Why Feel Matters More Than Form in Ski Racing – with Emma Carrick-Anderson

Wouldn't you like to know what former Olympian, mother of 3 children that are very close to cracking the World Cup level of ski racing, has to think about ski training and bringing up kids to get to that level? I certainly did. And in this week's Big Picture Skiing podcast episode, Emma Carrick-Anderson is exactly that person. Emma is the wife of Phil Smith, a guest I had on, on the last episode of the show, and you should listen to that one if you haven't yet because there are some ties in there philosophy on how they believe and go about training people, whether it's just regular skiers or their kids.

Today we're going to look at steep slopes. To control your speed, use skids. We use a fallen leaf.

So Emma brings a very sort of open-minded approach, just like Phil did, to her philosophy on training skiing. And it's interesting because because she reflects on her past. So, when she was younger, 4 Olympic Games and the training she kind of received back then, which was very directive and she describes as making her feel at times robotic and how that is very different and contrasted to how she trained her sons. Really interesting, those two sides of things. So, I think if you're a ski racer, if you're a mum, a dad like myself, you've got kids or you're a coach, I think it actually applies to anyone really, but just this idea of how they develop skill in their athletes, I think is really important. We also delve into equipment a little bit, footbeds. Emma is a proponent of, she likes the feeling of a flat one, no, no support. So we have a, we start off chatting there. Anyway, I'm not going to give away too much more. I think this is a great episode. I had a great time chatting with Emma. So Emma, thank you very much for coming on. The show, and I'll see you at the end. All right, well, welcome to the Big Picture Skiing podcast, Emma. Great to have you here. Now, I just learned something fascinating about you. Not only are you 4-time Olympian, you are the mother of 3 kids that are probably going to break onto the World Cup pretty darn soon. But what fascinated me was you're not a fan of supportive footbeds. Can you tell me what happened Maybe they're like, when was it in your life and what— why didn't you like them?

I love that we're kicking off this chat about, um, with footbeds. But, um, yeah, I mean, footbeds were a bit of a bane of my life. I actually, when I raced, I really liked— if I was going to have a footbed, it had to be super, super thin, super like, like flat. And, um, I actually spent quite a lot of my time racing without any footbeds. I just love that. Um, I loved being closer to the ground. I love that any movement that I made through that foot got me straight on the edge. And without that footbed, I actually felt like I was able to get on the edge quicker. I know that most, um, most servicemen or boot fitters would absolutely hate what I'm saying here, um, and it's obviously what works for each individual. But, um, you know, our guys now, they have a super thin, very hard carbon fiber footbed. So again, close to the snow, that reaction takes place straight away. But I had an absolute nightmare once. I went on to quite a thick corky footbed. Now, a lot of people think with a flat foot you need that big thick, um, bit underneath your arch.

Quick question, do you have— like, is your foot shape a flatter foot? Is it a high arch foot? What sort of—

um, I'm actually a little flatter. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so they're probably like, you need support, Emma.

Yeah, you need support. Exactly. Um, so yeah, I had this big thick cork one, and I'm telling you, I literally couldn't make one turn. It felt horrendous. So I went back to the boot fitter and, and said, this is just not working. And he said, okay, well, let's shave this down. Let's just take it down, you know, put it back through the machine. It still wasn't working for me. Now, I'm not saying that that's not going to work for others, but for me it didn't work. And I think it's just really important to, you know, to— if you're a skier that feels what's going on, then you must be in tune with that, because a lot of ski racers will go to a great boot fitter, but they might get something that's just done for them and it's not going to work. So that's a really good place to sort of kickstart this chat.

I think so, yeah. I think the point you're making there is, uh, like, and we said it just before the show, the best skiers feel. And if you're not the best skier yet, you need to start feeling. And then as you maybe start paying attention to these feelings coming, you might realize something that you add or take away helps you with that. So for you, you'd learn to feel ski. And you've been saying Alan Baxter as well, he was same, he liked that same thing. I, I'm the same, I don't like any footbed. I've been through periods of having a very supportive footbed, but I find I get better feeling, better sensitivity in all kinds of skiing bumps, everything, with a flatter one.

It's, it's so interesting, isn't it? I mean, and also just talking about, you know, I mean, the boot, the boot setup and the ski setup, but the boot setup is just vital, isn't it? I don't know about you, Tom, but when I travel, when the boys travel, I am like obsessed with— don't let you your boots go, you know. Oh yeah, take them on the plane, you got them wrapped around your neck, because if you lose your boots, wow, that's bad. I mean, losing your skis is bad, but losing your boots is just a killer. You've got to keep them. And it's even, it's even, I mean, in ski racing, you know, we work on the canting and everything as well, but it's even the, the way the, you know, the little plate that you have on the bottom. Yes, that, you know, if that then is worn down, of course that's going to change your whole setup as well. So yeah, it's, um, the boot, the boots, it's all about the boots.

