Are Race Boots Just For Elite Skiers?

And you wonder why as an instructor you keep banging the same feedback to people. Flex your ankles more, get more forward. But if I stood in that boot and that setup, I can tell you I would have my body upright. I'd have my knees not, not over my toes, because if I did that in this setup, I would literally be falling forward. My heels would be pulling out of my boots. Selecting the right pair of ski boots is possibly one of the most important decisions you can make in your skiing career. Now, on this episode of the Big Picture Skiing Podcast, I want to help you, along with my guest Lou Rosenfeld, with giving you more information about selecting a great pair of ski boots. So in this episode today, we're going to cover things like race boots and whether that is something just for the elite, or if you'll take Lou's perspective, is actually a great decision or is actually a great choice for many other levels of skier. We also get into kids' ski boots, as well as looking at angles in a ski boot and how that affects your ski stance. Now, if taking a deep dive into skiing technique, ski equipment, everything about skiing is up your alley, then I invite you to check out bigpictureskiing.com, the website and app. I have hundreds of videos. There's an ever-growing video library on everything that I think about and learn about skiing that helps you become a better skier. So go check it out. There's a 7-day free trial. All right, let's get into this episode with Lew Rosenfeld on ski boots. All right, we have Lew Rosenfeld. Back on the podcast. Now, just for some context here, Lou has previously owned a ski shop, really successful one, fitting many thousands of skiers into ski boots. He's also got a master's in biomechanics, has done some extensive research on binding position and the effects on ski performance. And many of these topics we've actually discussed in, uh, in previous podcasts, and they've actually been some of the listeners' most favorite, Lou, are these binding position ones. People still keep finding it and discovering it today, which, which is great. Yeah, it's really cool. But we're not going to talk about binding position today. You got in touch with me because you are teaching skiing to, uh, the people in Sun Valley. Is that correct?

I'm teaching in Sun Valley. I closed my store a year and a half ago. I'm part of Sun Valley Ski School. I've heard a few different podcasts. I'm still in— I'm teaching boot fitting to the ski school. I'm teaching binding position and performance settings to ski school. But I've heard a few things online recently about how people shouldn't use boots that are labeled race boots and other things. And I, yeah, I don't agree with that. So I thought I'd call you and see where you were on that and maybe we could put something together and change some people's minds.

Yeah, that's right. Because with the, the aim, just as you're listening here, the aim is to just give you information that you can then make a good informed decision about. That's, that's all we want to do. We don't want to try and make more people do something or whatever. We're trying to ultimately help you find the best setup that works for you. So yes, the, let's get stuck into this. So why don't you start with, um, maybe sort of what is classified typically as a race boot and then your thoughts on, you know, why that shouldn't be a scary thought, or just 'cause you don't race, that's not the boot for you.

Okay. That's easy. Almost all manufacturers make, if we just talk about the way boots are described without using the label, we would say they're made everywhere from a 92 or 93mm wide boot, and we would call that a 92 or 93mm lasted boot, right? And that's, how wide it is at the forefoot in millimeters in a size 26. And they're made all the way from a 92, 93 up to about 106 millimeters. And the 106 millimeters is a big canoe of a boot for either renting or, or just the widest gargantuan foot on the planet. And a 92, 93 is a, is a narrow boot. And, and unfortunately, and that's why you and I are having this conversation, I think we would often call that a race boot. 92, 93s are called race boots. 95s are called race boots. And for most manufacturers, 98mm boots would be called a recreational race boot. And the boots narrower than that would be called World Cup race boots or plug boots. But I think we shouldn't use that vernacular, and I like just calling them 98mm boots and yes, be done with it.

But if you are gonna look, if people are gonna look this up, you're probably gonna find people will understand what you're asking for if you say, I'm looking at going into a race boot. But Lou's trying to point out typically the, the width is kind of what categorizes a boot into that section. So if you have a narrower foot, Uh, you, um, you're possibly looking there. Now that, that brings up this, this next point. So why are we suggesting you kind of look into this territory, these narrow boots? Well, I think you and I both agree you— we want a snug fit, and a snug fit that, that is snug everywhere. We're talking like along the side of the arch of the foot, along the side of the lateral arch, around the heel, most places, so you have control. So If we go into this boot, Lou, how is that gonna help us get this ideal snug fit?

