Learn to ski a mogul line with Geri Tumbasz

Hey skiers, welcome back to the Big Picture Skiing podcast. Today we are discussing mogul skiing and how you can get over being afraid of the bumps and actually start loving them, enjoying them. And my guest on the podcast is Gary Tumbas. Now Gary and I discuss moguls, and I really dig into Gary's method of how he takes people from basically being totally afraid, don't want to ski a bump line, to being able to ski down 60 bumps in a row. So if He's going to talk us through his method, which is actually backed and based on the fact that he wasn't great at moguls. He admitted himself in the past he didn't really have a great way to approach it, but now he does. It's fascinating, really, really interesting. It's a great progression he presents. We dive into really what makes the guy, Guy Tick, he's a fantastic skier. Like, if you don't follow him on Instagram, you should. Now. Check him out after this. I think this is an awesome episode. I personally love mogul skiing. I spend a lot of time working on it. I love teaching it as well. And so this one is right here in, in this spot. I'm so glad I've got an excellent mogul skier and coach on the podcast, Gary Tombaz. Let's get into helping you ski bumps better right now. It seems that you've now become this person that people go to when they're kind of terrified or really want help with mogul skiing. Is this true? How did this come about? How are you like the, the mogul whisperer?

That's not, that's not— say, yeah, say, uh, what actually happened is I struggled a lot with moguls myself back in the day, and I always wanted to learn it. And yes, it ended up in the recent years, like, my camps, some of them get booked out because like girls and guys coming in that they are just scared of the, of the zipline. And the story behind is like, I passed my level 4, and I, I have to say I wasn't a good skier. I wasn't a good, good mogul skier. It was like, and, and I realized it's— I'm not the only one who goes through the system, level 1, level 2, level 3, And you have to have some exams in off-piste. And moguls and bumps belong to the off-piste stuff. And I realized this for everyone is like a jolly joker. Like, I have to have a good freeride run and I have to get a good rhythm change. And the moguls, yeah, no, no, no. So the other two has to lift up my points that I pass the exam. When I finished the whole course, actually my trainer talked to the people and to everyone and said like, you know what is your strongest part? You focus on that one and that makes your weaknesses. And I was like, come on, I want to still learn how to do the moguls. Like I'm not good at it. So that was my trigger that just go for it and figure it out. Now I have the time, I had all my exams, but I want to be a good mogul skier. Basically, it's a self-experience that, yes, I struggled a lot, I was frustrated a lot, and I looked for people who can teach me.

Would that be the first step after you've passed? You're like, okay, I'm gonna work on my weakness. Did you go find some, like, who did you find? Who helped you first of all?

First of all, I found Richie Berger. Like, it's, it's, okay. The, the, so what happened is I ended up being after level 4, I had a chance to go to the Snow Sports Academy as a trainer for training level 1s, level 2s. And there my boss was, uh, Richie Berger. And I ended up there and was like, yep, this is the chance to, to learn from someone who is the guru. Yeah, like he was guru. So, so basically that was definitely, he was one of them. Who, who changed my mindset about the whole bump. Wow.

So what, what year was that?

But it started in 2009.

2009. Okay.

Yeah, it was literally running around and then get information and, and get some runs and, uh, and find out what to, what to change, how to do that.

Yeah.

But this is one part of the story. The other part is that I traveled a lot in the last 10 years. And of course, I ended up in Japan and in Korea and all the influence or what I see there, how they teach, how they learn, how they practice. That definitely made my mind working on it. Okay, what can I take home and develop my system on my mountains? That works for me to teach other people. And basically that's how the whole system ended up, like figuring out, okay, I have a line, I have a zipline, a ratline, and still I teach people to ski down there and be able and confident to start and say, okay, I can do this. And the first step is always just take away the fear.

Let's get into this. This, this is great because I was hoping if someone's listening, whether they are a coach, they're good at this or they're not, I was hoping you would pass on your, your wisdom of this is kind of where you start and these are the problems. And so you do this and then this and then this so people can have a bit of framework, a bit like you finding Richie and seeing some other people to go and practice. So someone comes along to to your camp, they really don't like moguls, they're very scared. Where do we start? What's our first thing we're being taught about? What do we do?

Funny, funny what you say. Like, yes, people don't like, but they still come to learn this stuff. Like, this is kind of a trigger. Yeah. If someone like buys in and say, I want to do this, that's already a win. Because then, okay, let's give it a try. So my job is made like halfway down because they are committed to try. And then I just have to make the smallest steps detailed as possible that the approach is really with so small steps that, okay, if someone is good enough, make bigger steps, but everyone has the chance to actually understand what they do, having the movement right and the movement flow in before we actually just start to narrow it down in direction to get in the line. So what we start, like basically it's a 4-day camp and at the first day morning, there's no bumps. Like literally what happens is I have my system from the Vetch Christie, Vetch parallel, Vetch parallel, and I try to get people to move the legs legs as much as possible and getting coordinated first and then quicker. And not that they rush the movement. So it has to fit, like they have to have the coordination that in a certain space they manage to open a wedge and close and open and close and have this— is a dance.

Great. So it'd be going to like something not too steep, groomed. And, and you'll show us, uh, just for the listener, like a wedge. So starting like a triangle snowplow, and then for people listening, Christie is parallel. So wedge, parallel, wedge, parallel. Now tell us why, because there's some people who might go, it's not good to do— we don't want to go back to beginning of snowplow, that's what beginners do. Why, why is the wedge useful at this point?

Garry? Because it's all about like the corridor, what we narrow down is like one snowcat track corridor. So that's the goal, like the wedge parallel is okay, everyone, everyone is different, different system to system, but learned the wedge parallel and happy to be and get rid of it. What's the aim of the game here that this movement open, close, open and match the skis is has to happen in a corridor of a snowcat track, while we end up being with the upper body direction the valley, the fall line.

Down the hill.

Down the hill, yes. And that means this is a basic exercise for separation where the ski turns in a different direction without turning the upper body. This is one. The other thing is that because this is a step, a stem art, it's still pressure and, and stable leg on the downhill side while we already turn the ski and, and the ski in the new direction. And when you think about the moguls, this is where, where the timing goes. So I have to be able, top of the turn, quick as possible, make direction. Like, yes, tip stays there and the ski tail goes out. And there the main focus is, does the tip stays really in a wedge? Because then makes direction the new outside ski. If I open wide, nothing happens. So if I'm stepped down, I still have to turn.

Yes.

If I do the wedge, it's already done. So by the time I'm matching it, the turn is done, the next is coming. So I win space and actually time to stabilize. To the two ski.

Yep, I'm in total agreeance with you. It's just more as I just— it's good to, to talk it out. I think using wedges for learning a lot of things is really useful. It's not, uh, going back to beginner, it's just, uh, it's really useful because you can practice at slower speeds what you can't usually balance as well with skis parallel. So you can get the feeling, like you said, you're trying to get them to get control, direction change, and so you can get them feeling that corridor. They're staying in the corridor really fast. Okay, so we're, we're doing that in a cat track corridor, um, for the first day, and are you kind of correcting, you know, some things?

Yes, so it's, it's fun because it's a basic exercise. But so many people already struggling it because I never did a, never did a, a, a wedge. But once the movement is there, you can take away the poles and balance the upper body and have core tension and move the legs, move the legs. Like it's really a dancey movement.

Yeah.