Do your boys go through a pretty, you know, rigor— there's a lot of hours invested in getting theirs right.

Huge. It's absolutely massive. And actually, we just had a big, a big round trip because we had to do fitness testing in Austria. So we drove 10 hours from France to Austria, do the fitness testing for a day and a half, and then we did 7 hours around to near Turin, between Turin and Milan. That's where the Lang factory is, and, uh, the guy is brilliant. He's obviously, you know, he knows what the boys need more or less, with which, which areas to grind. We try not to do much pushing because that just obviously, you know, risks the booting out more. So it's more grinding if we can, but he's done all that work before we get there. But then when the guys are getting 2, maybe 3 sets each, that is a full day. That's a long day of sitting in the Lang factory.

That is a long day. And do they all have like different sort of setups? Obviously, you know.

Yes, yeah, yeah, very much so. So Luca likes a little bit more of an aggressive setup, um, Freddie is actually very flat, and Zach somewhere in between.

Okay, we should talk about these boys— Luca and Zach and Freddie. And sorry, I know we're interviewing you But I, but I, to be honest, I found somewhere on Facebook this, uh, Carrick Anderson boys, uh, like page. And I'm gonna say it was like 13 years ago. And I was like, oh, these look like good little ski racers. Like, I'll like that page. So I've been seeing, because it comes in my Facebook feed over the years, these boys, oh, just became, you know, champion at this level. Oh, just became champion this level. Where are these boys at now? Because they're, they're coming up to like right at the top of, of the game.

Yeah, they are. I mean, what a journey it's been. I'm, I'm incredibly proud of them, not just in their skiing and journey, but in the men they've become. They're really awesome young men. Um, but wow, yeah, they are now starting to knock on the door of kind of the big stage, as it were. There's, um, two of them now top 100 in the world, third one is just outside. And, um, yeah, from the outside it might look like it's been easy. Oh, it's not been easy. It's not been easy for any of them. For us, you know, we've worked our socks off, as anybody that gets to that level knows. Um, it takes a huge amount of commitment, but it's been spectacular as well. It's been absolutely amazing, and every, every step of the journey has, has been inspiring and quite wonderful, really. And where they are now, we know it's not easy. Um, you know, this next step is not easy. This next step, I don't think, is going to happen just like that, because especially on men's ski racing, you know, the time to bulk out physically That takes a bit of time. They're, you know, they're 18, 19 now, and, um, you're racing with the, you know, the 30-year-olds as well, the 30-plus-year-olds. Yeah, so, um, that, that takes a little bit time to develop physically, mentally as well.

Um, so the older boy, he's— what's his name?

Luca.

Luca, what was his recent, uh, results?

Yeah, so he was third in the World Junior Championships, which was like a— I mean, we knew for so long just how good Luca was, but he sometimes struggled to show it on the big, bigger stage. And I think this was like— I'm not saying it was a surprise for him, but for him to be able to do it on that stage was just brilliant. And yeah, I hope it's something that— I hope it's a springboard for him to, you know, to take it further, and I'm sure it will be. But, um, in ski racing, you know, it's, it's a, it's one of these sports where things can go right or wrong very quickly. And, um, you need the package to come together. You need to build on that confidence. You need to build the physical side, the tactical, the technical side. It all needs to be worked at. And that journey is kind of a never-ending journey. But, um, yeah, they're certainly showing some huge potential, that's for sure.

Okay, right. Well, I think we should go back a little bit because I have a 7-year-old, Archie, and he loves skiing. And he's only more recently started to really like it, I think, at that age when, you know, they can go all day and start to ski more everywhere on the mountain with you. And he's doing a little bit of racing in Australia. We have this interschools race series where sort of school level, and it's a great pathway into, into it. No, I'm intrigued. What do you think are some important things for children in that early stage to develop? Like, now you've, you've seen these kids go through— any advice for me? I'm the listener.

I'm sure, Tom, you're doing all this already, and it sounds like Archie's, you know, on a great trajectory. Sounds like he's loving it, and actually loving it is the most important thing. You know, I think the better they get— I don't know about you, um, Tom, but when ours were young, you know, maybe we did have to yank, you know, pull them out. Come on, guys, it's quite a faff, isn't it, getting all that kit ready, getting the boots on, carrying the skis? And, you know, of course, Mum and Dad were going to help them carry that kit, but it's still faffy. And once they start loving it and they start getting— they get good at it about that age, you know, 5, 6, 7, wow, I'm actually quite good at this. And then they feel that freedom. It's the freedom of, of going around the mountain and in the trees and little bits of off-piste, off the jumps. I think once they experience that, it's like, wow, this is amazing. And, um, yeah, I, I have— you just got the one at the moment, Tom?