Well, the narrower boot is narrower everywhere. So we talk about it being 92mm wide at the forefoot versus maybe 104mm wide at the forefoot. But the boot isn't just made narrower to 92 at the forefoot, the entire boot, every part of it, the ankle, the heel, Everywhere on the boot is narrower. So if we used a different word and used the word volume, that 92mm boot is just smaller everywhere. It's closer to your foot on virtually every dimension. So it means that my foot doesn't beat around inside the boot when I'm going fast, maybe on icy terrain and my skis are vibrating. My foot isn't— I don't feel like my skis are moving all around and my foot is just you know, is just in there loose. Everything I do is transmitted immediately to my skis, and, and I have more control over my skis because they're not— my ski boot combination isn't moving around my foot. Yeah, right.

Yes. And so if we're gonna, like, maybe let's talk about some personal stories, because now you're back teaching, and we were just before the show started you're noticing some things. Do you want to talk about the level of ski you, you're sort of teaching and then what you're seeing and why? Yeah, if you had your shop open, you'd maybe take them in and suggest something different. Yeah, sure.

Well, I'm teaching people now of all different levels, but mostly in ski school, it— I would and it may be different everywhere, but mostly it's intermediate skiers and either never evers. So not begin— not intermediates, beginners or intermediate skiers. A lot of them either don't own their own, own their own gear. They've just come out here for a holiday and, and they're renting. And a rental boot is automatically by definition, the biggest boot the ski industry makes. And, uh, or they've owned their own gear, but they've gone into a store and said, I'm a beginner skier, I'm an intermediate skier. And someone said, well, I've got a boot for you. And the label we assigned to beginner intermediate boots is they're wide boots, right? There, there's no such thing as, as a wide boot that we would also call a race boot. Yeah. Right. And there's no such thing as, as a beginner boot that we would, that turns out to be really narrow.

Yeah.

Right. So people come in and, and, and they're just in huge boots.

Right.

And not only are, is the volume too big, but they're often too long. But that's, that's a separate discussion, right?

Yeah.

But, But the boot's too big and, and everything.

And the geometry, geometry often is really upright.

Well, that's one thing. Yeah. Beginner boots say it's all the same. Beginner boots are made more upright than, than a boot we would call a race boot, which has more forward lean and lets you more easily stand in, in a proper athletic position. Right. The other thing I noticed a long, long time ago is that beginner intermediate boots, it also goes by price, right? There's no $900 boots in my country. I don't know prices where you are, but you know, there's no $900 boots that we would call beginner intermediate boot. And, and there's no boots we would call race boot that are available for $350. Right. So, so the price goes up as, as boots get narrower and as we describe the performance differently. But I've been in boots that we would call beginner boots with a really low flex number, like 90, which would be, should be soft for virtually any man. And I've put them on my foot and, and they feel like a brick. I mean, they're as stiff as, the performance boots I'm skiing now. So that what happens is because they're so upright and because they're inexpensive, the parts don't fit right and the boots really just don't work right. So even though you're in a boot that may be a 90 flex, it's, it's not flexible, right? You just—

yeah.

As you commented in our conversation, you can't get forward on the boot. You can't. It starts out being very straight up and down, so it doesn't encourage you to get into athletic position, and then when you try to, the boot turns out to be so stiff despite the number that you can't move it anyway.