And, and develop some rhythm. And we are in a corridor, so we try to be in that corridor. And once the And yes, correcting and having like some exercises how to swing, how to slide, where to put the ski, like how you build up the ankle tension to actually get the grip in the end. And really when you match the skis, then there is a kind of a hockey stop, like it's really on the edge and not just sliding out for the next one. And this is in a corridor, and once we have it, we try to make the marks of this, of the turns as well, like the length of the turn. Because the wide of the turn is a corridor, but how long does it take to actually fit the whole movement is still like free until— and that's where the, where the line comes in. I build a line with gates, and basically the gates signing the hockey stop part where you have to be done with the turn, two skis parallel, edge, and that has to be there. So first you track the people in one corridor and then you basically set the, the turn length in the same.

Yes.

And, and that's, that's the point when there are no bumps. Yeah, but the corridor is already there and the gates are already there. And once you start the same movement what you learned on a flat slope, on a groomed slope, on a little bit steeper slope, you set in a flat slope with marks on it, indicators, and then the steeper slope as well, the same. Then what happens is like you start to practice the same wedge, edge, wedge, edge story and try to really fit everyone in this corridor.

Yeah.

Why you repetitively do the same thing with a group, it depends on the conditions, but you ski out a line.

You make a mogul line.

You make a mogul line while you're actually practicing. And what's the, what's the biggest advantage is at the beginning there is nothing, there is just the gate. And every turn and every lap makes it deeper and deeper. And if it's too choppy or too, too deep, then you can evenly shape it again, just a little bit more gentle. But people doing still the same thing as they learned on the blue slope without anything, like it's still wedge, edge, wedge, edge. And from there is just question of time, that how much runs you need to actually get in deep in bumps. Like the, the shaping is getting more deeper and deeper, but people still ski it runned and doing the same movement. As, as long they work with the same movement flow and the timing is right and the line is right, they can ski down. It's basically a mogul line skied by stem turns. Yes.

So we're still— we would still be— it's now maybe after lunch, and we're built— we've pushed— it's sort of springish, warmer conditions. So we're built like there's snow being pushed up into moguls. We've got this line, we're all still practicing getting the, the wedge and probably like you said, the timing of the edge, so we're not doing it too early, we're kind of getting it on your, where you've put your gates or these little flags to mark the, yeah.

So the reason why this worked for me as well, because when we start to ski moguls, in Austria especially, we learn this, die Verlastung, this is the down movement. To get small. And what I realized, this is a misconception, like I have to be small to do the bumps. The problem is that I feel like people focus on getting really small without any impact. And then when we end up in the bumps, then the impact comes anyway, but we are in a completely lost position. Like already small, losing tension, focusing just to get the, the butt down. And, and it's not, not required by the bumps. Like, it's not about how you— the terrain looks like, it's about the movement here that I have to be small. So, and because of that, people go down with the center of mass, and not what we want actually, that the knee comes up. Yes, up by the bump. So the, the whole Wedgie Edgy story was like, yes, I slide down and I keep the tension like the hockey stop, and there's no goal that I, I want to absorb something. I go lateral to the, to the other one because I want to keep the high line and go around in a round shape first, literally ski around the deepest holes.

Yes.

And for that, to be able to take that line, I have to keep the tension and the pressure on the ski. Otherwise I just rush into the deepest hole directly, like, like hitting the wall on the opposite side. So, so the whole make direction with the top of the turn with the wedge is about get to the other side of the corridor, make the wedge, slide in, stop sliding, go across the corridor. So that's the run line, how you actually find your line to, to manage to go around the, the deepest holes there.

Yes. Okay, so the words learning first, this rounder line, getting around the holes instead of going down the holes. Yeah, bam bam. And need— yeah. And then maybe being confused by this idea that you, you can't ski moguls unless you absorb, which is not true.

Yes, yes, yes. So, so, and this absorb is, is a, is a second, third, whatever, is a further level because it belongs to speed. And we are on the basics, like we are in the first, second gear, which means like I don't want to have a lot of impact. I want to manage first the line, and I want to manage first the control what I have. And the control is about how to control your speed, how to control your direction. To control the speed, I need some space to actually slide and build up edge and stabilize myself. And prepare for the grip. And I tell the grip conscious because I don't prepare for the impact first. If I prepare for the grip and I try to build the grip and from there I've stabilized platform to move where I want, this grip helps me to actually get prepared with tension, ankle, feet and everything and the upper body. When I get some extra from the bump, I can deal with. Because if people going in the line and say, I have to absorb, in the mindset is always like getting soft. Yeah, I'm gonna have to give soft leg. That means after 5 bumps, like, tuck, tuck, tuck, tuck, you get smaller, smaller, smaller until you fly out. Because, because it's really quick, like, especially these tip lines are really quick. Like you have like 3, 4 meters between two turns and yeah, like you see the mogul skiers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, so, so Gary, a lot of people listening will be in North America, Canada, uh, where there's less of this mogul line like we find in like Europe where people ski a line in where there's like one, two, or three lines that everyone goes down, or Japan where it's even more like just one line a lot of the time. Would you say this is still a really good approach no matter if it's natural mogul field or the mogul line?

What I found is like this whole line, uh, there's two things. The one is that as I told you, we ski round at the beginning. That means you have always the chance to go round that means in a shape turn. And while you get better, you go more direct line, direct line inside of the bump. So you, you end up really absorbing and go straight in the bumps. So all the techniques is possible, but it's always the same. Like, the size of the bump is the same, the distance of the bump is the same, the steepness is the same. So it's basically a really friendly environment. Yes. And you can repeatedly do the same thing over and over to get the muscles in, uh, get this in the muscle memory. Yeah. Because, because after 4 days or whatever, like, people training up there, you know inside out the whole, whole bump line. You know, oh, this is a longer one, this is a shorter one, but basically it's always like tap, tap, tap, tap. You have the rhythm, there's nothing to change. You look for forward and you train your body to do this. You go out in the natural bump line and you have the tools. You have run line, you know how to keep pressure, you know how to release the tail, you know like how to go to the direct line. But then you have one more thing to do. You have to look for your line, and that's where people ending up shopping. Like, oh, I don't like this one. This is too long. This is too small. Like, there are lack of skills and orientation as well. Where should I go now? Because some of the bumps is just really small. Some of the bumps is really long. So you can fit two turns on top and all of this. So I think this is a nice way to learn. Mm-hmm. But this is not the end of the game because for me, like, natural bumps can go two directions. One is you have much more space because the bump is not 3.60m away, sometimes 5m. So then you have time to go low and down and get small and extend your leg and use that to actually control your speed. But sometimes that slope gets also like really short, 3, 4 turns really short, and then Again, a long one. So what I think, what helped me personally, that's a personal story, uh, when in the line started to understand how to control my direction and my speed, and I started to look for the solution. Because before of that, I was always focusing on the problem, like this is a wall, this is a deep hole, that's gonna hurt me. And that's what people are scared. Like, they're looking down and they see just a bomb field, and, and that's already like defense, and they have no solution. I've sometimes— I go so far, like, say, like, the mogul skiing is like, is like a life lesson. As long as you focus on the problem, you hit the problem without, without any solution. If you, if you find the solution how to control yourself, speed, direction, slide, edging, how to find the space to do that, then you have solution. Then you look for the solution every single time. So you go in a natural bump field and you see, okay, this is a huge bump. Probably the other side is enough space to control myself. And then, and then, and then. So you guess better what you can do. So you have a lot of solutions. And then, yeah, sometimes you still hit the problem, but not always just focusing on that one.