Just the one, yes.

Okay, so imagine having 3 Archies. I mean, they were going— it was terrifying. I think I aged so much at the beginning because they literally, they would just go everywhere. And because we didn't have a rigid— like, you— we never made them follow us. We never made them follow us. We let them make their own decisions, more or less, you know, keeping them safe, of course. But we didn't want them to follow our lines. We wanted them to make their own lines because Why should they follow my line? And then that, you know, through the trees, over the jumps, through the moguls. Oh, it was fantastic. And actually, I learned to be way more playful as a skier when I was following them. Because yeah, they've got a different mindset to what we do. It's brilliant. I loved it.

And I saw a little bit of, I guess, maybe some videos Phil must have made. So there was some technical input there, sort of little, probably a little bit disguised so they didn't reject it straight away. Can you give some insight into how you brought in some technical stuff or got them playing around with different skills?

Yeah, I mean, I think Phil's already chatted through this on his amazing podcast that you did with him not very long ago, but, um, twist, push, edge, you know, we developed, um, we didn't develop, we, but we introduced to the boys skiing when they were very young was, um, these skills. We called them skills. It wasn't fixed techniques, it was skills to get you around the mountain. And I must, um, I must tell you this story, um, Tom, because I, I love it and I still often think about it. But when the boys were young, we didn't really force snowplows and things. We did a lot of skidding. So they were 2 and a half, 3 years old and we would skid around the mountain. So we would go on reds, we would go on, um, quite steep slopes, and we would just do falling leaf skills, skidding down the slope. And actually, for the first season, most of the first season of Zach skiing, and I think he must have been 2 and a half or whatever, he didn't bother turning. He didn't actually think he needed to turn. So Zach got incredibly good at just skidding down the mountain sideways. Really fast, and like doing falling leaf but really fast. And boy, we could go anywhere.

Almost like the big mountain guys.

Yeah, that's right, exactly. And, um, he was really good at it. And I would now and then I'd say, Zach, you can turn if you want. And he'd go, why? Why should I turn? I'm quite happy doing this. So he would just like skid down everything, this tiny little guy. And eventually, of course, then he went, oh I can turn and I can skid and do it the other way too. But that skidding and that precision and control of where they wanted to get to with their directed skid meant that we could ski bumps, we could very quickly ski like little steep chutes off-piste, and we could go anywhere. And they had control, and that was fantastic. So actually, you know, you've got a lot of, um, coaches or instructors maybe who are trying to teach, or parents who think that they need to be teaching their kids to carve, but actually, you know, if you teach them to skid, you can go anywhere. And carving and all that, that comes later. So for us, it was, it was the freedom, the control, and the confidence to go anywhere in the mountain. Oh, that was brilliant. That literally just made our journey go, you know, we could, we could take them anywhere. And we felt, we felt quite safe then skiing anywhere. I remember skiing couloirs with the boys, so, you know, steep off-piste routes when they were 7. Um, but we never felt worried about them because they had so much control. Yeah, you know, that, that having the control of your skid meant that you very rarely would pick up speed. You know, you were choosing the speed that you went Mm-hmm.

So you have skid, uh, what were the 3 things?

Yes, so, well, twist, push, edge. Okay, so twisting is just turning. Twisting is turning your skis and then adding the skid to control it. So descent, so controlling your speed and your direction with that skid. Turning and skidding, turning and skidding. Of course, for bumps off-piste, deep off-piste, that was brilliant. And so that's twisting. Pushing was when we were in deeper off-piste or in slush, you know, is getting that edge and pushing the ski. The snow displacement that Phil talks about a lot. Yes, pushing that snow. And then of course edge, you know, that being able to vary the edge, you know, that for a ski racer is huge as well. So you're not just stuck on one edge angle, you You need to be able to have 70 degrees, you need 10 degrees, and you need the whole shebang in between.

Yes.

So of course, when the boys were young, they were not thinking, am I skiing with a 10 or a 70-degree angle? But they were just naturally developing that. So twist, push, edge, skidding, that control of where you skid to, how long are you skidding for, is it a short skid, is it a long skid? You know, if you're on this, if you're like now, if I'm in a deep, that couloir, I might skid for 20 meters, and then I might, you know, do an airborne edge change and skid for 2 meters or 10 centimeters. I mean, my gosh, it goes on and on. It's like, it's never, it's never ending, ending, but we never taught fixed rigid techniques.

Yes. Okay. And was it quite— because you mentioned also beforehand, well, let's talk about your development. Totally different. You started skiing from— or racing when you were 6 or something.

