Narrow/Low Volume Feet Ski Boots and Binding Ramp Angle - Brent Amsbury’s Advice

Do you have narrow feet, or do you own multiple pairs of skis and are not sure if there are differences between the binding mount height, so the toe and the heel height? Well, you're in luck because on today's Big Picture Skiing podcast, we're going to talk with Brent Armsbury, owner of Park City Ski Boot, and he has some answers and some information around ideal ski boots for people with narrow, skinny, low-volume feet So he gives a recommended list of all the boots he knows of that would suit you, as well as other little strategies you can use to help get a better fit for those narrow feet. Now also, Brent made a discovery with his own bindings and boot setup before a recent trip to Japan. And what he discovered was between bindings, if you're not aware, a lot of manufacturers and, and types of bindings change the height of the toe and the heel. And this changes how much the, the whole entire boot, so not just the sole of your foot, uh, how it sits, but the entire boot will rock forward or be flatter based on the ramp angle of the binding. So he talks about discovering a really good breakthrough there and finding his ideal angle and setup for his anatomy. So stay tuned to the end for that one. There's some really great insights he gives around that., as well as finishing up with some interesting stuff around liners and getting the right kind of liner if you're getting an aftermarket liner to work with the boot. Not all liners will work with particular boots very well, so there's some really important info there. And I think even people that work in ski shops might, uh, be interested to learn from that because there's a little anecdotal story that someone got a lot better by getting the right liner in their boots. Quickly before we begin, just a shout out to bigpictureskiing.com, my website, and also an app for Apple and Android now. It's a resource for skiers wanting to get better at moguls, short turns, carving, everything skiing related. Perhaps it's going to help you pass your next instructor exam, perhaps it's just going to make you enjoy your favorite thing in the world, skiing, even more. So there are over 100 videos on there on all these topics, as well as the option to do the academy, which is training and online coaching for the whole season or half the season, and we send videos back and forth, work with people, and are making some great progress with their skiing all through the Big Picture Academy. If you're interested with that, you can find out more in the Academy tab of the Big Picture Skiing website. There's a free 7-day trial to check out if this is all for you. And now, without further ado, let's get into the podcast with Brent Armsbury.

Brent, I think in general, in fitting yourself in a pair of ski boots, you want to start with something that is a little more of a snug fit to begin with, because it's always easier to go outwards and make more space. But there are people out there with low volume, skinny, narrow feet that find it difficult. And I think some of the podcasts and interviews we've done in the past People have often commented, yes, yes, but what about a narrow foot? So I wanted to ask you today about your insights and your recommendations for people with narrow feet, low volume feet. What can they do to get a really good sort of performance fit? Because I think, I guess we're also probably talking a little bit around those realms. These people want to improve, they really want to make good turns on, on the hill. So having a good snug fit is important.

Yeah. Um, narrow feet are probably some of the toughest feet to fit because narrow means lower volume in general. I've seen narrow feet that have high arches, and, um, and sometimes narrow feet also have some unique calf shapes and things like that. But in general, If you're narrow in your foot, you're lower in the instep, you're narrow at the ankle, you're narrow at the, your tib, tibia and fibula. And so you're just kind of narrow all the way through. And finding a boot can be really difficult or finding the foundation to a boot and finding all those pieces to put together can be really difficult. You're right. It's easier to push stuff out than to try to shrink things in. And some of the boots that work for these type of feet, they— you can't find them in shops very easily. All right, a lot of ski shops don't carry what I call the ULV category, which is ultra low volume.

All right, so that's new to me.

Yeah, so There's racing boots, right? Like, a racing boot is ultra low volume because it's 92 or 93 millimeters across the ball of the foot. That's really, really narrow. But racing boots don't really work for a lot of, a lot of people because they have different angles. They're really aggressive in their stance. And let's say you're just kind of trying to improve your skiing. Right? You're maybe an intermediate moving to advanced. I think it'd be pretty crazy, like, hey, I gotta put you in a World Cup racing boot because you have narrow feet, and that's just not gonna work. It'd be tough to put— get them on and get them off and try to stay warm in these things. So there are boots out there that fit this ultra-low volume category better. Than other, other boots out there. And if you go to a shop, you'll notice that most of the, the boots sold are what's called mid-volume boots. I mean, most of the wall is made up of stuff that's easy, right? That middle of the road, easy for the general fit. But the ultra low volume boots, or even low volume boots, right, there's less of them. And then ultra low volume boots are like, where are they? Where are those to be found? So, so I'm going to name off some boots that fit the category and explain why these fit this category. We'll just go in alphabetical order. So we've got two boots from Atomic, right? The Atomic Ultrahawks and the Atomic Redster CS. Now, the Ultrahawks is a boot that's out there pretty much in droves. You can find it in a lot of shops. It's their low-volume boot. But it meets my criteria because it's a little lower in the instep, a little smaller in the ankle and in the leg shaft than most low-volume boots out there.

