Pivotal moments, thinking differently and a desire to ski better | Demelza Interviews Tom Gellie

Now we're going to do things different today. I'm not going to be the host. My friend Demelza Clay emailed me and said, hey, I think we should flip the chairs here. Demelza, why did you want to host the show?

Well, Tom, I remember the first time, one of the first times that you and I started working together over here in Canada, I heard this like noise behind me and this person going, excuse me, excuse me, and like jumping over partitions in the lift line and elbowing people out of the way. And it was one of your subscribers, someone who watches what you do online, literally willing to, like, do anything to get on the chairlift with you to talk about his skiing, um, or to thank you for the things that he had learned from you online. So I thought, wouldn't it be great to help your listeners understand some of the things that I've learned from you and some of the things I know about you because I'm one of your friends and we work together? Let me take over the podcast today. I'm going to ask you the question questions so that all the people out there, the listeners, can learn a little bit more about this guy that they've been watching ski and watching teach or learning from him online. I know that you took a break from the skiing industry. What was it that you did during that break? I know you studied the body and movement, so what was that?

So I'd had a stint of really being involved in the ski industry, instructing back-to-back winters And I can remember being in Canada with Jenny, who's now my wife, and I'd realized like, I can't keep doing it this way. She was not interested to keep doing back-to-back winters. I could have kept going, but I could also see some downfalls in that, you know, I wasn't really saving any money. How am I going to support a family when I do that one day? So I was definitely at a really difficult point where I was thinking, how do I stay in this industry that I love? So, I'm thinking like, do I become a carpenter? Because maybe carpenters can work in a ski resort. I knew a friend who was doing that and then still be around skiing, maybe part-time instructing. But I wasn't really interested in that. Trying to come up with other things, like maybe I learn some IT skills, but that'll take a long time. Maybe I go restudy. And so, I was really sort of conflicted because I didn't want to leave this great industry that, that I loved, that I'd followed winters, Northern Hemisphere, Southern Hemisphere, back to back. Luckily, I chat with a sort of an old housemate named Claudia, and she was just sort of into learning a new modality called Structural Integration. I was talking to her about it, and it sounded interesting. And Claudia was a massage therapist and a personal trainer, and so at first I just thought Claudia is going to give me a massage, and who doesn't love a good massage? Most people love a good massage. Yeah, so I thought, I'm just— this sounds great, I'll just go do that. So go along to this session with Claudia, and before, you know, you don't just sort of like get down to your underwear and just lie on the table, she started looking at my posture. So she made me stand front on in my underwear, very confronting. And then, you know, it was saying, okay, your shoulder here, and you're a bit shifted in your hips there. And so there's an assessment going on of my posture and how I stood. And then turn 90 degrees. Okay, look at me from side on and how everything's stacked up. And she's writing notes down instead of asking me questions. And then all 4 angles get looked at. And then I walk up and down her little sort of studio, and she's analyzing the way I walk as well and move. And then she goes, okay, lie down. So I lie down and like the first contact is like really firm. So I'm lying there, it's not just like this, you know, ease into it, squeeze. It's like bam, knuckles into like your shoulder, like, oh wow, that hurts. So I was like, this is serious, she's trying to like change something. Yeah, well, maybe not, baby, like it felt like that. But, but she's trying to have an influence on the way my structure was, uh, was currently resting. So I go through this, this session, and at times it feels like not too bad, other times it's really uncomfortable, but I can feel things in my body sort of shift and move around, which is an amazing sensation. Like, no one likes to feel like they're stuck in a certain way. Like, we all— it's all nice to know you can change. I'm feeling some things change, some releases happen. That was a really weird moment. She did one half of my body at first, so one shoulder and sort of side, really detailed, and then said, stand up and walk around and notice the difference. So I stood up. I can't remember which side it was. Maybe it was my right. And I stood up and I walked around, and the right half of my upper body is moving fluidly. Like I had no restrictions at all. And the— yeah, and the left felt really contrastingly different, like a lot more stuck in, in comparison. So I went, well, this is, this is weird, because usually you get off a massage table and you just feel groggy and tired. This had changed what I was feeling in my own body. So lie back down, back to the hours passed again, get up and, and, uh, So we reassess my body, and she actually took photos. This is part of structural integration. They do before and after photos. Before and after photos are taken, all 4 angles. We sit down and look at it, and she goes, look, see how your shoulders have moved back here, and your left one's dropped down to be more matching like your right. You're, you're, you're standing straighter. You're sort of less like collapsed in your body. You're standing more upright. All these little subtle things that You couldn't really tell unless you had it side by side, which was really helpful. And I went, this is brilliant. So I go out and I go skiing and it feels fantastic skiing too. So I'd realized things in your body don't have to take a long time for them to be changed. A huge part of change is, is experiencing and feeling it. Like that was the most powerful thing. It wasn't like just wait and see. It was like 20 minutes ago you feel like this, 20 minutes later you're feeling different. And I thought that was like, why is there not someone like this on every street corner of every town in the world? Why is— why am I finding out about this now? So I had this moment, I'm like, this is what I need to do. I need to be the guy who knows about skiing but also really understands the body because like almost like a Rolodex, I'm going through like these different skiers, clients, friends. Oh, you know that person who's always had hip rotation and can't fix it, going to the left, or they have this weird shoulder position or whatever, you know, they're more stuck in, in one part of their body. I could help that person because I know how to explain it in technique-wise, but then I could also show them or do some bodywork, send them to someone who does bodywork to get these things, like get them feeling these changes I was feeling. So that was a— that was— I was like, I'm gonna be this guy, that guy.

And I find this really interesting because, I mean, so as you know, I have a sports science degree, um, from before I started ski instructing. And once we started coaching together again after your break, after my break, we saw very eye to eye on things. However, we'd come from very contrasting body educations. And so full disclosure, I've also been treated by the infamous Claudia and have experienced what Tom's discussing. And it is incredible. Surfer's shoulders, my hips all locked up. She's a lot more subtle now.

A lot more subtle.

A lot more subtle. Yeah. And so it's around, it's around fascia, right, Tom? And there is a massive body of research being done around fascia. There's YouTube videos on it now. It's starting to turn a lot more mainstream. So correct me if I'm wrong, I think you went out and started a therapy practice essentially, right?

That's right. Yeah. So I, I'm going, I got to learn this and talk to Claudia. And by the way, I went, I went through 10 sessions with Claudia. So that was like session 1. And each session they kind of like, you learn this recipe as a structural integrator to go through, you know, all the joints, basically everything in your body, including the inside of your mouth gets kind of worked on. It's, it's crazy. So at the end of this, I'm feeling different. And, and my partner Jenny, she also went through it and felt amazing as well. And so there was kind of this, this, that, that really helped confirm I wasn't doing it on my own. I was seeing someone else feel this transformation and feel better. Move better, stand better. So I go, I'm going to learn this. But the problem is, this is back in, uh, 2012. And yeah, there's— I go on the internet to try and find where I can learn it. Must be somewhere in Australia. Nope. Somewhere in Canada. Nope. There was like a couple of places in Germany I could go do like a course in, in Bali at a particular time of the year where people trainers went there to do it, or I could go to America and do it, and that's where Claudia had done it. So it was a big commitment. I can't just go home and study this. Yeah. And, and like you said, this is not something that is very well known. It was starting— it was this weird— it's kind of like at that moment, funnily enough, it was getting more and more well known. Yeah, yeah. But it was definitely an alternative sort of practice.

Did you feel like it was risky? Like going off on this tangent.

Yeah, definitely. Because I'd spoken to Claudia, I said, I, maybe I should become a physiotherapist. And she said right back, she said, have you had many sessions with the physiotherapist? I said, no, maybe one. She said, did it help? And I said, don't know, not really, didn't notice the difference. She said, what about this Structural Integration session? And I said, it's changed my life. It's like, well, there you go. Like, why would you study something that you don't have a personal experience with. And I think that's like, I just, I wanted to say that that's, that's what I base a lot of my decisions around. It's not about this body of evidence or that someone's written a report and said this is the way it is. I, I do things because I've experienced it and I've felt it. And so I have like a whole body experience of what it's about, and that's why I go down the road. I don't need confirmation. From elsewhere. It's, it's a felt thing. So yeah, I went and studied it and just, yeah, it started, you know, luckily I had just ski instructor friends and clients. So I did the first kind of phase of this course, started learning all this stuff. I had no idea about anatomy, by the way. I had to buy this anatomy book and start learning all this stuff because everyone—

because you, you had it, but you, you went to university, right? And but you studied in various science?