Yeah.

Can you talk to the, the sort of rigidity and the difference in approach back then to, to this with your kids?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I had some great coaches. I had some fantastic coaches when I was young. Um, most of the time though, back then, it was more about fitting a mold fitting a template of how a coach thought the skier or the racer should look. Um, so for me, it was very much more about fixed techniques. And actually, all the way through my career, it was about techniques and fixed techniques. Um, and it probably wasn't really actually until I stopped racing that I let go of those. Because I was then moving into the off-piste environment and skiing the off-piste environment and then coaching myself, I suddenly was like, wow, I don't need those fixed techniques. And actually, they're holding me back because that fixed technique might work in one environment, but it's not going to work in the next environment. And so that ever-changing environment that you're in as a ski racer and as a normal recreational skier you need to be able to be fluid and adjust.

So can, can you give me an example then, back when you were younger, maybe, you know, 16, just before that first Olympics, of the kind of feedback maybe that you were— your brain and your body was trying to incorporate? Like, like around, like, an example of this technique? Like, can you remember some things you were drilled with?

Absolutely. You know, push into the ski, the front of your ski, but your ski boot, you know, really get into the front of the ski boot so the shovel picks up first. Um, um, it was a lot about the upper body. It was a lot about positioning of the upper body. It wasn't about developing the feel and working from the feet up, you know. Um, yeah, it was very rigid. Very—

again, like you're saying, sort of like you could imagine the coaches seeing something and whatever you didn't fit with it, they were trying to tell you to move to look that way.

Yes, a particular way. And it was also— it was— it became very robotic. And I think, you know, when you become robotic as a skier, you can't adjust quickly enough to what's happening underfoot. I mean, I was a slalom skier, so I needed to be able to react quickly to that, that lump, that hole, that rut, um, you know. And I wasn't able to quick enough because I was maybe focusing on something that was happening a bit too much up here. Yes.

And I mean, I suppose what's made me— because I watched some skiing of yours, you beautiful technique, and you can see there's discipline which you've trained in. And so then the boys, do you think they've had— because they obviously— I've watched them skiing, their upper body, I mean, it looks maybe there's some freedom in there, but it still looks very disciplined. Do you think that's just, that's just come through when you go that— when you're trying to edge that ski, pressure at a certain place, make this next gate, all the upper body stability comes into it because it's a necessary thing.

Yeah, absolutely, Tom, you've just hit that nail on the head. Yeah, I mean, I think that's it. I have so many people saying to me, oh my goodness, your boys, they have such great angulation, they have that angulation or that control with the upper body. Wow, you must have worked on that. And I'm going, No, we've never worked on that. In fact, if I said to the boys, like, guys, you've got great angulation, they'd go, what are you on about, Mum? You know, they, they probably haven't even heard that word. And if I did start coaching in that way, they'd be like, Mum, Mum, just no, just no, we're not, we're not even going to think about that. That has all been an outcome of what we, or what they've done with their skis. You know, the more they felt, the more the upper body has just kind of taken care of itself.

Yes.

Yeah, it's been such an interesting journey that way because of course my background and Phil's background going way back, of course it was about the angulation and the arm carriage and the shoulders being, you know, held level, things like that. But the boys have developed that naturally, which is so interesting, isn't it?

Yes. Yeah. And do you think there's like, uh, I mean, I, like, they— I guess there's on their side, they had— you had almost had a blank slate from, from 6 years old. And obviously we all know you learn something from an early age and sort of things come a lot more naturally. You tend to feel it out and just, you know, oh, they're sort of going that way, I'll go that way, instead of adults are like, how are they doing that? Tell me the physics and engineering behind all this. Um, I, I guess what I'm trying to say here is, do you think when you've coached older people, like, there's any middle ground you have to come to? Or you would still— like, how— if, if you now had to go out with a group of people, you know, 50, 60-year-old ladies and men who are intermediate skiers, and they want to get, you know, good, better at the skiing? Would that— would you do— yeah, give us an example of some, something, some things you do.