Yeah, that's, that's exactly what I've been seeing and, uh, sort of trying to help some online academy students through this online ski school I have with. And often we'll say go through— well, I'll give you one example. Partway through the season, This guy, he's working really well, suggesting all these drills. He's, he's following my suggestions and he's, he's making some progress, but there's just this glaringly obvious thing when you compare video. You're looking at videos from before to now, like the body's changing and stuff, but down around the ankle and foot doesn't seem to be changing and it's getting in the way. This guy goes, okay, I'm going to try and try on a Lang. Race boot, inverted commas, and see how that goes. Immediately the next day went out, skied better. Yeah, changed nothing else but the boot. And this guy's sort of advanced intermediate, you know, now getting over that plateau more into the advanced sort of range. And it was, you know, there's several people that this season have commented on just changing the boots to, in inverted commas, a race boot, something that has better geometry, might have needed some grinding and some punching to get in the, in the right position, but allows them to change the cuff alignment, all these different sections. Because when you get these boots, they're set up to allow this customization, which I think is the, the biggest downfall in, in boots in general. When you go cheaper, you get less customization, and so then you get a boot that puts you in this weird position. You can't flex, you can't balance right, your knees in a different spot to where you normally like to balance. Skiing is just more difficult. And yeah, so we're seeing a similar thing here. And I guess we're trying to say is— and Lou mentioned there— you don't have to be scared of, of the numbers necessarily, because you're right, I'm on a 150 flex boot. It doesn't feel— once I've got it all set up right, it doesn't feel that stiff. But yet I've been in other boots that are lesser flex, and they, they certainly feel a lot more like a brick wall. And I know in the moguls I would find them a lot harder to ski.

Yeah. And I have, and you run into the opposite problem with your students. I have students now where I'm desperate to get them to bend their ankle and not stand so tall. Right. And I say, you have to get more forward and you do that. And invariably they bend their knees and they bend their hips and their butt's going up and down and they're getting lower and taller, but nothing is happening at their ankle at all. And I, I, can you push your knee forward? No, the boot's way too, I can't push my knee forward, so I can't begin to get them in the right stance. But yet the flex number on the boot is only an 80 or 90, right? Yeah.

So, you know, I just remember one other thing that, that, that I was surprised about in some of these lower level boots or even lower flex boots, cheaper boots. I've found also, Lou, that the ramp angle inside the boot, the boot board, has some serious like change. The heel is way higher, like archy. This season he had this little Atomic boot— nothing against Atomic, just this, this— we happen to have that, that boot. And I measured the heel height and the toe height after a week of him skiing, and my wife and I going, what is wrong with his skiing? He's gone backwards. He skied better 6 months prior on worse snow in Australia in a different boot that, that had a different heel height to toe height though. It was much more level and it looked back seat. We're trying to get him to flex forward and I've seen him do it before. Suddenly it's changed. So that was another thing I noticed in these other boots. They, they just don't seem to care about the angles as much. They tend to just, oh, if we tip it more forward, maybe that'll help the intimate— the beginner skier get more forward. Actually the opposite.

It's actually the opposite.

Yeah.

We've had this talk and there's a lot of things that, that you and I know that happen with performance boots that are so lower angles, more forward lean, higher flex numbers, but the boot actually flexes easier. There's lots of things that happen with performance level boots that isn't the, the advertised concept, so to speak.

That's right.

Sold to beginner intermediate skiers and women. Right. The advertised concept is, yeah, we're going to give you a lot of heel, a lot of ramp angle because that's going to help you stay forward. Yeah. We're going to build that into the bindings. So the bindings are going to be 6mm higher in the heel than they are at the toe. And like, none of that. None of that.

And you want— and you wonder why— and you wonder why as an instructor you keep banging the same feedback to people: flex your ankles more, get more forward. But if I stood in that boot and that setup, I can tell you I would have my body upright. I'd have my knees not, not over my toes, because if I did that in this setup, I would literally be falling forward. My heels would be pulling out of my boots with that kind of, uh, setup. So Yeah.

Um, you know, that's a quick, a quick aside. I don't, I, I'll just mention it since we're talking. I was, I'm going skiing this week with, with a guy for some training and he, he has not made, but he's tried out for the US demo team several times. So, you know, at least what level skier he must be. And he has now set his binding ramp angle to negative. So his toe is slightly higher than the heel and he, he says, this is the best setup I've ever had on my skis. And he is changing all his skis over.