Yeah, like applied science.

Okay, great. So you got in there and went for it?

Yeah, yeah. And none of that was able— I couldn't use that as credit towards this structural integration because you also had to be— you had to have prior knowledge, like you had to be a massage therapist or a chiropractor or a physical therapist. You had to have a background in understanding physiology first. So I applied, got Got into this course, but on the proviso that I go and learn this stuff. So I'm teaching skiing at Thredbo, and then in the evenings I'm reading anatomy books and trying to like know, name muscles and all this sort of stuff and bones. And, and that was, that was, you know, that was interesting and hard. But yeah, I went, did the course, came back, and then you have this body of people who I'm like, hey, can I work on you? Like, just after skiing, I'll do this session, see what you think. And so ski instructors started coming in, and I would see like 2 or 3 people a day and take the before and after photos. And so they were into it too, because it was just like ski instructing. We're like, like, analysis, assessment, intervention, recheck it. And, and, and I was getting these same results. People like, yeah, wow, feel better, and I can see it. It's not just my feeling. I can see it. Like, I'm not pulling the wool over their eyes and just saying, oh, you know, or, or even if they couldn't feel it that much, when they saw the photos of the change, that was like, oh, I'm in. You're not trying to fool me. It's not this thing that something is happening here. So yeah, I started that and a practice started developing.

And, um, especially I think with like ski instructors and the training that we do to become fully certified, if you get that, that far The movements that we make are so precise and there's a lot of finesse, very intricate movements. And what you would have seen already by this stage, like we're all somehow— the way we ski is limited by our athleticism or the way the body moves. And instructors are out there normally training themselves and practicing every single day. So I bet it would have been a really good sort of beta test group in a way. Definitely to test this theory. Like, hey, I think that fascia work, structural integration, is going to help skiers at large.

That's right. Yeah. So I'd see people like that I'd worked on, they'd go skiing, like this friend James, and he'd come back and tell me like, yeah, I could feel— I felt looser and more easy to create like angles in, in a medium turn, or in the moguls. It's, it's— there's, there's The absorption just happens without me having to overthink it as much. Or, you know, or a lot of the people like, yeah, my back doesn't hurt as much. I feel, you know, that pain's gone because that's a big motivator. Like, for me, I didn't really have any pain, luckily. It was, it was improved movement performance. But a lot of people, it's a sore foot, a sore knee, shoulder that motivates them to then learn about their body. But I think a lot of people kind of stop there. Um, I think it's more— it's different now, but back then there wasn't— Instagram wasn't massive. There weren't just, you know, you open Instagram and see personal trainers, like movement people, specialists, you know, blowing up that with like, do this to increase hip mobility, do this to strengthen your core. That wasn't really, yeah, going on just yet. Yeah.

So that's actually— that's actually a good place to start because I'd like to ask you about I mean, you know, you're very much an early adopter in the space of getting your ideas and your, your content online, whether it be YouTube, um, uh, Instagram these days. But you started— how long ago did you start putting your, your ideas and videos online?

I just found skiing interesting, and I always wanted to document like what was going on. And some cool things were happening, you know, being an Australian, going to Canada So different. Powder day, video with my friends, the powder day. And I've just always been interested in, in video editing. So that was—

that's like, yeah, you're the video guy. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Ever since you're a kid, right?

Yeah, yeah. Like, you've always been— yeah, this funny one, like, one of my best mates, he like— we'd go around to his house and we use a video camera and we made a video, music video clip to MC Hammer Can't touch this. And it was just a stupid thing, like, like funny.

Don't we still have it?

I don't know if I do actually, but I wish I could find it. But you know, not just stand in front and dance the whole time, like we'd cut to different things. So for whatever reason, I was just interested in that. So video editing and documenting things was a passion of mine. But then yeah, moved to Threadbow. And see Paul and Riley as sort of like posting videos. Paul Laurence, Ryan McGlashan, great skiers. And going, you know, I should do that as well. Because we would go away to different resorts in the Northern Hemisphere, and it was a way to kind of do what we do in Threadbo. Like, hey, how do you think I'm making my short turns today? I'm working on this. So we'd sort of do it to, to share, but also to share between each other to help, like, you know, hey, what, what do you think I should do next? So yeah, that was, so that was 2009. I started sort of doing it for that reason. But before then, I'd been posting stuff about trips I'd done, or if I, you know, went backcountry skiing without telemark skis and it was a fun day. Yeah, so, so back then it was, is, but yeah, it was just kind of luck, you know, because not A lot of people were, were doing that. And like that book, have you heard of the book Outliers?

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, no, there's one other thing he points out is like, it's not just this idea of if you work hard, like be the hardest worker, you will be the most successful person. There's time, like a time frame thing. So, for example, we're living in the time of AI. And so if you're able to leverage that, and because of, you know, maybe, maybe you're 30 years old, so you're beyond the party years, you've learned, you know what I mean? Like, and all these things combined together. And that's why Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, for example, he talks about it's not just that they're brilliant. Yeah, it's like time.

Bill Gates didn't have his mother exposure to the school computer at his mother's work. At that particular time and got his 10,000 hours then, he wouldn't have been able to start Microsoft. Yeah, but like, for context for everyone, this was all happening, you know, when you and I had first met. We were on the Aussie demo team. You guys were the ones with the cameras, and having a video camera in your pocket at that stage, it was quite rare. It was quite cumbersome. They were large. Dealing with the files was a pain. You know, we were still using probably tapes, little micro discs maybe, or I think it was just, just getting past tapes.

I think, you know, I think you're— it's that what you're getting— like, I remember my main camera that I was filming with was— it hadn't had a little SD card. Yeah, but still, there was a big— to get decent quality, it was the bulky, heavy thing in your jacket pocket bouncing up and down.

Yeah, it was a commitment. And normally as an instructor, if you needed to use a camera with your group, maybe you were training a group of instructors, you usually went into the ski school office and grabbed like the ski school camera, you know, that you guys had. And it's interesting that you bring those two up, Paul Lorenz and Rodney McGlashan, because the three of you, if I remember correctly, you both, all three of you shared an alternative schooling experience. Each of you in a slightly different way, I think. Tell me a little bit more about that, you know, how that might have, um, shaped your curiosity in the industry or your ability to, like you said, you know, think a little bit outside the box.

Well, I can't— I probably can't speak for the two other guys. I know Riley went to a Steiner school, and that's probably what you're— yeah, hinting to. I don't, I don't think Paulie did. But I went to a Steiner school for grade 9 and 10. And so for people that don't know, sort of Rudolf Steiner was this sort of scientist philosopher guy from Germany who had a different way. He really looked into what is the best way children learn. And so based a whole curriculum and even philosophy on life around what he'd sort of researched and discovered. And at the time before I went there, I was, we'd just moved to Canberra from the Blue Mountains and that was going from like a sort of a rural sort of type area where we lived on a bush block to then Canberra, which is city. And I didn't really know anyone and I went to high and that was right when I went to high school and I wasn't doing very well at high school. I was mucking up, but I, looking back, it was because I had no friends and I sort of didn't know where to fit in. In this place. And then my parents, my mum was like, oh, check out this school. And I remember doing a day there and the classes were smaller. So like in the whole of grade 9, there were like 27 kids. And the day there, I felt more at home than, you know, the whole 2 years at this other main high school. I was like, yes, I want to go here. And you do woodwork, music, use your hands. Like there would be a main themed lesson every morning, you know, say on like ancient Egypt. And there's a real emphasis on like putting pride in your work. So you would sort of like colour in the edges of your— this is even in year 9 and 10. Instead of just writing it out or doing it like you would write it neatly and everyone have a calligraphy pen. I thought this is cool. Like people really take pride. Creative too. Creative. Yeah. And take pride in your work. And we expect, like back to the experiences, we experience like learning. We don't just rote memory, do it, you know, like hand it in, remember these facts. That's sort of— so, so I've— I loved that. I was like, this is cool. And, uh, yeah. And so I think I've just always realized that that's the kind of experience I am searching for. I'm searching for those experiences because they're powerful. You don't need external motivation to keep going with those things if it's interesting enough. So I think what it is, probably just another moment in my life that's confirmed it's— that's the best way to learn, is you got to feel it, you got to do it. Doesn't matter if it's not the like mainstream thing, because for sure, you know, and even my friends that go there, they would laugh, you know, like we get teased for being like the kids that knit our own socks and wear like colored rainbow colored beanies, you know, that our parents tie-dyed. But that they were just taking the mickey, like at that point they'd sort of, you know, known they were just making fun of themselves. But yeah, um, yeah, it's just being brave enough, just like, who cares? It's more about like, if you want to learn and get better and these situations, environments give you that, just do it.