Yeah, I, I absolutely love that time that I was coaching with our company, um, because I did often have, you know, as you say, 50, 60, sometimes older skiers. And, um, for me, keeping that same focus of the connection with the mountain, which is, you know, the ski, the edge, the connection through to the snow, working from that point. I found it didn't always, you know, at the beginning sometimes, especially if you had somebody coming to you who was new with you and they'd been taught in a completely different way, focusing on that upper body, on that pole plant. Yeah, I'm not saying pole plant's wrong, not at all, but if they'd had that training and that coaching, then to suddenly go to that feeling and that connection with the mountain I mean, sometimes they looked at you and they were like, you know, wow. It was like you were taking away everything that they believed was correct. So sometimes we, sometimes there would be a light bulb moment straight away. And I love that. But I equally loved if that light bulb moment didn't happen straight away and you had to guide and you had to work together to get to that point. But when they did get to that point, oh, it was a you know, it was a revelation. And it was so nice to be able to guide that person to, let's work from that contact with the snow, contact with the mountain. You're going to get all the feedback from your feet, and that will give you the confidence to tackle this slope. And then they started to have, um, you know, more speed control, more feel, and then the confidence came. And that's just brilliant. And there were, there were so many moments I had when we worked with Snowworks, our own company, Oh, I love that. I love giving that person or taking them on that journey to a different way of skiing, but it opened up their skiing. It stopped being so rigid and it became freer, and it was suddenly way less about what do I look like to, wow, this is just a brilliant sport.

Yeah, I must say I'm going— I would say I'm still going through an evolution of my own coaching. No, I know that's where I want to go. This— and they call it like the— an ecological approach to skiing, you know, tasks-based, uh, instead of telling you exactly how your hands must be here. And it is, it is tricky, it is hard, uh, but there's been some real revelations for me. Is like today, there's still a guy who's skiing in, in, um, on, on the West Coast of America, long season, sent some video in, and, you know, short turns, and his pole plant looks a bit funny. And, and rather than— like, this is good evolution, I think, in my own teaching— rather than saying, you know, you need to work on this, I just said at the end of the turn, like, he now has an intention. You're trying to, to— you're trying to go kind of diagonally across. He's trying to get some deflection. Yeah, he wasn't thinking about the forwards, just get edge. So we're going to try and deflect like 3 meters. You're going to try and get more deflection than you used to. Your arm is the only thing in your whole body that just doesn't look like it's also joining this party of let's get deflection.

Yeah.

So rather than fixing that, I'm like, put your arm where you— where that pole plan is going to help you go that way, because it's currently doing, you know, figure out where it's got to be, because it's now not— it's not— it's going downhill, not deflecting. And so, yeah, but it takes— you have to break it like your habits of like, yeah, oh, your arms aren't level, oh, you're— and try to think outside the box, like how can I put them in a situation to, to figure it out.

That's exactly right. And it's also, you know, I think it's making— often you might have a skier who has a few quirky things, and it's actually deciding, do those quirky things really affect their performance, or is it just they, they might— they just look a bit quirky. And if it's just a kick case, if it looks quirky, great, get on with your quirks, keep them. But obviously if it is really affecting the skiing, okay, how are we gonna, how are we gonna work on that? And it's so interesting, it's like a puzzle, isn't it? Yeah, it's a puzzle. And I often find that, you know, you might be missing 10 pieces of the puzzle, but if you just get that one piece to fit in, boom, the whole thing kind of— I love that.

I love finding those. And that's what, you know, back to your boys And everyone, you know, anyone in the world with a good technical mind and go, oh look, rattle off 10 things that are great about their technique. But yeah, but they haven't really been taught about that. So there's something in their intention and what they've been doing that is like this one, like you said, that one piece. And yes, yeah, I'm really fascinated at trying to find those and change my coaching to that because then, then you just, you reduce 10 to 1. Yeah, coaching.

Do this. Yeah, yeah, keep practicing. Yeah. Can I just jump in, Tommy? So, you know, we over the last few years, we haven't just coached our boys, we've had others join our team or, or just join us for camps, which has been brilliant. And I, I love having athletes come to us who have maybe been taught in this more rigid— this is maybe how you should ski, and this is a template of how you should look. And I love it when I have athletes come and I can coach them exactly how I coached, or Phil and I have coached our boys, and it's like a light bulb for them. And they go, wow, so I don't need to keep my shoulders facing this way, and I don't need my arms faced, or, you know, rigidly out in front of me, and I can let go of that. And it's not that suddenly they're going to become crazy wild, but I can start focusing on what those skis are doing, and they suddenly, you know, they can, they can manage the terrain better. They can, they can be quicker from edge to edge. They, they don't get stuck in the rut. They don't get spat out of the course so much because suddenly they're able to feel and adjust to what's happening down there. And I, I can't tell you how it gives me goosebumps talking about it because I just love when somebody goes, wow, that is amazing, and it changes their skiing. It's so good.

So throughout a winter season, are you— is your majority of your time is with the boys? Like you said, a lot of your tuning, and then if you've got a training day, you're on the mountain talking with them, taking video, setting.