Okay, very specific. Yeah, because I would say— I'm just going to say at that point, I know a client the other day, looking at them, just their leg in the shell, the throat, the top of the, the top of the calf was so voluminous. Compared to the leg. So knowing specifically that area in that boot is, is narrow and low volume is very—

that's really helpful. Yeah. And then the other boot in their line is the Redster CS, and this comes from their racing line, but the CS stands for Club Sport, so it's actually a little bit wider boot than their World Cup boot, which is the STI. Team issue. So the, the Rester CS is like a '96 lasted boot. It has some of the, the, a lot of the narrowness of the World Cup boot, but it has a stance that's more accessible. All right, so if you're a mid-advanced skier looking for an ultra low volume boot, uh, the CS might fit that. Now for an intermediate, I don't think the CS is great. It's too, a little too racy. But if you need to get your carving game on and you need a narrower fitting boot, the Redster CS seems to, to work better in that, in their, in their line. So, uh, that's a, that's a, a pretty good, uh, boot. And you can find the Redster CS, uh, you know, a lot of places, right? You might find it better online than you do in, in shops. So from Dalbello, We've got the DRX.

Quickly on that one, can I ask, in that Redster size-wise, will it go right down to like a 22.5?

Yes, they used to make a 21.5 down to the Redster CS, so you could get it in a 110 flex at least down to 22 and probably up to 29. So the CS is actually made as a really broad range sizing. Okay, cool. And that goes for the Dalbello, uh, DRS as well. So the DRS is kind of this sneaky little part of Dalbello's lineup because you think of Dalbello and you think of their wider, more chunkier fitting boots, even the Krypton, right? It was like, oh, that's a low volume boot. Not really, because it fits a really wide range of feet because of their liner. But the DRS, there's the DRS World Cup And then there's the DRS. So the DRS is their 98mm lasted boot. But again, compared to other 98mm lasted boots out there, it is snugger. I mean, it's tucked in in a lot of places that makes it feel a lot narrower. That boot, you can get it down to a 75 flex. 75, they make it in the 90, they make it in 110, 120, 130, 140. I mean, they, they make that boot in a lot of different sizes and a lot of different flexes. So it's this big wide range of the Dalbello lineup that does really well with narrower feet, and it can, it can be a real tool for a boot fitter to try to fit somebody with the narrower foot type. One of my favorites is the Fischer Curve GT. This is a '96 lasted boot. That Fischer came out with. They're repositioning the boot next year as a 98 last boot, but it really fits closer to the 96. It's a very snug fitting boot. Now, the only thing with the Fischer GT is that it doesn't have a particularly narrow top, right? So you got this really narrow lower, and then when you come up the leg shaft, it's like, whoa, there's some space up there. So, like, if you have a bigger calf but you pencil down to this narrow foot, it might be a real thumbs-up winner for you. They make it in the ladies version. They make it down to 95 flex and up to 130 flex and 22 up to probably 29.5 or 30.5 for the guys. So a broad range. Now, the next one is kind of an oddball because you wouldn't think it would make the list, but it's the K2 Revolver. This is the old Full Tilt boot. All right, now this is the old Reichli Flexon Comp. This boot is ancient, right, by design. But when they designed that boot, that boot was kind of like one of the original low-volume boots, and it, with its wrap liner and old-school shape, it's actually a really narrow boot. And the Revolver has this, this really old classic narrow straight shape to it, which works well for narrow feet, especially narrow legs. That wrap liner can really narrow down, right? It's got this sort of Cinnabon liner that can narrow way down when it's heat molded and can work for, for skinnier legs and, and skinnier ankles and skinnier feet, especially if you got kind of a high instep, a high arch skinny feet. Foot, this boot might work really well because of the 3-piece construction. It has more room over the top of the foot, but it's still narrow on the side. So oddly enough, that boot makes, makes my list. Um, then there's the Lang RS. Now you're like, okay, Lang RS, that's the same thing as the RX, like an x-ray. No, the RS and the RX share similar boot, uh, like the internal shape, but the RS comes with a much firmer, much denser liner and much snugger in the heel. So their freeride version of it really fits wider when you actually put it on, where the RS, which is more technical boot, fits narrower even though it's the same boot internally. So because of the liner difference, it feels a lot snugger width all the way around. So RS, you know, it's a 97 last, but in that RS moniker, it, it's a much snugger, narrower fitting boot. We, we work with a lot of people who need a narrower fitting boot in that model and are able to, to take up some room with that. Another one that's really doesn't get a lot of attention is the Tecnica Firebird. Now you've probably heard the Tecnica Mach 1 LV, which is their 98 lasted, and that's a pretty low volume boot. Like, it's sneaky low volume. A lot of people put on the Tecnica Mach 1 and they go, whoa, this boot is really comfortable. And then they go out and go, oh man, I got hot spots all over this thing because it's really pretty narrow. But the Firebird is a modified, uh, Nordica Doberman. And so this boot, um, comes from its old Doberman roots, and it's a 95 last, so it's even narrower than the Mach 1. Um, they make it in a 90 flex, they make it in a low cuff, they make it 110, 130, and a wide range of sizes. So if you're looking for, again, something like the Redster CS, which is this high-performance boot for a narrower foot. And even ladies who need a lower cuff can get fit well in their, their lower cuff 90 version of the Firebird. It's a— and again, it's a boot that's not really easy to find, but it is narrow. I mean, it is snug.

