Why Your Ski Boots Feel Wrong: 3 Angles That Matter

Setting up your ski boots with the right angles can really make a difference to how balanced you feel, how much energy you've got, and how your turns feel when you're out on snow. However, there's not like a one-size-fits-all or rules that really go across everything. So for example, the upper cuff angle, the forward lean angle, just because the best skier in the world maybe has like 17 degrees doesn't mean you should have that same angle. So the goal of today's podcast was to give you some more guidelines, so I've got expert Phil from SkiTalk here, he's done tons of ski reviews, he's a boot fitter himself, I've tinkered with boots a lot within my career, so we've sat down to try and give you some help, some advice on, you know, whether for you, if you have bigger calves, what you should do with your forward lean. If you have not much range in your ankle joint, should you have more ramp angle or less ramp angle? These are the kind of things we wanted to give advice around, some, some handrails to help you make some decisions and work with your boot fitter to get you the best fitting, most fun, most comfortable, best performing ski boots yet. So join Phil and I in this podcast as we discuss boot angles. Let's get started. So kicking off with— will we start with the binding first, go from the base up? For this angles discussion?

There's a lot of— first of all, thanks for having me back again. This is a ton of fun. Um, I get emails, I wouldn't say weekly, but maybe 2 or 3 times a month saying that this was one of the best shows we had last year being on your show, and I appreciate you having me back again. Um, again, a lot of people undervalue the interface with the binding, and the binding has basically 2 jobs: hold you in and release you. And again, forget the— but we're going to talk about the variable, which is the performance of it. And that's getting into the stance angle of it. But most of the bindings now are around probably 4 to 5 millimeters of delta. Right. And that means the heel is 4 to 5 millimeters higher than that of the toe. Now, where that gets into some craziness is as a boot gets smaller and larger, that amount changes. So While the, the, the 5, 5 millimeter difference is the same to the toe, the, the, the angle changes because of the size of the boot. And for guys, we're going to feel that more with a smaller men's boot, a 24, 25. On the women's side, when they get into a 21 and 22, that changes that dramatically in that stance. So, and, and specifically with women having that shorter leg And sometimes they do have a more athletic calf, which, which again has a variable that comes into this stance positioning.

So we'll— okay. So most of the bindings out there now are about 4 millimeters higher in the heel than the toe. And then that gives us a slightly sloping, forward sloping angle when we put our foot in the binding. Correct. But what you're saying is that, that 4mm difference, the angle it creates varies quite differently between, say, a big tall 6'4 guy in a—

A longer boot.

Boot, because that 4mm over like, yeah, that, that big long distance.

Exactly.

Is not much of a slope compared to, say, a lady in a 22.5. It's, it's going to feel steeper. So Exactly. Okay, so there's that difference. But you, you told me now some brands try and get rid of that factor. So can you go through which bindings now that, that, that delta stays the same regardless of the length of your boot, and maybe some ones where it's not changing?

Um, I think the one that has really addressed it the best is Tyrolia. And in their system bindings that, um, I think it's called the True Balance Plate. And basically the toe and the heel, the way that the rails are set up, it, it, they're angled. So as that binding comes in and out, the delta stays the same.

Hmm.

So, um, that they've been very progressive in that, in that sense with their system bindings. And again, we noticed that and Going back before, and what's really helped them in some of this process was going, quite frankly, was GripWalk. And this is again getting back to Tyrolia when the SuperShapes and some even the Joy series first came out. They were using a flat, a regular ISO 5355 toe piece, a flat toe piece, which is fairly low, and they were up to 7 millimeters of Delta in that stance, and when you brought that really in, I mean that it was like the women were on high heels pushing them forward. They've they've they've corrected that, eliminated and made it much better. But we've had situations where people say, "Well, I was on that ski. I didn't like it." Well, we're at a different time now. We're seeing a lot of these variables come out now again. Most of these manufacturers are working in that four to five millimeters of delta, so we have a level. much greater level of consistency in all the brands. It's not as important as it used to be.

Okay. Okay. But I guess if I'm, if we're talking to some of the people who are like on the East Coast and they were like a racier type ski where it is not a system binding, it's a plate and you're screwing it in, those people may need to consider, say on their recreational ski, they've liked how something felt, maybe it is adjustable. If they're going to a race ski, they might need to put a lifter under the heel if they've got a bigger boot to get a similar kind of delta or any advice there?

No, because the race bindings are going to be in that 4 to 5 millimeter range also. So you might be looking at a little bit of a heel lift or a little bit of a gas pedal depending on the binding, but it tends not to be as much of a problem. the differences across the board. Now, again, most of it is about the same, other than this is where Marker is a little bit different with their system bindings. That actually is a negative delta on their system bindings, that the heel is higher than the toe.

