Stephen Fearing World Cup Mogul Coach - Tips For Better Skiing

Hey skiers, welcome to the latest episode of the Big Picture Skiing podcast. On today's show, you're going to meet a man named Steven Fearing. Steven Fearing is a top-level mogul coach, and I mean top. He's coached Olympic gold medalists and world champions to glory, so this guy knows about moguls. Now, I wanted to make this interview particularly sort of informative and and have a lot of takeaways. So before the show, I said to Steven, hey, the kind of the pitch of this show is imagine you were tasked with being like head of World Moguls Association, and this year you were trying to get more people involved in moguls. And so you're speaking to people that don't really like moguls, people that love moguls, people that are maybe tentative getting into it. So I tried to gear the questions around getting information that would really inspire you, inform you on being able to make like better decisions about how you're going to approach your moguls, whether that's equipment or technique or tactics. And I think it's a really interesting approach because, I mean, you're hearing from like a guy who knows a lot. Part of doing this podcast is I'm always thirsty to learn more about skiing stuff, and in this one I definitely learned a few things I didn't really know, or it helped me understand and clarify some things I'm working on in my own mogul skiing even further. So, I really think whether you are an avid mogul skier or whether you're sort of tentative or not sure about getting into it, I think you're going to get something really good out of this episode. Steven was joining us from the country of Georgia and he was over the road at a hotel and so sometimes the audio, the background, there might be a bit of noise and I apologise for that, but I think we're just really lucky to hear from someone of his calibre. Finally, just before we jump into this episode, if you haven't yet, Big Picture Skiing is my project, it's my thing, it's, it's how I try and share my instructional knowledge, my coaching knowledge, everything I learned through podcasts like this and my own tinkering and understanding of progressing people into better skiers. I put all that into video content along with my co-coach Sam, and we successfully teach people. We're getting great results, people are really enjoying it. Just the other day, a guy who's more intermediate level. He tested out one of the drills in the drills and exercises category, and he said, far out, he could not believe how much of a difference he made just working on that one drill that was explained. And by the end of the day, he said he'd never had as much control, as much symmetry in his, uh, skis, and as much sort of confidence to go into steeper terrain. So all that through just a video. So I encourage you to check it out. And just from listening to the show, I'm going to offer you a coupon code, which is PODCAST, all in capitals. If you put that in, you'll get 25% off any subscription choice you like. So if you want to find out more, head to bigpictureskiing.com. Hopefully you'll get some results just like our friend I mentioned before. Without further ado, here is Steven Fearing talking about moguls. If we were in this imaginary environment, or the world was— they chose you as the person that was tasked with making moguls boom, more people around the world love moguls, enjoy it, find it fun. If people are going to get into moguls and this is the season they're going to try and enjoy them, would you start with technique stuff or would you start with discussing some stuff like equipment choices?

Well, yeah, that's a— yeah, it's a good question because, you know, um, obviously, uh, the width of the ski is really important to feel that you're, you're agile, you can be quick edge to edge. The wider skis, you just— it takes more time to kind of develop the transition into the turn. But, uh, that being said, you know, I've skied all kinds of skis through natural moguls, um, crud moguls, uh, you know, piste, uh, off-piste gets skied up and you start to get moguls developing, especially in and lift accessible off-piste. Like, Whistler has quite a bit. So, you know, when you have— definitely the equipment can make it easier, um, but there's some technical things.

Okay, well, let's, let's start there because you definitely brought up the narrow ski thing because today's trend is, is, is generally wider skis. So a good tip if someone was going to really make this their mogul season, go something a little narrower. And, and like, what sort of ski, even, even lengthwise, would you say if they're confident, you know, they can ski pretty well the groomers, but the moguls are like, they don't really choose that area, what's a good ski?

Uh, in general, I would, I would stick to a 180. Um, I know competitors are going shorter, like 77, 72, but I, I would stay over the 180 mark. Um, then that would be based on weight, uh, you know, physical strength. You know, you could probably go a little bit longer, but 180 seems to be the most well-rounded length for, for what I, I've seen. The, the width of a ski, and as you said, it's just really difficult to find something in the waist that's less than 75. You know, you get those, those wide waists, and so what happens is it just takes so long for you to get kind of from that edge flat get you— it's a long transition, and the long transition is probably where you get that, you know, overspeed feeling, because you want your transitions to be as quick as possible so that you're spending more time on the, on the flex and the edge of the ski. Uh, so, you know, there are some, um, all-mountain skis that you can find a thinner waist. Those will just allow you, you know, they won't be as great as, as the wide base for powder skiing, but it'll be something that when it gets skied up a bit— Freddie, I've enjoyed the powder in a narrow waist ski, and as it gets skied out, you just have more opportunity to ski different ways through, through different, different pitches and off-piste. So it's good.

Yeah. And what about— so when you're mentioning that, that 180 length So say maybe we're talking about guys there, like, what are people going to feel between a longer ski versus going shorter? Like, what's— what advantages would you feel actually having that little bit longer length when you get into the bumps?

Um, definitely for me it's a 4.5 balance because, uh, even in a free ski situation you're going to want to have a little bit more of a tip contact, you know, never straight down the pylon, but there's different places on the mogul you can have that tip contact. And I, I think people, um, and the short ski, you'll find as the tip of the ski on a short ski gets flexed, it gives a real difficult fore and aft balance situation. The longer flexes just give you a smoother kind of a wider base to stay balanced, not horizontally, uh, kind of front to back. Yeah, front to back. Yeah, I know that's my position.

