E18: 10 Insights into Going from Good to Great in Sales and Leadership with Terry Smagh | SVP APAC Infor Software, BlackLine, Qlik

Welcome to the Switchgear Show. This is your host, Priy Saka, and today I'm joined by Terry Swank. Terry, thank you for joining this call.

An absolute opportunity. Thank you for having me, Priy.

All right, let me introduce Terry. So Terry is the SVP and General Manager for Infor. He has been a pioneer in the APAC region, starting and scaling Qlik and then BlackLine over the last 10 years. Most importantly, he believes in building a culture of success from the ground up. And today we're going to learn all about it. So Terry, tell me, you've had a terrific career in Asia. How did you get into the industry? And tell me a little bit about your background story getting into the line of work that you do.

Thanks, Priya. I'm humbled at the introduction. But when it comes to about how did we get here, sometimes it's not by design, sometimes it's not by choice. And I really don't know which one it really is in my perspective itself. I'll give you a bit of a fun fact. I started my career, as everybody would do, as a programmer. And those were the days where COBOL programming, for those who know COBOL programming, they were still well aware of it. And that's exactly what I was doing. And I had the typical perspective of when your mom and dad say, go to university back in the '80s or '90s, and they go, go study computer engineering. And they go, all right. Yeah. And let's do that. And till today, if you actually ask my mother, what do you do? Or what do I do rather? She would tell people, I think my son does something with computers. He fixes computers. And I've left it as it is, right? It is one of those things. But look, the last 20-odd years of career journey has been extremely enlightening. At the same way, it has been also very giving back, right? In terms of what it is. I started my career as a solution consultant, as a programmer. Rose through the ranks in regards to working with people, building relationships with partners, the channels and alliances. And started working with customers very much more closely in the whole enterprise segment of things. And before you know it, you had one leadership position to the next and to another. And here am I, right? Leading Info in Asia Pacific and Japan. Extremely humbled to do that. But this wouldn't have been possible without great mentors that I had along the way. People who gave me opportunities, especially the ones that did not put a glass ceiling on my head, above my head rather. But more importantly, with the team or the people that surrounded me and rallied with me to get me the success together. And I think that's really important. Look, it's been a fantastic journey, right? Being local native Singaporean, I lived in Australia for over 10 years, which is nice. But I speak 5 local languages, which helps in a diverse culture like Asia. But like they say, you can never— this is just a melting pot of creativity in Asia. There's so much for us to learn and give back. And it's been really good. It's just one of those things that keep on going and going. Every day has been a learning phase for me until today. And that's the reason why I'm speaking with you today. So I hope to learn something and hopefully give back something to your audience.

I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will.

Yeah.

Look, I know of some of the significant builds that you've had with companies, just really establishing the footprint and then setting up the whole GTM motions for these companies. So I know for a fact that we're in for a treat with some of the insights and maybe some of the lessons that I've learned. So I think at a high level, what does a culture of success mean to you? What are some of the ingredients if I asked you for a recipe?

Great question. And maybe let me sidestep this before I answer that directly. All of us want to be good at what we do, right? We want to be good at our jobs. We really want to excel. We want to give it our best. And I always tell people when someone says, I'll do my best. And my response to that, your best is all I ask for. Give it your best. But how good do we really want to be? Do we want to be quite good? Do we want to be good? Do we want to be very good? Or do we want to be the best in our field? I've said it a couple of times to my team. I said the chasm between good and great is actually very small. But the leap for one person to take the leap is always the most challenging thing. You see it right in front of you. It's about getting out there. And I akin this to maybe a fitness goal, right? Between a fitness goal has 2 spectrums to it, motivation and then discipline. And the motivation is the one that comes first, whereby you get up one morning and you go, you know what, I don't like how I look, regardless whether you want to be healthy for health reasons or you want to be healthy for fitness reasons. And you start hitting the gym or you start going on a dietary plan or whatever that rocks your boat. That motivation gets you going. But what gets you sticking to it is discipline, doing the same thing With clockwork precision, day in, day out, whether you go for the run in the morning or you go for a spin class in the evening, but doing that one thing, and that's discipline. Motivation gets you there, discipline gets you going. Yeah. And I think that's exactly where it is. And with where we are from a culture of success, it's about obviously getting the right talent. Talent helps. Talent definitely helps, but it won't take you as far as ambition.

Yeah.