Oh no, sorry, the toe is higher than the heel.

I'm sorry, yeah, the toe is higher than the heel. It's a negative delta.

Okay.

And we're seeing that on many Marker system bindings that you might find on a K2. You'll find it on a, on a Volkl ski and Blizzard, whoever's been in Nordica, they use a marker. And where it used to be 2-3 millimeters difference, now it's more in that 1-2 millimeter range as far as that difference. Um, so, and I, and I cover this a lot when we're demoing and we're talking about demo bindings, um, that demo bindings react different than a retail version. That, that ski really wasn't that much of a difference because you tended to demo with the retail version of the binding. Yeah. But that one is a little bit gas pedals on the toe. So that's the only thing that's really off, um, in that bit of a sidebar of the way that they're setting out. And my gut feeling, we'll see a change in that in the next year, couple of years, because I've been really focal about it.

Okay. So if we've got this difference, and in some bindings like the Marker, it's actually negative. So the toe is a little bit higher. Generally though, other bindings, the heel is higher to create this angle.

Yes.

Would you say, based on your experience yourself, talking with other testers, varying abilities, maybe body types, are there any hints here that you'd be able to go, hey, do you know what, these kind of people really like the negative binding feel of the Marker, these people really like, or these people hate it? Are there any clues there to help? Like, someone might have been obsessed, like, oh, I only, I never ski Marker, I hate Marker. But they might be missing out because the negative delta is helpful. So yeah, any clues there?

2 big clues. One, somebody that has a turkey drumstick of a leg, it's got a huge calf that's going to push them forward. That person might like that negative delta and/or what's referred to as a gas pedal in the boot and that to get them a little more skeletally stacked in neutral. Got it. So, they might prefer that. And on the flip side, somebody like myself that has a really thin leg, that I don't have a lot of thigh to push me forward, I like a lot of forward lean. I like that more positive delta. I like a 17-degree forward lean in the boot because I don't have a calf pushing me forward.

To push you forward. Okay. So bigger calves, possibly it could be helpful with a marker negative delta binding because it balances you out, stops you Yeah. Overflexing, and then skinnier calves, you, you can— you might not find that as helpful. You, um, would you say also too then, because some— I guess it comes down to their boot choice too. If you're not in a— if, if calves aside, say you're an average calf, if you've got a really forward-leaning boot, um, and you find you're just stuck there all the time, then you might enjoy that negative change, and vice versa. If you've got a really upright boot, a change you could make without— if you love your boots— is actually choosing a binding with more ramp.

Yeah. And again, this is a cart horse situation, which comes first. Um, again, and I do a lot of boot fitting. If I see somebody that has a lot of calf, um, I'll, I'll start immediately with an upright boot, as upright as I can, or even some of the new hybrid, uh, Front entry— uh, rear entry boots like the, um, like the, uh, Nordica, uh,

Yes.

HF or the new, new Atomic Nexus, that the front of the boot is static and the back accommodates that calf, where the front of the boot will keep— help keep in that skeletally stacked athletic position and the back accommodates it. But if I'm dealing with a boot that has a strong spine, I might gas pedal that, that boot, that, that person. I've got one guy in our test team, Andy Mink. I mean, he's got huge calves and he can fold over a 150 like it's nothing. I need to put him in— I might gas pedal his boot 3, 4 millimeters.

Okay.

Um, and then he still likes a, um, boot that has a negative delta just because he can fold over anything.

Okay, okay. We should probably then— we're gonna say we're gonna give a bit of warning here. We might be jumping around the place here because it's not simple. It's not like a plug and play situation. But I guess if we come back to being long-term skiers,

Yeah.

we know, or like what people are looking for is, I guess, one, being able to access a stance that's quite athletic. So, so, so when you're getting in your boot and your binding, you want to be able to flex your ankle, move up and down, and feel like, for me anyway, you can give your opinion, but for me, I feel like I want to be able to equally access like As much ball of foot pressure as I want, but also be able to apply some pressure on the heel so I can work the full length of the ski. So I'm basing everything around that. So if I'm not feeling much access to the ball of foot, or if I can't really bend down much, I'm going to need to address angles throughout this whole system of binding and, and boots. Anything you wanted to add there so people like, okay, My goal here with tinkering with everything is this feeling. Any—