Yeah, and I know I've, I've felt that, and it was kind of surprising and counterintuitive first because you think taking a longer ski is going to make it more difficult, but if you have the right approach a longer tip kind of interacts with the next mogul sooner and can actually make you feel like you get control sooner.

Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, um, you— we talked a little bit before we started the broadcast about, you know, trampolines and etc. And it's, it's like if you get a wider, like a super tramp, and the bounce and the flex is so smooth, the bigger the trampoline. And then you get the small trampolines like these you see in the '70s workouts and they're just a little bit more erratic kind of feeling. Yeah. You just get thrown around. So it's kind of the same feeling of the ski flex. The, just the more base foundation you have, it gives more leeway for you to, you know, to have a, I'll call it a wider center of gravity because your base will just feel more controlled. Without getting pushed around that radically.

Yeah. And so if you were to say, like, say for, for, for ladies listening, like, a longer ski for them is probably encouraging them to go like into 170 kind of area. Is that— is it— would that be correct?

Yeah, I would, I would say, uh, 170. But I, I would even say a strong skier, you know, they can and when you can stick around that, uh, 180 mark, you know, maybe not go to 180, but 175. Cool, etc. Yeah, and it just feels better at high speed too, you know. Yeah, just find more stability because you're not just going to get a ski just for mogul, so kind of broadens your, your opportunity to use the ski in a multi-conditional situation.

And then the sidecut, because I remember we had, we had a chat, uh, sort of around the COVID period, just, uh, you and I. But I was talking to you about skiing slalom skis and more shaped skis in moguls, and that definitely comes with its own challenges. So would you have any kind of advice around choosing, yeah, the radius and sidecut in a ski?

Yeah, again, there's limited choices, but definitely for mogul, the bend of the ski and the bend with the edge combined, that's where we kind of developed this, you know, the sidecut or the shape. So if it has too much sidecut, so extreme in, you know, tip and tail if you put the ski in, it's gonna get kind of an over— as the ski flexes into the face of the model, it's gonna get that, that over arc. And it's just, it's really difficult to control, uh, the ski to stay under you because it'll just overflex and it'll go left and right, east and west too much. So it's, yeah, trying to find a ski that doesn't have a big difference and it's, it's something that, you know, if you can stay within, um, you know, kind of the, the, like, high tens, high team, you know, like an 18-meter—

like, what is it? What's a perfect— what's a proper mogul ski? Like your ID ones that you have, like, what are they radius-wise?

Well, and it's funny because a lot of the European countries I'm going up on this, but, uh, they use a, a junior GS ski as kind of the foundation for their ski. Um, so, you know, this is— you work in the slalom ski, it has much of that, much more of that radical cut. So the junior, um, and I think they just choose the junior structure because of the length, you know, you're not going to find an adult Um, but you know, with the, the ID.1, um, in today's, I, I would say, world of skis, and if someone's walking into a ski shop and they see an ID.1 on the wall, they're not really going to see kind of the shape. You really have to look closely to kind of see that, that mild, that mild, uh shape. But it was very important for us to have that in there. Even it looks like a '70s straight ski, there is shape to it. It's just less pronounced. And it's, it's easy to, you know, to use more flex of the ski to kind of get that radius of the ski working for you.

Yeah. And I should say, for people that don't know, like what you're, you're talking there about ID1.

It's—

you actually helped create this company, which is a mogul-specific ski brand company. And so that's why it's great. You're giving insight into what, you know, if people professionally skiing moguls and only skiing moguls are choosing a ski with certain characteristics, that's why you're also suggesting, like, if you're going to get a sort of an all-rounder, steering a little towards longer length narrow underfoot, a little less shape, they're all going to help you. Now maybe if we— well, maybe we'll come back to boots and stuff later, but if we think about those characteristics in the ski into technique, say, uh, because I know you've talked about like, like part of control is speed control is turning, which I think every skier who's done a bit, they know you turn, you slow down. I don't think a lot of people realize that the absorption is, is a big factor. Uh, how much is the absorption a factor of speed control?

Yeah, well, it's, you know, if— well, you look at it as, you know, you're contouring. Um, and so let's say you have a flat course of 200 meters, and then you have 200 meters of moguls. And we ran a rope along each one and we pulled the rope straight, the length of the rope would be different. So the idea is to use kind of that mobile contour to actually spend more time in the present or in the place that you're at. So as you said, Tom, if you're not having the correct absorption extension time Things will get out of, um, sync.

You're not following the rope. Yeah, you're going down.

Accelerate.

That's— yeah, okay, okay. Yeah. And so, you know, you go ahead.

Sorry, go ahead. No, so I— the idea is I'd like to take the head, shoulder, and the pelvis. And you, when you look at that kind of, let's say, that imaginary plane that like that flat line plane and you lift it to the top of the, top of the mogul. So I'm sorry, my hands are out there, but up to the top of what the mogul is.

Almost like when you have a, have a rope down the side of a roped-off mogul run, that rope line is almost like shoulder height.

Yeah, uh, no, I would say I'd like to take the example of the top of the mogul, the crown.

Okay, the top of the mogul. Okay, there. Yep.

So So I use that as kind of where my, you know, my base foundation thought. And what I try to do is I will try to get my head, shoulders, and my pelvis never to change distance on this line because it's the flat line. You take away the trough, you take away the face and the backside of the mogul. So I'd never want those 3 points or the upper torso including the pelvis to go up and down on that line. I want it to be consistent the whole way. That makes sense to you? Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, trying to keep that level, that level position. A lot of people will, let's say in the absorption phase, they'll drop the pelvis lower than the top of the mogul. Or they'll be at the top of the movement, they'll lift the pelvis above, higher than the top point. So, you know, each person, you know, they'd like to think about different things. I use the 3 checkpoints, maybe not all 3 at the same time, but it's, is my head level, shoulder level, is my pelvis level, is it staying on that that consistent plane.