And anyway, it, it's just, no, I, I think that's a good, I mean, I, I don't think, I think it's a good segue there because I mean, back to the archy thing. So I went back home, back to the condo we had, and I got out cardboard cereal box and I cut out the shape of the forefoot, you know, uh, of the, uh, the boot board, and made 2, 3 thick thickness layers and taped that to the bottom of his like liner. So at least gas pedal lifted his forefoot up a bit, but it still wasn't like— it improved it. Tell you what, the next day— this is a 6-year-old— he said, oh Dad, skiing's much easier now. Only thing we changed, leveled out his foot, right? And I just, I just couldn't believe that in this kid's boot, you know. And what is the most common bit of feedback to kids? It's like, bend your ankles. What if all kids, you know, and kids have very flexible ankles most of the time, way more than adults. Why are they struggling to flex their ankles? Not just, you know, it's scary to get forward once you get that feeling of sliding. I just, I'd be really curious to see in general, across the board, our kids' boots, especially rental boots, what's What's the ramp angle in there? And is that part of the problem? And then suddenly kids go into a race program, they get a race boot. No, they're skiing better. It's not just the race program. What if it's just they're getting into a boot that actually is set up to ski?

I agree. And that's really what we're talking about here is the— so we don't get too far away, but is that, you know, there are boots called race boots. And, and a lot of people will be scared of a concept. And yet what you get with a race boot, with a boot called a race boot, is a narrower boot, a lower volume boot, a boot that probably almost certainly fits your foot better unless you have an overly high volume foot. You get a better liner, you get angles that you can ski better, and overall you just get a better experience. And so what we want to talk about here is, okay, here's a different concept of looking at race boots instead of being scared of them. Let's look at them as, as a way to fit. They come in different widths. And if you're narrower than a C width, and I would say a C width is, is for a 98mm boot. If you're narrower than that, you ought to automatically be looking at a race boot. And you should be looking at a 95mm boot or a 93mm boot.

So let's do a role play here. I'm— I've come into your shop, Lou, and I've measured, uh, as a 98mm foot, and maybe— no, it measures 100, 100mm foot, okay? But I got a wide forefoot, narrower heel. You've gone out, you've brought some boots, and I've put them on, and here's my feedback, Lou. Oh yeah, it's kind of feel— it feels snug, but it's a lot of pressure up like near the front of my foot on the sides.

I want to do this. Do you mind? Maybe a little different.

Okay. Different. Yeah.

Because you shouldn't— in a good shop, I shouldn't be measuring how wide your foot is in terms of millimeters, because ski boots are just like footwear. When we talk about a 98mm boot, that boot is only 98mm in a size 26. In a size 27, it's 100 or 101 millimeters. And in a size 28, it's 104 or 105 millimeters. So if we measure how wide your foot is numerically, it gets really confusing. Instead, I like to measure how wide your foot is as an A, B, C, D, E, or, you know, is the regular Brannock, called Brannock system. That metal device that every shoe store in the world has had. And I think every ski shop should have, 'cause then if you're a C width, a C width is a 98mm boot. And if your foot is a C width, it, it's a proportional system. So a C width, that's a 27. Someone with a C width, 27, size 27 foot would be, narrower numerically foot than a C width as a 24, but the boot compensates for that. So all we have to know, if I'm explaining this clearly, all we have to know is that you're a C width. And if you're a C width, there's probably no reason you need to be in a boot wider than a 98.

Yes.

Yeah. Okay. And if you just remember 98, then you don't have to Nobody has to remember, well, your foot's 104mm, but you're 104mm and your foot is a size 29. So that really means your foot is narrow, right? Because 104mm that long is narrow.

I'm going to quickly say, because I've said it or we've discussed on a podcast before, but in general, so if people want to know, The 26.5 or 26 boot is the standard where lasts are measured. So if it's a 93, 95, it's measured off a 26 boot, and I happen to be a 26. And so that's— sorry, I probably threw it off on the wrong foot there because, uh, I understand the size. But for people, every size you go down, in general, the boot from 26, if you go down to a 25, it'll be 2 millimeters less, maybe even 3, but maybe, okay, maybe 3. Correct.

Yes.

So each size down, it goes 2, 3, or the, the width reduces as you go up. So if you go from a 26 to a 28, it might jump up. That 98mm boot, the last is 9, it might now might be 102mm as you, you go up. So it does accommodate, but in general, when you see the advertising, when, when a boot is talked about as a 96, a 95, 98, it's based off of a 26.5 boot. So you need to go up and down there. That's, that's what we're trying to get, get across here. But so now if I— if so, I'm a— say I'm a 28.5 length foot and, uh, yet I've got a 100mm wide foot.

Well, I'm gonna call it I'm gonna say that's, that's a C width, probably.

Okay.