The 3 words that you said are the most important is flex your ankles. And flexing your ankles, because for years, we've always heard from instructors, bend your knees, bend your knees. I mean, you could bend your knees and still be sitting in the back seat if you can't flex your ankles. If you flex your ankles, it's going to keep you in that skeletally stacked position. A lot like you compressing a spring, flexing, uh, bending your knees can pop that spring out and you're out of control. So I think flexing your ankles is key. And what we're gonna be talking about— there's no rules to this, but there's a lot of guidelines. And those guidelines are going to be good for 80% of it. And again, there's always going to be some variables, and it's a matter of balancing what's right and what's correct. There's nothing that is perfectly correct in this situation, but there's a lot of things that are right. And even as they say from MasterFit, Do no harm. And that's the whole thing in this is we want to set everybody up for success in this process, in this stance. And this is where we get into— we talked about Delta and Ramp and the binding and how they all integrate, but how that boot flexes and how they can stay skeletally stacked over that boot, giving the ability of adjusting fore and aft because we're definitely in that 3D situation with variable snow and such. And keeping in that, that that athletic positioning. So, I think that's the key. And, I think we're on the right page. And, we could talk to 10 different people about this as far as fitters and Brett Amsbury who you've had on and a couple others, and we're going to agree on a lot of the same things. Then, we might use different verbiage for it, but it's still the same results in this.

Yep. Yeah. Okay. So, let's go to— we've talked about Probably being aware of the, the delta in your bindings.

Right.

And, and it might not be you on a day trying a ski going, I don't like this. Understand, like, just take that factor into consideration. And we talked about calf size, um, as well. So, so, so we've, we've discussed that. Moving up into the ramp angle inside the boot now. How do people even know what ramp angle they've got? Do most boots now say what it is?

Most— we're seeing actually, this is where these angles are changing a lot from brands. And anywhere from a 7-degree ramp inside of a boot with something like the UPZ down to 0 on some boots or 1 degree like the Kästle boot. Which which is a lot different.

Is it where? Kesley one.

Yeah, it's zero one. It's really low.

Okay.

And again, somebody might correct me on this, but it's not four. It's it's below. It's below. The fourth seems to be about the benchmark of a boot.

And can you bring that boot up so we just so people have got a visual? This is what we're talking about with ramp angle. Bring it a little higher.

And yep. And this here again. I'll just take this out here. This is a 12-degree forward lean and a 4-degree ramp inside of the boot. Okay. Now, this gives us a good positioning as far as a place to start. And, you've got your little toy there as far as the foot. And, here's a question for you. Now, 2 things. If you've got somebody that has a very rigid Ankle. What happens when they try to flex that boot?

Yeah. Well, what they have to do, I guess, if this doesn't flex much, if your shin bone doesn't move, to get it forward, the only thing you can do is lift your heel up.

Exactly, exactly. And that's where people get a lot of pressure underneath the metatarsals. They start burning a lot. They get a lot of shin pressure on that. So now what we can do with that is we can take something like a heel lift here. And put that in here. And what that is going to do, that is going to open up the ankle. The, the leg shaft stays the same angle, but exactly— and what that does now, that opens up that ankle, allowing it to flex a little bit more.

Yes.

Yeah. Okay.

Okay.

So I mean, that's an option. What can happen now, we also have to be careful, it pushes us up into the top of the liner, so where a lot of our blood flow is. So there's things that we need to address Exactly there, because that's where all of our plumbing is on top of our foot. So, I mean, we take a look at that also. And again, so that's something to take a look at.

Okay, so I'm going to summarize that. So if you're listening and you are a stiff-ankled person, so you know that wall test, you put your foot against the wall or against— and you see, can— how far can your knee go past your toes? And say you're like, you barely can get past your toes.

Yeah.

That's a stiff ankle, then what can help you is actually a bit more ramp angle. And if the boot doesn't have it, uh, Phil put in a, a heel wedge there, heel lift, to then open up the ankle joint without changing the angle of the shin bone. Um, and, and I remember— I'll wait for you to come back here.

Yep. So Then, okay, so exactly. And then on the flip side, if somebody is very hypermobile in that ankle—

And then they can put their knee way past their toe.

Exactly.

Yes.

Then what we might do is lower that Zepa inside there. If you see here, now this side here is lower, and what that does, that closes that ankle a little bit and that takes some of that away.

Yep. Exactly. I remember doing that with a pair of boots once and it being instantly better because I've got quite flexible ankles. I can, I can move my knee pretty far. And I remember, yeah, having a pair of boots that had obviously too much ramp angle, and I ground the heel down and instantly I just felt like I was in the center of the ski. Like, in my mind, or the feeling I have when I know my, my setup is right is in the middle of a turn, I kind of feel like I'm standing in the middle of the tip and the tail when it bends like a trampoline. Like I'm right in the middle of it. It's like, oh, I can push more on the tip or more on the tail with the same amount of ease.

Yes.

Yeah. So, okay, great.

Yeah. I mean, again, this is working in the boot and there's other variables coming in as far as the tibial length, as far as the height of the person. I mean, there's a lot of variables, but these are the first things that we take a look at as a boot fitter. and not just a boot salesperson. Is this for a foreign athlete? And getting them neutral in the boot first.

Yep.