And so, so with that, like, that speed control thing, and I guess you trying to bring the world into, like, enjoying moguls more, would one of the biggest, like, areas people wanting to enjoy moguls need to improve be absorption? Would you say that's probably the weakest skill, or is there another one?

What would you put those— I put absorption and extension into one basket, and you can't really have one without the other. Um, I would say neutral position is where people get confused. Um, like they over-absorb or they absorb with no tension, so they kind of collapse and they end up sitting on sitting in the position instead of letting the mogul and the skis kind of press and move the legs, you know, the quads and hip flexors up. People just tend to drop into a low position. Extension, it's a lot, a lot of people, because they get nervous, they'll overextend. So they'll kind of create a brace in overextended position. Um, and they do it early because the faster they do it, the more safe they feel. So in the absorb phase, you gotta have tension on— I'll call it tension. Um, and of course the alignment, making sure that the feet are under the hip, the knees are in front of the toes and letting the mogul and the ski push your absorption upward opposed you sinking into absorption.

Because back to your— back to your, like, lying down the moguls. Now you've just stuffed up your following, not letting the pelvis drop and everything drop below that, that line. So, so big factor, people, people absorb and sink their bum lower than that line. Main, main kind of issue. Okay, cool. Then second factor, second point.

So you got the, the the crown or the top, because ruts change. And so you— it's, it's never a straightforward, um, flat point. The top, depending on where you go through, could be at different levels. And so if you— when you go through that crown phase, people tend to extend, um, very rapidly and quickly to try to get into a braced position. And you need to just have a patient kind of, uh, it's like you stall yourself. You wait till your, your heel of your boot passes that high point, and then you start extending, but you don't extend with so much force or extend with so much aggression, or, you know, it can't be like a quick— it has to be kind of a kind of a, like, like you're pressing, um, you know, not like hitting the mogul, but you're kind of pressing the mogul. And it has to be kind of in a gauge, you know, kind of 1, 2, 3, 4, instead of whatever, everything at one time.

So to be like the equivalent of like the movement shouldn't create— if you're off the moguls, it shouldn't create you kind of unweighting or doing almost like a light jump, it should be like you coming up slowly out of a, out of a squat that doesn't unweight you, right?

And then I would say it, it's more like, um, an inverted squat, like the legs pressing away from you, not kind of a squat where you're kind of lifting the hip. It's more of weight to the back side and pressing. So if you're inverted down into like negative space So like leg press upside down.

Yeah. Yes, yes. Okay. Is there, is there some kind of device you've ever used or invented for dryland training to, to do that, to help athletes?

Oh, well, I— there is an invention out there. I know the US ski team utilizes it for their, their alpine and mogul skiers. You know, we'll have to put it in the comments later because I had to send it to you at the name, but it has a— it's basically a tension. So you stand on this apparatus and it gives tension both ways. So it kind of has that effect, but it has not direct weights, but it has a tension.

Um, yeah, yeah, okay. Not like, like almost like a— you're sort of standing on a spring that has resistance in a way, and so you push down and it has a bit of resistance, but it goes down and then it pushes you back with resistance.

So yeah, so you have what, eccentric, concentric? You have to control both sides.

Yeah. Do you think it's effective? Like, does it give the same feeling?

Yeah, yeah, you know, I've— I know that the Alpine team, especially the slalom skiers, have had success, and it seems the mogul skiers are having a great year. And, um, I don't think it's a piece of equipment you can find quite, quite easily, but, um That being said, I think a lot of things have combined in training. You know, some people just get to the gym and they, uh, any gym will work. You know, you just have to make sure that when you're doing your legs day, you're just not doing, um, let's say a squat. You're, you're doing, you know, a hack squat, squat, leg press, and kind of a cycle so that you're getting all your different, you know, tensions and, and flexion of the muscle, and you're utilizing all directions. And bands, bands are another great thing, you know. We use a lot of bands, especially in Canada. You can probably look up, and Kingsbury has like a recent video from the beginning of December where he uses the bands, which is quite common in Canada, using a lot of jump technique where you're pressing tension bands.

Bands. Yeah.

So you get, so you get resistance both, both ways. So it's kind of like a poor man version of what I'm describing at the USDT training center.

It does make sense though. Like if, if the feeling of extension in the moguls is not like a squat in a way, because you, you, you don't want your hips to really be rising. You're trying to press your feet sort of down and follow the trough. It's why probably it's hard, like, you know, we always learn by having something that we can relate to, um, and so why it probably takes just some practice of, you know, breaking it down. So, you know, if you had, uh, your, your army of of mogul ski instructors, would you get them like as part of their progression for teaching extension to, to make people like make, make them teach their guests to do this slowly? Like really get the, like work on guests getting this slower extension. Like stand on the top of a mogul in a flex position and then practice the time of extension over and over until they like kept the hips level.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a lot of times we'll, we'll build We call them the rollers or the waves, and it's not just for absorption. It's actually using timing of absorption extension and turn kind of in a combination. It's just a lot easier in a wave because you have that, that constant same direction, uh, top of the mogul opposed to a rut where it might be angled at different directions. So it's hard to sometimes feel that.

