E31: From AE to APAC Sales Director: Fail, Learn and Grow with Tanya Neary

Tania Neary is a high-performance sales leader. She is the sales director at Culture Amp, one of Australia's most successful startups with over 1,000 employees and 8,000 customers globally. They are transforming employee engagement, development, and performance management. Tania joined the company nearly 10 years back as an account executive and has been successively promoted into sales management and sales director roles. She is an absolute champion in terms of the journey that she has been through, growing from a team of 37 employees to 1,000 employees today, and juggling parenthood and everything else that comes both at work and at home. So I am so excited today that we're going to get a deep dive and listen to Tania's story, as well as what she has learned along the way. in terms of believing in yourself, building great systems and structures, and achieving big goals. So, Tania, why did you get into sales?

Ah, the million-dollar question. Like a lot of salespeople, I did fall into sales. I realized when I was moving from retail banking and I went to see the recruitment agent, he was like, have you ever thought of sales? Because of how I was talking about my previous role, like I was really positive about it, but I wanted to make a change. And it's funny, I would have been about 23, and I was so scared of the thought of being commission only. And then when I realized when I did get into sales, the stakes are actually really much higher at that stage. I was living at home when I was 23, and it would have been easy to get into it, but I didn't go for it. And then when I came to Australia, I went to see a recruiter about a job in finance because I'd worked in finance back home, and he said, have you ever thought of being being a recruitment consultant? And I said, oh, it's a bit scary, I don't know. And they did what you call a PRC, and they introduced me to the team, and I ended up working in recruitment for 2 years. So, that's how I initially got into sales 14 years ago.

Oh, that's fantastic. I have— having been a recruiter now for 15 years or more, I have so much respect for recruiters because it is— if you survive more than 3 months, then you You know, you're going to succeed pretty much wherever you go in sales.

It's such a good grinding. Like, people couldn't get the connection between like moving from recruitment into like a different type of sales role. And I'm like, it's pure sales. And like, yeah, in the first 3 to 6 months, they lose so many people. And yeah, I was like on a visa. If I didn't work out, I would have had to go home. So, to think about that 23-year-old going, oh, I'm not too sure about, you know, commission versus, oh my God, I might actually have to leave the country if this doesn't work out. No better driver, I suppose.

And so, tell me the move into Culture Amp at that early stage. What was it like? You know, what was the team? You know, why did you take that role as an account executive? How did that come about?

Yeah, so, after, after 2 years in recruitment, which is actually a great way to build up your connections, and you meet so many people in your network, I moved into Specsavers and did their employee benefits program. And so, it was kind of like I used to put people in companies, then I used to sell their benefits, their corporate programs. And then a friend of mine said, there's this really small tech startup, and I know how, like, mission-driven you are. Like, I'd be banging on about the Specsavers, um, mission about changing the optical market. As a child of a single parent that, you know, wouldn't have been able to afford glasses in Australia— they opened 100 stores in 100 days. I tell anyone who'd listen that it's amazing that you didn't have to pay $1,000 for glasses when they previously had to, because we never had that in Ireland. But she said, I think you should meet them. And I'm like, I don't know anything tech. And she said, but you've been selling to HR for like 4 years. So, I met with Ramon Elzinga, who was our CEO's brother, who was running the sales team, and just instantly thought, this guy's ace, could definitely see myself working for him. I then met with our chief people scientist at the time, Jason McPherson, and our— I think it was our first or second customer success coach, Sly, um, Stephen Lee, and They were awesome. And then I finally met with Didier, the CEO. And like, again, thinking about it, moving from like a global company on a sponsorship visa like Specsavers to a tech startup with like less than 20 people in Australia— I was the first AE on the ground— risky business. But they just, you know, risk for them and risk for me. I was just bought in straight away from talking to the people, like the vision, the values. And it was almost like— It would have been the equivalent of, yeah, getting on a rocket ship that you didn't have any realization was a rocket ship. You were just like there to sell and break into the market.

Love it. I love the fact that you mentioned being mission-driven because I think when we look at account executives or people going after new clients and new customers in startups, there has to be something that keeps you there. So, tell me, what was your first 6 months in sales? And, you know, what did that mean in terms of the challenges and struggles that you had to overcome to be able to be successful?

