E39: The Happiest Man Alive, Camino Treks and Cycling Italy: Get Smarter and Stronger through Sabbaticals with David Hope

And as part of that trip, I then took a helicopter from Kathmandu up to Everest Base Camp. We circled Everest Base Camp. You cannot land around that area. So that chopper dropped me a couple of kilometers a bit further down from Base Camp. And then I spent a solo 3 nights trekking back down Everest Base Camp. Through, you know, the Himalayan path back down to Lukla. And it was a brilliant start to the sabbatical because it was a reflective time. It was beautiful scenery. And as I was trekking down that path, it made me realize what a great decision to take a sabbatical. It just reinforced everything that this was about.

David Hope is an APAC SVP and has worked with companies like Workday, ForgeRock, and many other iconic names. Recently, he went on a sabbatical which starts in the Himalayas in Nepal, and he meets the Rinpoche. He then moves on to move through Europe, through Gallipoli, Ephesus, uh, Crete, and some amazing locations, meeting interesting people and distills some really valuable lessons for us. As a result, he has returned from his sabbatical smarter and stronger, body and mind. And so today, as we jump into this episode, we're going to listen to his story. And I'm sure you're going to want a sabbatical like this. So let's jump right in. I've been pursuing David Hope for months, messaging him because I've been watching his amazing sabbatical with every experience that I wish I got to have. So, finally, David has come back to Singapore and he said yes. And I am so excited that he's joining us today. So, David, thank you for joining me.

Thank you, Preet. Thank you for your persistence and delighted to be here. So, looking forward to our chat.

Fantastic. So, you have lived in Asia for 40 years. You are writing a book around the history of Singapore-specific aspects. So you really are entrenched in the region, but you're not from Singapore. So tell me a little bit more about your journey and how you got there.

Thank you, Pri. Um, yes, an interesting, an interesting question. So I was actually raised, uh, as the son of an expat family. So In the early '70s, my father set up BHP's first office in Manila in the Philippines. So at that time, the Philippines was like the Asian tiger, was the top of the heap. There was a lot of American investment. There was a lot of stability because of martial law. And I spent nearly 11 years growing up there, which was a very rich childhood. I love that. Learned a lot, went to 3 different schools. And so growing up with all my years, my childhood years in Asia, I just felt as though it was in my blood and I had to get back to Asia at some point. So my family relocated from the Philippines back to Melbourne for 3 or 4 years. I did my middle school years there. I finished high school in Brisbane for a couple of years. I went to university in Sydney, and then I got my first role out of university with the Japanese trading house Itochu. And we were trading commodities and import and export, and it was this fantastic, crazy ride. But I kept lobbying them to give me the opportunity to have an overseas posting. And finally, they relented because of this nagging Aussie guy who was continually saying, this would be good for both of us. And I ended up becoming the company's first ever management trainee to be sent to Tokyo. And so with that experience, I was living in the company dormitory. I was one of few gaijin in an office of 6,000 Japanese nationals. And it was just the most incredible learning experience culturally, just meeting so many different people. It was just a brilliant journey. And so after that, just shy of 2 years, I came back to Sydney for 6 months and I said, I have got to get back to Asia. This is, you know, I'm almost shaking that I'm back in Oz. My heart My DNA is Asia. And I got a manufacturing— I was in a sales and manufacturing role, but with a manufacturing company that was a subsidiary of Alcatel. And I joined them in Singapore. Okay, so that's coming up to almost 30 years ago, Pri. I can't believe how quickly time flies. And after a few years, in that role, I was approached by a headhunter about the opportunity in the ERP industry. And that got me very excited. Tech got me very excited. The world of B2B software got me very excited. And I ended up taking a role with IBM. And that— I was just under 5 years with IBM. Although I knew I was never a career IBMer, The learning opportunity and the training and the power of the global network that IBM had was an incredible training ground for me. And I was so fortunate, they sent me to their Harvard Summer Program and things like that, just an incredible, incredible opportunity. So, Pri, that gave me that grounding. And then from there, I then joined a European ERP company, Intensia. And then the rest is history. I then, over that next 25 years, have been running tech companies out of Singapore, have been selling from India all the way to Japan, direct channels, hybrid models, offices all over the region, offices in some countries, opening new markets. And I couldn't in hindsight, have asked for a more exciting opportunity in which to develop a career, Priya. I've met some incredible people. I've had the wonderful opportunity of building brilliant teams, working with fantastic customers, continually learning, and I feel very, very fortunate. And so to lead on, because I know you're going to ask me this question about the sabbatical, The last role I had, I was with ForgeRock in the identity and access management space, in the cybersecurity space. And I had been running and building their business for the last 4 and a half years. We built a great team. It was terrific. We listed in New York in 2021 on the New York Stock Exchange. And it was absolutely brilliant, but at the start of this year, The company went private and was acquired by private equity. And with that craziness, the merging with our biggest competitor pre-acquisition, I thought, Pri, it's time for a new adventure. But this year is going to be a personal adventure. And that's how we've got to this call.

That's fantastic. I mean, when I have just reflecting on the stories that you kept sharing on LinkedIn through the year. I went along and I was like, wow, if this is how you do a sabbatical, enrich yourself, have— because I saw from trips with YPO to AI workshops to Love the picture on you having coffee with your daughter in the UK. And I'm like, he's everywhere. So in that context, I'm going to narrow this down to tell us about 3 significant experiences. And I have some questions. But let's jump into the first one.

OK, great. So what we did, as soon as this news happened, the decision was made, my wife and I sat down and we said, we're going to develop a theme around the sabbatical and what we're going to do for the next 6 months. And we called it Living, Learning, and Doing.

All right.