It is snug. Brent, what about the volume in the cuff on the Technica? Can you speak to that, say, compared to the Atomic, for example?

So the Technica Firebird is actually pretty snug in the upper, upper cuff, where the, the LV version, the Mach 1, is a little bit bigger, understandably so. But the Firebird is definitely even smaller in the, in the upper cuff portion, and I would say it's even maybe marginally a little smaller than the Redster. Okay, interesting. Yeah. Yeah, the liner they provide for it is actually pretty darn snug in the upper cuff. So it's a fairly narrow boot in the upper leg shaft of the boot. Okay, okay.

Yeah.

Is that now the list?

Well, you know, the two other honorable mentions are like this, the new Salomon Alpha has a fairly narrow shape. And then of course the Nordica Doberman series is a fairly narrow shape. They make a World Cup version, they make a more of a, of a standard 98 version. But these boots here don't have quite as wide a range in terms of what you can get out of them. But they're both honorable mentions. I mean, they're definitely low volume boots. That are available out there, especially the Salomon Alpha has gotten just introduced this year and it's, they're kind of expanding that boot and it's, it's getting more popular in terms of the reception for it. They didn't make the boot top of the foot in the Salomon Alpha, so if for the truly, truly low volume narrow foot, may not be perfect. But it is a low-volume fitting boot and it is very snug in the back end of the boot and in the upper leg shaft. But more than just— yeah, more than just the boot though. I mean, the boot is just one thing, but there's more componentry to fitting a narrow foot than just the boot. I mean, the shell is one place to start, but the liner is another really important aspect to getting a good snug fit around a low-volume anatomy. ZipFit liners can work really, really well because they are thicker back in the back end of the, of the ankle pocket. They take up volume. They're very snug fitting, and you have a choice of volumes with ZipFit liners. You can get a thicker version, a thinner version, and so low-volume ankles can benefit from like something like a zip fit. Excuse me. Then there's foam injection. Now, a lot of fitters don't do foam injection anymore, but a foam-injected liner can work really well with a low-volume narrow fit because the walls of that liner actually come in as you foam. So the boot actually becomes narrower. If there's, you know, there's a little space in there, the foam's going to find it and fill it right up. So foam injection can sometimes really be a great, great way to go for a very narrow, low-volume foot. You got to have a low-volume shell, then a foam injection liner, a well-made footbed to kind of capture all the, the heel base contours and the midfoot contours, but a foam can work really well. But you just got to find somebody who's willing to do a foam, all right? I still do foam, 40 years of doing foam, but, and they generally tend to be those narrow, low-volume feet that I foam inject because it does exactly that. It brings the walls in around your foot and can work really, really well.

On that one, I remember I had a really good pair of foam liners done by by Matt Lyle. And, and yeah, and is there something with, with acetone? I seem to remember doing that, injecting or putting that on certain parts that were maybe too dense. So I did my own little adjustments after it was kind of really firm everywhere. Then he mentioned you could do that to sort of soften because it basically disintegrates the foam.

Is that true? It breaks it down. It breaks the structure. Acetone injection breaks down the bonding of the foam bubbles, and so it breaks them apart, and it doesn't powder it, but it kind of releases them and makes it softer. So acetoning on PU foam can help soften areas that become too tight, too restrictive, and overfilled in certain areas.

Yeah, okay. Can you do that with just about any foam, or is it specifically—

No, no, foam, a foam-injected liner only, because if you take acetone and you put it inside a standard liner, it'll actually peel away the adhesives, and some of that foam will just melt. It'll just disappear. Yeah, you could ruin the liner really fast with, uh, with an acetone injection. Yeah, so we only do it with PU foam-injected liners, do we use that technique?

Yeah, but I felt that worked really well to get it just an after the fit, some, some help in just where there's maybe a little too much pressure and too, too pushed in by the foam.

Yeah.

Okay, great. And then, and then people who don't have the funds for those options, a zip fit and a foam-injected liner.

It's good old padding, right? Going out and getting some firm density foam, you can find it at ski shops. They carry many of the, like in my back shop, we have a soft density, mid-density, and a firm density. You get some of the mid-density and the firmer density, and you can cut out shapes, right? And you can put these shapes on your lighter to tuck in areas where you feel there's too much room, especially in the width area, back around the heel base, the upper cuff, you can take squares of this and it comes with usually a double-backed sticky tape. You can kind of find where you like it and then go back and re-adhere it with some contact cement. But sometimes it just takes a while, like maybe a couple weeks of, you know, padding and skiing and then cutting some away and then putting some back on to find that perfect balance. It's probably the, you know, it's kind of the,— it's a less expensive route. It's not perfect, but for the first time you'll actually feel like you can actually get the shell closed snug enough around your leg shaft to feel like you're being held firmly in place. And so it's a lot less expensive, and then you can save up your pennies for, you know, the more elegant solutions down the road, but at least you're getting the job done.

Yeah, I would say, do I— just because I'm a high-performance skiing kind of person and people listen to this, if they're, if they're into that, I'll always remember when I spoke to Ron LeMaster about liners and him saying, I mean, they act as, as a filter, like a— they dull things down in a way. So the more you go into foam and filling things, you are going to reduce the sensitivity and feel you get through, through the shell. And so I guess that's why it's really good if you can find the, the snuggest fit first, and then you're not really dealing with putting lots of filters in place which are going to reduce the sensitivity you get from feedback from the snow.