And I think that's really important to understand because end of the day, we want to be good, but there are sacrifices along the way that makes you great. I had a bit of an aha moment and I'll share with you a personal anecdote. It just happened to me the last weekend. I've been on the road as a priest for a very long time and I got back and I've got an 11-year-old at home. And he said to me on Sunday, and he goes, hey, do you mind I skip this class that we're going to go to? And I was sending him, I was on the way, I was in the car sending him to his class, his Brazilian jiu-jitsu class. And I go, No, son, you should go for it and you should do this. And he goes, well, Dad, maybe I shouldn't. And then he paused and he kept quiet and I was driving and I said, what is it? Tell me. And he really kept quiet. He said, no, it's nothing. And then when we stopped finally, I said, why don't you tell me? He said, I don't know how to tell you this. I said, in whichever way you think you can. He goes, it's that little time that I have with you because you keep traveling so much that I just want to spend with you. It doesn't matter if we are just walking down the street. Or you're holding my hand, or we're having an ice cream. And that really got me because when you talk about bringing talent, when you talk about having a culture of success, it's spending that time. How do you quantify time? It's the quality of time. And that has been— it's clearly been hitting in my head, right? It's not the amount of time that you do. So I think the sacrifices to be great, there are a lot of it that goes along. There are a lot of people that sacrifice a lot for their career. For whatever reasons it is. And sometimes it is hard to get where it is. Right? So I think people need to understand the balance of what the culture of success, some ingredients in there. One of it all is actually, to many people, being nice in order to be liked is very important. I must— there is merit in that. Don't get me wrong. I think you've got to be empathetic. You've got to be respectful. You've got to be personable. Absolutely. But you must not confuse from being good with being liked. Yeah. As long as you take away the gray, as long as you be very clear and definitive in regards to where you want to go and how you're going to go in that journey, and people understand that you communicate clearly, I think that's just going to be a very fair point.

Yeah.

Wow.

Thank you for sharing that story. I think that all of us as parents can relate to that because the little people in the world, obviously, and I think it's amazing that He was able to express that to you. That's amazing. That's amazing. I wanted to touch upon— you talked about the difference between good and great. There's only that much. And the way one of my early mentors taught me, which I want to share back with you, is he said, good salespeople do daily What great salespeople do hourly, right? He says, so the difference between good salespeople and great salespeople is that great salespeople manage themselves and the outcomes that they want to achieve by the hour, whereas good people do it by the day. He said, so you get to choose whether your day is going to be Good, or it's going to be great based on how you manage your hour. And that ended up with me actually having a sheet with hour by hour making notes on the outcomes that I was achieving in terms of my outreach earlier in my career as a sales rep with a tech company. So thank you. That just brought some really good memories back.

No, and you're spot on. I think that's just such a classic example of goodness to greatness, right? And you're right. Thanks for sharing, by the way. I really like that because that brings down to one thing. When you said that, it strikes me on one thing itself, right? It's about ownership and it's about discipline. To my point about motivation and discipline about doing one thing, right? Because what good people do in a few days, great people do it in hours because it's about ownership. I want to do it. I want to do it and I'll get it down. I don't want to procrastinate and I want to get as far as possible. So, look, thanks for sharing. That's one for the book for sure. Thanks for that. I'm going to pen it down.

All right. Now, you've talked about situational awareness and how important it is, especially in the diverse markets that you lead teams and the diverse people and the situations that you come across, because you have a very vast geo and you have got a large team. Tell me a little bit more around actually building a culture of situational leadership, not only for yourself, but within your leaders as well.

