lot of things. How to use our timekeeping system because people were saying their time cards weren't correct. How to, you know, what is, what is it like to interview, the legal side of interviewing. So we just created I think it was 20 courses that our leaders could go through. Some were mandatory, some were not, but we really wanted to make sure that we had a really good leadership team because you said in the very beginning, 70%, if people don't leave companies, they leave leaders, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. So we took a step back and really dug into our leaders and And then what we did is we kicked off with the leadership survey. Talk about scary. And we asked some tough questions. You know, describe your leader's management style in a word. Describe your leader's communication style in a word. And I got that feedback to every single leader from our CEO.

I love that.

All the way down.

That's amazing. Hard sometimes to see that, right? To hear what people are saying. Yes, exactly, that looking in the mirror. Yeah.

And in my own survey, it's like, oh, They say that I'm at times too direct and I rattle off emails. So it was really like, okay, what am I going to do? So I sat with my team and said, I don't care who said it. It was about the what.

That's so true.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah.

Don't validate by the who. Think about the what and what can you do?

Yeah. And so our leaders really rolled up their sleeves in 2024. Such a great year for us. We also started asking at the end of every pulse check, how happy are you at work? So we created a happiness score, and so that's how we were able to gauge, um, how successful we were. I, I'm happy to tell you we ended 2024 with an 89% retention rate.

That's amazing.

Yeah, it went from 50 to 61 to 89.

89.

Even better than where you guys had been before.

Exactly. That's amazing. And I attribute it to our leadership team. They really took it seriously and said, hey, what can I do to help? And they did the classes and we gave them badges for completing. So they had virtual badges so that they could brag to their team like, hey, I'm at the gold level. I took all these classes. I love that.

Gameified it, which is such a great idea.

And I think the fact that you did that and then your leaders embraced it is also important for employees because a lot of organizations offer up leadership training that nobody ever takes, right? So HR puts all this effort. They bring these programs forward, and then nobody ever takes them. And if you mandate them, that doesn't get the results you're looking for. Exactly. And so I love that you did that and that they took pride in that as well. Because then that, as an employee, I look at that and say, OK, they're vested. They're really trying. I want to try harder too. I see my leader doing this. I see the changes that they're making. It all ties back to that engagement, right? Because then we're all engaged in what's happening.

We're all engaged. And employees could hold their leaders accountable.

We talked about it.

Company meeting. They're going through training. You should be seeing some changes in certain areas. And what we did is we decided— again, this is not just HR— so we asked the CFO. He did a course on fraud and how to look at fraud in ours because we have a— we do credit cards. We asked one of our leaders who's really good at goal setting. She did a goal setting training for us.

That's amazing.

Our training director who is in the call center, she did a class on how to run an effective meeting. So we asked other leaders and like to also teach courses. And it was so well received. And so along with our 89% retention, we also had a 4.2 happiness.

Oh, wow.

For our employees on a scale of 5.

I'm so curious about the happiness rating because to me, happiness is subjective. So how did you make it more tangible and more quantitative?

You know, that's the part we're still working on, Cindy, to be honest with you. So we just asked the question, how happy are you at work? Work today? So in this very moment, how happy are you? Now, for a few of our surveys, we did drill down depending on the topic. So it's how happy are you with your benefits? How happy are you with your resources and tools for your team? So that's how we've tried to quantify it. I will tell you, I haven't asked how happy you are with your compensation because that's a whole nother—

Oh yeah, yeah, those ones you're never gonna— no one's ever happy with their compensation. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's so smart though. Don't ask the question if you're not yet ready to do something with the response.

Oh, I couldn't agree more with you, Cindy. Yeah, you see that all the time with organizations. They'll do that, and then they might even make a lot of promises around what they're going to do. Because when pay equity or equity was the hot topic a few years ago, like, you know, that was being talked about all over, a lot of organizations were talking about it, and some of them even said they were going to put some effort in into it. The problem behind that is that is, to your point, Tisha, that compensation's hard because it requires money. And so there's budget associated with that. And how do you— like, let's find— let's say you do an equity survey and you find that your employees are below that. Do you have the ability to put the budget in place to then get them up? And what process are you going to go through so it's fair and equitable? Like, I think people sometimes misunderstand just how complex compensation can be. And so The fact that I love what you said there, Cindy, like, don't ask questions you're not ready to address yet. So that's, that's wonderful. Yeah.

You're asking great questions, Tisha.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

And when you do those pulse checks and surveys, what we held ourselves accountable, we being the leadership team, is we're going to do action plans.