Yeah, cool. I mean, I, I really love this idea because I spent a lot of my seasons overseas early on in Canada, and you don't have to build mogul lines. There's just moguls, moguls, moguls everywhere off-piste. So I guess I skipped that, but I, I'm really excited, uh, to go and start building some lines first of all, just like you said, like go back, make these steps to getting good at moguls, like really small first and fix a lot of problems. Like you said, the timing of when the edge is made, how people are initiating with this method. It's, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And then you get more repetitions in of things that are not changing. The mogul field is not changing as much as a natural one. Okay, you answered that really, really well. I'm convinced. I'm convinced.

But I have to say, like, this is not there's no one way. Yeah, so if I end up in a resort where there's huge bumps, of course I don't start to build like lines. Of course I find mine, but, but you know that then you see, okay, what can I fit on this one and how can I teach the same things here and show people what to look for and ski the field But of course, then I have to, I have to look for the perfect bump to actually see that. But, but this is not the only way to do. So it's, I always say like, there's nothing wrong with the, with the Austrian, uh, get small, but you have to go there that it's so steep and so long the bump that you actually have time for this. You can actually easily extend your leg because you have time and, and you don't have to react really quickly.

Yeah, and it's the bump is so much like a step that it will work. You come in and you get small, whereas the ones you're talking about, there's not much of a step for you to, to get small and slow down on. So yeah, I think what you're saying there is although you have this method really behind it all, you're, you're trying to teach people to figure out, like, look at the landscape these methods work well for tackling this type of terrain and this type of bump. And then, then if we go to steeper or deeper, we add some more skills and we, we train for those situations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, uh, we, we mentioned that at the beginning that, uh, for example, you've been in Canada and, and you see a lot of bump fields and, and huge bumps everywhere. So we have, and as a direct geographical issue, in Austria on the glacier there is no bump field. So we don't have that because the glacier gets smaller. We are on a groomed slope. We have some little place to, to actually do something. But the mogul field, as we know, it's not evolving anymore here. And we have all the ski instructor courses in November, and still on the exam you have to ski bumps. So what happened is, uh, we ended up skiing these lines, the tipper lines, and that's a horror because you go off-piste. What happens is, okay, 10 people in, the trainer skis down in a nice rhythm, the guys who have the balls, they're just following him, and and try to keep the rhythm. And the guys who are actually already scared because it's off-piste, and, and they can't really catch up. So it, after 3 runs, it turns like, uh, like craters, like holes. Yeah. And outside there is just fresh snow, so it's not really space to actually, actually turn. It ends up being like a straight down absorb means like impact, impact, impact, impact, and then survival.

This is probably a good segue into that because like I think people who can maybe have skied this type of rut line where it almost feels like you're in a bobsled track than a mogul field. And I want to say right now that what really got me wanting to speak to, to Gary about this is Gary actually has an online course, which I'll put a link in, about— really helpful. He goes over this whole method and even kind of constructs it so it's like a— you're learning, like, these are the key points at this stage, this is how far apart I set my gates. So Gary helpfully points out, he says, when the line is skied too much in a certain way. Maybe you can explain this next bit, but there's— if people ski in a certain way or the pitch is a certain steepness or is too flat, you start getting these zipper lines that are not really good for learning.

Yeah, that's why we're very good too, because once you learn the whole, like, toolset, you know how to ski run line, you know how to go directly, you knew actually how you look for space and places where you control your speed. Like, basically, it needs a slide and the edge to, to spray the snow and, and catch yourself before you get passively bumped around in the impact. And when you have the whole skill set and you understand what you do in the run line, what you do in the straight line, then you actually look down in a line like that and you can analyze immediately how the people skied it. And there are many cases when you see down and you, you look down and you see it and it's like, this is the only way I can do it because there is no space to turn. This is just two walls and I have to fall in. So what kind of tool I have to control my speed? And then we go like, okay, inside of the bump or the, or the turn of the inside.

So can we talk about that one then? So because probably the, the one of the most intimidating ones is the one that looks there's no roundness. It's like, uh, angle wall, as you said, like, and it just looks like people have fit their skis. There's no curve in it. It's like a straight deep rut line and it's kind of pointing and it's not even that much across the hill. So it's very hard. You can't really turn on it or your tails get hung up and you get shot out. So this zigzag wall one, what is the only real option you've got to be able to ski that? What skill set do you need?

What I look for there is always if there is a chance on the, like, when you have the, how do you call it, the inside of the bob before I hit the bottom, not outside because there is not going to help me, but on the inside of that, if I have a chance to slide something in just to push down the ski. And then it also depends how steep is the opposite side, because it's so easy to say what I always guess, like, okay, push the tip down.

Uh-huh.

I don't want to push down the hip there. So like, like there is a wall at the exit, so the fear is legit that if I push down the tip, I just literally get out of my knee.

Uh, yeah, like go over the handlebars. Of a bike.

Exactly. So, so to manage that, that, okay, how the, the bottom looks like, and yes, the tip goes in but not diving down. It's more like to manage to, to have the tip like this is the, the outside, like the exit wall. Yep. So to manage the, the tip there and keeping the little bit the pressure to actually absorb a little bit before I release. This is an interesting point here, like this is the ski tip and this is the wall and this is the bump here. And when I go down and bend the ski, this is one thing. But then so many times you heard like push down the tip, but push down the tip while you are on this side of the, of the ski, it's not gonna work. So, and now we go back to the, to the stem turn thingy. Like, we learn how to actually keep the pressure on the heel until it comes up and then release the heel.

Yes, I'm going to describe just in case people are listening and they're not viewing it, but if I was to describe what you were saying, so you've, you've come down a steep bump and then you're hitting a steep bump facing at you. Ideally, your ski tip is kind of pressured into it, and the ski is bending a little bit as that's happening, and you're starting to ride up the steep bit. And by doing that, by getting the ski tip to do that, you're slowing down because it's kind of like pushing into it a bit. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a bit. And then you're riding up this bump, and the next thing you have to do is— because you're going to come over the top of the back of the next steep one Okay, and everyone, the main tip people here, tips down, tips down, tips down.

And the bumps is always, always the same rule, like that where you had the impact, in which direction you get the impact, and where the center of mass between these two is your foot sole. So, so that's why it's the same in turns, like you enter the turn with the tip of the ski, you shape the turn through the foot sole, and you exit the turn on the tail of the ski. Like the Dolphin moves, what we do is actually like you ski the whole ski, like from the tip to the tail. And this was happening in the bumps, but in the bumps, of course, that is, is a different direction. So what we want is actually that the, the pressure from the bump, the impact, you want to keep and hold on the foot sole but toward the end on the heel. And to be able to release the pressure, the heel has to be front of the hip. Otherwise, otherwise it's underneath you. So, and the problem what we have, but like first thing first. So it has to be front of you. And while you finish the turn, so the ski tip starts to go really in the air, let's say, but the foot will stay on the bump, then your center of mass moving over the bump across. So that's— you have to manage that much pressure that you don't fall in the— like, don't collapse in that.

Collap— okay.