Yeah, so you take away that— the angle part, and suddenly you can now just work more easily on, on just a straight up and down, down movement. It's a shame not like more resorts have those available. Like, I guess now you're chief of like getting moguls more popular, that's what you do. You'd get every resort to build a public mogul tank, right? Like, approved.

Yeah, you know, it's in Austria this October, basically for 6 weeks at Intertex. We've gotten a good connection with them and, you know, we've put out a public Mogollon kind of an easier, let's say, kind of sports gear lane, and then we had kind of that fist competition run. And that was one of the ideas, and they're all into it, is trying to have us build different training venues for the public. So it is in the plan to do that in the future.

Yeah, cool. Yeah, I know. I, I just think if you can break something down, take away, like you said, some of the trickier parts.

It's—

you can make a lot of progress, uh, fast. Now, uh, if we went like back a step and so talked about turning, just the turning factor, what do you see as like the main mistakes people do when they turn or try and, yeah, make, make that turn shape in the moguls?

Um, well, as, as recent, and I think I can simplify it in the sense that the way people look at, you know, the front of the ski, um, I, I like to break it down as you have the inside front, you have the nose, or the nose of the tip, and then the outside. And there's especially in natural models, there's different entry points to a mogul. It doesn't always have to be in the front of the mogul. It can be on the side of the mogul, low on the side of the mogul. There's, you know, thousands of variables and kind of where you enter a mogul, but it's the nose of the tip and where that enters. And again, it doesn't have to be let's say from the front straight into the fall line, because, you know, that, that's hard for a lot of people to have the confidence. But if even if I'm coming in and I have my turn and coming into the side of the mogul, I want that nose point really kind of stabbing or directing into where I'm entering the mogul. So I like to use that even in coaching with competitors. Is, you know, they'd like to tend to use— they think, oh, we're— I'm using the tip, but it's the outside point of the tip. Uh, it's, you know, the tip of the ski.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, they're thinking about like the same as like a slalom ski would think, the tip, that it's, it's the sidecut edge part. You're actually referring to the very front, which most people never ski on, right? But you're like you want to encourage that part and people to think of that part of the ski where it's going into the bump.

Yes, so the nose of the tip, and, and practice entering all, all points of a mogul. A natural mogul, you know, can sometimes be 5 meters, 10 meters, 12, 20 meters in length. So you can enter a mogul in multiple points, multi-direction, and, and that just gives you kind of a better understanding of how the ski works. And you can do it at different comfort levels, because if I have a natural bowler and I come in with the nose at the side, it's way less intimidating than coming in to the topside front of the fall line with the nose in the ski.

So yeah, yeah. I must say, after our last chat, we talked, uh, about like coming into a bump, these different entry points, like a low line and a high line where you are sort of entering that, that next bump. And the thing I think I realized I wasn't doing enough of, or fluked sometimes, was taking a higher line, not always trying to avoid the high line. And the high line almost it actually is the slower— because I mean, of course you're extending that piece of rope that's going up and down, you aim for that one, which is the scary one— is actually the not scary line because you go slower. And the one that you want to— most people aim for the low one, that's the one you start going really fast on. So I must say, like, that was, uh, that was huge. And I had some success coaching some other people like skiing into the more intimidating part of the bump instead of the less— like where everyone else goes, and that's why there's a rut line.

Yeah, and even snow conditions. So you talk about that rut line, it looks like it's less intimidating because it's smoother, but that soft powdery snow, or even that slushy spring summer snow Putting your tips into that is so comforting to kind of control your speed and catch your body position because you just kind of stay in that, that skied out line. And it's— you have to rely more on, you know, being technically and timing perfect.

Yes. Yeah. So then what, what Uh, comes to my mind is like, I know pivot slips is like a place a lot of people start a progression, like say with kids even getting into bumps. Um, comments on, on, on pivot slips into bumps?

Yeah, no, that's definitely a, let's say, exercise You know, it's not something that I would spend a full day on, but I would probably put it into the, let's say, the structure of progression of an exercise. Yeah, but I wouldn't spend too much time on it and I would not, I probably wouldn't take a beginner, and I'm not talking about a mobile beginner, but you know, I'd say upper intermediate that could be effective as kind of a skill, but in a lower level skier, it might just end up kind of taking away the understanding of the technical way of skiing. So, you know, I think you have to wait to an upper intermediate to kind of use that, that pivot slip without this, this understanding of what the the purpose of the exercise and the goal of what you're doing. And that's a lot of things I see with coaches. And let's say they're— they know how to tell people what exercise and how to do it, but they have to understand it's, it's like, uh, you just don't prescribe it and then walk away. It's not like they're going to take that medicine and come back better. It's more of like a thing therapy, the exercise of, you know, using, um, you have to pay attention to what they're doing during that exercise in detail because just because they do it 10 times is not going to get the benefit of what they need to be doing.

Yeah, yeah, there's, there's certain things like that you can really get out of that, but you need to be, if you're coaching, make sure you're getting the student to realize those things. Hey, feel what this drill is giving you, like, that's the element we're going to take into our free skiing after the drill.

Yeah, for sure.

Talked about absorption, extension, some turning, uh, a little bit about line. What about pole planting? What do you think, uh, like, how important is it for people to spend time, like, actually working on the pole plant part?