Like, I had never sold tech before. Like, I remember my first day, they handed me an Apple computer, you know, this iPhone and fancy People Geek t-shirt, and I'm just thinking, where is the fax machine? Where's my drawers to put all stuff in? Like, not that bad, but nearly, because I'm like, this is very like tech. And it was a co-working space, so I'm like, oh my God, hey, like the noise. But The challenges were just getting comfortable with selling to very senior stakeholders quickly. And I had the luxury of selling with, you know, Ramon, who was amazing, with Didier, with Jason, with Katie and Stephen, all of those, like getting exposure and just having all of the founders around you. So we sat within the same office as the founders. Everyone could go out to lunch together. We'd sit in a room with our finance team on a Friday talking about the company runway, how we were looking like. I loved that transparency, transparency and vulnerability. were like 2 things that were straight away like celebrated in Culture Amp. And I'd just never had that before. So it made it safe to fail, which I did a lot. Like, I remember I used to be demoing to Ramon and he'd be like— And I'm like, I'm doing this wrong, am I? Because I can see by your facial expression I'm just butchering the demo. But it was great, like having the luxury of being able to do demos, which such amazing experienced people was, yeah, it was kind of magic.

Fantastic. How did you succeed in your first role? You know, what was the best advice that you received? What was the best coaching that impacted you to be successful in your role in the company?

I think it was actually the doing it. They didn't hold back and say, you're not allowed into meetings or shadow people or just learn like the theory. Like I was learning about the the science behind engagement, and I thought that would give you credibility immediately if you understand them, like how it worked and how we measured engagement. So it was like the combination of knowing that part but being able to actually just go in and demo. And you always had a guardrail with you there, like Ramon was there with me. But you know where you can really, really practice for something and you think, yeah, I've nailed it, and then you go into the room and you're like, uh, it doesn't sound like I meant it to. But actually being able to have the luxury of chatting to people, of doing the demo. Like, Ramon didn't hold me back on things. He was a great mentor. I was very lucky to get to work with him.

So, what are some of the things that you have taken from that phase that you have then passed on to other people who have come into Culture Amp?

The biggest learning for me is I hate seeing my team go down a pathway that I did if it didn't work out, like trying a certain tactic or, you know, doing a certain thing where you're like, that's just not going to work out. But I think allowing them to do that, because 2 things can happen. One, they might fail, and that's really, really good. You know, telling them you might fail is different to actually feeling it. So, we have a Yay, We Failed channel here at Cooltramp.

Oh.

Where, yeah, people just posted, like, from the CEO to C-suite to everyone. And it could be anything. It could be a personal failure, a business failure, and it just, it's really great. So, it's not like, we're not irresponsible. We're not, like, going out and just, you know, messing up things, but it's just that human-centric approach to learning. Yeah, the 2 things that could happen are they might fail, or guess what? Just because you did it and it didn't work out for you doesn't mean that your team might not take the same tact and it can work out for them. That psychological safety, I think, is a big thing.

I absolutely love the yay, we failed, and I have not heard that anywhere else. So, tell me a little bit more about yay, we failed, because I think even just as a cultural component, That is brilliant. What does that actually mean?

Yeah. So, courage to be vulnerable is one of our values. And like a lot of the time you see with leaders, especially where they feel for one way or another that they have to just have all the answers or they can't make mistakes. And working in Fin Services, retail banking, and fund management, I did see that a lot. There was a lot of great leaders, but a lot of male leaders. And it was always like everyone had the answer and I just wasn't safe to fail in some cases. So, coming in and immediately seeing the CEO, everyone just talking and celebrating about it, because it really did mean that, you know, that image of, this is how much you learn from theory, this from practice, and this from failure. And it really was that in practice. So, it was like, let's talk about it, because typically, you just celebrate your wins. Like, let's talk about the wins. Let's talk about the wins. Let's do a retro on the losses, but celebrate the wins. So, it was really flipping that on its head. Remembering we were a no-commission sales team at that stage. So that motivation and that pride were really important to us, as well as like failing, but knowing that it was safe to do it. Like, it was a really— like, it's a— people that have only been on commission or bonuses as salespeople find it really strange that we had a high-performing team that were safe to fail and were doing really well and were motivated and sticking around. Like, it was a pretty magical time.

Wow.

Wow.

So, being, feeling safe to fail. Tell me a little bit more around, you know, you talked about the types of learning from theory, from practice, and from failing. How does that, you know, work out? You know, are there ratios? Is there something that we can— how do people learn best?