Yeah, I feel like it's, it's given you, um, already at a younger age, like a patterned habit of going, hang on, I think there might be something in this, something that's not written in the textbooks so far. So let me take Structural Integration as an example. You've discovered this world where you could feel a difference within your own body, realize that it could be useful to others. And I mean, there was a time when chiropractic and physiotherapy were considered alternative therapies as well, and they weren't, you know, evidence-based and all that kind of stuff, even just in the decade or so before I started university in the late '90s. So, you know, now this is getting a lot more validity as well. You got in there nice and early. And yeah, I mean, I, I can see that in you, having known you for a little while and worked alongside of you. I see you constantly picking up little things here and there going, oh, hang on a second, that's interesting. I think I've found a place where that little piece of the puzzle might fit, but it's over here. So leads me to another one of my questions. I think there's a lot of instructors out there and coaches that would be really interested to understand more about your creative process, because I think in a way that the work, being able to create something of value for a client that they can feel and see immediately in their own skin, feel it in their skin that, that day is really the work that we do out there. So what can you share with us about your creative process, how that's all sort of that your backstory is amalgamated to the now? How do you go about creating these ideas and, you know, surf turns and things like that that you come up with?

Right, okay, I'll try. I'll do my best because I do, I, I do wonder about that. And I think, so I think one thing to say first would be those inspirational moments, sometimes it's hard to put, like, nail down what exactly it was, say, for, uh, for something. So maybe we use the surf turn, for example. So it all starts with skiing. Someone is not getting better even though I've done my best to say this is what you do in carving. You roll your knees like this, you put the pressure here, you put your body, blah blah blah blah. Like, you've explained it as clearly as possible. You've shown videos, you've done indoor stuff. Someone goes out and they don't do it. So I've just been one for like, I don't keep banging the same drum or going through the same door to try and achieve that. I go, I get frustrated, and I go and try and figure out a new way of doing it. And often that, again, probably off— I was going to say a lot of things come from inspiration from external sources, others like Paul and Riley amazing influences at the time. Like, forever grateful to those two people and many others. I'm like, all along the line there are these great influential people that have helped me sort of spark a creative process that I've turned into my own. So the surf turn, trying to figure out how I get people to, you know, steer the top of the turn, but not put their hips in a really weird position, be able to like— so not carving, but sort of a blend of like steering, for example. That's, that's one of the hardest things to teach, I think, is, is steer. Wouldn't you agree?

There's a lot of finesse, and it, it comes down to like, it's not one of the absolutes. There's all these gradients that exist between a parallel turn and a carve turn.

And exactly, you know, like, you can't like—

yeah, like, it's that ability to dissect in there and go, wait a second, what exists in between these things that we've taught to categorize skiing by, for example.

Yes, exactly. So, so, so that one being a frustration point, I'm like, okay, where else can I get some inspiration from? And so George Hubert, he's a French professor, uh, this fantastic guy gifted me his, his book at one point, uh, 7 years ago, or maybe 5, 6 years ago. And, and yeah, this book is called Skiing and Art A Technique. And, and this friend, uh, who I'd never met, just, he liked what I was doing online. He gives it to me, said, I think in here you'll find some things that are very similar to the way you view it. Check it out. The guy really teaches in feelings as well as like tries to understand the physics and science. So that's why A Technique and Art is in the title. So read this book, and even though it's from the '70s, it's got these brilliant explanations and ways of describing like the body positions, the ski-snow interaction, all this sort of stuff. So I read it, and I remember reading this section where he talks about the surf turn. And people could maybe brush over it because he sort of teaches it for just more as a technique to ski powder snow, sometimes in the moguls. Um, and for whatever reason, I just went back, read that book looked at the surf turn and went and tried doing it again. And I went, this is another entrance to teaching people how to steer the top of the turn. And so this influence, I go out, I try it, test on some people, do it in some camps where you were there as well. Um, you know, he is, you know, oh God, Tom's come up with some other weird, you know, thing again.

It wasn't— I don't think it was a weird thing because for me, I remember um, we had that bump stay. I remember it was like 16 degrees or something. We were skiing that bumps line, and you'd been taking video of me, and you used a picture of me, um, surf turning into a rut when I was skiing. But I hadn't really learned the surf turn yet. I hadn't really sort of— I was doing other stuff. So it was already there, but I feel like you'd sort of found a way to identify the micro things that exist between the macro things that we're more familiar with. And whether you want to call it being more granular or just being able to identify something that hadn't really been spoken about before.

Yeah, kind of pull that out. Yeah, that's so true. I remember that. I was like, yeah, here's to Melza doing what I'm talking about. Her intention was just to get through this line of moguls in the way she knows how to navigate it really well. But we can pull out, like you said, that section that people stuff up and maybe make it its own progression, its own, its own lesson. So I think it's like, back to your question, how's the creative process? I think it first comes from, why do these people not get what I'm talking about?

Uh-huh.

Given my best shot at trying to explain it, search externally for influences and, and ways to maybe do it. And doesn't have to— and I think that's a really important thing— doesn't have to come from the ski world. A lot of the best things, best creative things, have come from outside of that. In fact, like this running athletics guy has given me fantastic ideas that I've found how that fits into skiing. So yeah, that's, that, that's probably part of it.

I feel like, I mean, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? But you're, you're very resourceful. Like, you've— I think, like many instructors who have been in the game for a long time, you know, a lot of you listening to this will know that you have to keep learning. You know, I went away and did Pilates, um, instructor program and came back and understood the body on totally different level, stopped teaching things that I used to think that were the truth because I had stopped feeling them. That you've got this structural integration background, avid reader, very curious person, I would say. Always, like I've always said to people, Tom is like, he loves skiing and he— I've never met someone who's so interested in your skiing, anyone's skiing, your boots, your skis. How do you find that top buckle? How do you find that booster strap? How are those skis going for you? Sure, you love skiing yourself, but you've got this genuine interest in the whole environment of skiing around you. So I think that, yeah, that and this, you know, this is really important for people who are listening to this. They're in the industry is get out of the box, get out of the resort and start learning in lots of other different places. So that you can start being more creative as a coach as well. Because if you hadn't have picked up that, that book or been open enough to go, yeah, skiing and art, that's exactly the type of thing that Tom Ghelli wants to listen to, then you might like looking back at the '70s where people are like, yeah, like the technology is different, you know, like why would you learn from the oldest, you know? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that. That's good that that comes across because it just made me think when we were— when I was over in Canada with you, we would, you know, be like, okay, you're here, Tom, to get some footage and film some stuff. But then 3 hours passed and we've just gone and worked on each other's skiing, you know. I'm like, Demelza, can you just try this and tell me, do you feel diff— you know, like we— I can't help. Yeah, that curiosity part. And it comes back to again, like, is it just me? And so I— and I really am curious to know, does this also help you? And what do you feel back? Because then I need to know the difference between my perspective and words and interpretation on it versus yours. Like, I even remember the, um, when I was— we were working on, on the steep pitches at this— at Silver Star short turns and the top of the turn, and I was sort maybe we're talking about this surf turn a little bit. Um, yeah, and you were like, oh, it's like fishtailing.