Pull plants are very important. You have to understand, I would say, in the transition phase— and we talked about that before— in the transition of going from an edge ski to the flat ski, kind of the transfer, it's a very small— I call it a box— and whatever direction your turn is finished, that box is facing that direction. And people, you know, when, when they're skiing moguls, their tendency is to plant at the wrong time. Like, your plant should be end of turn before transition, and it has to be in a mogul— generally has to be a very short transition and very quick, quick return. Um, but you know, it's, it's looking at, uh, you know, ski instructors, or let's say sports skiers or free skiers. Um, if you see an imbalance of their pull plan so many times, it's like, are they planning at what phase of the turn is the correct point of the turn? Um, And then let's say in a big mountain turn, you have kind of that longer, you know, shape of turn. So everything can be longer from initiation to the end, and the transition obviously can be, you know, meters long. But, you know, in a mogul, you really want to keep your transitions, I would say, under 20, 20 to 30 centimeters. That's how quick your transition needs to be.

That's how true. So in that, in that transition, just let me get this right. Well, first of all, like, what purpose would you say in moguls is the pole plant, uh, making? Because I know some people, like, maybe a mistake is they rely on it so much to block them. Like, maybe do you want to speak about a blocking pole plant versus like another effect or outcome of a good, like a, a smoother bump, bump skier.

So yeah, it would be more of someone planning at the end phase of the turn. So kind of the shape, middle turn coming into the end of the turn, but plant too early. So they'll kind of block that absorption phase. So as the moment ski should be pressing up. They make kind of a down movement with the shoulder and foreplant, and they block kind of the natural absorption phase. And you really want that, you know, that transition to always be on the backside or after the top of the moment. So, you know, you don't want to plant until the top because that's where The transition is— yes. And that's the other thing I, I see a lot of people do frequently at all levels of mobile. Um, they reach too much for the plant or they reach too much for the point of pole plant instead of— I'd like to think of as like a cylinder of keeping your neutral position and waiting until your body gets to that point to plant instead of reaching out of that, that cylinder to get to the point.

So, and even though, uh, that's like— I, I, yeah, totally agree that like keeping this, like waiting for the whole cylinder to get to the transition point. But, uh, it can maybe be, um, deceiving when you watch really good bump skiers, like sometimes, and you see them, it looks like they are reaching. But would you agree, when— if that's ever happening, their whole entire body, the cylinder, is being pulled with the reach? Would that be a fair thing to say? They're not reaching ahead and out of the cylinder, it's— it's the cylinder is almost coming with the pole plant reach look?

Yeah, we could call it like projection of body or projection and directed by kind of the pole plant. Because yeah, you don't— even though you want to stay in that cylinder, that cylinder has to have projection into the hill. It can't be, you know, kind of that static because eventually you're just going to fall far behind. So, you know, I— it's kind of a term that we've just developed, uh, as you know, when you leave the mobile, you project your cylinder projector neutral towards the next model. And it's hard for people to know, it's not like diving into it. It's exactly like an old-school projector, you know, putting out the film onto the thing. It's kind of throwing the picture from the small point and going to the big screen.

Yeah, yeah. Not— and just clarify, you were saying it's not like you're diving, which is almost like leaving your feet feet behind. It's, it's actually taking everything like a broad jump almost.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the same in, in surfing. I've just taken up surfing in the last couple of years recently, and, and, and that's what they teach you to do to get back up the wave. They, like, the, the, the surfers lift and project everything up the wave like, like a broad jump. So I think it's in a, it's in a lot of sports that projection thing. Um, yeah, so that's, that's cool. Um, so I think what I've realized is a good clarification is like the point of the transition, I think people probably place in the first place too, too far back. Like, like they're trying because they're all like worried about control, so they're like finishing sort of like not on top of mogul, like on the, on the face they can see So their transition is already too— like, it's not— they're not waiting long enough. So then their pole plan is too blocky, too early. So everything needs to be shifted later, and it needs to sit on that, on the, on that peak part, almost when you're coming to the, to the back side of the bump, that transition point.

Yeah, and, you know, good point on how people kind of stay sitting in that trough or kind of go into that defense motion. And you have to think again of that multi-direction, you know, it's just not keeping your feet under you, fore and aft. A lot of people will come into the mall world, let's say it's a right-footed turn, we'll call it, you know, left, left turn.

People, yeah, right footed turn. Yeah, yeah, no, you can do it. The skiers, the people here are skiers, they'll know right Foot up.

Yeah. So a lot of times they'll take the left side of the pelvis and they'll absorb in a— instead of keeping the hip level and absorbing with it in a level plane, they'll drop the inside hip lower and have a deeper absorption on the inside point, and that will get you inside and back as often as this 4 and a half feet position.

Yeah, that's really—

I call it a— so I call it like a soft hip, you know. It's like, you know, don't, don't let that inside hip get soft. You don't want to lift it, but you definitely don't want it to kind of melt into the inside of the arc of the turn.

Yeah, okay, interesting. So that's— you would say that is when you get athletes coming through, that's probably one area you have to spend some time coaching and helping, helping them with. A lot of people, I'm, I'm guessing it's natural to, to go soft and let that inside half your pelvis drop.

Uh, all level skiers. Okay, yeah.

Okay, jumping to like then the very best I think I asked you last time who your favorite, or who you thought was the best, uh, technical, like, turns and absorption, not tricks and stuff like that, that part of mogul skiing on the World Cup at the moment. Is it still the same person? I won't say who it is. Who's your favorite at the moment?

Well, I hope it's the same. I don't think I've changed, but it's Ikuma.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and, and what was, what was the reason? Why do you think, like, what do you, uh, admire out of his technique and his, his style?