Right. I mean, it's not a great idea to take like, oh, I've got this wide lasted rental-y kind of boot and I'm just going to fill it up like crazy to deal with my narrow foot, that's not going to work. You're, yeah, you're putting too much material in there as a filter. It's way too dead. You'd need to start off with that foundation of a narrow, low-volume fitting shell first and then add, you know, a little bit of here, a little bit there to kind of fill up the void so you can get the better contact. But no, just, just filling up a bucket full of foam around your foot is, is not going to work. And that material then continues to pack out, right? When you ski it and you buckle it, that foam just squishes carefully down thinner and thinner and thinner. So you're just right back to where you started because there's just too much material to squish. So yeah, the ideal is— yeah, and then snug. The thing with narrow feet as well is the downsizing. So a lot of narrow feet, they get measured like this classic measuring, like, oh, oh, you're 25.5, and I can put them in a 24.5, right? And be like, okay, I can put you in a 24.5 and get that shell a lot closer and then just punch out the toes a little bit, and you're in a much snugger fit.

Yeah, do you know, on that, I think it would be good to give people expectations of maybe— I got two things here. One, areas that are completely fine to be like, I put the boot on and I go, Brent, this hurts here, here, and here, and you go, you know what, that's a, that's a really easy fix. And maybe then do you want to talk about the areas that are— that's kind of— we probably want to try on a different boot if we're getting sensations in these places because they're a lot harder to work with and modify.

Yeah, so if you're feeling things around the ankle, right, like ankle bone touching or navicular, little lumps and bumps around your feet that are touching, almost— we can almost always push those out and make some room. But you should focus on how the boot fits around the leg shaft, right? Is it grabbing your leg shaft? Is it smooth going down the front shin of the boot? Do you have smooth distribution all the way down over the top of your foot? Okay, does the heel base feel like it's held, all right? So those areas are foundation areas. Those have to be there, all right? If you feel like, oh, I got a bunion or my little pinky toe is tight, like, that's not a deal breaker. Those are easy places for most boot fitters to push that out a little bit. Even over the top of your foot, if you got the little tiny bump over the top of your foot and it's like, oh, the tongue feels like it's riding there,, but is the rest smooth, right? Yeah, the rest is smooth except this one spot. Great, we go in, isolate it, remove material, redistribute the padding, and the problem should be solved. So, but that leg shaft, base of heel, around that ankle area, right, shin and shin pressure should all feel like they have good solid contact, and that's, that's just a fundamental basis where that boot has to fit right out of the gate.

Yeah, yeah, I would, I would agree on that. I've had boots that don't fit in those areas, and it really— you feel like you can't— you might have been able to ski well yesterday in one pair of boots, and then the next day you get in this different one and you actually feel like you can't ski. Yeah, very well at all. All sorts of errors, skidding and down stemming and Yeah, it doesn't feel— can't balance right. So yeah, that's good to cover that, that, that area because I think those spots people might not realize they're not really easily modified. Um, actually I got one for you there on—

oh, go ahead. Yeah, but people should not be afraid to try the next size down, okay? People with narrow feet, try this next size down, right? Especially if you're in between sizes. So it's like your big toe just barely crosses over to the next size up. Like, yeah, go down a size because your big toe isn't everything, right? Yeah. And we can punch out the big toe.

Yeah.

Great.

I got one for you then. What about this boot is, is really good except the forward lean, the angle of the cuff, you know, forward or more upright is not right. Can you change that very easily in most boots where it's bolted on?

No, it's not super easy. Um, it can be done. I've unbolted many a cuff, shaved the material, made it more upright, and then found new bolt holes to re-bolt it in that more upright position. It's not the easiest task, but it is effective. It can be done. So, if you're investing in a good pair of boots, yeah, it's probably worth the money spent to get it into the stance that is most comfortable for you, even if it's a difficult— What about forward lean? Forward lean— Changing it more forward lean. Pretty easy because you can add wedges, you can add material. The forward lean equation, is much easier to add forward lean than it is to try to subtract it because you're—

you can take stuff away from the back. Yeah, yeah. And what about the front part too? If the— because I often find it's not that part that's the problem, it's the front of the shin. Like you're talking about, you want that nice even contour. Someone flexes their leg and then they're kind of hitting the top because the front of the cuff is like almost the same volume at the top as the bottom, so it's sort of— it doesn't flute out.

And so can you change the front angle, like where the buckles cross over the front? You can certainly play with padding. You can take filler and put it in across the bottom to try to make you feel like that contact is more even across the front of the shin. You can, you can add material down at the at the bottom of the tongue, you can put it at the top of the tongue. The key is evening out the contact, right? If you're changing the forward lean and that changes the contact on the tongue itself, then now you got to go and backfill on the tongue to make sure it feels really even.

Yeah. But I think, I mean, I know I've told people really take notice of that part. When you're flexing, like close your eyes and try and feel it. Because I mean, I personally feel getting that with the plastic, the shell, so then the liner is— you're getting an even contact with how much sort of padding is along. Like, that's a really nice thing to aim for. And again, a bit like, you know, you don't want to be having to go too crazy with foam filling if you can help it.