Great question. I would— I speak about situational awareness from a couple of proxy approaches, right? And if you think about it, one, let's talk about the fact that we all want to be proud of the company we work for. Yeah? There needs to be a sense of association, right? Situational awareness is all about the fact of where I am now. If I were to literally take and define situational awareness, it's about knowing my surroundings. Yeah. So let's define that for a minute. So situational awareness, clearly in terms of where I am today, what's my surroundings, who my audience is, who am I presenting to, what am I presenting, the sensitivities to the room. As you can hear, the typical one-on-one to a sales team is that when you walk into a meeting room, look through the rooms, look at where your clients are going to be sitting, make sure that you scan the room when someone's speaking or not, look at the body language. And there's so many things within situational awareness, right? Literal, the literal translation of that. Yeah. Now, if you break it apart, it's also about looking at the nuances that come along with situational awareness. When you are in a conference, for example, and there's a lot of things happening in and around you, there's a lot of buzzing, there's a lot of chatter. Think about who's who there. Observe people, observe the speakers, observe the people on your table, what they're doing. And this gives you a good perspective of what it is. Now, don't mix situational awareness with judging someone. You're not judging someone. You're just being more aware of your situation. You're being more aware of what's being brought to you. Coming back to the company perspective, I always tell my guys, it's the company that we work for, we got to be proud, we got to wear it on our sleeve. And that's me, Pri. I'm one of those guys that wake up every morning saying that, kabang, at 5 AM, I'm going to office right now. I'm going to make this a fantastic day, right? We work for companies to do a couple of things. One, enhance our own reputation, right? Because it makes us look good, it makes us feel good, and it most probably gives us access to the best people. And that's the reason why we work for these organizations. We work for these organizations because we want to have association. And situational awareness brings about association. People that you know, your— what's your degrees of success, where you are, who you want to be with. And as we grow up over the years, we always hear mom and dad say, mix in the right company, talk to the right people, and expand your horizons. And there's only one way you do that is by networking. In the common terminology in our world today, Is networking. Yeah. Now, but a lot of, but the majority of us want to work with companies with glamorous reputations, right? And this is where I think the rubber meets the road because glamorous based on what? Based on everybody wants to talk about them or everybody is talking about them. Glamorous is also based on perception. And perception is based on, again, coming back in terms of what my awareness is in regards to what I feel Or I think about that organization. But not everybody is fortunate enough to be working for those glamorous organizations, if at all they want to. Yeah? Or it's the current flavor of the month. Today we talk about AI and every AI company is hot out there. Yeah?

Yeah.

And those were the days where AI company on Redstone is still in its infancy. Let's not talk about it. It is this new technology. It's going to go away. It's a fad, blah, blah, blah. But today, no, it's default. I want to work for the best AI company out there. So it's flavor of the month or flavor of the year, depending on how you look at it right now. But in the event you are in an organization, you start by firstly being very grateful because you chose to be there or you were selected to be there. And then you got to start talking it up. So that's for situation. Talk about your environment. Talk about how you can actually get people doing it. Begin thinking and behaving like a winner. Because when you start thinking and behaving like a winner every day in, day out, It's when you start changing a few things. It doesn't matter which organization you are, but if you go out there and you present to your client in the best possible way and you give it your 100%, yeah, that's going to differentiate you from the chaff and the wheat. That's exactly what it's going to do because all of us are fighting for that wallet share. All of us are fighting for the same amount of time, assuming we are selling the same solution. But today, technology all sits in one pot. The difference between an individual going there with one that feels like a winner, believes a winner, good prep, fantastic situational awareness, knows what he's talking about, done their research, right? And another one who's coming and say, "Oh, by the way, I work for the best company. You got to listen to me." It doesn't work that way anymore. I have seen it so many times where individuals from very good companies come up there and they just choose not even to talk about their companies because they think. You should know my company is number one. Everybody knows my company. That's not how it starts. Imagine an individual coming to you and sitting and speaking with you and explaining to you about who the company is. What's my vision? What's my mission? What are my values? Right? What are we based on? Aligning those values with your organization. You're empowering someone to have a conversation with you. And that's actually more important. Of course, then you go into the solution stack and everything else, but— It's all about that. And I think that's where once, once you start thinking as a winner and you halt the negative thinking, you start bringing people along your journey.

Yeah.

And I'm not saying that there are not going to be challenges, right? Don't get me wrong. I've walked the streets with a bag. And it's hard when you work for companies that people can't pronounce their names. And they go, what do you do? Really? Is that— and you spend the first 3, 5, 7 minutes talking about the company, telling them who you are before you even get to their needs and challenges.

Yeah.

That's a different story altogether. So I think a lot of us need to understand about situational awareness really comes about understanding what we are going to do differently and how we're going to get there.