It's a fish, like drifting a car, drifting the tail of a car out is what, what I felt in that.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, great, and that can build. I can put that on there to know that if what I'm saying with this regards to this particular thing, I've got another experience. Oh, when I showed my friend Demelza, she felt it like this, and she, she explained it that way.

I feel like that time we have this— usually it's about 2 to 3 weeks, Tom, where at the end of the season, like you said, you come over, we start skiing together, we start bouncing ideas off each other. And maybe I'm a bit of your test case in a way, and you're a bit of a test case for some of my ideas as well. But that actually is a good point. I think having people in your professional orbit. I mean, you and I are friends, but we also have a really great professional relationship where all the ideas are good ideas. Not all of them happen. But I think for people who are maybe in the ski industry or something similar to this, having that person around that you can really start to create with and test some of your ideas and have the confidence to say, is this crazy or is it really good? Should I give this a try? I think that might be part of that creative process, at least for me anyway, because I feel like—

Oh, definitely.

When you leave, I've got notes and notes of ideas and things that I want to do for next year, which leads me to another question. Have you got any insight on what you might be cooking up for the season ahead? What are you, what are you kind of thinking about with your own coaching, first of all?

Yes, well, so the first thing is, um, whether it had taken a while for me to get my videos shorter and shorter and shorter. Like when I first put videos on Peak Peaches Skiing, it's like an hour and 20 minutes, and I really editing— yeah, exactly. But I really felt at that time I couldn't cut bits out because I thought all these pieces led to, like, say it was filming this guy getting better at short turns. People need to see the whole journey to, um, get the same kind of result. And so I really believe that was, that was the case. And so I didn't want to cut bits out, but I've gotten better at cutting it out, making it shorter. And so I really want to make some way more bite-sized, like 5-minute solve like one problem with one kind of bit of advice type videos. Because I went back and I looked at like, say, this old video, um, that's an hour and a half long, and gone, oh God, Tom, too long, just bang on. And then there's this moment where I say something and I do it, do something. So, so this guy, I can't get him to get grip at the end of a turn in his short turns. And I've said it the same way, like, you know, got to use a bit more heel pressure backside heavy, you know, that, that, that 2 days before was like being magic, working. This guy's not working with— and so halfway through the video, he stands on the side of the slope and I go, just stand there. And I grab the tail of his ski and I say, so put this— put your skis on edge like you're at the end of a short turn. So he does that and I grab the tail of his ski and I'm down on the ground and I pull it towards me just in the same way at the end of a turn the ski slides out, the tail slides out. That's what I'm trying to fix. So I So I'd statically do that to his ski, and, and, and, you know, before— and I should say before, like, before that, I go, stand in a position where you think you need to be at the end of the turn so the skis won't slip. He does that. I bend down, grab the tail, gently pull it, and it just slides away super easy. And I look up to him and go, see, like, you think you're in the right position, but I can gently pull the ski away and, and slip. This is what's happening. So then I said, what have you got to do to stop me doing that? So I grab the ski, I start pulling, and he starts making movements to counteract that. And lo and behold, he puts his hip in a better position. He engages muscles that run down the inside of his leg to the inside edge of his heel and pushes that place that is in the right position. He moves his upper body a little bit, everything around not letting me pull the tail away. And then I go, okay, do the other side, same thing. Go on, take a run. And the video camera's rolling, luckily. And of course he goes down, fixes everything, stops on the horizon, turns around, and I'm yelling, how did that feel? And he goes, better. That section of the video, that's all I need. So, so I'm going to like take that. Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to take those and find all these moments where I've like gone through my Rolodex of this, this, this, this, this. One thing works. I'm going to try and find more of those and, and have that in the video, pick in the video library on the Big Picture site so people can go, my mogul turns, uh, my pole plant feels off. So this will be how to pole plant better advanced moguls, how to pole plant better intermediate moguls. So I'm going through a process of finally That's the way I kind of want to approach it. I'm still going to have the longer form videos for people to sort of immerse. There's some really good gold in that as well.

But there's an argument for a bit of both, really. I mean, when it comes to being on the hill and wanting to go, hey, what was that takeaway from that one short video— or that, sorry, that one longer video— having that more articulate summary is really helpful.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think it is don't throw the baby out with the bathwater kind of thing. Like, I don't because a lot of people have had some great success watching those and have loved those ones. But I think I need to fill that in. So that's, that's what I want to do content-wise. Uh, do you want to know what I, what I'm, what I want to do with my own skiing? What my main—

Definitely.

Okay, well, fingers crossed, fingers crossed that conditions allow it, but moguls. I'm really motivated to work on my mogul skiing. And so, um, I'm speaking with at the end of this week this guy named Ryuji from Japan who's this amazing mogul skier, and he— but he can't speak English very well, so I've got a translator. So I'm going to speak with him about what he's looking at in moguls because I really— I look up to him and I go, if all the people in the world skiing moguls in the moment, he's who I like So I want to learn what he's thinking and start applying it and showing my skiing and go, what do you think of this? Like, what do you think is going well? What should I work on? So I really want to work on my mogul skiing, and I have some, like, already know some things that are sort of missing there, and I think I have some, have some fixes already, but I want to kind of confirm, confirm that and work. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Awesome. Thank you. I was thinking about the, um, the podcast the other day, like, that must have been— I mean, it must have been a fantastic experience for you so far, a bit of a gift really, to be able to speak to these people from all over the globe. And not even like you, you're talking to World Cup racers, you're talking to coaches, you're talking to the people who make boots, design boots, etc. Um, and I feel like you have been able to accrue some of these creative ideas from some of the things you learn there. Because I know, you know, throughout my experience that I've had to say Alpine race coaching, for example, they, they teach things a little differently to instructors because, you know, at the end of the day, they're teaching people to ski faster and we're teaching people to ski usually with speed control, you know, or with safety or with more correct mechanics in mind, for example. But tell me, um, when did you get the idea to start the podcast, and how do you think that has, has shaped you as well as a, as a learner and as a creator, a coach on snow?

Yeah, I— the first podcast I did was with Paul Lorenz, and with Paulie. And the reason I started it was because I'd been listening to podcasts mostly to do with bodywork stuff. So that was sort of right into— it was right around that period. I was like, wow, structure integration, fascia, learning all these things and realizing when, uh, say in the therapy world, a therapist spoke with, say, a professor or a researcher or someone who's like a guru, had been doing it for ages, and gleaming these amazing insights that I could go away, think about, try with my, my clients, and see some success with. And that was all through a conversation. And then I'd realized the same thing, like you and I, when, when you get to a certain level in skiing, you start having access and being around people who are brilliant minds like Paul Lorenz. For example. And, you know, we would often carpool together, and there's that many times that if we'd recorded that conversation in the car and just like played it to the whole entire ski school, perhaps when they put their boots on, like a whole bunch of people would be inspired and have this same insight. And so podcasts are so good like that because you can reach tons of people, and it's, and it's in a way that is very natural. Like, we are having a conversation now, we're relaxed, it's just this flow. And that's just how people mostly like listening to things. Like, that's, that's just telling stories.

That's how we learn. And then, yeah, lighting up the prefrontal cortex.

And, and, yeah, yeah, like, podcasts are amazing. So I was like, I could do that. And the first ones is the audio is terrible, but I've always believed as well. Like, it's like, those things are important, of course, but it is the content. Because I'd— I can remember back in Structural Integration, this lady Ida Rolf, she was the lady that developed it. And so it's also been known as rolfing, this, this modality. And I can remember my, my teacher playing us audio tapes, and the, and the sound quality is terrible.. But you're getting a chance to hear this lady who's passed away, an absolute brilliant mind, share some things. I always thought it doesn't— like, if there is gold within something, you want to share it. And so the first one's terrible audio, but still, I was like, I just wanted to share these ideas with people and hopefully they can get that out of it. And that's the main thing. And if they don't, then that's their problem, not mine. And, uh, yeah, so it started that way and it is, it has shaped so many like new avenues I've tried. It's helped me understand boot fitting better, um, the, to mix the worlds of ski racing and, and ski instructing because you start to get like a bigger picture perspective. Yeah, on the industry instead of your own little bubble world of like, well, we do it this way in, in this system and, and and they're silly, you know, like racists don't know what they're talking about, they don't know how to control. Yeah, like, I just, I just can't stand that. It's like everyone— yeah, they just— like, people always come at something with the— with good intention. I really believe that. I think everyone, even if they might come across as maniacal or, you know, crazy, where they currently sit in their mind and think about this thing is a good place. And if they're trying to tell you to do it, it's from a good place.