Yeah, no, you don't, I mean, want to go too bananas, but for instance, in my boots, I actually like adding 5mm neoprene down the front of the tongue shim, and we'll add another 3mm at the bottom where the leg shaft narrows, because what that makes me feel like is I'm getting really even contact the way the front of my shin is shaped. So now I can, I can get this really even even progressive flex in the boot without ever feeling like something's being lost. Even though it's just foam, it's more proprioceptive. It's like telling me where I'm at in time and space and where I'm going with it.

Yeah, would you feel like you have better balance, better balance just with that?

Yeah, yeah.

And so, you know, many of my boots have these neoprene tongue shims I build for that to even out the way the boot feels across the shin, right? And it seems to improve the balance factor of the boot. Okay. Oh, one honorable mention, sorry, on that list was the, uh, the Head Raptor WCR. Okay. Yeah, '96 lasted boot, pretty cool boot. Definitely narrow in the forefoot, narrow in the back. Does have a little bit bigger upper cuff. But again, in that, a lot of people don't know that boot's 96 lasted. So it's one of those ULV models out there, and Head's a big popular brand name. So it's the Head Raptor WCR. Now I know they make their Formula RS, which is a 98 last, but they make this WCR, which is kind of right down from their World Cup boot, but it's, I mean, anybody can ski it.

So. Would you be, uh, confident enough to put a sticker on, out of that list, the lowest of the low?

The lowest of the low?

The lowest of the low? Which would be the lowest of the low? Probably the lowest of the low on that list would be the Technica Firebird.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay, I think that's just good.

Yeah, yeah, for people to know that. But it also means it's low volume in the toes too. So it's, it's because it's a little old schooler, you know, design. It— you need to— you tend to— I tend to find we have to punch the toe box on that boot, uh, even, you know, it gets in like everything's great but my toes are cramped.

So, but like you said, that's not a deal breaker.

That's not a deal breaker.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, nice. If you've never tried these boots on, you— it takes a little time to wrap your head around them, right? Even with narrow feet. Oh my gosh, there's a lot going on in here.

Yeah, I would also say I think probably there might be some people in that intermediate, perhaps going to advanced, or they're not backing themselves in their ability to sort of be like, yeah, I could be an advanced skier. And they look at some of these boots and they see higher flexes— hundreds, 110, 120, 130— and they go, oh no. I mean, I, I don't know about you, but I would say don't be scared of that. It's again like, it's easier to make a boot softer, a bit harder to make it stiffer. And so you can take bolts out, you can just, you know, if you've got a nice snug fit, you can actually have the buckles a little bit looser. Now you're not clamping this thing down and distorting the shape. Would you agree to that kind of don't be scared?

What, what, don't be too scared? I mean, a lot of these boots, they make them in 90 and 95 flex, so you can get softer versions of these boots, but you can, right, the upper cuffs can cut down so you can flex over the top better. You make flex cuts in the side, you can trim the lower tabs. I mean, boot fitters have all these different techniques at their disposal to take away the stiction, take away some of the added material that makes a boot stiffer. So you don't have to just take the bolts out of the back. You can, you can do these, these fixes that make boots progressively flex better. You could take a 110 boot, right, and you could pretty much trim it into a 95-ish flex.

All right, um, did you listen to the Ted Ligonier podcast I just did?

I'm, I'm yet to review it, but I'm intrigued.

Well, he, he talks about that. He talks about one of the things he did in the year, that 2012-13 season where he dominated, and they had the change in the bigger radius skis. He had to modify his boots and make them flex more easily. Still was a stiff boot all around, but the, but the flexing characteristics he changed with these U-cuts, just as you're talking about.

So, uh, yeah, there's things— and I heard about that actually. There was a rumor I heard about many years ago that Ted was trying a much softer flex approach on his boots. It did trickle down. I didn't know exactly what he did. They said they were making some softer flexing boots for him, etc., etc. But we had heard that he was going for this much softer flex approach.

He did. Yeah, he likes the, that, that flex, a lot of flex in the ankle. Um, and now you got in touch originally because you were saying, I've, I've sort of had some really, I don't know if you'd say epiphanies or what, or just your confirmation on, on ramp angles. So that, yeah, the, the angle the, the baseboard and maybe the binding set at.

But, uh, maybe you wanted to speak to that. Yeah, so I mean, like, ramp angles are, are important, but we— there's a sort of like, we take it for granted about the ramp angle. So I just want to tell you, you know, where I ran into the story, right? So I'm pretty picky about the ramp angle on my gear, and I tend to ski like— it's mainly alpine stuff. So I've got skis where I went out, I put the bindings on and went I didn't measure anything. I just bet, let's get them mounted and let's go. And then they just didn't ski right. Like there's some, I mean, it's a good ski. I know it's a good ski and they just ski like I'm way, feel like I'm way too forward. I'm out of balance. My quads are burning. All right. So yeah, so I did modifications and over the years, most of the manufacturers of alpine bindings, right? The standard resort bindings have taken instead of having this sort of like, pitch, right, where you're heel high, toe low. They've, they've learned that, like, oh, people don't like them that way, so they flatten them down a bit. A lot of manufacturers have flattened down, right? So, uh, I got a touring trip that I'm planning for Japan, and I've been spending a year on, like, working on my touring. And I've always noticed that my touring gear doesn't ski the same way that my alpine gear does. I've got the cants in, everything looks good, but it just never felt quite right. And so I started doing some measuring, and I found that on one set of my, my skis, which I had taken out once, right, I've taken these one pair of touring skis out with the touring boots, and I was going, this is whack. Like, I took them for one run and they were just like, I can't ski these things, what's wrong? So I, I get my iPhone out and get the angle meter, I put the boot inside and put everything flat on a flat floor floor, and I come up with 12 degrees of ramp angle.