And then, then we work from there because, I mean, this is a variable that they did— if they got multiple pairs of skis, they need to be able to take from ski to ski to ski. I mean, this is, this is their constant. And this is one of the reasons that we say we invest— we, we date our skis and we marry our boots. And if we're going on a trip somewhere, this is why our boots are our carry-on. That we can't replicate this with a pair of rental boots or even going into a shop and having them rebuild the boot there. It's going to take days for a shop to build a boot for most people, for a high-level skier that has these needs.

Yeah, that's right. So then to put a wrap on that one, if there are some things going on, like, sorry, if you are modifying with a heel lift because you've got a tight ankle, the plumbing of our foot— because all the blood and nerves runs over the top here— we're going to be also lifting this top of our foot up closer. Yeah, to those buckles. And so you might need some more work to, to, to create some space there. And then vice versa.

And that footbed too. Yeah, we haven't talked about a footbed.

Yeah, vice versa. If we're dropping the heel down because like the that boot board, we're grinding a little bit, you might— you're going to be changing the contact around where the instep and the ankle is, even sometimes the flex there in small amounts, maybe not much of a deal. But if you're taking like a good 2-3 mil out or something, you're really going to change the feel of that boot.

Oh, absolutely. And we talk about a boot fitting, a millimeter's a mile. So with this and making these nuanced changes, you make them in small increments. And I mean, this conversation that we're having, I really hope the amount of viewers that we get on this, that there might be a couple people out there that have an aha moment. It's like, yeah, that's the problem I'm having. This explains it. Again, that's our— that's the goal of videos like this, is if we can help a handful of people, we've done our job.

That's right. Hey, so we're moving up now, higher in the boot, uh, around the cuff, still talking about these fore-aft angles. Uh, so, so up around here, What do we want to— what are people looking for there? How do you know you've got the right forward lean? Um, or whether— because, because in that spot you can add material or things to the front.

Yeah.

And to the back. I guess that's some boots you can— you've got the adjustability to change the— those angles. I guess, where, where do you think you'd say— how do people know they're in the right zone with their, their forward lean?

For me, again, there's a lot of numbers getting thrown around. Talk to different people about that. I'm more of a touchy-feely fitter, is I want to see how they feel in that and what, what's right for them. Again, it's a balance of what's right and correct. We could talk about correct all day long. Let's talk about what's right for that skier and make them comfortable and get them out there. And I've got no problem with a lot of my people Is that in my fit process is they might come back a couple of times and we do tweaks here and there. And I think it's great. And it's one of the things, quite frankly, I miss on working on the mountain where I can have somebody go out, send them out for a couple of runs, they come back, send them out for a couple of runs and go back again. That was always a great option to do. I'm close to the mountain now, but I'll go out ski with them too and see how they feel, see if I notice anything. Now, I'm not an instructor and I, and I don't pretend to be one. But I can also see how they stand in the boot and if they're comfortable or not. And we might work with little things out there. But again, first and foremost, first part of performance is comfort. And if you can't get in that boot and that boot's not comfortable for you, you're not going to be out there performing the best. So, I mean, that's the first stage. And that's where if the cuff area where we've got to flare the back of that cuff to accommodate the calf, if we've got to cut down the saddles on the sides again to accommodate that calf, If we've got to add a spoiler to the back, like I have to do with mine to get them in that proper position, I'll take a look at that too. I mean, there's a lot of things that we'll take a look at in this process.

So the big— so let's go with the— if you're not the average person that just fits the boot and they're like, this is great, thanks a lot, Phil, I'll see you in a couple of years' time. Yeah, you've got the big calf person. Red flags that is not like just keep skiing, it'll get better. A red flag would be like pressure against the back of your, your calf.

Thigh burn.

Thigh burn.

Yes. Yeah, because they're, they're skeletons holding— their muscles are holding them up because their leg is pushed so far forward. They're not skeletally stacked. That's the first thing I'll take a look at. I said, and I look at them, I said, I bet you got your thighs kill you. Yeah. I can't ski past lunchtime.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, you could be Schwarzenegger, nothing— you're, you're, you're— the equipment's working against you. And a skinny leg person, that ski is coming out from underneath them. They have trouble getting forward, that they're not in that position. They can be too upright. And I run into that also. And I ran into that problem with the, um, the negative delta binding when the Mantra M6 came out. Tyrolia— Marker was still using the original demo binding, which was a negative delta, and I just could not get over that ski. I moved the binding up, I moved the binding back, I tried a 177, tried a 184, and I was just pulling my hair out until I looked at the binding and realized there was a difference. I went, I went head-to-head with the developers at Marker, the engineers in this process. There is a difference in this, that the demo binding is different than the retail version. And And they— long story short, well, maybe too late now, but eventually, 2 years down the road, they made a running change on it and made the demo binding emulate the retail binding.