Yeah, so yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's very much, you know, we're full on with the boys, we're on the mountain. We kind of try to do— I try to do 4 days training, 1 day off. I like that. If we can keep to that, I think it's good, because obviously it doesn't always work out like that because conditions change, snow comes in, um, or you've got a race, you've got racing. So it does change. But in the summer, for example, I like 4 days training, 1 day off. And we train, um, for 3, 3 and a half hours in the morning. Um, I, I very much like the, the course now to be set to, you know, the level that they're at. We have to use the course to do a lot of the coaching. So, um, Tristan Glass-Davis, who coaches the American team now, he was with Dave Riding and the British team for 14 years, and he is very known for setting incredibly difficult courses. Um, when the boys were younger, we didn't set super difficult courses, but now they're getting more and more difficult, more and more challenging. So we use the course to do a lot of this, of the teaching. And I like that. The Kostelic is, um, so the Croatian, um, Janica and Ivica Kostelic, who you'll probably, well, be aware of, they were phenomenal. They won so many World Cups, and they were coached by their father. And his way of coaching was let the course do the coaching, because if you get 5 gates down and, you know, you're coming out because it's a difficult turn, well, you've got to work out how to get around that turn. And as the boys now move through the Europa Cup and maybe into World Cup, of course, the courses are not going to be easy. They're going to be challenging. And it's about working out how to ski these difficult sections of the course.

So I'm getting back to thinking, okay, cool, great. I like— you keep getting inspired by thinking of your boys training for this high level that I'm thinking about Archie. And, and maybe if we, you know, help wrap up this conversation soon, key takeaways for parents wanting their kids to be great skiers. Yeah, would you be able to distill it, like, like maybe to, like, if they're on a holiday for a week or, or even a day, like, what would be your, your bits of advice?

Okay, well, the big one is 3 letters: fun. That is the first one, fun. Keep it fun. That's so important. Um, lots of, lots of free skiing in an environment that kids love, you know. Don't just stay to the piste. If you will see kids always wanting to move off into the little tracks at the side, through the trees, into the bumps. I mean, if there's like a ridge at the side of the piste, you know, from where the piece basher has moved the snow, and there's a little jump. I mean, our boys did that, oh, so long for weeks and weeks. We just spend it going jumping from over this little ridge, and I'm sure Archie loves that as well. Yes, you know, they love all that stuff. Let them play, let them enjoy the environment. Um, try not to be too rigid with your feedback, try not to close it down, uh, let them experiment. I think those things are— if I could do it again, that's what I would do. And I, I mean, I loved it, Phil loved it, the boys loved it, and it was such an amazing journey to be on. So yes, fun, get in the right environment, don't be too rigid. Those are the things that I would suggest.

That's probably— and we should just change that. We don't— we could just cross out kids. To just people.

People. Yes. But I think unfortunately as adults, I don't know whether it's school or what it is that kind of batters that out of us, but as we get older, we stop experimenting, don't we? We stop experimenting and we stop, we start thinking, well, what's right and what's wrong? And actually, you know, if you're in control, as in you know, you feel you've got confidence because you're in control and you can go where you want as an adult, then great. Keep it, keep enjoying it, keep enjoying that journey, and don't close it down and don't think too much about how you should look. If it feels right, then it probably is right.

Yeah, you know, uh, having that conversation with Phil the other week and, and now same with you, I was, I was thinking about I don't think it's— we need— people need to throw out— like, we're not saying don't do drills or anything. No, no, no, because they can be fun. I know Archie even found— he just started trying to do javelin turns because he'd seen me doing them. I didn't tell him to go do it, but I started seeing him trying to do it, and he had— he was enjoying just the balance challenge of it because on the cat track it was boring. There weren't jumps on the side. We were on our way somewhere. And so I think for adults too you can, you can still, you know, you might be 60, you're not looking to hit the jumps, but you can— no, one, one, you know, lift one leg up or whatever it is.

And that's it, challenge yourself.

Yeah, the fun thing. And so as long as you have the intention, like, I'm trying to spend as much time as I can the whole turn with this ski lifted, or whatever it is. But yeah, but yeah, find the fun and challenge in that.

Um, yeah, absolutely. I mean, drills, Tom, I love drills. I think there's a place for drills, and then you go and play the game, you know. So, gosh, yeah, I've got a stack full of drills. And actually, I used to often, when I was with our company and out with our clients, I'd say, guys, you know, we're going to just do an hour here of some drills, and then we're going to take it back into the environment, and let's see if what we've developed here, you know, is relevant over there, or maybe it can come in into it that what we're doing over there. So, you know, it's about— it's like, I like the idea of skiing is like having a toolbox, you know, have as many tools in your box, and then when you're out there, you know, you're not going to use just your hammer or just your nail or just the spanner. I don't know, you need them all. Yeah, so the bigger the toolbox, the better skier you're going to be. So for me, having the drills, it wasn't necessarily about Um, just, you know, I like— I like to develop more range of movement. So what drills can I have to develop more range of movement or speed of movement? Things like that.