Uh, even just watching the first, uh, 3 events in December, uh, just the consistency, no matter how difficult the course is and how hard the snow is. Of the spacing, that they're far apart, or they're short, just everything we're talking about right now. He strives to do it in the right direction using the nose of his, the tip going into the point of entry, the timing of the jocheon extension. You know, this year actually we were just talking about some of that. Soft hip on the inside. Now I've, you know, I've seen he has a few incidents where he's a little bit softer on that inside hip, um, than in years past. But, you know, that's— he said, for me, when you're in the high-level competition, even if you're watching World Cup Alpine skier in slalom, adaptation at that level, it's so important. But At the same time, we don't want to copy it because it's so easy to, to look at it as like something, oh, that's going to help me. But it's better to stay in a kind of a strict line of fundamentals as, you know, let's say a skier developing or technically training, and don't do adaptation into yourself. It's something that Miles will do and skiing high speed and aggressive, but You know, you don't want to mimic those, those things that the top level skiers sometimes use.

Yeah. So on that, again, like putting you in this, uh, pretend role of like head of making moguls the new booming snow sport, would you, would you really be encouraging people to spend time doing drills? Because I don't think— I think a lot of people like taking, say, oh, they listen to this podcast podcast and they get this concept of maybe this not soft tip thing, and so they just go and think about it instead of like going to the flats, getting out of the moguls, and like say doing some, some like inside ski lifter drills or a javelin drill. And like, like how much do you think that is actually important in the process?

Um, well, I think at certain times of the year, I mean, every— all of us get out at Obviously in Australia it's a different time than North America, uh, Northern Hemisphere, but you get to a ski area, maybe get some miles in the first 4 weeks and it's really boring and you don't have a lot of terrain open. Those are the times to really like make it interesting and maybe apply different, different training techniques. Just to keep it interesting for yourself and prepare you for when, you know, you don't want to slow down. If it's a, you know, perfect day, middle of season, you don't want to be, you know, going with the groom. You want to be, you know, putting the fresh powder. And then as the day progresses and it starts turning to moguls, you already want to have kind of your, your foundation there and just enjoy the day. Because that's, I think, the goal of most skiers out there.

Yeah, great point. Great work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a, that's a really good point. I would say skiing in Australia has taught me that because we get probably more days that are less than fantastic, go and rip it up. So you just learn to find enjoyment and challenge in, in doing like drills and different tactical sort of trainings like that. Um, yeah, so I think that You know, throughout a season there's always days that are less than— you know, I think North America is having an amazing start now, so I don't think there's many people doing drills. They're all skiing powder. But, but there'll be a time when maybe you get some melt-freeze, and that's a great time to make it interesting with, with drills. And, and you'd, you'd say though, they all— it always pays off, doesn't it, doing drills and exercises?

Yeah, it's Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. What would be your— what would be your favorite drills then? Like, do you still do— if you're like, I'm not maybe in the, in the groove here, are there any drills, like your top 2, that you go, okay, I know if I do these I get the feeling back? Um, or maybe were there, or maybe not now, were there?

One that, you know, I've— it's not a drill necessarily, but it's kind of, uh, you know, let's say I'll come with a wider stance and I'll do it with short turns, medium turns, doesn't matter. But it's again, right foot turn, just kind of clearing the knee, like moving that inside knee first and then driving the so that you kind of without, you know, when you use that inside knee and kind of just tilt it onto the edge, and then it's just so much easier to make that initiation. That's kind of been my go-to for the last 10 years, but I'm, you know, I haven't been doing mobile training for so long, but I still do those different concentration things on the, on the groom that I know it's, it's going to help me when I get to the mobiles. And using different stances in my groom scheme too, making sure I'm just in a shoulder width, I go shoulder, hip, tight stance, like feet are glued. I play with it in the run, you know, top to bottom. I've changed my stance many times, so Yeah, it's, it's, yeah. And the other thing I would say, holding neutral, um, again, it's not a drill, it's just something that I focus on. So making sure I maintain angles, because I think a lot of people, they lose that neutral position. And moguls, you really need to make sure that that ankle bend and knee bends, it has kind of a stopper to it. You don't extend beyond that point. So you constantly have kind of that pressure of the tongue of the boot kind of pressing onto the, on the forefoot, on the top of the, on the top of the lower part of the boot.

Yeah.

Those angles support.

Yeah, that's probably, I, yeah, I just on that. So that neutral position is not neutral as in like, oh, just chill out. It actually takes work to hold the neutral position, doesn't it? And when you say people often lose it, the first place they probably lose it is the ankle tension is gone, correct? And then, and then things like, then the hip maybe, right, like, like the hip unbends and maybe kind of you just stand up a little too straight, correct?

Great.

Yeah, yeah. And so with keeping that tension, it's more than just like resting on the front of the boots, isn't it? Like, do you want to— do you want to maybe just speak to the tension feeling that's more than just resting on the front of the boots?

Yeah, well, it's— again, it's, it's not like a— let's say you come to a stoplight, stoplight is red or green, whatever, yellow, you know, it's kind of not like on-off, on-off. It's something that— it's kind of like a dim light, and then it gets harder and harder, and it gets brighter and brighter, and then it's not like the light's off. It's just a constant adjusting of that pressure and making sure that it's never red or green or on and off. It's just Constant.

That's a good analogy.

Different parts of—

different parts of the journey where they have to, you know, not turn the light off.