Yeah. I like that.

You have to show your employees that you heard them. Yes.

Yes.

What you're going to do about it. And so we would do that at the company meeting. So Linda, compensation did come up many times. So we had one of our executives, because again, this is not just HR, right? One of our executives got on screen and talked about this is how we do compensation here. This is why we don't do a COLA, and this is the difference. So we're really trying to just be honest, more transparent, and very transparent about it. And so I think people value that. The answer is not the answer they wanted. No, Cindy, you're not getting a 50% raise. But then you know why, you understand why and how budgets work and that we need to hit certain goals. And so we really did try to keep it very transparent and to make sure that they knew they were heard.

I like that.

I love what you're saying too, because it is such a shift. What you're talking about, you know, the word revolutionary might be like too big a word, but I just, I love what you guys are doing and you're really looking at the way that you lead, the way that your employees, your associates' happiness— huge, because that is why they stay as well. But, but you're starting with the leaders. And once you start to see that momentum, like you said, Tisha, like getting people involved in doing some of the training. What are you passionate about, leader? Great. Let's have you do training on that for your, your colleagues. Starts to align leaders start to, you know, and associates at all levels start to see that. And so that change curve starts to, you know, the momentum starts to go.

So yeah, it's really important.

And it has employees who are now interested in leadership. So we were posting leadership roles in 2022 and people weren't applying, right? And we're like, why? This is a raise. But I think they just felt like their leadership had maybe disappointed in in the past, but now, I mean, we get 10 internal interview, you know, applicants for a role because they see that we're doing something really good to help grow our leaders.

To support your leaders, yeah.

Because that's the hardest transition a person can make is to go from peer to leader.

Yes, yes, it is.

And so we really wanted to make sure that we were buying into that. So leadership training will be ongoing for us. It's something that we're going to continue into this year because we feel like it's something really important. But we also believe that your growth is your own.

Yes. And that is such an important point. I love that you said that too, because I do think that there is a lot of times employees put a lot of pressure on their managers, on HR, on the leadership for everything to satisfy all of their needs and wants, and that it's somehow your responsibility. But it isn't. It's your personal responsibility in all of that as well. Right. And you have to be actively engaged in your own growth and what you want and asking those questions. So I love that you said that.

Yeah. So, this year we're doing a culture of learning. So we're implementing an LMS. And so we really have told our— because we heard that again on the pulse checks, people want to grow. But what we've done is we've made sure that our employees understand that growth doesn't always mean you get a new title and you get new money. Growth is sometimes new skills that you're getting. Growth is lateral as well, but we really want to make sure that our employees understand that growth is an inside job. So we think that that LMS that we're implementing will really help and we're going to have pathways that employees can choose. So, if I'm in marketing and now I want to be in finance, I can go into the finance pathway and understand what are the key skills that are required for a finance person and then we'll do a personal development plan to help you get there so that when that job opens, you will be in a better position to apply for it. So, it's ongoing. I mean, every, every day we're learning something different that we need to do. As we're on this engagement and retention path, but we're sticking with it. And so much so that we have had a people goal for the past 2 years. So in '24, we had retention and we shared that with employees. For '25, it will be our happiness score. I love that. So we want to make sure that, you know, we have a goal that we'd love to get to 4.4. And so we are putting some skin in the game as a leadership team that we're going to do all that we can to get to 4.4.

So I love that.

Great. And you've got— going back to earlier when you talked about data, Tisha, I think that's so smart because you guys have all that information now and you can say, you know, here's what people are looking for when it comes to their happiness. So kind of combining the onboarding experience, doing the pulse checks, doing the anniversary, you know, check-ins, and then now having these happiness scores, you can kind of put all that together and say, Here's how we can get to that 4.4.

Yeah.

And so I love that approach too, that you guys have all that.

Because we did put it all together in a report we call the Pulse Check Report. We give that to leaders. We were doing monthly, we're going to quarterly. That puts all of that in one nice report that we post on a leadership portal where they can go at any time. You will know what our turnover is. You will know what employees left and why they left. Yeah. You will know what people have transferred to a new role, and you will know what our happiness score is. So we've tried to give that to our leaders so that it's top of mind at all times. Yeah.