Yeah. And back to your feeling thing, I find I like it because I'm like, oh, I know this person doesn't have— they don't have this feeling yet. They don't realize, like, they can put some more weight on their inside ski and that gives them this. We're just going to go play with that. And then they suddenly go, oh, I just felt this feeling. Is that something Yeah, go. And I think that's what drills are great at. They kind of focus you in on like, do you realize this little piece, and then take that piece and, and put it into the, into the bigger, bigger picture.

Absolutely. And, and as you say, you know, every skier is individual, and some, you know, some don't have much ski feeling, and that's okay. But it's how we're gonna get them maybe just to feel that little bit more and be a little bit more in tune of that feeling of the edge on the snow and what they're feeling through their foot. And it's just, I think being a good coach or a good instructor is all about just treating each individual as an individual. You know, everybody's so different, and that's what's so great about the job as well. You know, I know with our boys, if I start harping on about, you know, technique or giving them too many drills, they are just like their mom. No, Mom, Nope, nope, nope. So I don't even go there. But I know with others, okay, well, maybe I have to go a little bit more there. And that's what makes it so interesting. It's like, it's, you know, the variety in life is what keeps it interesting. And the variety in being a coach in skiing is, is what keeps it interesting.

Yes. So what are you doing in summer now with the boys? Have they got training? Are they heading south? Are they glacier?

Yeah, so we, the boys are on a bit of a break at the moment. They're off traveling. So they're enjoying some different sides of, um, of the world at the moment. But when they— and they are physical training, of course— but when they come back, we head to Norway at the beginning of June. So we're up in Norway for 3 weeks. And for, for me and for Phil, it's very important to get into different types of, um, snow, you know. So World Cup, of course, you've got a lot of ice, but, you know, we know that there's a lot of salted snow as well. So in the spring, you know, spring is about salted snow, the winter is more about icy conditions. You've got the aggressive snow in America. Um, so when we go to Norway, it's about salted snow. We use a lot of salt to make the snow firmer, but it feels very different to skiing on an icy snow.

Is that right?

Yeah. Oh yeah. So it's all about the variety of the surface, the different surfaces.

Could you quickly— I, I've skied a little bit of salted snow with Red Bull when we had to do it, but how would you describe it?

Oh, okay. So yeah, this is interesting. So When we're on the glaciers in Norway, um, sometimes we don't have to use the salt, but most of the time we do. The glaciers there are not very high, so it's been pieced, obviously, but it might be a little bit slushy. So we come with our salt, and which is literally very fine salt that you would put on the road, for example. So it's the same salt that they put on the road in the winter But what it does is it takes away the moisture from the top surface and binds it so it becomes really firm. So for us, then we can train at 9 in the morning or 2 in the afternoon, it doesn't matter. The surface then doesn't change, it stays firm, and we can get 10 or even 15 runs before you really get a mark on the snow. It's really good.

It's different to like ice. Does it have more of a glazy kind of—

yes. It— so it's not— it's— you don't get the same slippiness to it. It's not icy where the ski, you know, will just go out. It just means it's a firm surface.

Okay, so would it be grippy ice? Would you almost say it's like—

yeah, yeah, grippy ice.

Yeah, they're quite fun to ski on.

Yeah, really fun to ski on. Yeah, you still need really sharp edges, but it doesn't— it's not as slippy. It's much grippier. That's exactly right. And then when we go, um, we do training in, um, some some of the indoor slopes, which are watered slopes, and that is just sheet ice. But what is good in there is, of course, you haven't got the ambience of the mountain and the environment and the views, but you get loads of rotation. You can get 15 runs in an hour, pretty much. So you get a lot of repetition. Of course, that's only slalom. It's not long enough for GS, but that's great as well. And, and then we go to the Glacier Sas Fe, which is, um, you know, you're up at 4,000 meters. Sometimes we train at 5 in the morning, which you get the sunrise, is beautiful, absolutely gorgeous. But it's, again, it's that variety. It's a variety that you get, which is just so special.

And also fascinating that, like, that's a must given if, yeah, throughout a season of racing you're going to need to Yeah, like you said, what am I going to feel a change when I ski the salted stuff? What have I got to change when I'm on the bulletproof ice? Because you have to— it's not—

you have to— it's not the same. And it's not necessarily your technique that changes, but again, it's that feeling. It's that feeling, feeling the ice, feeling the ski react on the ice, feeling the ski react on the softer snow, feeling it on the aggressive snow. You know, it's so— it's— you've got to be— if you want to make it to the top, you have to be good at all of it.