Yeah. That's really good. You talked about people who work with big-name or glamorous companies, and they have a name which really has done most of the job for them. So you really just don't need to mess it up for the deal to happen. As against, I know a lot of people who in what I would call tier 2 or legacy vendors or vendors where it's not guaranteed. Whereas at a market leader, you could get away with a 1 out of a 3x pipeline at a tier 2 or a tier 3, you need a 5x pipeline. But I've seen some very good, determined, gritty, Intentional sellers who know they cannot take anything for granted. Their preparation has to be a 10 out of 10. Their rapport with the client has to be a 10 out of 10. Their discovery in that conversation has to— because if you are not better at every single step, the person with the bigger brand name is going to likely walk away with that business. So I think what you've said here is that I think People who are very aware of their situation and are able to assess are likely to be far more successful in that. And really, that feeding into a level of personal excellence, which you described, I think that people who have a level of personal excellence are going to end up winning every single day. Tell me a little bit more about—

And then that's a And that's a good point. So just as a segue there, that's a really good point because don't always expect top management to lead the way. We are all leaders in our own domain. Yeah. Because top leaders in any perspective, they have, maybe sometimes they're too busy running the company if they have the day job, but decide how we as individuals are going to make the company great. Right. And I didn't say the job, I'm talking about the company. To your point about the individual that's making a fundamental difference. And If we take the ownership and accountability that we are part of an organization, we are the fabric that makes it great, then we decide how much are we going to make a difference in that company. And that's a big— so you asked me a question about my team, and I've had the absolute pleasure and honor and very fortunate for the last 15, maybe up to 18 years of a team that has followed me around from China All the way down to India, to Australia, and they followed me in across functions and domains. And that's what I've seen with these guys, and that I've grown with them in different areas. Because what they are doing is that they are deciding for themselves on how they are going to make a difference for the company that they are working for, right? I always feel this, right? Companies' reputations, they're not built overnight. They take time to build. But really, it's about one or two key people that anchor it down, about the brand that you walk on the street, right? Who you are. And my, my, I strive and I aim to be that person, right? To be one of them. I always tell my guys, be that brand. If someone says info, be associated with info. I'm going to call Terry up or info, I'm going to call ABC up. That's exactly what you want to be. You want to be that brand, that face for your customers, for your partners, because you really embody the whole perspective of doing great things. And it's, I tell you, it's contagious. When you start doing things and you start making a difference in your life, it's extremely contagious. Sorry, I just thought that your point was great. I just wanted to add that in.

No, I completely agree with you. In fact, one of the mentors that I've had who really impressed upon me 4 levels of leadership, which is you have the first level, which is self-leadership. You have to lead yourself well first, because otherwise nobody's going to follow you. Secondly is the Peer leadership, wherein within the context of the team, not a formal title, but just you are someone that your peers look at. Let's start rep upwards. And then thirdly, you have team leadership, which is a formal leadership, right, where you are in a management role. And then finally, you have group-level leadership, where you are among your managing managers, and you become the kind of person who started at that self-leadership first, because you could manage and lead yourself well first, because you have an ethic of personal excellence, that everything else thereafter becomes easy. A lot of people end up in significant leadership roles, but if they have not mastered a level of personal excellence, I've seen it spectacularly fall. We've all seen people where it has spectacularly fallen apart the higher they've gone. Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, I want to ask you about— you work, you've worked for some dynamic companies. Building across is a very diverse, broad market with direct motions in some cases, channel motions in other cases. You've got a very wide remit. Tell me a little bit more about agility and what are your views on how you run that across the region and how it is potentially essential in building a culture of success.

Great. When we hear about agile business, or we hear, you know, we hear Agile 2.0 and everything else, we think about pivoting quickly. We think about moving from one place to another, or being flexible in terms of definition. Agility is about being flexible. But how do you be flexible when you set a vision to grow towards it? Because If you set a vision and people talk about 3-year plans and 2-year plans and 5-year plans, and they go, all right, this is my vision. But, so I think agility cannot be mixed with the fact of making tweaks along the way to get to your end destination. So you can be strategic in your thinking, but tactical in your execution. Yeah. And that's extremely important because this is where we think. So we still, we're not moving the goalposts, but along the way, we might be taking a different route to get there. We might be taking a longer route because we found a few things that are not in our favor. We might be taking a shorter route because we said, you know what, this actually might work. You know what, we thought about it maybe a year ago or a week ago, that doesn't hold water anymore. So agility is also about mindset, right? Some people don't like change because, as we know, change is uncomfortable. Change makes people a bit nervy. They go, oh, hang on a minute, that's not what you said yesterday. Well, clearly, Don't flip and flop, yeah? Because if you make a decision, you got to stick by the decision. But how you execute the decision can be tweaked, yeah? But not changed. The Asia-Pacific is such a— I tell you, it is a fantastic learning bed and full of melting ideas and pots and variety of people. You see everybody wanting to come here, right? And you talk about ASEAN, what you're talking about, 10 countries in ASEAN alone, right? And then you talk about Australia and New Zealand and Pacific, and then you got Japan, you got South Korea. It just goes on. on and on, cultures, languages, nuances of doing business. But there's one thing which sometimes gets to me, right? When someone says, oh, the business is done differently over here. Then I kind of think about it. All right, I'm still selling software, right? Or, you don't understand the business. Now that has got some merit to it. Don't get me wrong, right? That's got some strong merit to it because cultural differences are extremely valid.