Yeah, everyone's doing the best they can with the tools they have.

Yeah. Yep, exactly. And I think a podcast is a great way to, to have a more open forum format of, of sharing that.

So, and I bet it, I bet it validated some of these, um, ideas as well. I'm thinking of the, the Schlopi interview that I think you just, you reposted it because the audio was terrible or something, but he was talking a little bit about the insert that he uses. Pardon me, in his, in his ski boots. And we probably don't want to open the can of worms that is footbeds just yet. Maybe that'll be another discussion together. Um, but you know, he was describing this really, really low, uh, volume, non-rigid thing that he has in his ski boots and the way he fits his boots, etc., which was obviously sort of more for racing. Um, but you, I bet, have found lots and lots of different areas around the world, different professionals who are operating in some way, shape, or form in the ski industry that have helped you go, oh, hang on a second. Yeah, it's just like going to Interski as an instructor. It's like, wow, okay, we're, we're really focusing on this in Australia about rotation or separation. But then you go to Interski and you're like, wow, Sweden ski that way and the Austrians are skiing this way and it, it's a little different and it's really powerful still, and it's really— it's got a lot of validity and a lot of merit. So you start experimenting, right? I, I just bet that, that the podcast was something that really, um, gave you the exposure that you needed to—

yeah, yeah, be kind of— have some confidence behind some things too, because there's a lot of really smart creative people out there that, that have done new innovative things but haven't shared those ideas. Because I think it does take some bravery. Like, every time I put out a post on, on YouTube or Instagram or something, or a podcast, I open myself up to people going, you're an idiot, Tom, you don't know what you're talking— And that happens, people, because, you know, and I've gotten better at understanding it, but you never like seeing that comment pop up and go, you're wrong and here's why, and I think it's this way and you don't know what you— like, no one likes that. So the easiest thing to do is just not say anything.

Yeah, and a lot of that comes with the territory.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it's been like amazing, like it's been, uh, confidence-inspiring to do, like, find out from other people like, oh, they're doing stuff as well, or they're okay, they're experimenting as well. But, but you previously would just have no idea because they don't share it.

Um, and like you said, there's a lot that goes into creating even just a single little post or a reel or any of the videos that you do. And like, take, uh, the Eric Schlovy example. He's not about to go and like share with the world his insight on his footbeds, what he's using, what he's not using. He's like raising kids and having fun and enjoying his retirement. But you're, you know, I think it's a service that you provide for, for the community at large. You're taking some of these ideas like what's the name of the Japanese guy, the mogul skier? Ryuji. Yeah. There would be no way for his ideas to get shared into the English-speaking world. But now it looks as though whatever you discover, it's going to happen. So yeah, I think it's a, it's a, it's a really good, it's a valuable gift for the skiing industry to be able to have someone who is somewhat video creation obsessed, good at it. You know, you're getting a lot faster and you've been doing it for so many years, who is, you know, sharing all these things that you're learning.

Yeah, and I think that, like, and that's— I've always tried, like, like, the podcast is, is a free source of information for people, and it will always be that way. Um, you know, there's a little bit of advertising on there from, from Carve, but that's because I think it's a fantastic brand and, and what they're doing is innovative and sits, like, well within, like, what I think is great. But I always try and keep it very clean, and just, it's a free source of information. Um, but you know, then there's also this other side of, I have a family too and a lifestyle, and I, and there's some parts of that I have to like turn into income and, and that way. But I guess, yeah, I'm glad I, and I hope people see that I'm trying to provide it like access to all this great information that I get, you know, of prove you to and that sort of stuff. But then there's a point where if you want to know more, that I also have a job. And just like everything else, like, you got to pay for Netflix, you got to pay for, you know, like, if you want, if you want the, the privilege of that sort of stuff, there's a point where, yeah, there's, there's a line there. So, um, I guess I'm just mentioning that because I've, I really struggle internally at times with that. Yeah. But I'm glad I have a YouTube channel, an Instagram channel, a podcast that I can also just be like, hey, if you can't afford or whatever, here's some good stuff. But then if you really want to know more, I've got even better stuff behind there.

And I think in this day and age, no one's going to look down on a creator or someone who does the type of work that you do and attack you for wanting to make a business out of it and feed your family and things like that.

I understand where that comes from. Yeah, but there is— that's That's the hard thing.

There are those critics.

Yes. And then so that's what— that's, that's tough. And that's what I find is. Yeah, but, but yeah, there's luckily more people who count.

Yeah. You're out there in the arena doing the work.

Yeah.

And like you do provide— I mean, I feel like the stuff that I've been involved in with you since we started working together that you provide, you know, for free just on Instagram, um, is, is super valuable. But there's only so much that you can do really on these short-form, minute-and-a-half-long, or what is it now, 3-minute-long videos.

So yeah, um, yeah, and those things, like, there's the— like, what's been good about having my own website is I can organize that better because the— like, Instagram is great, but unless you save posts Like, like, you must go to call with it. Yeah. And, and the thing is, in Instagram, you can't search it. You have to scroll down, scroll down. Like, if you want to find some cool, interesting stuff from when I was posting in 2020, you'll be there for like 5 minutes scrolling to just get there. So I don't think it's a great place to just get your information from because you can't, like, go— it's not like a library where you can Mm-hmm. Whereas I've tried to set it more like a library, and even YouTube, you know, it's just you got to go, it's, it's basically categorized, you know, historically. And unless you know what you're searching for, it's harder to, harder to find that. And, and then it suggests other people's videos and all. So you can really go on a funny, funny, uh, rabbit hole with that as well.

Yeah. So I'm curious to know, like, who out there in the ski industry space is inspiring you at the moment and why?

Uh, I, I really do think Carve are inspiring me because— so there's a— so I'll say there's a company that inspires me, and that's Carve, because they are looking to really involve technology and, you know, artificial intelligence learning large language models into like all the data they collect. And so I love the guys in, in the team. That's the thing, it's not just this company, it's the people in the team. And I've had a great opportunity from— yeah, very passionate, and they're so open-minded. And so that I really appreciate too, because a lot of the time when you speak to people, they, they come from their perspective, and they're always speaking to you from that perspective. Whereas Carver's like, we have a chance to re— we begin again with how we, you know, measure it, what we call things. Like, there's going to be some changes to even like some of the metrics that are being used and what they're calling it instead of the way the classical way it's termed in skiing. And I just think that's so innovative and very cool. So I, so I'm inspired by them and I love being able to, you know, work alongside them and, and, and, and help them.

It's exciting to see how that can actually enhance our work as ski coaches as well. Absolutely. This tool, you know, people who use Garmins don't quit, um, getting coaching for their triathlon, you know, discipline, if that's what they're into. So now as the partnerships increase, it's like, you know, it's, it's gone through an evolution as a technology itself, but I see it going in this direction where it could become a really handy tool for coaches. It's not going to replace a coach, full stop. Yeah. So that, that is, that is really exciting. That's a big, it's a big moment in the ski industry.

It is. It is. So, so that's a company that inspires me. Skiers that are inspiring me at the moment, like Ryuji from Japan with his mogul skiing. And there's actually quite a few Japanese mogul skiers, um, as well that just really stand out.

They love it over there too, you know.

Yeah, just the precision. Yeah, exactly, in their movements. Um, really jealous of how much they get to practice. I would say that's one Sorry to go off on a tangent, but that's one thing. Like, I'm sitting here in Sydney, Australia. The ski season has started in Australia, but it's pretty poor. There's not much open just yet. It'll get better for sure. But for me to go skiing, it's quite a, you know, it's an effort. I have to drive 6 hours. I've still got my sons back here at school, my wife, you know, as well. And so, you know, to go skiing is not just as easy as just, I'm just going to go out and practise for the morning or whatever. And then in the Northern Hemisphere winter, like, it's a long way to get to snow. And so, yeah, I wish I had more time to practise. But then luckily I've had the, you know, the chance to think about this and go, well, that's also not just a disadvantage. Because I, I sit here and I go, right, well, when I get on the snow, I'm going to maximise that time. Yeah. To the nth degree. Because I charge it.