Yeah, you have to have experience, time on that stuff, or you'll just be like, oh, whoa, I didn't expect it to, to do that. I heard that was a big thing in, uh, was it Korea?

Uh, yeah, it was.

Massive. Yeah, people just like, whoa, whoa, the snow is so aggressive. The best skiers weren't trained enough on it. And they just— yeah.

And actually, Tom, if I can just— I know we've chatted for a long time, but this is a really important point. You know, when we went to— when I went to Georgia with Freddie and Zach for the Youth Olympics this year, when I went with Zach to the World Youth Olympics in Korea last year, the snow, just like in Beijing, um, at the Olympics where they struggled a lot, the snow changed almost every 2 or 3 meters. So sometimes it would be grippy, and then it would be suddenly icy, and it would grip again. And I think that some of the, some of the racers who weren't so in tune with that, being able to feel that change quickly, they struggled more. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not easy, but if you are a skier that, or a racer that has been focusing more on position rather than feeling then you might struggle a little bit more with that.

Yeah, that's so— and I think so, I always like, like, taking these things and going, okay, yeah, how could that help, you know, say me or someone else who's not trying to be a better racer but just a better skier? And, um, and I'm thinking like the easy thing if you say an instructor training for a level is you go, yes, this run is piste, there's no patches of ice, I'm gonna practice on that over and over again. And then you get to the day of an exam or a different spot and your friends there, you're like, I can't ski this very well, sorry. So you give up. Instead, you need to be—

because all the—

yeah, and all the information is there, isn't it? Like, if once you start doing it enough, you can start seeing before you've hit it, the snow is going to go grippy, too slippy, to 5 meters down the hill, grippy, too slippy. But, but it's— but if you don't do it enough your eyes won't pick it up. You won't have, oh, that's why I slipped there. Oh, that feeling in 0.1 of a second, you can, you can adapt to it.

That's— yeah, absolutely. And I wish that I had had more of that when I was racing. You know, when I look back, when I look back, that makes me just a little sad. But, you know, that's okay, move on. And, um, watching our boys develop in that way is, is brilliant.

Yeah, oh, fantastic. Well, yeah, I think that's an awesome place to maybe wrap up because that's got me thinking. And, you know, funnily, it makes me like, this season I'm in Australia, we get so such varied conditions. I'm just gonna really embrace the very varied snow and, and yeah, just try and get lots of reps so I can— I know what to, to feel and predict, you know, when I, when I see the change.

That's it. And, you know, and it, and it's also not expecting snow to feel a certain way, you know, because you get onto it, like, feel it, feel it straight away. Because we can, obviously we use our eyesight, don't we? But you can't always see that it's going to change. So you have to, the more you're in that moment and living in that, you know, that split second, feel it, feel it, react, feel it and react, feel it and react.

Do you know Manny Osborne parody?

Yes, yes, yeah.

So I interviewed him once, and, and I was actually on the east coast of Canada doing a camp with him. And he— we're all like, uh, the coaches took video of all the other coaches skiing down their first run, and we had to talk about like what we're working on technically and everything. And Manny gets up and he goes, so on this run, I wasn't thinking about any of that because my first run of the day every day is feeling the snow. Because I don't know if it's changed. I don't know what it's like if I've never skied here before. I feel the snow and then I know what I can do with it.

Yeah, brilliant. I love that. That's exactly— I mean, that's it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That first one, you have no idea what to expect, so don't expect anything.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Emma, thank you so much for your time. And Is there any way people can maybe keep an eye on what's going on with the boys? Like, is it— where's the best place we can go to keep updated and see them, you know, progress?

And yeah, absolutely. I mean, we have— we update on Team Carrick-Smith all the time. Carrick-Smith with a little hyphen. So we do— we keep people updated.

And is that a website or a Facebook?

No, it's, um, it's on Facebook and on Instagram.

Okay, Facebook. Okay, so Team—

I know, Team and then Carrick and then hyphen Smith.

Smith. Okay, perfect. Yeah. Okay, well, people should follow that. Yeah, I mean, my wife's British, so I've, I've been drawn— I like seeing the, the Brits do well, and I like an underdog. I love that there's a strong slalom team at the moment, and so to know that there's more these boys coming through Yeah, like, come on.

Yeah, our— the British team is strong at the moment. The boys, as you say, Dave, Billy, and Laurie, are doing so well. And, um, but then the next generation coming through is— is— there's not just our boys. Gosh, there's a lot of exciting talent coming through.

It's really fantastic.

Great.

Awesome. All right, well, check out the Carrick Anderson-Smith boys. Thank you very much, uh, again, Emma, and Yeah, enjoy your summer break. Thank you, Norway. And yeah, good luck for the future.

Thanks for the chat, loved it.