I think this is something that we're thinking a lot about with our enablement team. So, for me, somebody giving you the dedicated time and space to learn with them. So, as an example, for like the first 3 weeks when an AE would come on board, I would say, just demo to me every day for half an an hour and like just follow the track. And just having that space where someone is willing to invest in you— they're— I'm giving them their— my time, they're giving me their time, we're giving each other to really invest in it. So not just saying go off and watch Gong or shadow someone, but like you articulating it out loud. Because again, it comes back to that— you can feel so prepared, you can be like, you know it in your head, but then when it comes to actually speaking it, it's so different. So I think for us, when, like, the actionable insights for managers is people do learn differently now, and there's all sorts of, you know, when you think of accessibility and all different levels, like, some people might like reading theory, some people might just like the practice. So, firstly, engaging with where someone is at to make sure that you're actually being inclusive in their learning. And then, the second piece around, I never want someone to just go down a Gong hole. I absolutely love Gong, and I love the stats, and It's been a game changer for sales, but I think that live practice and also getting in on deals early is just, yeah, nothing can replace that.

So, you lead the new business team, as I understand it, correct?

Yeah.

In Asia Pacific. So, you've got probably a large set of people who are responsible for acquiring customers. So, I'm assuming there's a lot of prospecting in your team?

Yep. And another thing we were really lucky at with Cold Trump is, and I still think this is the case, that we have the best product in the market. Obviously I'm biased, but, you know, once we got that brand recognition, our marketing team and our SDR team were really powerful. We didn't have SDRs when I started, but a lot of the prospecting and what we have allowed people to do hasn't been your typical KPI activity. How much activity are you doing? And there's definitely a place For that, but again, it comes down to I have one person that's just like a master networker. They just go out; they make the connections. Their activity, if you looked in Salesforce, would be really low, but they're on there. You know, they're doing it through different channels in different ways, and they have their outbound numbers. And I have others that just love particularly ex-SDRs that love the systems and the prospecting and making the systems work for you. And that whole mantra around you fall or you fail to the level of your systems, like it's ultimately changed. You know, you would know yourself being a recruiter. We just used to be on the phones. That's all we had. Now you just have like so many like options and avenues, but it also can be harder to get cut through. So I would say with our team, like really leveraging the brand and networking and using the systems available to them, like outreach and having that SDR relationship, it's no one size fits all. If someone came into my team and I said, you just need to do it this way, I know I wouldn't be setting them For success. And yes, it can be more complicated and time-consuming, but if you let people thrive in what's natural to them when it comes to prospecting, I think, yeah, that's where the magic happens.

That's fantastic. And that is such a big change from maybe 10 years back when, you know, it was very much about just hitting the phones and, you know, going outbound. Tell me a little bit more about how you kept yourself motivated as an account executive in terms of you know, winning net new clients, generating the logos. What is something that you look back at that time that you discovered about yourself that helped you stay in the game and eventually, obviously, lead teams and lead managers?

I love to win. Like, I love the thought of getting a great product into an organization that can ultimately improve the world of work. That's where the mission-driven sales came from. Like, we're not selling something I think it's just that thing of why I got into sales. When I'm passionate about something, I could be talking to someone about a mascara, a restaurant, Specsavers, or Culture Amp. And when you feel really connected to the mission and the values, you're thinking what we're doing is greater than us. Like, I have children now and I think about, yeah, really improving the world of work. So that really kept me motivated. HR teams are also really, really great to work with. You know, they're, they're the teams that are taking care of people within organizations, but who is taking care of HR sometimes is what we think about. So, it was always good energy, good people. Didn't mean we didn't have really tough procurement conversations or any of that, but hearing people's vision of wanting to change the world of work. And I remember a call with a Big 4 accounting firm and our CEO walking out of the room saying, that is one of the best visions I have ever heard. And I've heard a lot. Like, he would've heard like all the things that were going on in SF and you know, all of these cool brands, and this was like a great recognizable brand, but like what they were wanting to do was so ambitious, and they pulled it off, and that's really inspiring.

Yeah. So, you move into leadership and you start managing AEs fairly soon. You know, I think in the few years you got promoted. Tell me about that transition into leadership and what that meant in terms of now, being responsible for a group of people to achieve their goals?