Yeah, 12.

That's a lot. Yeah. So here's the thing about ramp angle, right? You got the ramp angle in the boot, but that's the benign one, right? That's kind of benign because it's not affecting your forward lean. So when the boot goes in a system with a high ramp angle, It does not only affect the ramp that you're standing on, but it changes the forward lean as a double whammy. So the effective forward lean I had in this boot with 12 degrees of ramp angle was 18 degrees of forward lean. That's crazy, right? Like 18, and I got good calves, so my knees were bent at like 34 degrees, right? Crazy amounts of knee flexion.

And of course, what you do with your upper body is push it all the way back to not be falling on your tips.

Yeah, so the, this, the, the tails were pivoting out underneath me. Um, I mean, they didn't feel like they were burning my legs, but it's like the skis were just pivoting everywhere, right? You couldn't get them to flatten and straighten out. So boom, I start measuring stuff on all sorts of other touring gear, and I'm getting 8 degrees and 10 degrees and 12 degrees. I'm like, all my touring bindings are 4 degrees ramped, right? They have— I got my 5 or some degrees in the boot, but then I got another 4 in the system. Okay, 9 degrees. So, uh, really, actually, then the day before I left for Japan, I'm out in the basement, right, basically building, um these platforms, right? So I've got this, you can see a little blue spacer in there, and that's a 5mm spacer underneath the toe. And I'm fabricating this whole thing with the cans and extra screws. And the day before I leave, I take a morning skin up and I'm like, gosh, okay, this has got to be it. This has got to solve the problem. And I get the top, I put my skis on, the first turn is like, magic, right? The first turn you're like, oh my God, I'm balanced again. And the rest of the way down, oh my God, right? So by taking 2 degrees out of the ramp, by raising the toe, it was magic, right? Back to balanced, felt really good. The ski just completely transformed itself. Everything worked great. And a lot of touring touring gear out there is highly ramped. I mean, if you go to wildsnow.com, um, they've got a whole list of all— most of the touring bindings and how much added ramp they have in them. And there's some are crazy, like they're like 4 or 6 degrees, like really whack. Some are flatter, but you're like, oh man, all these touring guys out there. And I see a lot of touring skiers and they look for center of mass way back. They're super flexed, they're in the back seat, and I'm like those guys look like they know how to ski, but why do their butts look like they're back? And I'm thinking it's the ramp. They don't get— they don't understand that, you know, their bindings and those boots and everything set up just completely changed their balance. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And there's even Alpine stuff out there that that's— that will still ramp you a lot. And, and then let's say you have a fleet of skis. Let's say you got 8 pairs of skis and you got vintage bindings on some of them. I, I've met all sorts of people like, yeah, I got some old Volkl Five Stars with 13, 14-year-old bindings, right? Highly ramped. And then they got some new stuff. So you're going back and forth to these skis that are, and then you kind of wonder why I'm not progressing, because you're adapting every time you switch these skis. So you're relearning how to stand over skis every time you switch these skis that don't have ramp angles, they're all within a range. Yeah, so there's this fleet mentality out there, it's like, oh, I got lots of skis, like got a lot of golf clubs. But the problem is, is that some of this older stuff, if you start looking at the way they're set up it actually puts you out of balance, right? Yeah, yeah. Or maybe there's even an old pair that was in perfect balance, and then you get new stuff and it's way more out of it. I mean, you got to do some measuring, right? You got to understand that, like, there's a happy place in your ramp angles that makes everything work really, really well. And if you just take it for granted that that next pair of bindings or that next pair of boots or whatever is always going to be the same. It's not. Yeah.

And then you wonder why, you know what, it's pretty easy. Like we said, you— everyone, most people have a smartphone, and these angle meters are free. I mean, a lot of the one I've got is free download. You put it in there and then you find out what is your ideal sort of total angle you want with the boot board angle and the, and the binding one. And you, and you go from there. I think that's, uh, it's a really good important note because I think some people— it's, do you know what it is? The worst feeling is that when you go out and you ski like shit and you, and you know you're feeling fine, you slept well, skis are tuned, but something's off. It's, you know, these, these balance things of how the boot, the ski system is all set up is It's critical.