It's so much more intentional.

Yeah, exactly. So, like, before I came over to Canada, I didn't sleep a wink on the plane because, because I'm looking. Yeah. So excited. And I'm, and I'm watching my ski videos and then I'm watching who inspires me, like Ryuji, and I'm trying to figure out what are the differences. And so then when I get to see, you know, see some good snow, go skiing with the Mälzer, I can work on this. And so it's an advantage because it— like the breaks we've had are an advantage. It takes you away, think about it, and then come back in with real intention. And so, you know, in the past I would be skiing yeah, like 200-sometimes-plus days a year, which was great for the volume. But now I, I still think I'm actually getting better each season. And, you know, I had nearly up to 6 weeks in the Northern Hemisphere season, which is nowhere near as much. And then the Australian season, I'll probably get, you know, 4 or 5 weeks total. So it's not that much, but if you have if you have intention, if you have identified what you want to work on and can see a pathway through, wow, like you can, you can, you can improve.

I really feel like I've always thought sometimes in my career that the old saying that there can be too much of a good thing, you know, um, when I was doing back-to-back seasons, I'm working at Wigley's, I'm doing a full heli ski season, then back to Australia running the kids' ski school, demo team, everything. And, you know, on the outside looking in, many people can say, oh my God, that's just— you're living the dream, but you're so tired. And if it's not— you still— I felt like I was still enjoying my minutes and my hours on the snow, but I was sick of being in the mountains. You know, I wanted to be, you know, to the ocean. That was sort of my own experience, my own story. But I find now just doing one season a year I'm still really excited to ski even at the end of the season. I'm not like trying to wind it down and thinking to myself, God, I'm going to be back on snow in 2, 2 and a half months. I need to get out of my boots as soon as possible. Like this year, I wanted to keep skiing as long as I possibly could, which is— which I think is a new experience for me anyway. Now just doing the one, the one season, which is great. But yeah, I think you've got to really find a way to make the most of those Yeah, restrictions that you have. You're living in Sydney, um, but you still get to come over and ski full days and do that.

And I think there's a lot of— I mean, I think that's the majority of skiers in the world. We don't have the opportunity always there to ski because it's a seasonal sport. But I guess my message to those people right now is don't let that get you down. Just find out what it is you want to improve, because if you like the feeling of improving and getting better, which I think just about everyone— would you like to get better? Yes, please.

Okay.

Yes, you, you don't have to be spending all that time there, but I think you have to have a plan. You have to have identified what's going on. Um, and I think that's like with the library, but also for just video, like the first start. Don't you find like it's weird how often We like, we get someone saying the academy and they haven't posted any video. It's like, we can't really help you. You could describe something to us, but the picture is often different. Yeah, yeah. And so that's another great thing about, about Carve too, like video or just some kind of information that you can start with as a starting point. It's like, okay, I've identified here's where I'm at, I want to go towards this. But if you don't have that, it gets very hard. Like, I think that's like step one, and then you need the guidance, and then, and then you need the time to go out and practice it yourself, and then, you know, recheck again, assess, intervention, reassess, repeat. You know, that's— it's not that hard, but so many people just don't do that step.

They've got to have the video. Yeah, but, and now that online coaching— I mean, you, you got in early And there are a number of other different channels and ways that people can access information about skiing and do essentially ski classes online when they're not at their resort. So I think people are arriving on snow with more of an idea of what they need to do or more of an intention of like, hey, yeah, today or this holiday, this Christmas with my family, I'm going to work on my short turns, and I've got these 3 exercises that I saw online that I'm going to try. And hopefully that means that people will be getting better and that involvement in the sport can continue to bloom and to expand, because there's that stuff in there as well. I was just sort of thinking about how Japan, they have such a passionate culture around moguls. It reminds me of growing up in Australia skiing. We just skied nothing but moguls because it was the most fun. But now resorts are— some resorts don't even really have beginner mogul runs. And one of the things that excites me in the ski industry now is there could be a way, maybe we should try and do it, is say to resorts, hey, get, get a freeride park that is made with those waves. I can't remember what they're called. So that people can learn how to learn the skills to ski moguls, become much better skiers, and make a lifelong sport out of it, versus— pardon me— only be a skier when it's beautiful and groomed and soft. Yes.

You know, yeah, I, I think I totally agree. I think what you're kind of angling at here is when so many days at the resort are not ideal for carving conditions. Yeah, yeah, right. Or like piste-style skiing. Yet that is probably the way most people perceive what you do when you're skiing, even short turns. I don't think people read it like— I think sometimes people just think that's just a, a way to get down, but a narrow—

yeah, or something.

Yeah, yeah. And, and yes, that is a reason, but I think what you learn— I reckon what we've learned from skiing in Australia is because there's— the days are so varied in terms of like ideal conditions to not ideal. If you want to have fun and make the most of your trip, which might have no good groomer days, but however, you might be able to get some fun enjoyment out of working a short turn or skiing in some chopped up bumpy stuff, you can, you cannot feel like your trip is wasted. And, you know, I know a lot of East Coast American skiers, East Coast Canada similar kind of conditions. They get so many days where it is not like the lucky people in, in Utah and Aspen get way more good days like that. But I think if you're not in those areas, you have to, you have to— I think it's a great idea to really try and figure, like, get an understanding of what the full spectrum of, like, enjoying skiing. And that's why I think park skiing's amazing too. Uh, because so many great park skiers come from like the East Coast where they've got this tiny hill, but then they've got jib rails and jumps. And because you don't need perfect snow all the time to do that. But I think if people just realize there's really some enjoyment in, in all these other aspects of skiing, it's not just carving, that they can really, yeah, maximize every day on snow.

It doesn't have that glamour effect though, like being able to saying to people, yeah, I've been sessioning the park all day, or I've just learned a corkscrew something or other, or I've been taking carving lessons and now I can put my hip on the snow. That has like a certain amount of glamor to it in the ski world. Being able to say that you can sort of ski moguls pretty well, people usually just look at you and go, well, you must be weird or made of rubber or have great knees or something. But wouldn't it be great if they had in every resort, just like they do with, uh, you know, freeride parks for people to learn rails and boxes. Imagine if they had a park or some kind of obstacle course, like the beginner mogul park, which had the, like, the progressional things.

Just like you can do a box that's 4 meters wide and long. Yeah, like, so then even a 4-year-old kid can slide a box. We should be having a mogul section where everyone can like get to the fun feeling of like whoop, up and down, up and down, up and down. But then there's not like— it's just up and down and they don't have to have— it's not giant bumps, it's just like you said, these lumpy waves like speed bumps but big ones. And I think there's a real missing opportunity. And like the places on the East Coast, the smaller resorts, is like if if they just put those in, you can still have a great time on an icy day. You can have a great day when it's slushy. You can even— low visibility, because you're not going that fast. Exactly.

Yeah, well, what we know is that when you, um, start to dive into the art of using your legs as shock absorbers, that then applies itself to your carved turns, to your crud skiing, to your bump skiing, to your ability to jump up on a box lift your legs up underneath you, like the breadth and the skill level of the average skier will go up and everyone will be enjoying it a lot more. And my, my thinking, my theory is that then that would bring about more skiers back into the industry, younger people back into the industry, because skiing is not accessible to a lot of younger people because it's hard. Well, first of all, it's expensive. It can be very difficult, so there's accessibility issues in there as well. But usually a lot of skiers get to a point where they can get down most runs all right, they steer clear of bumps because that's just really hard, which it can be. But if resorts were set up with that in mind, they might find themselves all of a sudden people turning up to hire in lessons going, yeah, I just had to go in that park and I think I, I think I need to go into the moguls now with a a ski instructor who can teach me how to do this properly, you know?