Yeah.

But yeah, there was a difference in the process.

Yeah. Okay. I was going to say that there's an Australian ski cross guy that I've met, and he's been trying to figure out his boots. And he showed some images from side on. You know, in a ski cross race, often they'll start out the gate and there'll be kind of like a little Hump where they have to suck up and compress to get some speed. Accelerate, yeah. He's in that dip where they're all looking for extension. So, like a straighter leg, right, to push down. And his image had him still squatted a bit, even though he was pushing, and he's got huge legs and glutes. And like the top guy, he's got a picture of him, straighter leg. Another like 3rd in the world, straighter leg. And he's got gigantic calf muscles. So he's the same, that candidate that you're talking about. He's got too much forward lean probably because he's choking his legs and his legs can only move like the, the spaces in the front where you open up the buckles, right? So, so he's only gonna move forward when to fit that calf in. So yeah, hopefully he's going to try some expansion. So if you're listening, if you're big calves. As well as the, the negative delta, you can also look at flaring out with, with some, uh, boot— a boot fitter will heat it up, they'll cut it down perhaps. But if you've got a big leg, you probably only want to flare out so you keep the strength right in the boot. Um, so then, and then if you have the skinny legs like, like Phil's mentioning, that's where— do you often put a spoiler in your boot?

I put the biggest spoiler in I can.

Okay.

In almost, in almost every boot. And again, this is where I like, I like Atomic, for example, has the ability of going 13, 15, 17 degrees in their boots. I, I just put it right to 17.

17. And a spoiler.

And a lot of times in the spoiler. But yeah, I mean, I, I've got no, I've got no calf here.

Yeah. Okay.

Hey ladies, I'm taken. But

yeah. Nice. Cool. So listeners, If you have that, the, the more slender calf, the thing you're going to be feeling— what would you say? So when do you just feel you're always on the tail of the ski feel? Do you feel like there's no nothing helping you forward? What's your felt sense?

Um, as far as getting that weight and pressuring the tip, I really have to work hard, and I feel like I'm forward, uh, uh, leaning forward to pressure that tip. And then it's like, again, it starts It's swinging your arms. If I'm all the way here, it's difficult to turn that way. I got everything back again. And the same thing with coming forward. And you talked about feeling that balance over the ski when you're neutral on it, that you've got the ability of going forward and backwards a little bit and still be neutral. You can get back to neutral right away. For me to get neutral from one turn to the next, I always feel like I'm a little bit behind on the ski.

Yeah. Do you know, I just have this memory. I remember being at Deer Valley, And it was early season, my first season there, and I was out with one of the trainers and we stopped and took one of our ski poles and put it on the ground. And everyone was to stand with their ski on the ski pole like it was a pivot point, a fulcrum.

Yeah.

And he said, stand on it. And where is the point on your boot where you can go tip down, tail down? Because either the tip was in the air or the tail was down. So, can you do this? where is it under that boot that you can go back, forward, back, forward the same? And so it could be an interesting one for people to try.

I might play with that here even in my shop, put it in to see where I am on it and try some different skis.

Now if you can't already tell, I am a ski nerd. I love skiing, everything about it, and I enjoy trying to get better at my favorite sport. If you're the kind of skier that's sort of frustrated, stuck at a plateau, or this season you really want to make some improvements, I've built Big Picture Skiing to help skiers just like you. So I put on there tutorials that you won't find on YouTube, on really deep dives on, on how to ski moguls better, how to carve better, how to tackle steeper terrain, everything right down to even how you plant your pole and set up your ski boots. So there's a massive library behind Big Picture Skiing that is designed to help you break that plateau and improve this season. I've got a QR code up here that you can scan to check out. There's a 7-day free trial, so you can check it out risk-free. It's maybe not for everybody, but it's there for people that really want to improve. Thanks for watching this podcast. Let's get back into it. Like, that's the— that's leverage at play right there. If you, if you've got the right spot, you'll be able to access the, the foot in the back. Um, where, where are we up to now? I think we've kind of covered from bindings up to The calf area, the cuff area. So do you know—

I think, I think we've created more questions than answers.

Yeah.

Okay. Which is good. It gets people thinking about it.

Yep. And people experiment. I know Brent's a big advocate of it. He's like, hey, if you've never tried a spoiler, take some spoilers out, put 'em in. If you've never taken them out, take them out. Like you can put things in to play with, like inside the boot, a heel lift and, and whatever to experiment and see what it does. If you'll never know unless you try it.

Yeah.

So let's move on and finish up this convo because you wanted to also mention some, some changes in bindings maybe.