I like that because you're empowering the managers as well, because I do think that sometimes in organizations, especially the middle layer of management, right, because you've got like your C-suite who have one set of responsibility, and then you have kind of like that middle level of management that is really responsible for the day-to-day and the interaction with employees, but oftentimes they can be the most disconnected from what's going on and helping guide their employees. Or sometimes they might feel like they're the most disconnected because maybe they're not a part of the decision-making process. And so they feel like, well, how am I supposed to help my employees at all when I don't know why we're doing what we're doing type of thing? And so I think it really is challenging. So the fact that you're engaging all levels of the organization and engaging them I think it's so important, and it's really important for managers to understand their employees because I'm sure, and I know for the two of you, this is true. How many times in your career did you have a manager who wanted you to handle the performance issues? Or even if you had to maybe put someone on a performance improvement plan, they wanted you to do that, right? And they wanted you to have those conversations because we didn't give our managers the skills to know how to do those things.

So we did a difficult conversations class, Linda, for that reason.

Love it. Yeah.

Yeah. But it's also, I think, along those lines of what you said, I think HR needs to understand the business as well. So, yes, I encourage, you know, members of my team, go to their team meetings, go to their huddles, hear what their pain points are. Yeah. And ask them. Yeah. Build a relationship with, you know, the marketing director, because then you can understand what their pain points are. Why do they need to keep hiring or are they losing people? And so I think HR also owns that you need to understand the business at least at a higher level so that we can help come with some solutions.

I love that.

And we've, we've talked about that before too, Linda. You know, even like back in our McData days, the group that I was supporting as an HR business partner was manufacturing. And so I asked Dave Weishauer, who was the VP of manufacturing at that time, can I sit in on your meetings so I can have a better understanding, so I know more, so I can do better, you know? And he was like, absolutely, you know, Tuesdays at 9:00, come to our meeting.

Yeah.

And, you know, at the end of the quarter, then, you know, I would go down and help them to clean, you know, the, the directors and things like that, what we were producing, what we were manufacturing. So I had a better sense of a day in the life of. Something back to what you were saying too, Tisha, is I think as managers, we sometimes— you talked about, you go from a peer maybe to a leadership person, a leadership role, whether that's a manager, whether that's C-suite, whatever it happens to be. We sometimes— I like to remind leaders, you need to put on your oxygen mask ask first. It's like when you get on a plane, right? You cannot help the people surrounding you if you're not taking care of yourself first. So I love the accountability of take these classes. Some are required, some might not be, but immerse yourself in how can I be the best that I can be, and then I can support my team. Whether you're a manager or C-suite, whatever the, the role is that that you're in to support your associates, you first have to take care of, of yourself.

Yeah. And be honest with where your shortcomings are, right? I mean, no one teaches us how to be a leader.

No, I'm not.

No, no. People are born a leader, and handling people is difficult because you don't want to treat them like your children.

No.

But you also want to give autonomy. And so, you know, writing down and being really honest with yourself, okay, where Am I not really strong?

Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm not going to tap into peers maybe to balance me out.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I like that for sure. You know what else I like about everything that you've said today too is that you've not talked one bit about how, well, we went out and we bought this new software and that was going to solve all of our problems. You know what I love about everything you said is that it was focused in on you know, self-awareness, self-reflection, understanding the people sides of it. And while I'm sure somewhere along the line maybe you implement some solutions, but never once was it about that the technology was somehow going to happen. And I do think that that happens a lot of times in organizations, is there's this belief that if we buy this new piece of technology, it's going to fix what's broken.

Yeah.

And it's never the technology that fixes it, right? It's, that's just a tool. It is the, it's all of the things that, like Cindy, what you do from leading change, and Tisha, what you're doing from leading in the HR environment and really focused in on that. So I love that it was all about the people, the processes. What are we doing well? What aren't we doing? Yeah.

No money up until I bought the LMS, which was at the end of last year. It cost us zero.

Oh my, what a great message for everyone to hear because so often That's, oh, well, we can't do that because of budgets. We can't do that because we have no money. You are living proof that that's not true.

No money. Yeah.

But what did it save you? Like, how— what is the cost of losing good people? And I always say, you know, those who can swim the best are going to jump ship first. So what are— how much did you save the organization by doing that?

With retention. Yeah. Especially with 50% retention. I mean, it costs a lot of money to turn employees.

So yeah, they say anywhere from what, $5,000 to $10,000, if not more, per person. Yeah, we were losing a lot, but it cost me no money to do that. Was it time? Yeah, it was time-consuming. There were some sleepless nights of trying to figure this out, but I was, you know, so grateful that I was able to, with our leadership team, do some things that didn't have to hit the budget.

Right.

So then when it was time to hit the budget with my LMS, they were more inclined to say, you know what, let's do this.

Yes.