Yeah, I would— I was, I was thinking about that, like, another perspective on, like, having that wouldn't just maybe bring new people all the time. I think what would be great— and this is speaking a little bit selfishly because I don't want the— all the places I ski to be busier— but if the same people spent more days doing it. That's a, that's a more sustainable business model too. If someone's like, yes, I'm going to ski more often because there are opportunities for me on the days when it's not great, I'm not just gonna buy like 5 days in a whole season. I'll buy the season pass. Exactly. Because I'll do 15, because I know even in springtime when, you know, there's still snow and it's slushy, I can do some moguls, I can work on some other things, uh, in there.

But that's a good point.

Yeah, I thought about that actually. Yeah, yeah, like that's sustainability. But, but, but there has to be the opportunity and I guess kind of some like encouragement to say, hey, this is something to work on. And I would even say like probably a lot of people listening to this are not young, they're a bit older, and you don't have to be like— there's this misconception, I believe, that that mogul skiing is like harsh on the body, but intermediate moguls, if you do it well, it's just like carving. Like carving can be very harsh on your body.

Yeah, um, you know, and you need always the same amount of absorption in the middle of a really fast carve turn is what you need to absorb a mogul, you know, as you go through that float phase.

And you don't have to be skiing bumps just like zipline absorption style to, to enjoy what bump skiing, uh, you know, offers, which is just interesting. It's interesting. You don't have to go as fast. Like, there's this terrain. It's sort of like that in-between freeride workout.

Yeah, I mean, people go to the gym to walk away sweaty at the end of it, whether they're doing like box jumps or, you know, you're CrossFit or you're just training yourself, you know. I feel like you go and ski, have a mogul session, you've actually had a really good workout.

Yeah, yeah. Remember that session in Silver Star, uh, you, you came along, uh, to with the ski school, and at the end of that, it was a really hot day. Oh my gosh. But even some of the, like, the guys and girls training for the Level 4 after that clinic I ran on the bumps, they were like, wow, I am exhausted, I've never skied so much. Um, yeah, I've been, been that tired. It's like, oh well, that's probably why you're not getting your Level 4 yet, because if you're not doing it that way, then you're not gonna— you get better. Yes, it is, it's a physical activity, but that's the fun challenge. Like, why do people do marathons? Why? Because there is a real enjoyment in getting sweaty, in, in doing something physical.

You're gonna train like an athlete if you want to get your level 4. You have to be prepared to, um, be an athlete, you know. Yeah. And I think— and that's tough, I think, for a lot of instructors who are going to those high levels because you've seen it, I've seen it. They're trying to ski this certain way, the picture, the demonstrations they've been given, and they're trying their hardest and they freeze up and they lose that sense of movement and flow because they're afraid of their arm being in the wrong position or the knees being too close together or whatever it is. So I think that um, moguls can really loosen people up a lot and get you moving again and remind the body like, oh yeah, that's how— this is how short I can be, this is how, how long I can be.

Yep. Yeah. But I think to like tying this little section of our chat up, I would say my message would be, I, I hope people realize that like if you can discover more ways to make more days interesting because not every day is a perfect day to go skiing and carving. Don't get frustrated. Go work on something, a drill, or find a way to get some enjoyment out of the day. I think you'll have, um, a better time. I think, I think that's what we've been, with the environment of Australia, being kind of forced into figuring out. And it's, it's definitely helped us, I believe, get, get better.

Yeah, definitely.

Because if we just waited for the days to carve— like, there was one day last season in Australia that I went fast and carved. One day. And luckily I didn't let that stop me. I just went, well, I'm going to work on my short turns and then skiing bumps. Because by the end, by, by 10:30, every run was a slushy bump run. Yeah. And, and I was like, great opportunity.

Yeah, too busy, too many people. Runs aren't wide enough or really long enough. But yeah, it definitely does breed a certain type of skier, which I think is why we do so well in the freestyle, like the mogul freestyle.

Yeah, yeah. International. If I was going to put my Archie on, if he wants to do racing, yeah, geez, that's going to be hard. But if he's like, I'll do mogul style, I was like, yeah, well, I think in Australia that's actually a great choice because you'll get more— there's more days where that can work and you can—

yeah, definitely.

Yeah, yep, yep.

I remember one year I was coaching with Jeff Books and we had, uh, well, I had a like an entry-level FIS group, their first year FIS, and we were putting, um, brushes, gates into the snow at like— it was early, we had early access to the ski resort at say quarter to 8 or something, and we were putting it into rotten snow even at quarter to 8, first thing in the morning, like it was already completely isothermic, punching through. We just, okay, we're all going to go free skiing today because gates aren't happening.

Yeah. Yeah, it is.

It is cool. So I've got, I've got one last question before we, before we wrap this up. If there was a resource or a book or a documentary or something that you would recommend for people who are interested to diversify their knowledge a little bit in the ski industry, what would you— where would you point, point us?

Which direction? Okay, well, I would say one, one book that I think is a really good read is How to Have a Beautiful Mind by Edward de Bono. And why I say that is because I would I would credit him with helping me to always approach things in terms of not right or wrong, but like explore a topic. And it's helped me to understand, like back when I was saying, I don't think anyone comes at something with bad intentions. They just see it a certain way. But I think this book will help you to see things from more multiple perspectives, which I think is a huge advantage. Not just your skiing life, but just life in general. So that, that would be one. And then I know you just finished reading this, but I think if you're interested in some of the body stuff, after I did all the structural integration kind of training and I wanted to keep finding more and more, uh, one of the, the people I found was Gary Ward, and he wrote a book called What the Foot, and it's a great book It's pretty— would you agree it's pretty easy to read?

Fairly easy, I'd say.

Yeah, you probably need to— like, if you don't know much about the body, you'll learn more about it. But if you have a little bit of an understanding about the body, you should be able to get your head around some stuff. But that will help you maybe view movement from a different perspective. And it's all about the importance of the feet and, and like this guy Gary sort of discovering uh, you know, his own, uh, model of, of how every, like, moment in, in walking, there's a chain reaction that goes up through the joints. And he's basically mapped what every single joint does at these different phases of the gait cycle. So he's put together, like, a map of, okay, if something's wrong in your neck, maybe it's not your neck, maybe it's your knee. And because you can break down and watch someone and assess them at a certain point in walking, you can see where it breaks down because it's not fitting in with this kind of almost natural, perfect, uh, gait. Anyway, I think that's a great book in terms of—

he's a skier too, right? Like, that book's not really directed towards skiing, but—

no, it's not very easy, but he— yeah, he worked as a boot fitter. Yeah. Yeah, and where he— where it all started is, um, yeah, was, was working in a ski boot shop and realizing, influencing where people stood. People would come back in going, my back doesn't hurt anymore. And he's like, but I just did something with your foot, how's that the case? And so that really sort of led him down a path of discovery. And so I think that's a, a really good book, uh, for more of an entryway to, uh, Anatomy in Motion, right?

Pardon me.

Yes. Yeah, which is—

that means motion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For therapists and practitioners, he teaches people this Anatomy in Motion. And that would be another person that just, yeah, changed my, uh, changed my life because I could see better. A bit like Skelly here, I started to be able to see all the joints and movements of the body when someone would ski, not just like lower body, upper body, or just the ankles, like seeing the, the, you know, 33 joints in the foot in a way, not just the ankle joint, was like a, yeah, eye-opener.

I think, I think for a lot of coaches or instructors, people who are passionate about skiing, we, we have to employ a sense of, I think they call it pattern recognition. I hear Dave Rastovich and Lauren Hill talk about it a lot on their podcast, and they're talking more about the familiarity that we see in these bumps of water in the ocean as we were learning to surf. But when I heard them talking about that, I was thinking about the way, you know, even when I'm seeing a skier come down through the fog, like, I'll be able to tell that it's you or Darren or this other person that I know from the ski resort, or because you learn this, this pattern recognition of what's working and what's not working. And I think that some of these resources you're talking about can plug into that skill that we develop as, as careers instructors and coaches in any sport, really, whatever you're into. So I think that's, that's quite interesting.

It's a good one. That's a great point. That is a great point. Yeah, because, yeah, the better you get at that, the, yeah, the better analysis part. Because remember, back to like, if you want to improve something you kind of need to understand like the state of play at the moment, but then also where it can go to. Like, you've got to have that, that like, where am I at, where am I going to? And these things like the Anatomy in Motion might help you be able to see, see more of that.