It is, and it could be really, really critical. And we don't— like, you don't really have the ability just to walk into the store or whatever and just go, hey, can I have a box of bindings? And I'm just going to completely disassemble them out here on the floor with a caliper and measure everything, right? You just don't— you don't have it, right? You're just like, hey, that's a cool binding, that's a cool ski. You get it mounted and you don't, you just don't think of measuring everything out and getting the ramp to rise and the angle to figure out, you know, that's exactly what works best for me. And even myself, who, you know, does this for a living, like, you get in a hurry, you want good gear, you want to get out there, you want to enjoy it, you forget, right? Yeah, you just forget.

Yeah.

And then it starts, it it slaps you in the face when you ski on it and you go, oh, oops, time to start relooking at why this just feels so out of balance and so weird.

Yeah, I'm going to put in here because if this goes out into the internet world, podcast world, there's going to be the keyboard warriors that, that go, you're using the wrong terminology here because I know there's delta. And there's ramp and you're supposed to use one for the other. Like, yes, that's there, but I think if you keep it simple as just how high is the heel, how high is the toe, and then is it coming from the binding, which is going to change the whole entire boot angle, or is it coming from the boot board, which is going to just change the angle at the ankle joint alone. Just want to say that to like calm down, it's all right. We know there are these terminologies, but other people might not. So we're just talking in simple terms of, of ramp, because I think that's a really good word because everyone knows what a ramp is like. It has an angle to it. And so, uh, yeah, I just thought I'd put that in there.

I tend to use more the layman's term of just ramp angle. I mean, yes, we use the terminology deltas, right? But then you've got to define it as either positive delta or negative delta. Right? So, yeah, there's a delta in the binding, but we just call it the ramp angle, right? Because it's ramp, right? It's like a ramp. It's a ramp, right? And you've got a ramp on top of a ramp, and you get these additive effects. And again, you're always more in touch with the one in the boot because that's the one you're standing in. You're standing in, you're standing on the floor in the shop, or you're standing in your bindings or whatever. You just know the feeling of the boot. But it's the binding one that's so easy to forget about, right? Just so easy to take for granted, totally forget about it, and just assume that it's fine, the same, right?

When they're not.

Yeah, yeah.

Hey, uh, just, uh, out of interest, and so, you know, really helpful, one of the conversations we had in the past, we were talking about that that ramp angle and to do with people's basically Achilles tendon or ankle flexibility. So Achilles tendon stiffness or laxity and ankle flexion range. And I'm just saying this because I think sometimes people at a certain point in a podcast, you know, these important things are said but they get glanced over. Anyway, you said your point of view on it is a lot of it has to do with the like how much range you have in your Achilles. So, so like myself, my knee can go really far past my toes before my Achilles is really taut, and then therefore my, my heel lifts up. Other people, that range is a lot less. For example, my wife, a lot less. And so, so in general, and I think this has worked when I've told this to people, if you have a really flexible Achilles, lots of range an even flatter ramp angle helps you because your Achilles gets taut naturally, and so your ankle stops flexing too much at the right point because you've brought the bottom of the, like, the toe up and, and made— basically brought tension into the Achilles sooner. And then it speaks the other way if you're really tight in the Achilles. A bit more ramp might help you because then that tension doesn't kick in too soon in your range of motion in your ankle. So I'm just saying that because that part you said, and that was really important, I think, and, and really useful information. People need to just go and know their body and go and maybe test. You should probably know at this point in your life if you have flexible ankles or you don't, but, but in general, that, that does seem to work.

Yeah. So where we want to add that ramp is in the boot. Right, where the mechanics are happening in the boot. We either, we either reduce it or we increase it based on your ankle capacity and the range of motion in the boot. What's happening on the binding is different, and so that's the tricky one because you got to find where it seems to work for you in a happy place. All right, um, you're like, well, wait a minute, you just add more ramp if you have low range of motion on the binding. No, because that adds forward lean, all right? And once you add forward lean, you're going to, you're going to squeeze down, right, that ankle range of motion. So every skier has to find where their happy place is. One, in the boot, right? What works, makes their biomechanics work. Biomechanics, and then what allows them to balance over that biomechanic on their binding.

Okay.

Yeah.

So those two separate things, they're two separate things. So you can't use the rules for one on top of the other, right?

You got to separate them.

Yeah.

Yep.

Some experimentation is, uh, is necessary for people and I mean, I think that's a fun part. I mean, that day you, you skied down and it was— yes, the first turn was good. That must have been a very satisfying moment.

Yeah, the efforts in your, uh, in your, uh, shop, back of the shop, coming to fruition. And for generally, for more— for general free skiers, people just working on their skiing, less forward lean is usually better., right? If you can get to a less forward lean and a taller stance, you find you have more motion, and you can always add more forward lean by, you know, stuffing stuff behind your calf and down in the boot. You can always play with it and then take it out, like, oh, I got this big wedge, let's put it in there and see what happens, right? And go, oh, that was better, or no, that was not so good, but you could always remove it, right? So you can play with it. But if you already start in this really high forward lean position, it's really tough to be like, oh, I just switch a bolt and it, you know, it makes the cuff go upwards. Boots are just generally not built that way. Very few boots out there have adjustable forward lean in some mechanical way. And so these, you know, if anything, you start taller and move forward as opposed to super forward and trying to find a way to get taller in the boot.