That's a really good call out, Linda. I love that you said that. And so if we could ask you, we always like to give actionable takeaways, Tisha. If there were some things that you could recommend, I mean, there's so many gold nuggets in what you've shared with us today. So thank you again for being here.

This has been fun.

I love the way that you've, you know, what you've all done. Linda and I, you know, again, revolutionary might be too strong a word, but not, not really.

No, not really.

Yeah.

So what are some actionable things if I am an HR leader or if I'm a leader of any kind in an organization, what could I do to start this ball rolling? Because obviously this didn't all happen overnight.

Yeah, great question.

What could I start doing?

Well, I'm going to take one from you, Cindy. Put on your oxygen mask first. Right? You've got to— I like that. This will be a ride. And so maybe it's your seatbelt. I think look at your data because as we've been talking, you know, this one came to me. How many of us have an HRMS that has hundreds of reports and we don't use them?

Right? Yep.

Yeah. So I think dig into the data.

Yeah, exactly. So dig into the data.

What is the data telling you? Once you do that, I would recommend starting with your onboarding process. Because are you just doing an orientation where you're checking a box, you know, doing your housekeeping, or are you really onboarding employees and making sure that you're setting them up for success from day one?

Yeah, I love that.

That includes continuous follow-up with them. And I believe that you should follow them at least their first year and then every year thereafter. But that's just the way that we do. I think ask your employees. I told you we do polls. Who better to find out what is needed than the employees? So I think ask your employees. And I have a whole database base of pulse check questions we've asked. I'm happy to share that with any of your viewers and listeners.

Awesome, thank you.

But I believe that employees are your most important asset, so you should, you should definitely go to them. And I think the most important piece is this is not an HR issue. Yeah, it's a company issue. So if you want to make sure that you have engaged employees to keep them around, then you have to get all of those key stakeholders involved and get their opinions and thoughts so that you can solve the problem as a team. So I think this is really a team effort. So those would be the actual takeaways.

So good.

Yeah.

I so appreciate everything that you brought to the conversation today, Tisha. Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's been so good for Linda and I to get to reconnect with you.

Yes. It's always good to see old friends. Yeah.

Yeah.

So if people do want to reach out to you, we'll put your contact information, of course, in the post, but is— are there different ways that you would like —like for people to get in touch with you, Tisha?

Yeah, I think LinkedIn is going to be the best way to get in touch with me. And I'd love to connect with folks and share some best practices. I want to learn from other people. What have they done as I'm now taking this, you know, culture of learning? That one's not a good one. I guess it's the year of the culture of learning for Generation I. So, you know, I definitely want to connect with folks. But, you know, this is a really important topic, and I think we all can learn from each other. I agree. I love that.

Well, and for our listeners, just so you know, we are— Cindy and I have a— we talked a lot about data today. We have an episode coming up here in this season where we're actually bringing in a data analyst who's an expert in HR data. And she's going to talk to all of you about how you can— to Tisha's point, how many of you have systems out there that you have all this information, you have no idea what to do with it or how to get it out. And she's going to talk about that. So we'll hope you tune in for that episode. But, um, yeah, we have loved having you here. I agree with you. It's always— it's just so wonderful to see you and, um, to just recognize what amazing things you've done throughout your life.

Yeah. Congratulations to you and to all your leaders. That's absolutely— and thank you for sharing all of that so openly with us. We, you know, I'm sure our community is going to get a lot out of this. Absolutely.

Absolutely. We learn best from each other, right? Yeah. This has been great.

So remember, don't avoid the hard stuff. Everything you want. I love it. It comes all the way back around, doesn't it?

Yeah, it does. Yes, it does.

It's all on the other side of hard. It'll be totally worth it. That's fantastic.

Well, thank you again, Cindy. As always, it's great to be here with you. Tisha, it's so good to see you again. And we'll look forward to having you back. We want to have you back so we can hear about how this year went. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We'll do a reflect back. So, yeah, that'll be wonderful. Great idea. We hope everyone has a wonderful day and— Stay warm. —thanks for tuning in. Yes, stay warm if you're here. All right.

Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of the HR Her Resources Podcast. We're so happy to have you with us on this journey. Music and production by Logan Misigaitis of LJM Productions. We'd also like to thank our intern, Lauren Banas, for creating our logo and supporting our social media postings. If you'd like to connect with Logan Megan or Lauren, you can find their information in the show notes. If you found value in our discussion and think someone else might as well, please follow and subscribe to our LinkedIn and share with a friend. Until our next episode, please take care and continue to support one another.