Pamela Winslow Kashani & Tim Kashani on Writing a Musical | Story and Music

What do you get when you have a Broadway professional and a camera crew? Long story short, you get a lot of cool info when you get Showbiz U Luminaries.

Hello, I'm Pamela Winslow Kashani, co-founder of Apples and Oranges Arts, producer, actor, and composer.

And I'm Tim Kashani, co-founder of Apples and Oranges Arts, producer, director, and writer. In our theater accelerator, a lot of people ask us about the writing process. How does the writing process begin?

I think it's a very personal thing for people, and I use my acting background to think of what characters would be saying and what would be coming out of their mouth in this emotional moment. First thing to do before you write any song is figure out why you're writing it. So you need a structure, and that's what we do together, is get the structure of a script going, because we are talking about musicals, and not just a nebulous song that would be living with itself somewhere in the ether. It has to be grounded into why is it happening then, what purpose does it serve, and is it pushing the energy forward of the show. So once you have the reason for the song, then you can start going into words. I'm generally the composer and lyricist, and you're generally the writer, and so I usually rely on you to give me structure. Can you talk about how you do that?

Sure, every team has their own way of approaching it. And some teams, as you know very well, the composer just writes the music and then the book writer writes the book and the lyrics. We do a hybrid of that in the sense that you definitely write the lyrics and the music, but it jumps off of a structure that's been put in place. And what's worked for us for a while is we first start with an idea that we flesh out together. And we talk through the characters, we talk through the overall arc of the story, and we get a sense for where this piece needs to go. Then it goes into an outline form, and then we beat up the outline and we vet it and we figure out, are we truthful? Are we telling the story in a way that makes sense? When we get to the point where we're actually starting to write the book, set it up. I like to open up Final Draft and just get a beginning and end. That way I know, all right, I've got a starting point and this is going to end at some point. And then I tend to start with scenes near the end of the show because I've read a number of scripts personally where I feel like it has this great setup, but then wah-wah as you get into the second act and it didn't know where it wants to go. And if I know where the show wants to end, then I can plant things in the beginning of the show to get me there. And once I have that structure based on the outline that we've done and the ending feels authentic, Then I start to write dialogue, and I usually write it as if it's a film first, not even worrying about the musical. That way I can know what needs to come out. And then I take the heightened emotional moments in that scene, and word of advice to anybody, if there are no heightened emotional moments, it's probably exposition and you need to go back and look at it, right? And I say, okay, this is what needs to touch people emotionally. That needs to come either through dance or through a song. And then if it's in a song, I make up a title for what I feel we want them to walk away with thematically or something related to it, which you usually change, but at least it gives you some entry point.

I was going to say throw out.

But at least it shows you where my head is at and where we start from there. And then I In the lyric font structure that you have in Final Draft, I write the— this is what the character needs to get across when they are singing. And they're effectively glorified bullet points, meaning I'm not trying to wax poetic and attempt to write lyrics. It's this is where they are at the beginning of the song, middle, and maybe the end. And sometimes I will put in there too, what is it that we want the audience to feel feel. And that's more of a hey, take it or leave it type thing for you to look at. But when these build on each other, as you start to read the script through, you then go, oh, okay, I see where we're going here in this number and there in that number. And then you take it away. So why don't you talk a little bit about what you do, and then we'll talk about how we fold it back in.

Yeah, I get your script after we've ideated the concept and we've We've bashed out the outline relentlessly before we get to the script point. We do that together. And so by the point that I get a script, I know the characters very, very well. I know their motivations very, very well. So I wouldn't start writing any music until I feel that way, until I feel like I really know who these people are and what they want. And so hopefully by the point that I get this first draft and I get your paragraphs, which are very useful to me, where you were saying your bullet points of what needs to happen emotionally in the song. You're not putting lyrics to the page because I want to save that for me, but what you do is you get me thinking in the right way. And so then I take those ideas, I read it through a lot. Usually I will I will simply take the paragraph before the song begins or the half page of dialogue before the song begins, the setup, and then what's happening right after the song, and I will just put it in a Word document and I'll stare at it for a long period of time. And then I let my imagination run wild at this point, and no idea is stupid. And I've had to really work to not censor myself at this point. I write down everything. I stream of consciousness write every lyric that comes to my mind, and I just freeform it all out. I just vomit it out. And then usually I'll take a little break, I'll come back, I'll look at all this stuff, and it's just this mishmash of stuff. But within that, there might be a phrase that has a certain scansion that I feel like is a might be a hook, might catch, might be a melody line. And if I can find something like that, I'll toy with that for a while and I'll play with it. And if it feels like it could go somewhere, I'll stick with it. And if it feels like it's not going somewhere, then I'll keep looking in my— in my— just my brain dump that I have. And that's, that's sort of how I start. And then once I get that hook, that connection to either what the verse is about, but usually it's what is coming in the chorus. It's what that— that just that irresistible connection between melody and word. If I can find that, then I'm on to something, and then I roll. So then I don't look at my brain dump much anymore. Then from there, I start structuring scansion and stanzas and, and verses and choruses and bridges and things like that. And then I start opening up Logic. So I used to work in Finale and play everything out on a piano and then sort of put it into Finale. But now there's a part of me that enjoys the abstractness of being in Logic with colorful shapes. And for some reason, I like doing stuff like that where I put stuff out from a— in my horrible piano playing. It's okay, it's not horrible, but I can get a melody out and then in Logic I can layer it and get a feel for it so I can quickly get a feeling for what the song is and a style rather than when I'm in Finale it's more in my mind and it's more notes. So that's what I've been doing lately and then eventually it becomes a full-blown song and then I see how long it is, do I need to edit it, do I need to make it shorter, longer. Do I need an extra course there or not? And then it's sort of out for its first flight out into the world where I'll show it to you. And then as we do, we just give each other notes. And so you may say, this is working really well for me. You might say, this is not working at all for me. And both of those things have happened. And then we go on from there.