Yeah, I think, like, I had had people reporting to me before, but not at Culture Amp, but it was so different. Like, I think about how I stepped in and I was so green. I wanted to get into leadership because I felt incredibly privileged that I had had the opportunity to be successful, to close all of these amazing logos as part of a team, and I really wanted to see other people doing that and to have that opportunity. So, I stepped in, and classic, we used— I remember we used to have a Friday meeting where we'd run through like the Salesforce deals, and like none of the deals were updated, none of the next steps are updated, and we just sit there and talk about it in the room. And that's the way I thought we had to do it. Like, that's the way I thought all sales managers had to do it. And then I remember a turning point came when I chatted to one of the team and I said, you know, I obviously have to report to my manager about all of these deals. So, puts pressure on me when you don't do it. And they were like, oh, why didn't you just tell us that? Like, it's— you forget about it sometimes as a manager. You forget to share that vulnerability because they actually, for themselves, they were like, we'll do it, but we'll get around to it. When they feel like someone else was involved, they were like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, we'll do it. And I was like, I never would have thought— because I kind of thought I shouldn't be that vulnerable or I was putting it on them if I was telling them about that. And yeah, it was a real learning. It was a good learning.

Now, looking back again, when you look at salespeople who have been very successful in your teams, what are 3 to 5 traits that you look for? Would you be able to identify that at an interview stage and say, look, I'm looking for these things? What would they include?

Yeah, I mean, back in the day, we probably hired for sales acumen, but it could have been from anywhere. Like, we have a couple of recruiters in Now that we're at different stages of growth, we definitely do look for like generally that tech experience. It just changes the profile. But humility, passion, and team are really big ones for us because I could probably hire a lone wolf that would maybe hire more. And I always remember one of our— sell more. And I always remember one of our CROs saying, if you hire someone that's taking the team around them down 10%, it's just not worth it. And I think that happens so much in sales. They're like, yeah, you know, celebrate the lone wolves, celebrate that. And that's just not something that we do here. So yeah, I want to see like mission-driven— I love value sellers. And that real team sport and, and the humility really does bring a different profile of seller, and it also makes the team Work better together because they actually have each other's backs and they care for one another.

Understood. Yeah. How do you differentiate if someone is going to be more successful in a new business capacity versus an account management role?

Yeah, it's been interesting. And like, I've really wanted to kind of highlight female leaders and female sellers. So this is just such a great opportunity to talk to you because as we were talking about before, I think the stats are 25% of sales managers, and in tech it's 18%. So, yeah, there's no one even to kind of see. And like, I was chatting to one of our recruiters who was saying, like, when the economic downturn was happening, females were stepping out of new business because they were feeling like, oh, maybe I can't do it. But it's always been, you know, the juggle sometimes with family and all of that. And I'm like, that's just typical. Yeah. You know, of you can do it, but we just have this feeling that we can't. So I would say the difference between AM and AE here is we're quite similar. We definitely look for new business type of background for AMs because we want hunters on the AM side as well as the AE side. And I think there's a perception that AM can be the easier route, and certainly sometimes when they're like known. stakeholders and their already existing customers, there's obviously certain benefits. But here specifically at Culture Amp, we definitely need hunters on both sides.

Understood. Now, tell me, how have you juggled, you know, a career that has continued to grow and progress in arguably one of the best Aussie startup scale-up success stories, Your career has continued to grow, and you obviously manage the Asia-Pacific region now. You've had parental leave, and I love that because it would appear that you've been able to juggle those demands. Tell me a little bit more about how have you done that as a leader?

Not perfectly at all, and I'm still navigating it. But I think, you know, before I had kids, I was just loved it, loved it, loved it. Sell, sell, sell, sell. Then I had kids, and I'm like, do I still love it? And I'm like, yes, I do. But now I have these people that I love as much though, I want to be present. And therefore, I had an exceptionally supportive CRO, Rich Ansett, who made it very, very easy for me to step out and come back. So even with that support, it was still tough. I had to prove to myself that I could actually make it work. And it was almost easier coming back the first time around because I've chatted to a lot of mums about this because it was COVID. So everyone was upside down. So you didn't really notice these Mums coming back and also feeling— The second time was definitely harder, I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes I check Slack on my days off and I don't feel like I'm as present a mum as I should be when I do that. And then I get that parent guilt. So it's really about creating your own boundaries, which I'm really, really working on. And lucky to have a supportive team to come back to, and my own team encouraged me to stay logged off on the day that I'm supposed to be off because You know, it's one day, but it's a balance. I, you know, you can't have it all. Anyone that says you can, I mean, I need to learn the secrets, but I just kind of try and go easy on myself because if I do need to do something on a Wednesday, well then, you know what, maybe take an hour back here or there. And I want to see more. I don't know any other female sales directors that don't work 5 days, so I want to see more of it.