I'm not gonna worry about the 100 millimeters. I'm gonna measure you as a C, and I'm gonna bring out a 98 millimeter boot.

What might I feel though, say you bring that boot out compared to just the all-mountain boot in the same brand, and say you bring out the Invertix as the race boot versus the— what might I notice and not— I don't wanna be scared about or know that I can change or the boot fit can help me change.

Well, the definition of boot fitting to me is, is not just to sell a boot. It's to understand that boots can be modified in so many ways and so easily. And I can take a boot that I like to call C width, a 98, and I can make it an E width if I want. So if you came in and conceivably you had a C-width foot, but with a really narrow heel, I would actually go to maybe a 95mm boot or a 93mm boot in order to hold your heel in place really well. And then I would just make it wider in the forefoot, right, to accommodate your wider forefoot. And that would be a typical woman's foot. So what people will feel in general with, with a lower volume boot is, is a lack of space. It won't have space around your foot anymore. And so in a big high volume boot, you can feel like I buckle my boot and then I can move my foot around inside my boot. And that's in skiing. That's not a good thing in, in almost anything to do with sports that isn't just walking. It's not a, I don't, you know, fit my running shoes loosely. I don't fit my hiking boots loosely. I want everything to feel like it's my foot. It holds my foot in place and my foot and my shoe are all one thing. So the difference will be that you'll have even, I think, oftentimes more comfortable in a narrower boot because you'll have even pressure all around your foot instead of having places that are high pressure, really lacking and really lacking pressure, and then a complete void somewhere else. Yep. Yeah. So basically what you'll get is, I think oftentimes a more comfortable fit. What's, what becomes alarming is that let's say someone has a bunion. I measure their foot and their foot with the bunion is, and it's a fairly big bunion, is, their foot with the bunion is a D width. It would be easy to put them in a D width boot and the bunion would be really comfortable. But if you can envision it, there wouldn't be any pressure on their foot anywhere except on the bunion. And then as soon as they go skiing and pressures change and their foot moves a little bit sideways to make, as you edge your skis, right? And the load translates into a sideways load on your foot. Now all of a sudden there's incredible pressure on the bunion, but there's still no pressure anywhere else in the boot. If I instead say that foot is actually without the bunion would be a C width. So I get them a C width boot and put a punch there for the bunion. Now I've got a boot that is snug on their foot everywhere and there's no pressure on the bunion at all. Yeah. So that's my concept. And that's why I like not talking about race boots as race boots. And I prefer to talk about them the way they fit. So there's lots of reasons that I may choose to put someone in an ultra narrow boot. And I'd, I'd call, we can call a 93mm boot an ultra narrow boot. The world calls it a high level. Maybe they call it a World Cup race boot. But Head in their World Cup race boots makes them all the way down to an 80 flex. I can sell almost any size woman in the world an 80 flex boot.

Yeah.

Even if she's a beginner. Yep. So if she came in and had a really narrow foot, that's what I would probably do in my store. If her foot was narrower than a C width, I would automatically choose a narrower boot.

Yeah.

Or if she had a really narrow heel, you know, I talk to a lot of women and yeah, I get blisters in my hiking boots. I get, you know, my heel's always loose in my boots. Typical woman's foot is a narrower heel than a man's relative to the forefoot. So I might choose to put her in a really narrow boot. A 95mm boot or a 93mm boot that'll hold her heel really solidly and through her ankle really well. And I just have to widen the forefoot. And that's what boot fitting is. And if, if you, but if you don't approach it that way, you can never get a really nice fit.

Yeah. Yeah. If you kind of approach it with what boot in the shop can it can I walk out with, with doing the least amount of work?

That's right.

Yeah, that's, that's not boot fitting.

If I shop for the boot, that is, if I, if I go and try on a whole lot of boots and find the most comfortable one in the store, that's not boot fitting. And it's probably not buying a boot that fits at all the way a boot should fit anybody that's skiing, whether they're a really high-level skier or whether they're a beginner. I would argue that, I would argue that, that a beginner should maybe have a better fitting boot than an expert. Now, I mean, the expert can appreciate it more.

Yes.

But, but if I take the director of Sun Valley Ski School and put him in a boot that's 2 sizes too big, I guarantee he will still look like the guy who is the head of the ski school, right?