And just the amount of pre-work that we do too helps it. And there's never these huge surprises as far as what's happening. And you will say to me, for example, if there's a song that I've set up that you want to go a different way on, you'll— we'll usually talk about it first. Then occasionally you'll say, you know what, I didn't follow what was in there and here's why.

Yeah. And that just happened. We are writing this new show for the Discovery Science Center right now, and it's in its very fledgling stages. And you wrote your wonderful paragraph for me, which gives me my roadmap, and it wasn't the same roadmap that was happening in my head. And so I jettisoned your roadmap and I wrote my own number. But as it turned out, it really did have a lot of the same elements of what you were saying. It just wasn't my way in. So I found a different way in. But ended up solving the problem for the story in a different way, but in a way that satisfied what you needed to.

And you also pulled in some elements that were going to happen later in the story in that moment when you did it that way, which was fine because we knew we needed to get these beats across.

Right.

And therefore, just because they're happening earlier wasn't a problem. In fact, in a lot of ways it was better because it was having the character enter with more strength. And then when I get a song back, it's always an interesting point the first time you listen to a song because, well, A, it's just exciting because you're hearing something brand new for the first time. That's one of the coolest things about doing new musicals. I always just let it kind of flow through before even commenting on it because with songs you can't always be in the left side of your brain. You've got to see how does that make you feel. And it is sometimes hard when it's isolated from what's coming before or after in the scene or before or after in the song. And I always listen for authenticity too, is anything that the character is singing, does that feel to me out of character of what I feel the character would be saying rather than singing? And sometimes there are those moments, very often they're not. Usually it's lined up to, it's a fairly seamless lead-in and lead-out. And in those moments I'll usually say, "That line right there," and I know sometimes it's because it's the perfect rhyme, but is, "Can we say it a different way because I would see the character saying it in another way?" And most of the time you're like, "Oh yeah, that's no problem. That's a single word.

We can make a change to that." And then sometimes there are points in a song, or when you're looking at the bullet points of what needs to be accomplished, there might be a chunk of maybe exposition that needs to get in there that's really, really important, but it doesn't lend itself to poetry necessarily. And sometimes I found that I've wrestled with things like that where the terminology is too technical or too left-brainy to make sense in lyrics. And I've had to say, well, maybe we have to then do it in dialogue. And then I will put dialogue in, sandwich it in between the song, and that makes more sense. So I just have to honor what the words are wanting. Are they wanting to be rhymed every other stanza, or they want to be just more natural. And also, if it's too technical, it doesn't make sense in a song.

And then our agreement is, if it's anything music or lyrics, you have the final say. And if it's dialogue, then I can go in and I have the final say. It's a way that we can make sure that we feel comfortable with what we've both done, right? We work on something and we think it feels really good, and now we need to hear it, right? And we get people around a table and we've done every incarnation. Sometimes they learn the music and many times you'll just sing the songs. That way we don't have to spend a lot of hours teaching somebody the music.

I have spent many readings where I've sung every single character for a 2.5-hour show.

And actually, this goes to— we will sometimes read a script without any music in it. In fact, we just did that recently. With the current piece. And if the people are able to connect with the story without having the songs in it, then when the songs come in, then it just jumps off the page. And we did this with a show, and we're about to now share it with people, and they'll get to hear the music in it. And I can't wait to hear the reaction because the music is really good that you created.

Thank you.

But it's also good to strip out the music at some point because it it exposes weaknesses in a script. And by having these emotional areas that are going to take place in the song, if it is too intellectual in the song, then that's most of the time a red flag that, ah, we're just trying to talk too much. Of course, some genre where it's more of an operetta where everything takes place in song, that's a little bit different, but that's not the type of thing that we we tend to write, everything boils down to choices and decisions and key moments of conflict. Or if you use Hero's Journey, where are you in this character's lowest point or this character's highest point? And by having that pulse, how does that help you when you're even thinking about rhythm, minor, major, tonality, all of the musical tools that you have?