Um, well, it's more holistic too. Like, when Claudia's worked on me, I've had issues with my pelvis, for example, surface, surface shoulders and arms, and And you've probably worked in a similar type of way, but you'll go in with a particular pain point and they won't— Claudia won't work on that point. She's working maybe on my feet, maybe on my neck, maybe up behind my ear, um, maybe 30, 40, 50 centimeters away from the shoulder blade that's in pain. And I think, um, you know, these, uh, directions that you've gone in they are a lot more holistic in nature and addressing the body in motion, in movement as a, as a whole versus like, hmm, you've got hip rotation, let's try and quieten the hip down, for example, or, you know, this localized kind of older school approach that we've had to correcting movement deficiencies, for example, in our, in our space.

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. The other, the final thing I was going to say I think is interesting. Have you had this experience where you suddenly, when you learn about something, it was hidden in plain sight the whole time? So for example, you know, if I pointed something out in someone's skiing, you might have watched that skier on videos or at the resort thousands of times because you'd never been trained to look into a certain spot and recognize something. You it's just gone unnoticed because you never put priority or weight on it. Um, I think these books, resources, new learnings from outside of skiing and from other great skiers help you to see things that are hidden in plain sight and understand what's going on there. And, and then back to the connection, how that could connect to this problem in balancing on the outside foot, and they've just never seen it. And then you see things in a new light— boom, breakthrough. That's— yeah, I'm always looking for those things. And so that's why I love expanding my, my knowledge about anything that can influence it, from the fit of the ski boot to the length of your ski poles to, you know, where you look, where's the binding mounted. Yeah, yeah, where's the binding mounted, you know, your beliefs about how— what a strong core is, about where you can move in your body, the more you understand the big picture. Again, that's why I named it Big Picture Skiing, because I keep— kept going. It's like, it's not like Tom Gellie's skiing technique. It's not that, because Tom Gellie's skiing technique changes next season, changes halfway through the season. So like, I never wanted to be pinned down. It's like, this is the way it is, because I'm constantly trying to just keep searching and expanding it and seeing like every way that you can view how it can be done.

Yeah, I think, I think, um, one of the key takeaways that, um, I think one of the things that I've learned working alongside of you, and something that I've spoken with lots of instructors about— pardon me— is sometimes you need to trust your body. Your body is very wise. We get told to do certain things, especially when being coached to learn to ski, or you're trying to get a level 4, for example, we are trained by these sort of large associations that can't move very quickly when it comes to how they might want to change their narrative or their opinion on certain things as our understanding of movement, for example, evolves. So if they're— if you're out there and you're thinking, yeah, I've always wondered about this thing that doesn't really make sense to me, I would say go out and research that. Go and honor that hunch. Trust that hunch within yourself and understand the expertise that you have. Even though you mightn't be the expert, it might just be that could be a clue, something that will then turn into a creative thing, something that you create that could be really valuable to you in your career. So, um, yeah, yeah, I think we should probably— maybe we should leave it there.

I mean, there's—

let's leave it there. Lots of places. Yep, we could go from here and we'll probably, um, open up on— pretty keen to talk about footbeds and feet and things like that because that's another one of those things, you know. I've been in and out of footbeds for my whole career and now I'm out of them and very happy with your, um, support of that validation of like, yeah, no, keep doing that and this is what you should try and not try. Because I just so struggled with it and it never made sense to me. But I didn't trust my own knowledge. I didn't trust my own body when my body was saying, this is not right, you can't move. And to the point where I would just take them out and think I was like being naughty or doing the wrong thing. Don't tell anyone I've got no footbeds because I just can't make them work.

So Yeah, and I think I would like to— I think we should have that conversation. I think I would frame it around— it's not— I, I would steer it away from the narrative of, of the footbeds thing because it— I think that's part of the problem is it is centered around that being like an essential, whereas I think there's a— there's this— my idea of it now is like there is this ideal ski boot environment that you want to create, and that's what it is. It's, it's about that. It's not—

and the footbed is just a small part of that.

Yeah, just like this is like— no, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's, it's, it's that part that frustrates because I know we said we're going to finish, but yesterday the— some, some friends from Denmark and, and the Netherlands arrived in Sydney and I went to go say hi to them and they're like, a couple of them, 3 of them, startlickers, like, like high certified fully Austrian instructors, great skiers, ski bumps well, carve everything, super cool. And, and, you know, so they're in this house in Sydney and their ski gear is all on the ground because they've gotten off the plane just recently. I said, hey, can I just ask you, can you show me your ski boots?

This is you again.

This is me again, you know. I'm just like, wait, hey, we've got our coffee. This is— yeah, it's like, rather like, how was, how was your winter? It's like, can you show me your ski boots? And so they show me their ski boots, and then I go through this process, which you were privy to when we did the camps with all our guests, of just explaining a perspective on what you're looking for in your ski boot setup. And so we go through and test these things. And so we'll talk about it in a podcast, but like, long story short, one guy had a pair of, uh, footbeds that were made by, in inverted commas, like, the best ski boot shop at the bottom of some resort in Austria, and everyone had recommended it. And after we explained it and looked at it, everyone in the group, even though that none of them make footbeds, they're looking at 'that is terrible.' And the guy's like, 'Yeah, it is. I haven't even used it yet.' He's like, 'I haven't done turns on.' And but they understood why. But then another guy, his footbeds he's had for like 4 years, and they were very minimal, and really they didn't add, change, or do anything detrimental. So they were like, 'Great, it was good.' So he didn't need to change that part of it. But 2 of them out of the 4 had a non-ideal part of their ski boot, which was what their foot was interacting with, that was not what they wanted. After we explained, like, hey, so what do you want in this part of the turn? Where do you want your foot to be? How do you want to be able to pressure it here? Okay, now put this part of the boot in place. Does it add or detract from it? It's as simple as that. It's leaving these other things aside and like just measuring it on like, what do you want? Does this thing add to that? Does it do nothing? Does it take away? And, uh, so we should— that, that's where we should go with it. Like, what do you want to do in a ski turn? Does your ski boot allow this or stop it? If not, change it, try it out. If it's better, stick with it.

Exactly. And you're the one that knows, like, you're the expert when it comes to your body. Exactly. And boot fitters, they have— they come to, like you said, there's no— like, they're doing the best they can with the knowledge they have too. Like, there's no poor intentions going on here. That's right. They've been—

they're not going like, let's make this footbed to ruin this person's day. No, they're like, this is gonna be the best thing for this skier. Um, and I just think it's Like anything, I think if you just stop at that point of like, I think I've figured it all out, that's a dangerous sign. Like, I'm always looking for that, and I know I'm going to get some life lesson whenever I have those moments. I know usually a day or two, a week later, something happens where it's— you get slapped in the face and you go, you don't know anything, buddy. Here's the next lesson. I just think if everyone had that thought process, things would keep evolving. Problems would get solved. So anyway, we'll leave that for another time.

Well, I'm looking forward to that conversation. Yeah, let's put that one in the calendar. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you, Tom, for letting me take over your podcast today.

Thank you for hosting.

No. Well, full transparency, it was, I guess, an idea that I came to you with because I just feel like there's a lot of people out there that probably are very— well, I know they're very curious about your work and how you arrive at the places that you do. And yeah, I hope you guys have, have found some things of value, some key takeaways in this. And thank you, Tom, for the work that you do as well in the industry and all the time and effort and heart that you put into everything. Like, you seriously care about skiing, and not just your own skiing that person's skiing, that person, everyone's skiing at a level that I've not encountered very often in the skiing industry. So thanks for everything that you do in the online space.

Yeah, thank you, Javelza, and thanks everyone for listening. If you made it all the way through this episode, thank you very much for listening. If you enjoy these Big Picture Skiing podcasts and other videos we put out, please consider subscribing to the Big Picture Skiing YouTube channel down here. If you enjoyed a particular part of this episode, why not leave a comment or a question for us? Demelza and I would love to hear from you. Okay, well, I hope this episode has brought some new insights, some help that is going to progress you just like I've done in my skiing journey to becoming a better skier. Thanks and see you on the next episode of the Big Picture Skiing podcast.