Yep. And again, that's where we started with this. I mean, quickly we could talk about Salomon and Look. Really not many changes moving forward for this year with those 2 brands. Strive pretty much carries over. Look pretty much carries over with Pivots and SPXs. The one— the news from Look is going to be coming still a couple of years down the road with the new race binding. Pictures have been showing up about that. I know a few little things about it, not much more than what everybody else knows out there. So there's really nothing for me to share as far as inside information there. Uh, Tor and the team is pretty keeping things pretty close to the vest on that. And there's— in talking to them, there's maybe, uh, a dozen and a half, 2 dozen pairs out there on the World Cup right now that a racer might have one pair that they're moving from ski to ski to ski. So that's the only thing going on really with those 2 brands. The new— the big news actually is coming from Marker and Tyrolia for this year. Starting off with Marker, and that is the new— and actually, I would say it's not completely new because we had last year the Griffin X M-Works and also the Jester M-Works bindings. And what the goal is with these bindings is to get lower on the deck of the ski. So, I mean, this binding here in the toe is only 9 millimeters high, which is extremely low, where most of the bindings are anywhere from 17 up to 30-some millimeters high.

So what are people going to like? Why are they going lower?

It's to get a better connection to the ski. And this, and this goes back way back. And again, you've seen pictures of Stenmark and Maier when they were racing. And if you looked at some of their skis, they They didn't even have AFDs on their skis. They were flat on the deck of the ski. Now, we can't do that now racing because of the booting out. We're skiing a lot more laterally. But those guys weren't skiing as lateral, but they were getting better feel for the ski. And that's the goal of these new bindings, is to get a better feel of the ski. And we're going to see this on skis that are in that 80, low 80s up to 100+ millimeters wide, is getting that lower feel on the ski, which really is— Good. And it, it really does enhance the performance.

You enjoy that feeling?

I do. I really do. This is something I've been an advocate for a while on it, specifically when it came to testing skis and demo bindings, is most of the demo bindings were up around 35 millimeters on the foot because they had this track system and everything. And that just dramatically changed the, the way that that ski skied. And I would rather be in One of the things we did also, and I'll— when we get to Tyrolia, I'll talk about this more. But with this new binding, really gives a better feel for the ski now. And so we're going to see this next year coming up. We're probably going to see a Squire version of it because we seem to be going in this direction of this binding. Now, I know you've got a lot of technical skiers that watch your show. Marker also came out with a Comp 16 RD, which is their race binding with the 20 and the 30 with the 16 spring in it. Okay. So you don't have to be a gorilla to ski that binding and still be able to release it. So that's a new binding that's going to be out there for somebody who's looking for that true race binding with a lighter spring. So that for those guys that are on it, they might want that ski, they want that flat, you might put it on a system, but that is out there as a binding.

Okay, nice.

So consider that. So what was that you asked me? What would I do to change this binding?

No, no, I was gonna say, I'm just— I remembered the, the— when I was skiing on Volkl, I had a pair of the Kendos that had— it was just one after the No, they had the dragon on it. Remember that silver with the dragon kind of?

Yeah, yeah, there's someone— yeah, about 2010 or so.

That's about right. And I had— I could only access a Comp race binding to put on it, and that definitely felt— would have been a bit— it had no plate, it was low. Yeah. And I remember skiing that in Revelstoke and having like the best time through the trees and I'm thinking back now going, oh, part of that was probably this lower-to-the-deck sensation on that ski that I liked.

Yeah. And we— and again, I found a newfound respect for that binding. I mean, it went away for a while. Marker brought it back. But take a look at old pictures of McConkey. He's on that binding. Blake is on that binding. Mosley is on that binding. So those guys all skied that binding. And for those reasons is the feel that it that it gave the ski.

Yeah. Okay. Hey, um, but what about Tirolia? Have we got any?

Okay. Um, what— again, I, I kind of tossed myself a softball. Things that I would change on, on this binding. And this is something that, um, I've been trying to get Marker to do because we see this as a slight problem. People look at the— have had, uh, Jesters and Griffins and Squires over the years, say Boy, this binding is tough to get into. Okay. Part of it is because of the single pivot, single axis of the heel. Part of it is this is one of the tightest couplings of bindings out there as far as the amount of forward pressure that's required in it. But in design, if you look at this heel treadle, see how this is angled upwards?

Yep.

Especially for women. And now that we've got GripWalk soles and the first word in GripWalk is grip, I mean, that heel, Catches on that, makes it a little more difficult to get into, where a lot of other brands, I mean, that's straight there.

Yeah, I see what you mean. Leverage again.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Salomon here is actually pointed downwards in that heel, in that treadle there. There's no reason that that can't be pointed downward to make it a little bit Easier to get into. So that's, that's the one thing I would change.

Changes then, Phil. Yep.