Just say like those, like, you know, last 10 turns I felt my shin of my boot. No, you have to go back and it's like at turn 1 through the whole phase and turn, which part did I feel like maybe lights off? Or maybe the next turn It was red because I was powerful and a lot of pressure on the shin of the boot in the shape middle of turn, but there's nothing at the end of the turn. I'm completely off. So you have to really pay attention to the whole turn to understand that neutral position and where it's delivering its, its, uh, pressure on the shin.

Yeah, tell me if this makes sense. But it's almost like the, the feeling would be in, in that mogul athletic neutral stance. If, if I could come down as a big giant and pick you up, picking you up in the air, you wouldn't unfold. You'd stay still flexed up, right? Like, whereas a lot of people, if someone picked them up, they actually unfold. So you could be— yeah, okay, you could be in outer space, you could be in midair. The stance looks exactly the same as you are compressed on the top of, yeah, of a piece of snow.

Correct. Yeah, that is a good analogy.

Yeah. Okay, getting into equipment again, what, what could I do and what could other people do with boots and think about boot choices? What makes moguls easier when you're choosing boots?

Well, it's when we work with a lot of, let's say, different kind of flexions of boot, you have different tongues that you can use, especially in the foretip. But, you know, I would say in general you want a boot that it doesn't collapse. Like you don't feel like the ankle is just, you know, kind of folding in to no tension, but as important, you don't want it to rebound because a lot of, you know, stiff boots, you can't get any flex out of the forward. And then if you do put a lot of pressure, takes a lot of body weight, let's say your, you know, upper body into the position to get that, that flex. And the rebound is much sharper. You want to find a boot that doesn't have kind of that strong rebound and it allows you to kind of get, let's say, flex into the, the top of the foot without collapsing.

So yeah, that's—

I think, you know, that's soft. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

I was just saying that makes now total sense with the problem of you're absorbed, don't extend too quick. If you have a boot that springs you back, it's going to be harder. It's probably going to pop you out whether you like it or not.

And you know, I, I think it goes to the skier itself. How powerful they are, the weight of the skier. And, you know, if, if you really get special about it, you might want to change kind of where you're, you're adjusting the cuff of the boot, how much forward angle, or using wedges behind the liner. Into the boot, like how much are you forcefully pushing in? And I think that's so personal, um, you know, like if I went into that, I think it would get too technical, but people can play with those different things.

Yeah, so it's not a matter of like a blanket rule, hey, more forward lean will make you ski moguls better, like, like, and can you speak even from experience, you know, of there's quite a varying degree of angles in the top, like, 10 athletes in on the World Cup. Is that— would that be fair?

For sure.

Okay, well, not all of them have super steep forward lean. Some of them— oh, can you give an example? Do you know who has more of an upright boot?

Um, I can't say exactly, but, you know, I It's, it's one of those things that you really have to be coaching them to really get, get into it and see what, what their position is. Because when you see these guys outside, they're, you know, ski boots covered, the cuff is definitely covered by the ski pants, so you really can't. But you get a feel that some people have more of an up, you know, position, I would say, in general. Um, Scandinavians, um, they seem to have a little bit more of an upright, uh, cuff to the boot. Canadians pretty much have more of an angle. Japanese, I would say they pretty go, uh, off-the-shelf kind of position on, on their boots.

Yeah. Okay, and so like, say if you were speaking to the, the higher end bit, like even say myself, and I'm like, right, Stephen, I just really want to get like way better. I want to ski like I'm going to Deer Valley. I actually am going there and I'm going to ski the, the World Cup run. Like, how should I set up my boots better? Am I going to find it easier with a little more forward lean? Uh, sorry, uh, ramp angle. So like inside the boot, the boot board having more more fore lean, or again, it is personal?

Yeah. Um, I would, I would stick to personal. And if you get an inner where you're ramped up, that could actually create difficulties because as your skis is causing flex and like, you know, you definitely don't want to be flat-footed. Definitely want to have kind of those muscles in your feet moving on, on the insole. But, you know, if you get yourself into this, uh, tippy-toe almost forced position— yeah, forced position— I think it'll be uncomfortable if you're skiing with the tip of the ski, the nose of the ski, correctly. As it enters, it's just going to kind of make you feel like you're ejecting, you know, ejecting forward. Off position.

Cool.

Again, that being flat not being good too. You definitely want to be somewhere in that middle. Yeah, I would say most skis are off the shelf or in that middle.

In that middle. Yeah.

Okay.

And you're probably gonna— if you were experimenting at all with that, you would feel it in the sense what you said, if you're up to playing with that nose of the ski if you were experimenting with a ramp angle, you'd feel, feel how that would affect the, um, that interaction. Okay, cool. Do you think that shorter poles make a difference? Do you think that if, if everyone's going to go out mobile skiing, they should try and ski with shorter poles, or is that not totally necessary?

No, not— no, that, that's very specific to kind of event competitors. But I would, uh, I would, uh, I use myself, I use kind of the adjustable. I have a pole that can go up to 100 to 120, and you know, it's— there's so many light, well-ended, different length poles. And when I'm freeskining in different parts of the mountain, I like to change the length of my pole Um, if I'm in a really, let's say, specific bowl course, I still stick to not a competitor length but more a comfortable length for me. And, you know, I'm, you know, 173 centimeters, and I'll stick to probably a 105, 107.

105, 107.

A lot of my height, but a lot of moldable skiers They're pretty, pretty short poles. They're like 100-something that you do? Yeah, like 100, 98. Wow. That's— for me, that's, that's more of an aesthetic kind of tool to put judges than, let's say, something that technically helps them.