Yeah.

Now, in his mind, he may be going, God, this is awful.

I can't get grip, but I can't—

yeah, I can't do anything. But he's not going to turn into a beginner, right? Yeah. But if I take a beginner and put them in a really poorly fitting boot, it makes everything they're trying to do more difficult because they don't know what to do anyway. Right. So we're trying to get them to bend. We're trying to get them to move. Right. And the boot is just inhibiting all of that.

Yeah. Lou, can I, I just thought about this.

Yep.

We, did you ever fit like Alpine boots when they were leather to people? Were you, did you ever?

No. I, I, when I started skiing, my first boots were leather, but I've never fit leather boots. Plastic boots came along. In the, in the '60s when I was in junior high school or senior high school.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Just, uh, out of it, just, I mean, that material, I know there's been a few people who've talked about, oh, that I'm not sure if you remember that a guy, but, um, yeah, this website called Ski Moves and he talked about how a lot of skiers skied better, had better stance, better balance when they were in the older school leather kind of boots compared to—

well, that seems possible. I mean, based on your feeling about a boot being too upright and, and, and about low-quality boots being ultra stiff even though the flex number is low, in an old leather boot you could— I mean, there was no limit to how much forward you could get, right? There was almost no resistance there.

Yeah, sure, the edging sort of part, you're not going to get as much leverage there. Um, but I just remember comments— yeah, I just remember comments about balance and stance particularly. And, you know, so it was great, nice Colorado-type snow. Um, yeah, a lot of skiers didn't find it that difficult to turn the skis and, and Yeah, that, that sort of stuff because of setup. Anyway, I diverge there. Um, so Lou, the main takeaway here that I guess why we had this conversation is ideally, if you, if you want a good fitting boot, it's going to need to be snug. A lot of boots that are going to be more snug on the market are categorized into a race boot. Don't be scared of that because, as you said, Head even makes narrow 93mm boot right down to like 80, 90 flex. So that can deal with a, a, a very low intermediate sort of woman skiing, but she can still get a great fit.

And then any other con, like sort of, well, I, I think, I mean, I'm, I mentioned Head because I'm super familiar with Head. Head was the biggest selling boot in my store for 20 years. Because the boot's so high quality and because it just fits so well in all different models. But, but everybody, not just Ted Dalbello and Nordica and, and Salomon and Lang, everybody makes ultra narrow boots and narrower boots that we would call race boots that are still made in flexes that we can sell to virtually any person walking on the street. And, and so I, whether I like Head, but whether you buy Head or any of those other boots, you should be able to find what you need in flex and, and still be able to pay attention to actually getting a proper fit.

Yes. And I guess we should probably tie this up. Not everyone is going to— like, a big part of this is you want to have a boot fitter that is good at the boot fitting process. You might live in an area, like you said, a lot of your guests are not coming from Idaho, South Carolina, you know, Detroit, different places where, you know, might not have access there. Any comments around, around accessibility, good boot fitting?

Well, I mean, the comment is that it's not always accessible or it's not readily accessible. There's a lot of shops that when you— and these can be big box stores or unfortunately even what we would call professional ski shops where you'll walk in and say, hi, I'm a beginner, I'm looking for a boot. And they'll say, well, I'll go get you a beginner's boot. They never measure the width of your foot. They never analyze your foot shape. And so you're got a beginner boot by definition is a wide boot always. So if that's the approach, you're never going to have a proper fitting boot. So if that's the level of ski shop that's available where you live, then if, if you want to get a really proper fitting boot that will help you ski better, you're going to have to shop elsewhere. Yep.

Yeah, yeah. So it's just that, that, isn't it? And if there are people listening to this podcast or watching it on YouTube, they're probably into it enough that they might realize, well, on my next trip out to Park City, on my next trip to Sun Valley, there's going to be— um, maybe I'll ask people around, do you know of a good shop that, that would be, um, yeah, if if you don't have, a high-level boot fitting shop where you live, chances are where you're going skiing, there is one.

If, if you're in the middle of America or wherever, or, you know, you're in UK, but you're skiing in France, there's good boot fitting in UK for sure. But if there isn't any right where you are, there will be at the resort you, you're going to in France. So somewhere you'll be able to find good boot fitting.