Yeah.

I don't think we should ever think for a second that what we can do in North America can be done in other parts of the world or in Europe, right? Because there are cultural differences everywhere. And I akin APAC similarly to Europe because there's so much of diverse cultures out there. But coming back to agility, it's about how we pivot using the frame go-to-market, having a variety of execution models and trying to fit those models in that market. Because you don't want to reinvent the wheel. You're not going to have maybe 20 different go-to-markets for the entire APAC because you're going to say, hang on a minute, oh, that's repetitive, that's expensive. I don't have the bandwidth, I don't have the people, I don't have the resources, right? So you want to try to see what a go-to-market at an execution level looks like and how can I take it at the ground level. That's important. I'll give you an analogy of how I think agility can come to play. I've worked in many smaller dynamic startups where I feel that I'm a captain of a speedboat. And we all know about speedboats, yeah? In speedboats, you have a very small crew of people. They know what they're doing. The boat's fairly small. It's very quick. And when you're setting course, and if you see a storm coming your way, or you need to change course, and you go, bang! And you change direction, pretty much everybody gets the same message, yeah? You just go out there. Now, imagine the same analogy and I'm a captain of an oil tanker. Yeah? The oil tanker is large, it's big, and I stand corrected, but from what I understand, for an oil tanker to change course, from the moment it understands that it needs to change course, it takes about an average of 30 minutes.

Hmm.

For the captain to give his directions, for it to go down all the way to the engine room and make a full change of course. Now, are we saying then the agility in a speedboat is better than agility in an oil tanker? Yes, spot on, based on the outcome that you see. But then again, it's about making sure that everybody understands how agile we need to be and how quickly and efficiently that we need to move. And that's extremely important in terms of how the teams are moving forward. In my diverse teams, I've got people in mainland China, I've got people in South Korea, I've got people in Thailand, and they're all diverse. They're all very different. They all have their language barriers in some cases. English is not the default. But they all understand the fact that if we need to move, we need to move concurrently. We need to move in harmony. We need to understand why we are moving. The worst thing about agility is when people don't understand why they are doing it. Okay. An agile business fails when people say, hang on a minute. Resistance. And there's nothing wrong with resistance, again, if it's being questioned the right way. Are we doing it correctly? Should we do it? Do we have the right people to support it? I like where agility has come into the Asia market because you've got people to think very quickly on their feet. We want to move fast. Everybody talks about move fast. Everybody talks about efficiency and productivity and, you know, all the nice buzzwords that come out.

Yeah.

They move in terms of where things are. Today, we are looking at agile mindset. Yeah? You read enough books out there that tell you that you've got to be agile mindset, you've got to keep your mind fresh, you've got to be on your toes all the time. And you go, really? If I'm going to do all of that, there's only 24 hours in a day. When am I going to get time to actually rest my brain and recover and recharge and whatnot? So, I feel with the teams that I've built across the region over the years have had a A variety of different levels of agility that they've been able to bring forward. Yeah. They've been able to come with their ideas, which is great. And I constantly want to learn from other people. They've been able to come about with their experiences. And that's so valuable because the tested knowledge in each individual bringing their experiences is just priceless. Yeah, absolutely priceless. And then you want to take their experiences, you want to massage that with your goals, company's vision, and how do we then go and execute? skewed towards that. How do we be agile and hotbed? The main thing is really taking that agility and cascading that through your organization. Going to your teams, your working teams, your extended teams, your external teams, like your partners, and making them understand that this is where you're going. So a common vision or frame of thought. Being agile is extremely important, but it's one of those things. Yeah.