Yeah. And you have enough space to actually actively release that pressure on the tail. So if you think about that, when you actively try to release that pressure, then it's look— it seems like, uh, activating the hamstring and try to kick your butt with the binding. Heel up. I use a lot of these words in the course, like heel up, because what happens if you flex your knee and the hamstring is engaged, then that means that the tail goes up, the tip goes down. And it's not about pushing with the whole system forward to, to get the tip down.

Yes.

Yeah, I try to, I try to use the knee as a hinge point to, with the hamstring, to actually pull back the ski underneath me. Yeah, actively. And because of that, the tip goes down.

Yes.

And that makes the, the end of the ski, the tail, like released. So I actually able to set direction. Yes. So the longer you are— yeah, so the longer you are in, in this hole and the ski tail is caught by the hole, you can't make direction.

Yes.

And by the time you roll over and the whole body comes over, it's basically too late. That's when people start to, to speed up a lot, I think.

So, yeah, okay, okay, cool. So I guess a, a key point you're saying in there, and something you teach, you find you're teaching a lot when people are getting in these more difficult bumps where we're having to deal with these steeper walls and steeper backsides, they need this heel to butt, being able to use the knee as a hinge to, to be able to, uh, then change the, the ski tip and release the, release the tail so then you can go back to your your stem kind of freedom of, of changing direction move.

Yeah, like, that is the worst—

the worst feeling is— the worst feeling is when your tails, you cannot move them. That's when it goes all wrong. Yeah, because that's free.

Yeah, because that's— you are caught in this direction, like the, the, the 45-45, like in the tip line, and you have no chance to release until you like, like get out from that and actually turn the ski somewhere.

Yes, out of the channel.

Yeah, the one thing is not to forget once you manage this that the hamstring is engaged. Of course, by the time the foot sole is on the bump, there's nothing under the tip of the ski. So basically, once you engage this, the tip automatically goes down. It's like it's not it's not looking like you jump every time out with your heel up. It's basically just activate the hamstring and is rolling over the bump because there is no resistance under the ski tip. It's already in the air. And that's why, that's why it makes like easier to— so that, that was for me the point. Like once I started to, to focus on heel up Everything made sense because my center of mass, like the upper body traveling down, and I move the platform fore-aft. Yes. What I'm working on, and all this push down the tip ended up being like, like going with the whole system forward.

I can remember that too. I can remember the season where I started to get the hamstrings working more and pulling the feet back, trying to kick my bum. And it making a huge difference. But I guess if people are not used to going in bumpy terrain where the tips do go up and down, they're used to skiing groomers and they love carving and they just carve, they're used to the ski not having to do that with it very much. Or if they do, it's like, yeah, 5 degrees, like tails up, like, you know, not much. So this is a brand new feel. I imagine people probably come away from your camps with, oh Gary, my hamstrings are sore after day 2, 3.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, maybe it's basically, it's a, it's a lot of work.

They should be, they should be, they should be saying that hamstrings are sort of—

but it's interesting, interesting is for me is not like we are individuals. So, so I go through the steps and I see people just some point finding the aha moment when they realize, oh, I can do this this way, and they get stuck on that one, and they're just enjoying that now they can actually ski the line. That's why they come back some point or just practice them. But basically to give an idea, okay, what is the solution what you use to control yourself in this special line? What is your go-to technique? And we end up having people like round line skiers, and they really enjoy that they go around, and having guys like they are full direct line on the inside because that feels good and it looks more athletic. And basically it doesn't matter. The goal is that we have a line and you have to have like a movement flow. It brings you through 60 bumps. And then you're good.

So when do you introduce, or where do you feel pole planning helps? I'm a big fan of really, like, that's one thing I'm trying to really refine in my own mogul skiing. I watched some good Japanese skiers especially, and I'd watch where, how, you know, they're using their poles, and I can see that's where I would I think I can make some, um, some adjustments and ski things faster and more fluidly. What's your thought on pole plants?

So yep, that's, that's a good one. So, so, uh, like especially in short turns, but basically all, all in, in the skiing, uh, the preparation phase is the interesting. So that's where many people are late. Like, if you imagine, like, okay, the pole plant has its effect, and you have a turning, and you have a balance point, and you feel better, and it stabilizes your body. But then the tip, it goes behind 1, 1.5 meters. And that to move forward, it's not the last moment. Like, it has to make a distance. So what I see that the pole preparation is Basically, a lot of people is just late, because— and especially to link to the bumps, what we try to do is by the time you start to extend, the tip of the pole is already front of you. You basically target the next bump, and, and because that means you are ready. Once the tip of the pole is targeting the next bump, you have the decision where do you want to turn your upper body stays upright. You don't have to reach forward. It's just the tip goes in front of you, and then you strong. There's nothing to do, just the way that you get the shape done and get an extra impact, and the bump comes anyway to the tip of the pole, and then you can control the whole upper body and the and manage the transition. Manage the transition means, yes, upper body stays strong, you have a turning impulse, you can easily turn the ski around the pole, means like the outside turning impulse, and use it as a help.

This episode is brought to you by Carv, the digital ski coach. Now, one of the features I've had the most fun with all time is simply the fact that Carv tracks every single turn you make. I treat it a bit like Strava. So at the end of the day, it tells me exactly how many turns I've done, and those numbers keep adding up across the season. So last season in Australia, I had a few days where I was doing nearly 2,500 turns, and my legs were tired, but it was really cool to try and have that number there motivating me. And I'm quietly working my way towards my 1 millionth turn with Carv. So the other metrics I've been diving into lately, and these are new for this season, are very unique. And these are Turn Corridor and Turn Radius, and I don't see many skiers using them, but they tell you a lot about the shape and flow of your skiing. So the Turn Corridor shows you how far you're traveling across the hill, or the time almost between apex to apex, and how long you're taking to transition, while the Turn Radius measures the actual arc you create once you start the turn. So these can be different, you can have like a very wide corridor, say 18 meters, but a lower turn radius, or the other way around. So when you compare the two, it opens up a whole world of experimentation, and it would be a bit like a race coach will set different types of race courses to influence a racer or skier to change the timing and mix it up. So I encourage you to look into this if you've got Carv and play with it and see if you can manipulate it, because it's only going to improve your versatility. So I keep my Carv on my boots every single day because you never know quite know when, like, a change in technique or a new ski resort or skis will show up in the numbers., and it's great at the end of the day being able to check that, or even after the fact. And I'm really looking forward to the day I open the app and I see turn number 1 million. So if you want to explore your skiing in a completely different way, check out Carv, the digital ski coach. And thank you, team, for sponsoring this episode. Do you find you use— like, introduce it, uh, what, like, on the— on 4-day camps? Do you kind of do it, uh, at a certain point? Um, do you go out of the moguls? Yeah, what do you like to do? Yeah, you go out. Yeah, work on actually— yeah, not being late.

And what the move— what you just did. Yeah, exactly, this is it. So for me, this is the preparation. What you just do, like, the preparation is— helps to bring the tip forward. At the same time, the angulation, let's say, like level the shoulders that way, because the angulation is like getting a little bit confusing, but basically that it's why you bring the tip forward, you keep your shoulders down, means it gets leveled and it stays leveled to have a nice position and a strong position in the pressure phase. And yeah, I like this, like, yes, we do this without bumps on the slope, get the tips forward, have the timing, right? And then back to the corridor and say, okay, near the gate there is the point where you want to target.