Yeah, I'm working on that. It's going to be tough because this is brand new, so I don't think it's happening soon. And the other thing is there's been a question, a little bit of question on the durability of this heel track that I think they're working on. That when one of the first X Games, they had the binding in the X Games, the guy just blew the heels off. But I think they're working on that. So I think we're going to see A little bit better there. But that lower stack height— now Tyrolia last— about 2 years ago came out with the Protector binding, which is the only bilateral release heel binding that releases laterally out of the heel in either directions, which will help mitigate, not eliminate, ACL and MCL injuries, um, because the majority of them are that backwards phantom, phantom foot fall, and this heel can release laterally both ways out of it.

Yeah.

Okay. So, and it's been really, really good. For this year, they came out with the Protector X in a couple of different versions. I've got the Attack version here. Now, the— I'm sorry, Protector Plus, not X. And the heel is a little more compact in the heel, but it's also a lot easier to get into than the first heel. Less effort, which actually puts less strain on the heel. It kept the bilateral release. But the big difference is they dropped the stand height of the binding from 34 millimeters down to 21 millimeters. Again, working on, on that. And I'll tell you, I'm amazed that they were able to do that with the amount of hardware that's in this heel as far as height-wise and what's required in that.

Okay.

So they did a super job with that. And this is something that, again, I talk a lot about stack height. When we demo skis, I want to demo with a retail binding as much as I can over a demo binding. One, because there can be a little disconnect, but two is that stack height. And if I go with a retail version of a binding, I've— and I'm in a 295mm shell. Most bindings have 25mm, 20mm of travel, so I can go from a 295 up to a 315 as far as range. I'll mount it as a 305, um, because if I'm on a 180 or 178 or 182, whatever, I'm not going to have somebody in a 28.5 in that, at least not one of my testers on that ski. I'm not gonna have somebody in a 24.5. So I have a little bit of range. Now, I would rather be a centimeter lower on the ski height-wise than a centimeter fore and aft.

Yeah. Okay.

So I want to be— that gives me a much better feel. I can adjust for a centimeter, 4.5. And for those people that say they can feel a half centimeter, no, you can't.

Yeah,

you're feeling— you're feeling 1,000 things before you're feeling a half centimeter.

Yeah. Interesting. So I like that you've weighed up those, those 2 things, what you'd take over.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'd rather be lower on that. And that's what they're able to do with this new protector is make it lower. And to the point where I got away from using demo bindings and using retail versions of bindings for my test skis because I think I can get a much better connection and a feel for the ski because I'm not testing bindings, I'm testing the ski. Yeah. So I want to take that variable out of a binding feeling different. So I think that was key. And this new Attack is really good. Now they're also doing it in a race and a technical version. With the FreeFlex on it.

Can I say, that's, that's good because last time you could only get quite a wide protector, is that right? Correct. Yeah, so if you're on a 69, 67 underfoot ski, it's hanging like you couldn't really put it on or it'd just be hanging over.

Well, it really— well, the FreeFlex makes the difference in that also, of that race ski and that connection of the toe and the heel. The 85mm brake, quite frankly, was up high enough you would hit the boot before you hit the brake if you were on a plate. But this one here is a narrower brake design on it, and the race version is available. And I said technical versions in a 14 and a 16, which will have the full race toe.

Nice.

So it does it for those masters racers. that, that are concerned about it. I mean, your World Cup, you know, we're not going to see this on a World Cup. Those guys would rather chew off their leg than have the ski come off in a real-world situation. But, but for the mortal skier that, that is dealing actually with insurance deductibles, it is a consideration to take a look at of a binding. It adds a level of safety. I mean, hopefully you'll never need it.

Yeah.

Now, in this process, and again, if anybody's read my Uh, conversations on this from the start when this Protector came out. I started playing with the lateral setting. I mean, there's 7 millimeters of lateral elasticity either direction. The first generation, I was able to ski that binding at a 4 or 5 and not pre-release. This new one here, whatever the mechanism inside, it's a little bit different. I have to ski it closer to my, my regular setting.

Okay.

Uh, which I normally ski a binding about an 8 or so. So I, I ski it That the lateral setting now where this new version here, I was coming out, it came out 2 or 3 times when I didn't think it should have. And it wasn't technically a pre-release, it was more an inactive release that it wasn't designed— it was, I was asking to do something it wasn't designed to do.

But that's a good, that's a good improvement then. So yeah, it's just, just because what, just to help clarify there, when you do the, the DIN on the front toe piece up, Yeah. Say at 8, then you do the heel up at 8. On this Protector binding, you have a 3rd place, which is the lateral heel release.

Yeah, that's right. That's right, right in here.

Exactly. And in the past, if— and I'll put a link because I think this other podcast we did last year is really worthwhile reviewing or watching if you've not seen it. But, um, yeah, you were mentioning that you, you'd played around with having that a little lower.

Yes.