I think what's amazing is that you have been able to continue to grow with a growing organization. And you have been able to do that without having to leave the organization, which has often been the case for so many where they have to choose. It's either this or that, rather than it being this and that. And I was talking to another female leader who I Respect greatly. And she was talking about her concept of work-life harmony rather than work-life balance. And really, it was about being present wherever the demand is the greatest and finding a compassionate, supportive environment on the other side. So if the family needs that more, she's able to give that more and have the business support her there. Or if the business needs her more, finding that the other way around. So I love it. People have different coping mechanisms. And that helps her not live in guilt, as she was saying.

Yeah, give yourself a break. Like, parent guilt is just so horrible. And I suffer from it so much. And I just think as well, like, I'm honest about it. Like, I look at a lot of, you know, I know there's a lot of people my age or a little bit older. And, you know, some that don't have kids or some that are not the primary carer that are in more senior roles, you know, their VP roles or SVP roles, But for me, growing with a company and being a senior director is the equivalent of, you know, going to a smaller company and doing that. So, Coulteramp has always kept it interesting with, you know, 3 acquisitions, new products. I'll never know everything that there is to know, and that's a good thing for me.

As we wrap up, I have one last question. What advice would you have for someone who is early in their career? They're looking at what you've accomplished in terms of your career. And I would say, especially, we need more female sales leaders. There is a gender imbalance in the tech industry. What advice would you give them for someone who says, you know, I want what she's got? 3 to 5 things that they should do intentionally.

I would say that self-belief is a big thing, like believe that you can do it, but not overthink it, right? I didn't know what I was stepping into in Culture Amp. I just was drawn into their mission. So, I think aligning your mission and values with a company means that you'll give more, and when you give more, you will get more. So it was just like, I give more. It was like this very reciprocal type of relationship. So, you know, if I was to now go out and look for that next company, honestly, I don't know what it would be. So I think really trusting your gut and the type of company that you're joining and utilizing all of the mentors around you. You know, we used to sit with the CEO and founders and just picking their brains and not feeling like, you know, you don't want to waste people's time, but, you know, asking someone for coffee just because you want to pick their brains or learn about their journey. Like, most people will be generous with their time, particularly for underrepresented groups, I know, which females is just one tiny demographic. Yeah, yeah. Learning your craft and learning a structured sales process, because I'm very passionate about that. Because if we're all speaking the same language, like, you know, we've done Sandler, we've done Winning by Design, we've done Challenger, and I think— I don't think there's any that's better than the other. I think it's just when you have a whole sales team speaking the same language around pain funnel or a third party. So, like, that structured selling, that self-belief, and that using the mentors around you, and that your gut won't let you down. Like, if you're really passionate about this company, and I know that that's not possible all the time, but, you know, find what it is for you, your own EVP or employee value proposition. I think that gives you a lot of energy and drive.

That is such good advice. I love the comment you made earlier about failing to your level of your systems, and I think that You know, a lot of people today, if they don't find themselves in a structured environment, you know, really creating the journey like you mentioned about grabbing the mentors, you know, getting the necessary input and help can make a huge difference in their own self-belief as they see success come from just good systems, good mentors, and a self-belief and being mission-driven.

Yeah, there's no silver bullet, which is great. And there's no black box, right? There's no way to fast-track this. You've just got to go through it. And the learnings in sales are great. You can take them to so many— in so many different pathways. So I think that when it comes to systems and the way you set yourself up, it's different for everyone. But a system that works for you, because definitely time management is one of the biggest thieves, and you can be really busy doing not very much. So those high-value activities that actually yield a return on investment and As salespeople, everything feels urgent. So, the ruthless prioritization, because is it important urgent or is it— our default is everything is urgent. So, I think that time management and that your own calendar management, as well as all the different systems, really sets you up for success. And it's something I'm still working on.

Same here. I've got at one spot written, selective is effective, so that I'm not feeling guilty about responding to every ping across every channel, but rather intentionally ignoring what I need to ignore so that I can do the few things that we need to get done.

Yeah, I like— I love our people scientists and our customer success team here. Like, we work with a lot of PhDs in psychology and all of that. We're always picking their brains, but they're really great for doing deep work. They just put in their earplugs and you don't interrupt. We're always like, Better check Slack, better check an email because what if that contract came in? I don't think an error would make a difference, but our brains are like giving us dopamine hits on it. So, it's a much bigger piece.

I love it. Tania, thank you so much. This has been really good. There's some real gems. I know it's going to help so many people who listen to this. So, thank you so much. I wish you great success and I appreciate you being so generous with your time today.

Likewise, thank you for the opportunity. Um, I've loved chatting to you, so thank you so much for giving up your valuable time also. Thank you.