So I want to see— to sell this to people, because I, I know how much this— it doesn't seem like it would because it's your pole and your wrist movement and it's happening— you're getting it happening early when you're not quite at the bump yet. But sell us on this.

Would—

would— do you see people— you go out, you work on the pole plant prep, you come back in the bumps and you usually find a lot of people are like, oh, yes, this is better. Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah. And the reason is really simple because, uh, because normally when you ski, there is no, no obstacles, bumps or whatever. So what you see, people have a really nice short turn, good rhythm, but the hand movement and the tip is a little bit stressful, is like last moment. And they shaping a turn really nicely, but there is something is out of the picture. It's just, it's just, and it doesn't matter, you can call it style, you can call it arm movements, whatever. The problem in the bumps is that you on that phase on the turn, you managing the pressure, you managing an extra force, you managing the impact, you try to stay stable and strong and your tip of the pole is behind you.

Yeah, so where's the strength? It's behind you.

So yeah, this is one thing. The other thing, to prepare is already late because you are in a, in, in a hole, like on the side is like, like higher. It's really hard to bring the tip forward. And then solutions, if you lift it up and you go round with the tip, then is a rotation. The body rotates, like the body, like basically the upper body loses the stable position in the last moment when you actually should manage the pressure, the extra impact. And I watched the Moguls skiers and this is just amazing. Okay, they have shorter poles, but they are just upright jumping in, hands in front of them, and you don't see any movement. There, they're just basically walking on the poles from that's right, and that's why they're keeping so stable. And once something goes off, like, you— it immediately pushes them, punishes them.

Yeah, yeah. It's amazing to see how early that basket is already moving ahead with the, with the professional bump skiers. It's so— it's basically as soon as the weight change is happening, the new basket is almost already in front. Yeah, yeah, it's there. Um, anyway, I, I just, I wanted to emphasize that because I think a lot of people maybe might go, oh, it's not going to make as much of a difference because it's not when they feel they lose control. But to your point, you're too late, so you have to start thinking about this stuff early, and then you'll be ready for some more control when you need it at that, at that end point. Um, where do you think we should go, go next? So we've got starting with, uh, wedge parallel turns in a corridor, getting the right distance down the hill because you've started setting up some, uh, some poles, and then where the bump line is built, we're starting to go parallel. We've learned a little bit about, uh, some pole preparation.

Any other things you'd want to When it's basically what happens is coordination is there, the idea how to do this there, they ski the line, and then let's go direct. Like, how to control if you know exactly what, what kind of impact you get from the bump, correct? To do a more direct line. So choosing the, the more like progressive or aggressive line.

Aggressive, yeah. The Olympics is the— yeah, exactly. Up until this point We've been going the nice round line, which is where you want to start because that's your, like you said, your first gear. Okay, I'm ready. We're ready for it, Gary. Let's take it to the World Cup. What are we going to do?

Yeah, so then you are already parallel. You know which direction the ski goes. So it's everything clear, like, okay, this is the exit direction of every bump, like the 45, 90 degree. So I have to turn the ski quickly and set up the direction and slide in, let's say, in the hole, in the deepest point, and then turn to the other direction. And this is more like what I experience is more like the imagination. Like the first time when people start to do this is the same question comes on. Wait, wait, wait, we learned on the outside how to control speed on top of the turn and how to make direction. Now you— and you told me like stay on the high line and go across the corridor. Now you completely go in the other direction and say no, no, no, no, you don't want to get out of the— or to the side of the corridor. You want to imagine that your ski boot is in the middle and you don't let you drag out of that. You try to imagine that you have like a wavy path ahead of you and just on the inside you have some little slopes where you can scrape down the snow and that's your control, and then turn quicker. And don't let you go too far out because then you lose this control. And, uh, and for that, it's like the imagination— you go straight in and you push basically in the, the, the turn. Yep. But not lateral, is more like just what the terrain gives you. Yes. And once the control is there, it's a lot of— it ultimately happens that it's a lot of knee movement comes, like, because the impact is there. But it's not the idea that I'm gonna get— wanna get small. Like, actually, in this whole bump skiing and rut line skiing, the question is how to stay long because the impact is, is coming anyway. So how quick I can be to actually extend my leg again against the next impact to absorb. And I always tell the guys, like, if you go with a mountain bike and you have the shock absorber, this is it. But the shock absorber is loaded with gas. So there is a tension and this tension gets an extra. And because this extra gone, that's how you can actually extend so quickly. Yes. So I have a few tricks to understand this, but what I want from the guys, don't go straight in and think about getting smaller and go soft, because then after 5 bumps you are flying out because it hits you smaller and smaller.

Yeah.

Have a certain position, have a, have a tension, and try to use that little turns and the little slides to scrape, scrape, scrapes to adjust your speed. And we always start at the beginning, just literally slide in the, in the hole and turn and slide in the hole on the inside of the bump, like, like visualizing and also feel how much space you have, where to turn the ski, not too early, not too late.

Yeah.

And then, then these are already like run line, straight line, and The rest is combination.

It made me think that some of the best success I've had with people getting them better at moguls was in Japan where we had access to a mogul tank, like Mogul Waves. And at this stage, just like you being able to start the Wedge Christie one, this— the Mogul Wave is almost like the easy version of learning the straight line because you take away the the angles and you just have to really work on people. Yeah, exactly. Like not staying in the compressed suspension, actually getting the suspension long again and the timing of it. And yeah, yeah. Do you have access to—

do you use—

do you ever get mogul waves built at resorts?

No, you would love it. It's, it's too long, you know, like what they do. The thing is too long. I've, I've been in Japan. I saw your video as well. I was like, yeah, like in Japan you have all this kind of terrain and access to actually practice so many things, but they have also a culture. And the culture means like you see this mogul lines or mogul fields, and if that gets really chopped off or scary, then people just stop and they slide it.

They fix it.

They fix it. They shape it. They make a nice environment to learn. And that's moment that is in Europe a little bit missing.

You know what, here's my, here's my, this is me talking to all the, uh, ski resort owners in the world, big ones. If you're spending so much money on terrain parks, uh, I think it wouldn't be that hard to put in and maintain a mogul wave line for adults who don't want to hit boxes and massive jumps. It's not going to cost as much as having this— do you know what I mean? Like, just put that in a terrain park. I really think they're missing out. The people that often buy the kids' ski passes to go to the terrain park are the adults, and it'd be nice if they had some mogul waves to practice in a safe way, in a progression for them. And then, then, then the slopes, the groomed slopes would be safer because not everyone would be skiing groomed slopes all the time. They could go off and ski moguls, we'd spread out and have an interesting time. Anyway, that's my rant.

Yeah, but it's funny that you mentioned that because, uh, like last year I started my, my, my ski school with my business partner here, the Cold Candy. And because I worked so much in the last years in these lines, now we have the chance actually to manage the mogul field. So since last season, we have on the Kitzsteinhorn a mogul field. What is basically 5, 3 to 5 lines like this. Yeah. Now, and now the resort investing in this one to actually do something for the, for the ski instructors, for the rookies, for people who just want to do something. Because the glacier itself, when it's open, is, uh, it's, it's flat. Yeah, it's boring. Yeah, some point like, it's never boring, you know, it's never boring, but This is one point. The— what I realized in the last 2 years, uh, I had different kind of camps in, in the past, and November ended up being a short-term camp or the Mogul Camp. The reason, exactly what you just mentioned, there are 10,000 people on 3 tea bars and a gondola And the resort is amazing. They, they put so much capacity in there that there's no lines at the T-bar, there is no queue at the gondola, but that means everyone is on the slopes at the same time. And, and that's when I like just book my line in the Mogul field. That 60 turns is mine. Yeah, nobody crossing me. And that's when we can actually work on. So that got to the point that now we have the chance to do it 5 times. Yeah, so because that would be actually— that, that would be the nice point when, when we have like 5 lines, it's actually then it's a mogul field.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

You can do stuff like changing lines or, or skiing at the turn shape, and that's more like the natural bump skiing.

Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, I think that, I mean, yeah, I, there are some places that are, that are doing that. I know in Australia, Thredbo, uh, when we have a problem in Australia with just lack of snow and space for it, but they are trying at times to put it in. We have a mogul line that, you know, usually 3 lines, and they pay someone to do some maintenance on it, which is, which is good. But I know a lot of places don't. Don't have that capacity anyway. I wish there was more investment in that. I think it would— I think they would cover a bunch of good reasons. Safety, more options, like you said, early season, you know, not everyone crowding. Yeah, some good things.

The lack of snow means also there is no off-piste. So everyone is on the slopes and it is a nice challenge. It's fun. Yeah, yeah, really challenge yourself. It's fun once you have the first experience. I can do this. It's fun.

Okay, can you give us some, maybe any stories of, of clients you've had that have turned from, oh my goodness, I'm terrified of moguls, to now they really love them? Because I would, I would love, you know, so many people think moguls, oh, my knees. You know, you see on Instagram, oh, that hurts my knees watching it. I, I don't totally agree. Sure, if you have really bad knees in the first place, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Yes.

And any good success stories from clients going from— yeah, can you— any ones that come to the top of your mind?

It's, it's, it's funny that, uh, uh, when I started the— this, like, say, Mogul and Bump Camp ended up in this line, and, and I developed— it's evolving still, like, what can I teach, how can I teach, and what is everything possible But of course it got viral at some point that people come in, they are scared, and they leave the first 4 days that they can actually ski down 60 turns where they say like, I never thought that I can do this one. I had ski instructor rookies, he said like, if you tell me that after 2 hours I'm gonna ski down this line with a stem turn without poles, I say, you crazy. So it gives people confidence. And from that point, they want to get more. And of course, I see the guys, other, like, we have really teams and clubs. They working like World Cup mogul skiers, that kind of technique. And I see my clients signing up there and they go with this tiny skis, short poles, and they practicing that one as well. So that means like it opens up a new world.

Yeah.

Just because, okay, if I can manage this, I can manage that one as well. So, and that's, that's the goal. It's not always the goal that people coming to, for me every time, it's so many things out there that you can learn.

Yeah.

And, but, but to see them like, okay, from the, sorry, from the shit scared to actually sign up to a, a mogul course. That's it. That's, that's, that feels good for me.

Yeah, yeah. No, and I think it proves to the point that, that you, you just need a methodology. Like you said, you need the solutions to these problems, and then you can focus on the solution, practice it, and you will get better. Like, humans do triple backflips. Like, we, you know, we just need little steps little bit more, a little bit more. If the step's too big, we, we get scared. And you've, uh, managed to really do a great job of developing small steps for people.

Yeah, like, as long you are in the fight-flight mode, it's not gonna work. And I was always with everything, like, break down to the smallest details that I have the chance to go through the steps and realize where I'm stuck. And but for that, I need the smallest details.

Yeah. Well, do you know what? I've, I also wanted to spend some time. So I'm that mogul section really, really helpful. I think a lot of people are going to get a lot out of that. And I would say if you want to really have it structured and it's hard to, you know, you've got the overview from, from Gary here, but he's got a course I'll link down below so then people can learn to do this, uh, themselves and know each of the steps. But Gary, I, I've loved your transitions in a lot of your turns when I watch you on, on Instagram. And, and two things I love, uh, short turns and carving, you just have a very good felt sense of like managing the pressure and being very— being able to get very low but not back seat, and, um, you look very balanced. Yeah, in, in this transition point, have you practiced a lot of like being in a low position? Do you know what I mean? In your carve turns, like you have this really low, and then your ski tips go way, way, way out and wide, and then they come back under you, and like this bendy stretchy thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Did you— is that a deliberate thing? Was there someone that kind of taught you about that, or a style you saw and you went, I want to practice and get good at that?

That's— that was a style. Like, I was like, got aware of, uh, of, of, of the Japanese. And, uh, and also because in Austria is everything like up, up forward, up forward.

Yeah.

And then, then some point they just, okay, reduce the, the vertical movement. But it's— nobody talks about, yeah, what what to change actually to reduce that. So, so, or not many, uh, information about that. So I literally, I found, okay, Japanese technique I like. I like that I have long legs. I want to show that they are out there. I, I'm 182. I wanna—

I—

this, this is what my unique selling point will be, that my legs are out there. And my hip is close to the ground. And in the transition, I was like, yeah, but if I go too far up, then it takes time to get low again, and it doesn't feel really like stabilized or really in balance. So I started to work, yes, a lot on really getting low and small with the 90-degree— and doesn't need too much to go to the World Cup skiers and see Marcel Hirscher after the release just flying the ski hovering and the knee is higher than the hip in a slalom gate. I was like, hmm, okay, that makes sense because actually the pressure is released and he used that reserve to actually get on the side. And the farther the ski away is from me in a lower center of mass, the more edge angle I get.

And the more you can carve it around early. Yeah.

Yeah. And carve around early and shorten the radius what the ski has as much as possible. So I worked, yes, I worked a lot on that one.

But also— So you did a lot of bend stretch turns at like different speeds, like overdoing it? Would you say?

Yeah. Yeah. Like I started to overdoing it and you know, when you learn something and you see, like if I look back my videos, the weird styles and I know exactly why, like you always jump to the other side of the horse a little bit. It means like you start to feel it and then you start to exaggerate it and it's need time to find your, your comfort zone. Like, okay, what makes actually sense?

Yes. Can I pause you there? I think that is, I want people to just, I think that's a very useful thing to be aware of when learning something new. And people often stop partway through getting there because they feel maybe embarrassed, almost like you're doing something a bit strange and weird. And so, people go, oh, that's too out of there. These, my friend is saying, why are you sitting back? You're saying, You just go through it because I, this is, I did the same thing with, I was trying to get really fast, like 3 turns on one mogul, and I looked like an idiot, just arms and wiggling my bum everywhere. But after like 2 seasons, it starts going away, getting better, getting better. So anyway, back to your story. I, I think you have to push through looking silly.

Like, like, yes. And that's what, that's, yeah, okay, 2 points. The one is that You have to know your, your boundaries. Means like, how far can I go with something that it makes no sense anymore, if this punishes me, or, or it's not working, or I cannot manage anymore. So once you go in an extreme, then you know this is the maximum. So where is actually economically what fits of my body and my muscles and my movements to actually manage this? But this, this is a game, like play with it, like go in an extreme, go butt down and, and, and feel that how much range you have. What is the maximal range of the flexion?

What is the, the extension is always easier, but, but the flexion is a hard one, isn't it?

Yeah, actually, like, like, like it's from the really beginning, you think you're low and it's nothing.

No, you're not even 90. You're not even 90. Yeah.