Yeah. But now it's closer. It's pretty much you're just going 8, 8, 8 all around, which is what they'd recommend.

And this new one here actually is also nice that this is also coming in a 16. So for those bigger skiers that might have had an injury in the past that they don't want it again, it is definitely consideration to consider that binding at the higher performance level as a 14 and a 16.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to putting that, that race one on a pair of carving skis. I've got coming for, for this season. That's, um, that's cool.

I'll be interested to get, get your feedback on it because obviously safety-wise is what this was inherently designed, but that 7 millimeters of elasticity actually will give you a little bit of absorption.

Yeah.

So it could help keep that ski a little bit quieter on the snow. So I'd be interested in that when you get your feeling, if you're putting it on maybe a ski that you're very familiar with,

Yes.

Transferring over and similar conditions and seeing how that feels.

Yeah, that's a real— that was my favorite learning point last time from you, was understanding float, uh, elasticity. Elasticity. Yes, elasticity. What, what that was there for. Because I was asking you about this binding that I have, the Tyrolia, that has a diagonal. You said that's not a safety thing, Tom, like not at all. It's, it's a, it's an elasticity thing. And you equate that, you equated that to almost mountain bike sort of suspension or a little bit softer suspension. Yeah.

And that really doesn't come into play until the body is about to release anyway. And then it comes, comes out in a V position. So in a forward, that's really more for a forward twisting fall. This is more for a rearward twisting fall.

Yeah. So would you say this new protector has more elasticity than that Diagonal.

Oh yeah, that has no elasticity, but it has the same amount of elasticity as the previous, the first generation of protectors, which is still on the market also.

Okay.

Now another clarification, and I'm running into this now, is if people are familiar with Tyroler bindings and their brakes, okay, they got 85mm, 95mm, 105, 115, and those have always been good for plus or minus 5 millimeters for a ski size. So that 95 millimeter worked well on a 100 millimeter wide ski. I thought the same thing with this new R brake, which is designed specifically for the Protector. 95 now is the max size.

Okay.

To the point where— so just keep that in mind. If you're used to Tyrolia brakes, got to go down 5 millimeters. And really, this binding, the brake should be a 90 millimeter brake. Instead of a 95, to go from 85 to 95, because the max is out at 95. So just keep that in the back of your mind when you're shopping for the bindings. Oh, I got a 98mm wide ski, the 95mm wide brake will be fine. No, you need the next size up in brake.

Okay, okay, great tip. Bill, tons of great information, uh, again, and at a good time of the year. People are starting—

It is, yeah.

set up their boots, maybe look at purchasing some new skis, new bindings. So as a summary, we discussed some pointers to help with understanding your, your fore-aft angles in a boot. We didn't even discuss the lateral side of things, which is another area we could come back to. And, um, but yeah, hopefully that helps some people out there. We tried to call out Your leg shape, maybe your flexibility type, some feelings, which I think is really important. Like, having this, you know, numbers there, all well and good, but we feel things. So thank you for sharing your, uh, your insights there, what you like to aim for feel-wise. I think people are going to need to go back and check this one out again.

Yeah, I mean, you're accessible, I'm accessible. Anybody has questions, we're easily reachable, and we'd love to talking about this stuff till your eyes glaze over. Yeah, I mean, we could be here 2, 3 hours.

Comments, because it then inspires, you know, what we missed out on that can be discussed, uh, for next time. But in the meantime, they can always go to skitalk.com. Good, good reviews on skis, equipment, boots, discussions with other ski nerds. Um, yeah, and look forward to seeing more of your reviews and content coming out, out this season, Phil.

I mean, we're starting already. I mean, we're getting scheduled to go to Vail in December to look at '27-'28 gear. So already, I mean, it's just looking so far forward. I mean, I've been on some already for some brands, um, just because they were in development stage. But yeah, it's— we're in a fun time. And I mean, you're— I'm not sure how your winter was in North America. It was a tough winter for us last year.

It was pretty— yeah, we had it. New Zealand had a They just only finished up skiing now. There's still tons of snow. We had a really tough one. We finished early in Australia. It was a bit of a shame, but yep, bring on next year.

So, I mean, the industry relies on skiers having amnesia from a bad year and optimism for a good year.

It's happened again. I'm already kind of beginning to think about— Exactly, yeah. It's, it's a good problem to have this amnesia.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, but we're excited about getting back on snow this year. Tricia had her back surgery last year, so she's gonna have a full year. I lost one of my testers to a shoulder injury last year. He missed the whole year. He's excited to get back on snow. So I— we're looking forward to a great, great year. Traffic's been up. You guys have been doing a great job. So it's been a lot of fun.

Excellent. Phil, until next time, thanks very much.

Yep, anytime I'm available. And I want that Gates A950R.

Sounds good.

Okay.