Definitely. Yeah.

Yeah.

Great. All right, Lou. And then finally, so people know, I mean, can you tell what's your age and what boot are you in?

I'm 71. I'm in a Technica plug boot. So a 95mm boot and, and but it's perfect. It's a 120 flex. So it's bendable all the time.

Yeah. You've skated all over the mountain this season.

Bumps and I don't, I don't need, I don't need a different boot to teach in. I don't need a different boot for bumps. I don't. It's 120 flexes. Is approachable everywhere. But as you said, boot flex is more about fore and aft and bending it forward than it is about bending it sideways. So even a softer boot still has plenty of performance to get a ski on edge. So I ski and I just had this conversation with the training director at Sun Valley Ski School the other day. So I ski a 120 flex. It's never too stiff no matter how cold it is. It fits me really well. It holds my foot in place. I don't have to buckle it real tightly. I use it all day long.

Yep. Thanks.

Cool.

I hope, yeah, I hope this helps some people out there that, you know, with, with their next boot selection, they have a little bit more information. They might consider something different. Um, cause I can certainly from my side testify, I've found it easier to teach people that are in these types of boots once they're fitted because of the closer fit, the geometry, the angles, the ability to customize things, the liner, the quality. Is you might pay a little bit more, but then you can get yourself in the right position. And that's so important to me, how to take these next steps in your, in your skiing. Because someone could tell you like, yeah, keep— if they keep— if you keep getting told to flex your ankles and you're trying to do it and it's not happening, I tell you what, it's not— bending your ankles is not hard. As soon as you step out of a pair of ski boots, anybody in the world can flex their ankles unless they have a fused ankle. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's— so I just find it, I find it bizarre how so many people get like, don't go, well, why is it that I can't, you know, do this? Like, it's your boot, it's your boot. Geometry, not just the flex.

Relative to what you said about expense, for certain, as boots get narrower and they get higher performance labels or stiffer flex, whatever, they do get more expensive. But, but boots, boots are for certain the most important part of your gear. Yeah. And, and the expensive boot relative to getting on a plane and going to a resort for a week and paying for lift tickets or an Ikon Pass or whatever. Boots are nothing. I mean, yeah, a beginner boot is going to be $400 or so in the US and, and the race boot is going to be $800. That $400 isn't even the first day at the resort, right?

That's right. I remember Tim Ferriss talking about this relative to how much you use, like cost of things versus how much you use it. Like, sure, if you go out to lunch and you spend $500 on lunch, you know, versus where you could spend $10 on lunch, like that's a, that's a crazy cost thing. But a pair of boots, if you're buying a $1,000 boot versus a $500 boot, over the amount of days you use it, what that cost is per day is very— yeah, like it just comes out in the wash pretty good. Just as, uh, yeah, some perspective there. Anyway, yeah, Lou, thanks very much for, for joining us again and, and giving us some some of your perspective and expertise and insights into boot fitting. I hope you have a great end of season in Sun Valley. It's cool you're enjoying the teaching, and the people at the Sun Valley Ski School are really lucky because I know you've been doing some little lectures and talks on boot fitting and bindings.

So we've been having a really good time, and it is really— it's been a lot of fun. And all the things, especially about bindings,, and are so unknown. Nobody experiments with it. So actually next week we're doing a whole seminar on snow so that we'll take everybody out and we'll move bindings around and let them really experience for themselves. So far, everyone that's attended any of the seminars that I did on binding position has changed their binding position and they have permanently adopted the new binding position versus the manufacturer's position. Wow. So I'm having—

yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. And just so if people are interested in that, there are actually— there's a podcast. Yeah. Uh, or two actually with Lou, just back in the Big Picture Skiing podcast history. Just search Lou Rosenfeld and that'll come up, binding angle, and you can find out some more information on that, which is, which is fascinating. It gets right into some technical stuff with studies with you know, World Cup versus even sort of lower-level racer and the differences they feel between— between some really fascinating stuff. Anyway, it's really good. So yeah, thanks for, for sharing that with the world, Lou. And yeah, have a great season. I'll chat to you next time.

Okay, talk to you later, Tom.

Bye-bye.