Yeah, yeah. Hey Bren, I got, I got a little story to tell you here. It does, it fits in with this forward lean and, and with liners too, to maybe wrap up this chat. You know, I was skiing with a friend in Montana and, you know, I was just sort of, he's like, what, what should I do with my skiing? I was like, you don't have enough flexion in your ankles, like you I just never see the front of the ski really engage. And so he's there trying and trying, skiing around, and I look over and it's like not really going well. And he said, Tom, if I go any further forward, I'm going to feel like I'm on my face. And we had a look at his shells back at his house, and everything looks pretty good there. Like maybe a little too voluminous, but not too bad. And then, then I look at his liner and they've put him in the, uh, the double overlap Intuition liner. And so then it hit me, I'm like, at the front he's got 1, 2 things, a really thick front section where his ankle tries to go. And even though the boot's not a stiff one, he could not get his shin angle in the right position or flex his ankle. And, you know, like, it made me think, I don't know if I really like that design. Um, I think even when I skied tele, I remember one pair of boots had the double overlap wrap, then the next ones, the Intuition ones, had a tongue. Yeah. And, and, and they were great. I really liked those. But any final thoughts? Actually, so I finished that. So anyway, he went and got, I think, the Hawx Ultra, the one you mentioned in the beginning. Skiing changed. Like, he messaged me because I was already back in Australia by then. He said, oh my God, like, game changer. I feel this, the, the tip pull me around the corner, and I feel more balanced and, and all this sort of stuff, uh, in the right boot. But yeah, anything you have to say about that double, double overlap intuition?

Yeah, so that double overlap was never designed for two-piece boots.

It was designed for 3-piece boots.

Makes sense.

Okay.

Okay.

So it was designed to help even out the flex of these 3-piece boots that had that really accordion soft tongue, and it works great. So Dalbello continues to produce their— I mean, their Cabrio series for next year. It's called— used to be called Krypton, now it's Cabrio, but they have the overlap, but it works because you've got this external tongue that's on the outside and the double overlap kind of fills that void and works with that tongue. I've tried the Intuition, the wrap liners in a standard 2-piece shell. And I did it years ago, mainly for warmth, right? I was up in Montana, it was -20, I had these wrap liners floating around and I knew I had to go do a clinic. So I molded these things up and I got, was able to get through the clinic because the, the insulation of the EVA was, was great. But the first thing I know is it made the boot feel way stiffer, way less progressive. And it was, and this was in a two-piece shell and it didn't have the tongue, right? So all of a sudden it was like you're just banging up against a wall. In this boot. Yeah. Hey, I'm warm, but I'm not skiing great, right? Yeah. And what we have found over the years is that two-piece boots, if you're using an Intuition liner, you need the tongue one. If you're using a three-piece boot, you can use the wrap.

Okay.

Yep.

But you take a wrap— well, I think— yeah, you take a wrap and you put it in a two-piece shell and it makes the boot feel way stiffer and way blockier.

That— I hope all shops around the world hear that because there's probably some people that have been put in that one and, and the people probably just didn't know that doesn't work. But thank you for that explanation that there actually is some sense to it. It was never designed for that, uh, but I guess the The memo didn't get around to everyone.

For many years we were putting wraps and two-piece shells and people thought they were really comfortable and stuff, but it does, it really changes the way the boot's supposed to flex properly. And if you're looking for higher level mechanics, you find that that wrap does just doesn't deliver.

It blocks you out. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what he what he was describing and what it looked like. So yeah, Brent, thanks very much again. No, thank you. Yeah, I think I'm, I'm saying thanks, uh, as, but from my part and from, I think everyone that listens, people really enjoy these, these chats and getting great information out there.

So yeah, thanks.

I, good luck for the rest of your winter, and I look forward to our next chat. Hopefully there's some, some new discoveries.

That help keep and enhance our skin.

You got it. Thanks, Tom. Wow, some great information there from Brent. Now, just in case you're wondering why I did the podcast from my car, the networks around here had knocked out some of the towers, so I had no internet. So I had to drive and park in a parking lot and do it from the front of my car. What have you got to do, hey? But a quick summary there, I think some great things especially recommendations on boots for people who are struggling to find something that fits. I know when you get a snug fitting ski boot, it can really change your skiing. This season through the Academy, I've helped a number of people change their boots, and their skiing really took a rapid increase in progression as soon as they were in the right ones. And the, the biggest problem was they're in buckety, too loose, too big, bigger volume boots to begin with, so they are buckling the top buckles too tight. They were going for things like foam-injected liners to fill up all the space, but at the end of the day, their foot wasn't able to work with the shell very well, a close fit, to be able to get those skis to really perform. So narrow feet people, hopefully now you have some more insight and information into what boots might work. And then finally, the, the binding ramp angle thing, I think that's so important. I know for myself, when I switched to a brand that had a flatter ramp angle like these Vokals behind me, it was really helpful in me finding my balanced stance. And so if you're on a binding that has a ton of ramp angle and the boot even inside has ramp angle on top of that, I think you are probably blaming some of these problems on your own own technique when it's actually the equipment. So go out and check your, uh, check your equipment, see what it's at, and check between your skis if you have multiple pairs of skis, because they're probably going to be different. Okay, that's it from me and Big Picture Skiing. Enjoy your time out on the snow.

Thanks for listening.