Oh, it's It affects me immensely to know, is this the moment where there's transformation? Is this how— if this is important, it's going to be a little bit slower and more stately, and it's going to take its time. If it's a noise number where you're just having a whole bunch of fun, you just want to find a really great beat underneath that people can really jump onto, and it's tasty to your ear, and then you can layer on top all the concepts and the themes and the— what the characters are doing in the song. But you— if it doesn't sound great and if it doesn't have a great pulse to it, it's not going to be a good noise number. So yes, it completely affects the type of musical mood that you want to create and Sometimes I do get inspired by other songs or pre-existing songs, or I will listen to a song that I think is in the same wheelhouse as what I want to write, but then I have to— I only listen to it once and then I go away from it, and then I think, well, what? Because I don't want to copy anything, I just want to get a sense. Well, maybe that was in 3/4 time.

Does 3/4 time work What's it like to hear somebody sing your music?

Oh, I love it. I love it. It's very, very moving to hear people sing my music.

What excites you about the art form and what's happening story-wise, but even in your world, like I said, what excites you about musically about what's happening right now?

Back in the day, in the '40s and '50s, the music of Broadway was the music of the radio. It was the popular music of the time, and it was the best music of the time. And now there's— it hasn't been like that really ever since. There's been Broadway music, and then there's been popular music. And I love the Broadway pop sound that's coming out now. I guess I really am crushing on Pasek and Paul because they speak to me, because I feel like they have prosody between what they're saying and the sound of the song. It just melds so, so well together, and it's a sound that you could hear on the radio and, and love to hear over and over again. I personally like that sound better than the sounds that I listen to on the radio stations that are playing the pop sounds now. So my dream would be would this sound then take over and be the sound that everybody listens to all the time? Because to me, it's— it brings me so much joy. I love that contemporary Broadway sound, and that's what I generally try to aspire to write. But then there are times that I do something different because the piece calls for something different.

One part too is I know when I write, I like to get struck. I feel, I feel more comfortable when structure is there first, and my first draft of something tends to be more literal just to make sure that boxes are being checked. Mm-hmm. It drives me crazy sometimes. We'll go see a show, something happens in the first act that never, never gets paid off, or something happens in the second act. Where did that come from? Therefore, I like to have all those down. In fact, I keep I— when we do our outline, we tend to just do it in Word rather than index cards, and whatever works for people is great, but that to me gives me a nice structure for each beat that we have. And I actually keep a separate Excel spreadsheet with just key moments or key things about— sometimes it might be about a prop, sometimes it might be about something that the character needs to do, and I'll refer back to that just to make sure that I'm being authentic to to some key element of it. And then we do, in that process, and we've created this template that we've shared with people about what are the different aspects we need to be aware of? What is the time of the show? What is the tone of the show? What is the theme? That's the number one thing we start with is what kind of story are we trying to tell? And then we get into each character Where they are today, what got them to this place, what is the conflict, what are the decisions, all of those things. That's all the technical stuff that I like to get through. Then when we do a table read of it, I always like to start with, well, hey, we just want to hear general thoughts. But once we hear the general thoughts, I get into, was anything confusing? And they'll say, oh, well, this person, I don't know why they did this, or da da da. Now, in the back of my mind, I know exactly why they did it, and I could even say, "Well, that's cell 33 in Excel. It says it right there." But obviously it didn't work if they didn't get it because they're the first time they're hearing it. People say, "Well, where does the idea come from?" And then the idea, then we talked about the importance of the theme. I know for me, ultimately, it's what I believe, hence the a theme that I want to share, not beat somebody over the head with. So I want to create something that's entertaining. And I love— one thing that I love so much is at the end of a show or an end of a reading when people are arguing about exactly what the character happens next in your show, or maybe what they learned. If they're arguing about what it's about, you're in trouble. But if they've skin-jumped or empathized and made it their own, they're going to bring their own theme to the show. In fact, when we did Higher Education in Orlando, I talked to 3 different people and they personalized it at the end. They said, "Oh, I know what you were going for. I went through the same thing that the character went through and this is—" And they made this whole story up and I'm just shaking my head thinking, I really wasn't thinking about that, but I'm glad that's how you personally explored what happened. It was still the same essence and the same theme, but they made it their own. Right.

And another thought on theme is if you don't love your theme, then don't write that show because the theme has to resonate with you very deeply. And a lot of times with the shows that we write, It boils down to things that we really care about. Family. We really care about our unit with our son and that kind of theme really resonates with me. Or finding your passion. A lot of times that's a theme in what we write because it's something that we really care about in real life. And for example, You wrote Higher Education, meaning that you, you wrote the story of higher education first and brought it to me. And I don't necessarily go for the type of entertainment that you go for. You like a lot of the science fiction-y type stories, and there's a bit of science fiction in this story. That's not necessarily my go-to, but what drew me in was the themes of a person who is trying so hard to put a square peg in a round hole in her life that she's not really seeing what's truly important. And I see that all around me in my real life, and it's something that resonates with me. So if I didn't feel that way, I wouldn't be now writing the show and rewriting the show with you. So I feel like the theme is truly important. To really be passionate about before you move forward.

If you found this information useful, please subscribe to our channel. It'll help build our community for storytellers in the future.