And exactly this. So you have to, and it feels weird and you, and people think it looks weird. That's why it's easy to, easy to sign up for a camp because this guy told me to do that. I have to do that. Like, like, and I literally think that it makes sense that people are buying in something and they do silly things, but it's in their benefit. But if I tell them, okay, let's go out there and do it alone, no way.

Yeah, I know.

I don't want to embarrass myself like doing this here. But that's why the technique camps are really nice because you have a few people together, laughing each other and each other and, and trying things like the sitting turn, like falling, like body carve, like all the things. But, but it's alone is also like not necessarily safe if nobody watching that someone comes from the— like, you know, is there so many safety aspects to be in a group and do silly things. Uh, yeah, so that's definitely my, my way of learning the contrast. The contrast, range of motion, or what actually I have. And, and the transition is definitely something I, I worked a lot because we learned—

you can see it—

worked a lot on left leg turn, right leg turn. And the turn is actually the stable part. You have the force, you are in balance, you travel on the ski, you adjust a little bit, but you, you have everything there and the turn is done. And this stability you want to leave and get entering the next turn. And in between, what happens, that's actually the key. How can I change the turn shape, the early edging, the pressure, the weight shift? There's so many things how to approach to get the next turn right and done and early stable, because on that moment I have an outside force. Acting me. So I have to create that first, and once I create, I have to deal with it. So what I cooked, I have to eat. So basically, I'm not cooking. So basically, that's the idea of the transition, that there is so much to do and try. And there's different way, up high, up forward, inward, with extension or without extension, pedal flexion extension or flex boots and allow the knee to come toward the chest. These are all tools you fit in your skiing.

Was there someone, I know you said the Japanese, Koreans really inspired you with this and then Marcel Hirscher. Did you have any other skiers that really helped you like feel something new? Like, can you— or even can you remember when you really got out of the awkward phase of like going too far and you're like, ah, and any insight, any, any insights there? Like, I guess I'm asking, were there any little secret moments, any awesome like light bulb moments for you for how you like to make a like a really dynamic low transition carving?

Well, like, that's, that's more like a story of how to pick up information or how, okay, and how, and drills. Like, I'm like, you do drills and you try to get out something from the drill. So it's always on purpose. And why I travel to Japan, Korea, wherever, it doesn't matter. Seeing technical skiers doing weird stuff, like the low transition or also the single linked single turns, when you basically do a full carving turn and you don't drop in the next turn, you basically make the turn and then you traverse the slope with a low position, like 90 degrees, hands forward and try to just flat the ski and don't make any direction. And how long can you keep the ski like going across the slope on flat until you basically just, because of the gravity, you just drop in? And, and that made me feel like, okay, it's not about shift and shift, it's about you have the 50-50 phase and then you build like grip and then you immediately get the feedback from the ski. Once you have grip, the ski reacts, and then you build up the position and the turn, and you push downhill yourself, for example, in a carving turn. So it's a lot of, like, looking around and being open to try weird stuff. And yeah, yeah.

Did someone give you that idea? That, that one to play with specifically?

Like, as I told you, I skied a lot with Richie. Yeah, okay. And, and he was for me like the connection between the Japanese technique and, and, and how to break it down. But, uh, but it's not only him. Like, like in Korea, I have a good friend who explained how Koreans look at the, the technical skiing, at what they go to And, and to do that, I realized I have to be in a lower position, otherwise it's not working. Like, they really on the, on the inside knee work very much. Uh, also like the fore-inward movement, like the early hip alignment, and I mean like the rotation of the hip top of the turn into the new turn, and progressively much progressive, more progressive than ever before to actually get quicker, ready to take the, the, the force, the load, the, the G-force what I get. So there's small things, but there's really a, an eye-opener and, and changing moments when it starts to work.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So things like that, that that willingness, the curiosity of seeing weird things. And if someone really good is doing it, there must be something in it. And you're going to go— you've taken that and taken that drill and broken it down and worked on it a lot until you discovered what the, the cool new little feeling in there is that you can then put into your skiing.

That's why I like the, the Interski Congress idea, that all the nations coming together and you can learn from everyone, like, okay, what's the approach there? How to, how to, how to do that? Why are they teaching this this way or that way? And there's so many things involved, like, uh, what kind of conditions they have. Like, in Japan you have always soft conditions, uh, yeah, you, you, you see that how they explain stuff, that yeah, you can do that because you have always the top 5 centimeters on the snow is soft. Yeah, try to do it in Austria on the ice or in Italy on the compact groomers is a little bit different. That's Yeah, so all these differences is really, really nice to actually implement in your skiing, practicing, training, teaching, whatever to, to, to actually you do with it. It's just nice to build in and try.

So Gary, what, uh, is there anything you would say, want to say that I haven't asked about to maybe start bringing the, our chat to an end? Anything worth mentioning that we, that we haven't covered, or you thought, Tom, you should have asked about this?

Uh, you have time? Yeah, because you had the, the question about the telemark.

Yeah, okay, well, this is something we share in, in common a bit. We both telemark. I don't really do it, I haven't done it in years. Yeah, so tell, tell us about telemarking for you. What, what—

so there was a question on your list, like, like if, if telemark skiing, uh, what I'm doing with it. And I think that's changed a lot in my learning experience and skiing as well. So I started telemarking in the mid-'90s, and because I was a young instructor and someone called me like, "Hey, if you are that good, this is it. It's a lidded boot here. It is a 3-pin binding and go for it." And that time came in the first carving skis. So we've been the first one who actually mounted like slalom skis skis with 12-meter radius, with 10-centimeter riser plates, and all this. But basically what the Telemark gives you, that the freestyle is much more freedom, but it's also because of the balance, it's much more movement freedom, but it's not that stable. So you have to have the feeling on time what you actually do timing-wise, pressure-wise, position, active dorsiflexion, edge-to-edge, like big toe side edge, little toe side edge. And because of the, the bending and flexing boot, you have so much feedback from your foot sole. Wasn't it— when alpine skiing is not possible, but once you have it, then you realize that in alpine skiing you do exactly the same thing.

You, you—

Receptors, yeah. your sensation is just a different level. What actually has to happen in the ski boot, how you build tension around your ankle, how to tip the ski, how you roll the ski, where the pressure goes, why are you on the heel, which, what does it mean that you are on the heel but not on the calf pressure, you have dorsiflexion, like all this is with a basic telemark gives you so much, then it opens up a new world in alpine skiing.

So what's interesting, what you've made me realize is, because I don't know if you know this, but I telemarked before I alpine, so I was— alpine was all the new thing. So all these things you're saying to me, I was like, I'm realizing I took a little bit for granted in alpine because, like you said, the telemark stuff, like, I had to figure out to try and carve this ski but not have my heel locked in, how to get heel pressure but be— but get the front of the ski also engaged. Yes, it's so true. Is that if like, if you really want to learn about feeling what you got to do with your ankles and feet, I guess Telemark will teach you pretty quickly, or you'll do something pretty quickly. Yeah.

Yeah, like I have programs where we ski with racers and it's all about like how to maintain the dorsiflexion and the foot sole pressure or how to keep the heels down. And that's actually the old equipment, when it was even trickier because it pulled up your heel.

I know.