Yeah, okay. Hey, uh, we're running out of time here. I just had a couple more questions. The one I wanted, wanted to ask you about is the modern mogul field now compared to back when everyone had straight skis. And I would say people that come from that area and era would say it was more round moguls were formed. Now with wider skis, people can't get edge to edge, the turns kind of extended. You're seeing more these like long upside-down canoe-shaped moguls where it's like you're on a mogul and then it's like 3 meters, 7 feet or something, before you are finding the next bump instead of half that length. Are there some things people could think about or work on technically, tactically as well, to make that more enjoyable?

Yeah, um I'll just go back to Hinterthuxen. You're doing some natural mogul skiing, and it was shaped by public and alpine, and everyone skiing together. Um, I, I say learn how to go through different snow points or snow conditions. So a lot of times people try to, let's say, follow the canoe the whole way, and they're the line changes, they just stick in that line. And you, you kind of want to choose your line, and you want to go after, let's say, those powder pockets, that kind of soft section of snow. You want to go after, um, kind of like cross-rut where you're not going with the rut but you're actually crossing into it. And you can It's more about reading your line and then continuing to read forward because a lot of times people decide their line and they'll leave, but they just kind of get stuck in that immediate, you know, well, I had this 10-meter section planned out, but then they get to that 10 meter and they're like, look up, and then everything goes white and they have no idea what to do. So you have to kind of make your plan for, let's say, that 10, 12, 15 meter. And then as you start skiing, you just— like we just talked about pressure, you can't just be passive. You have to renew your vision, renew your line every couple meters, look further, see where I do to— yeah, see where you— your new line is going to be, you know. So as you come over, let's say a pitch where you can't see the moguls behind high, and, you know, don't wait until you get to that pitch point, then decide your line. As you get closer, you're going to be able to start seeing 2 more moguls, 3 more moguls, etc., etc. So make that line and use all parts of the mogul. Um, and before the prog— uh, we started taping, we were talking more, you know, about it's not one turn per mogul, especially in natural moguls. You definitely want to learn how to, let's say, keep the tension. You get to, let's say, a top and the backside of a mogul, and then you have the ability to, you know, maybe do a transition on the backside and maybe do an extra turn or an extra 2 turns and re-enter another, another Good training point is kind of that reverse trough. So like I said, cross trough, you know, trying to go to the, to the corner opposite way. And when you see moguls, go to those corners and the opposite points, and that gives a lot of good experience. So you feel more confident, so you're not just always stuck in that kind of carbon copy one turn the whole way.

Yeah, and that— because that's what happens. I think a lot of people, if they don't know much about moguls and line, they think, well, everyone else has gone here, and then that's why that canoe, upside-down canoe, is formed. So the first thing would be like, actually, you don't have to follow that. You can turn back on top of the canoe, kind of go down a little bit, come back on top of it again, like several times, and then look and look for another one to, to cross Yeah, like cross-rut kind of hit the mogul. So yeah, it's not intuitive, is it? But actually it will feel— often you're on better snow and it can lead if you have the athletic position right, it's easier.

I just— maybe to make it easy to understand, when I ski in a mogul course, I'll follow the line people are skiing 98% of the time. Time. When I'm skiing natural moguls, public moguls, natural moguls, I probably follow the line that's in front of me 20%, 25% of the time.

Cool.

You know, of course you go to Japan, they have the ski instructors and they'll make kind of that long line. And even there, um, as we talked earlier in the broadcast, we're not we're taking different points, you know, the high line, middle line, lower line. And, you know, you just don't— you don't want to get stuck into one very, very tight turn. You want to have as many variations as you can.

Yeah, I don't know if you've seen this. There was this guy I saw, a Japanese bump skier, and, uh, Ryu— I can't remember his last name, but He, he was doing in like a rut line, he was doing 1, 2, 3 turns in each, like 15 times in a row. I, I had to record it slow.

Do you know?

You've seen it?

Yeah, Yuji Uemura, which— yeah, yeah, I saw it.

Yeah, like that. How, how would I get to that point? Point of turning that fast with your feet? You just like— you just keep practicing? Like, I would love to do that.

Well, that was a parody almost. He was joking. He was doing it for kind of a, you know—

yeah, just for an Instagram.

The only thing— yeah, um, but for him, what was amazing about that was just keeping that neutral. And it was all, you know, knowing when to let the absorption finish and then just being super fast on kind of, you know, you end up blending a lot of those transitions with, you know, it's just, it's, it's definitely back to that cylinder, making sure that the foot alignment, hip alignment, shoulder alignment he's just perfectly balanced that whole way.

Yeah, it was cool. It was very cool. It was very cool. Cool. Well, Steven, I really appreciate your insights, and I hope it is— yeah, encourage some people that maybe don't ski moguls much to maybe get out there and realize there's some things that— just things they're missing, like maybe in the choice of ski what they're doing with their boots, that how they're tactically approaching it that would make moguls a lot of fun. Because the, like, you know, the people that like, like most, it is, it is fun. I'd rather almost ski moguls. Powder is probably the only other thing I'd prefer, but I, I love skiing a good bump field.

Yeah. And for me, I, I want to be the first one down that, that fresh snow, uh, in the morning. But there's so much, uh, good skiing to be done late afternoon, or let's say hasn't snowed for 3 days, and then you start getting that mix of powder and mogul. And that's where I think people can really enjoy the mogul, is just increasing their, their time in the good snow, you know, not on the groomers. Be found late, late in the day, or, you know, a few days later.

Yeah, it's not as clean. Yep, yep. Excellent. Yeah, thanks so much again, and I hope people got a lot out of that.