No, that sounds great. A couple of things I really liked, you talked about People understanding the why, because if they don't understand why they're doing something, then they will not move forward with clarity. And you talked about harmony in execution. That makes absolute sense because you want people who are being able to work with the big picture strategy, but the local level tactics. And I think as long as the big picture is very clear to them, you are likely to get far more What can I say? Intentional activity rather than chaos. Because sometimes, like you said, people just do what they want and call it agility or innovation, and it's actually chaos. One more thing I'll say there is that I really like the example of the speedboat versus the oil tanker that you mentioned, because I have, for the best part of my career, whether it's a leader or it's an individual rep who has reached out to me, or I've reached out to them and have had a career conversation, I said, where are you most comfortable?

Yeah.

Are you most comfortable on a speedboat or are you comfortable on a large ship? And the better you understand and know yourself, or even a mid-sized yacht, the more likely I'm able to get you the ticket to get onto one of those, right? Because there's nothing worse than not knowing who you are and where you can make a difference. And I'll just finish with this thought that you said right in the beginning, is that people can get carried away with the idea of a glamorous name, but I can't tell you on a weekly basis how many people I speak to who find themselves on the oil tanker but are yearning for a speedboat. And then there are those on the speedboat wanting the stability, the optionality. And I often say everything isn't as hot as it looks or sounds because there's a reality of getting alignment with the company, the solution set, The territory, the manager you work for, and your personal values. And if you don't have that, you're going to struggle to succeed in any one of these companies. Yeah.

Last time— And I think to the point, right, you just struggle. And just one statement there. If you get stuck, and we do get stuck sometimes, draw with a different pen. You're allowed to fail. If you've got good leaders that allow you to fail, and there's no such thing as— sometimes you just got to change the way you think and it might change the way you really act. Yeah? You don't need to draw with the same pen all the time. And it's funny when I say this, because when we look for talent, we always look for the experiences. And you're in the space of talent management. And when someone comes to you and I'm going to go and say, give me a guy that has this experience, bang. But then again, I still want that person to come in with— and what I call is a 70-30 rule. Yeah, I want someone with the experience, maybe 70%, because we want him to, he or she to come in and deliver on hopefully day one. But I also want them to evolve. I also want them to learn. And that's the 30%, because I always believe that you constantly look for the next jump in your career. Yeah. And but when you are in that particular role or that job or that company, you have to learn new things. You got to unlearn, relearn, and learn. That's basically it. And that's a 30% perspective of you coming in with 70% knowledge, you learn 30% new things, that 30% becomes part of the 70%. You go to the next job and it's a cycle and it's a cycle and it's a cycle. And because it doesn't change what you know 20 years ago, because that's the foundation of building a house, right? And sometimes when I ask people, what's the most important thing when you're building a house? They tell me the roof. I'm like, okay, how do you build a roof without the foundation?

Yeah.

They go, oh, I didn't think about that. I thought the foundation is a given. It's not a given. It's about how you get things there. So I would say if you get stuck, just draw with a different pen. And then have those conversations with your manager.

I like that. That's very good advice. I usually get asked about, should I stay or should I go? And I say that there are 4 stages of development within a job. And stage 1 is learning, where in the first 6 months, you are, regardless of level, spending more time taking in than giving out. Number 2 is performance, where you're actually giving out. Number 3 is consolidation. And you're doing this day in, day out, you're performing really well. And number 4 is stagnation. And it's only in the stagnation phase that you need to consider whether you need to find a new role within the organization, or you find the new pen. I really like the idea of the new pen. Terry, thank you so much for the generosity of your time, the generosity of your thoughts. It has been Very good. And I know that so many people will find this very interesting.

No, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. If I can leave you with one thought, and I leave the audience with one thought today, I will leave this with this. Don't be afraid to work with the best, okay? Because the best people can be difficult. They genuinely are difficult. But if you approach someone, if you approach them with an attitude of wanting to learn, They will respond positively, right? Because they want to do something well too, right? The best people are learning consistently, like your example of great people doing things in hours and good people doing things in days. The chances of you coming away with a superior job is not guaranteed. It's basically what you and I want to do in that company. So to all you people out there, it is way better to say that I am good in terms of where things are, but rather than to work the Mr. Average Nice Guy. Yeah. Go out there, make those changes, be as agile as you want to be. And always remember, be the empathetic leader that you can, because someone else out there, they might not be asking for help, but they might silently need help. I'll leave you with that thought for the day. Thank you.

Fantastic. Terry, thank you so much.

Absolute pleasure. Thank you, Pete. Have a great day.