Yeah, the new equipment is keeping down there, but then how to maintain the shin tension and how to maintain the dorsiflexion that much that you actually feel where you are, to the point that how can you play with it. Like, I'm gonna, like, you know the mogul course now, but there comes a video where I do short turns on the telemark equipment parallel to show actually how much time and how much activation you have to release the heel. So basically in a short turn, actively heeling up and the heel comes off the ski. But that for me is important because that was the time when I realized how quick you have to be back with your heel not to faceplant that one.

Yeah, that's interesting. I like that.

Because basically what happens if you pull back, you have a hovering face and you do whatever you want. But once the outside force coming and it's, it's, uh, the, uh, it has an effect on you, that means the ski will be pushed. So if your feet is not solidly with the foot sole down, then it bends another way, then it's a face plant with Telemark. It basically goes forward. So that teached me a lot that where is actually the middle of the ski and how to keep the pressure and on time back on the ski, like the weight shift, how much time I have to actually hover from one turn to the other one, from one pressure to the next pressure, and practice like in that time I can do whatever I want. Like, I— but the time frame is exactly there. If you wait, you're done. Like, say, yeah, and then yes, I brought it in the, in the moguls as well, that That was fun.

So just so I make sure people understand that, yeah, you're, you're using Telemark equipment because that allows more freedom to really exaggerate not having the heel down.

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. So you're using that in the transition, floating the heels up, like being in this hovering phase, and then just when when it changes from that down. Is that right?

Yes, it's correct in a way. The thing is with this floating the heel is that in the Telemark boot you are buckled on fully. So actually what there happens is it's fully on, so the heel is fixed in the boot itself and it moves away from the ski because of the binding. Yes. Yeah, so it's not that I push down the forefoot or something.

No, no.

It's actually pulling back the ski. So the whole forefoot pressure I get in a dorsiflexion because I pull underneath me. Yes. And that's when it comes to a passive pressure, let's say, because the ski tip is there. That means the ski tip pushing actually on the forefoot.

On the forefoot, yep.

Yeah, so, and that's created by pulling back and engaging the hamstring and the tendon.

Yeah.

So that's the idea. So in the Telemark, the heel is floating completely differently, like it's because there is like range of motion with the binding much more.

Yes, yeah, yeah. Not the range of motion inside the boot, Yeah, you're playing with— yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree with— yeah, I know. Yep, I've been playing with that, not on my Telemark skis because I haven't for a while, but in my alpine skiing, this idea of dorsiflexion. But, um, yeah, release more freedom of the tail, uh, at a certain point to be able to move it and place it and, and then, and then have— and what I like about that too is I like then when it comes down, there's more of a ramp up instead of a— it's more boom, just like coming down, like in a sprinting, bam, bam, bam, that kind of feeling. And, and yeah, because you can kind of load your, your body as well as the skis, it feels like, with that.

Like, like, uh, because, because you pull back, it's basically that the tip is engaged, you bend the tip of the ski, that you bend the ski front of the binding. That's only possible with the Alpine gear. Yeah, because the Telemark doesn't give you this. No, but that was for me the, the, the eye-opener, that because you can actively bend the tip, it means the landing you can adjust when you actually get there and how much time you have there how much time longer I have with the alpine ski because, because the heel is fixed to the binding. So I actually can bend the ski and like landing on a trampoline, it's already the landing itself is like building up. Yeah, with the, with, with the Telemark is nothing there, like it's just clapping.

And this is, yeah, if you are on time, you are on the heel.

If you are too late, you are on your nose. That That's simple. Yeah. But yeah, this is more about pulling back, push forward, pulling back, drive forward the feet, the foot sole.

Yep. I can now imagine your short turns. I can really see that in your short turns. Very dolphin-y kind of style movement. But with the lower transition, looks really cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, I don't want to, uh, keep you too much longer, but Gary, thank you so much for, for your time. I really hope people have got a lot out of this and are inspired to take on some more moguls. Now I think people listening are probably going to go, how do I ski with this guy? I'll leave some links down, but can you please give, give a shout out to your, uh, your ski school and your camps and maybe, uh, your website? So people can come find you and come do some crazy weird, uh, drills and get better at skiing with you.

So my website is snowsportsgary.com, but if you type my name, then you're gonna find me. I have some camps around the globe, basically from Austria, Italy to New Zealand in the summer. So happy to see you there. And, uh, yes, I've started to build kind of online courses. They are like detailed progressions to different things. Now the Mogul field building was more like necessary to do because it helps a lot of people. So I hope to see you there. And to shout out, I decided to make like an offer. All of you who listen to this, there was once a time, a lifetime access pass. Yes. If you, if you listen to this, then till, I don't know, we talk about when the, the, the podcast goes online, but I leave you like a good 10 days. If you sign up, then you can have this lifetime access to the course. Yeah. All right. As a founder, founder access, because once like now the first module is ready. The next module goes online next week, but there's so much to do that it's definitely going to be on another price track at some point, but not for you. So I hope I can convince you a little bit in this one.

Nice. Yeah. Awesome. And then you've got Cold Candy as well.

Is that— Cold Candy is in Austria now. We tried to build like a a brand to, to, to do these technical camps from the very basics, like ski school, technical camps, and also the ski instructor training. And we have now New Zealand, of course, uh, we go to Georgia, we go different places to basically, uh, enjoy skiing and experience a lot more in this industry and skiing.

Awesome. Hey, uh, my final question to you before we say goodbye is if there was anyone living or dead that you could go skiing with and learn from, who would it be?

Wow, well, that's the tricky question because I did this. I'm living a life where I basically can go and ski with people. So I had a chance to ski with Takao Maruyama. I have the ski, of course, Richie. I had many good skiers in Austria around me, Benny Wörgl, from the young guys to the older ones. So if I have to point the name, actually, I would like to go to Italy. There are some really cool guys Nicolo Colombi. I would like to, like to ski. He doesn't know about this. Yeah, first time, but, but I would like to ski with him at some point because he's a, is an amazing racer. And I, from Italy, I had the chance to ski with Stefano Belingheri. Amazing guy, amazing skier. And all the projected stuff, you know, like Riley a good friend of mine, he was here to ski a few days. It's— I mean, I'm really privileged to have the chance to ski with good skiers. So there's no one name I could—

yes, it's just the next, the next one. Yeah, that is awesome. Yeah, you can see it. It's—

mean, if— and I hope we ski some point together as well, not only online.

Yes. Yeah, I hope so too. Well, I'll be in New Zealand just for a little bit. It's a family holiday. But in July, I'm not sure if you're going to be at Rookies then, but I'll be over there mid-July. Might be a bit early.

Yeah, I'm just flying in on the 17th.

Okay, okay. Gary, thank you so much for your time. And yeah, good luck with the winter season in New Zealand. And yeah, let's look forward to that day we get to make some turns together.

Thank you very much and have a good time, guys.

Hey, thanks so much for listening. That episode has got me pumped up to go out and continue working on my mogul skiing. It's given me some, some new ideas, some inspiration, so thank you so much, Gary. Hey, just a final thing, just a shout out to my website, Big Picture Skiing. I've got so many videos on there all around carving short turns, body preparation, mobility, as well as mogul skiing. I've got a bunch of tutorials there on the way I approach teaching moguls. So just if you're really keen, you really want to improve, then I've set up a system, a process, so you get information from the one place to cover everything about skiing. BigPictureSkiing.com, and podcast listeners can use the code PODCAST to get 20% off any membership. Okay, alright, thanks so much for listening, see you next time, bye.