And we have a passion for history and we're also very active people. So we said, 2 things we need to combine into this sabbatical is activeness in many different ways. Learning is absolutely critical. And then particularly where we can encapsulate learning through history, etc. And of course, places like Nepal and Europe, etc., are just amazing for that. So it started off, the year started, I left, only this part of the sabbatical was solo. And I went with 20 global leaders to Nepal. And I said to myself, I'm open to any experiences. I want to push the boundaries. I want to do things I wouldn't normally do. And Pri, if you'd asked me a few years ago, could I see myself sleeping in a monastery in Nepal for 3 nights and spending a couple of days with a Buddhist guru, I would have said, no.

Free, really?

But that was one of the first things that I did, and it was an incredible, incredible experience. And then as part of that trip, I then took a helicopter from Kathmandu up to Everest Base Camp. We circled Everest Base Camp. You cannot land around that area, so that chopper dropped me a couple of kilometers, a bit further down from base camp. And then I spent a solo 3 nights trekking back down through the, you know, the Himalayan path back down to Lukla. And it was a brilliant start to the sabbatical because it was a reflective time. It was beautiful scenery. And as I was trekking down that path, it made me realize what a great decision to take a sabbatical. It just reinforced everything that this was about, right? So in terms of maybe the top 3 takeaways, that trip was absolutely unbelievable. The second one was that my wife, Alex, and I, We then trekked, maybe trekked or long walked, 260 kilometers. Yeah, sorry, I can see a question popping up there.

As you were talking about trekking back from base camp to Lukla, my head was already filled with images. So let's go back there for a second.

Okay, yes.

You know, 3 days solo, right? Did I hear that right?

Yes. Okay.

A 3-day solo. Before that, you sleep 3 days in a monastery on, you know, so tell me about a person, any person that you met that was, that just stands out from that trip.

Okay, so, so, well, the first one, which was the Yonggor Rinpoche, which was this very well-known, famous Buddhist monk, and it was his monastery where we stayed. Forbes magazine describes him as the happiest man in the world. Okay. Now, I thought, if I can spend some time with the happiest man in the world and just a couple of percent rubs off, that's going to be a big, big win for me. Right. And he also wrote a New York Times bestseller called The Joy of Living. So happiness, joy of living. He's done TED Talks. So spending 3 days with him and just listening to his philosophy, making the complex simple, teaching us about the power of meditation and meditation techniques. And Priya, it made me realize that, you know, fitness, physical fitness, you know, we focus on that, but we don't ever focus on the fitness of the mind. And this is what it was all about, being self-aware, really using the power of meditation. So, so that was— he was absolutely incredible. But one sort of a funny moment I had, Pri, was also in Nepal. And we're trekking around. There's quite a famous old sort of a temple where a lot of tourists go, thousands of years old, called the Monkey Temple.

Oh, yeah.

And I see this guy and he's got this very cool sort of gimbal video camera. And I went up to him and I said, wow, that's really cool. Is that a video camera? And he said, yeah, yeah, I just load my videos straight up to YouTube. And I said, oh, have you got a YouTube channel? He said, no, I founded YouTube. I went, oh, really? And so it turned out, you know, he was Steve Chen, the loveliest guy. And then just to stand there and talk to him about the history of founding YouTube and what he went through, and the first video was his personal video. And here I am, In this remote place in Kathmandu, you know, chatting with this amazing guy, Steve, that pure serendipity, right? Just, oh my God, just incredible.

Sounds like, you know, you wouldn't script or plan that in there, just had to.

And then one more coincidence, which I must share with you. So, So this is during the time that we were cycling in Italy, right? Again, part of this active program. And when I first entered the ERP world, I was working for a European software, Swedish software company called Intensio. Great company, great culture, lots of great friends after all these years. And that company was founded at a university in Linköping, in Sweden. And at the same time, another company was founded called IFS, right? And IFS is still going and is a very well-known global software company now. So it's always been a name that is just so, so well known to me. And we're on this cycling trip. And I get introduced to this, again, a great guy, Manny Swenson, And so, Manny, what's your background? Oh, I founded IFS. And it sort of just looped back. And here we are in the Italian Riviera cycling, and I'm meeting one of the founders whose names I'd heard 25 years earlier. Again, those coincidences while traveling are just amazing.

Amazing. Okay. So, we go back to Kathmandu. You're thinking, this guy's not going to get off Kathmandu. But the question I have, so you've spent time with the happiest guy in the world, Joy of Living, Steve Chen. You then walk back 3 days solo. What was your biggest aha reflection thought that you would associate with that time in Kathmandu?

Yes. Well, it started off— it really made me realize that to be a fit, physically fit, but fit all-round person, it's so important to spend time on the mind, spend time on yourself, Be more aware of yourself. So I've always been a really strong advocate in authentic leadership, Pri. But I don't think you can practice authentic leadership unless you're authentic with yourself, right? And so as I pulled all those pieces sort of together, I think by being more aware of myself, Helping me really understand the importance of authentic leadership. Hopefully, and that's for people that are around me to make that decision, hopefully I've become a better leader or more authentic leader, more aware of people, more aware of people, whether it's teams and whether it's professionally or socially, their needs, their drives, their desires, which helps them and helps me to be a better person. So there was lots of different components, but they were sort of the things that sort of really resonated with me on that trek back down.

All right. What advice would you have for me to improve my mindfulness?

Okay. So And there are so many tools online and there are so many different ways of doing things, right? But what I really liked about the philosophy which we learned pre was you don't have to become a mindfulness expert. You don't need to dedicate 2 hours per day. You don't need to go and sit on the top of Mount Everest and be enlightened, right? In fact, His philosophy, Pri, was very much about meditation should be like brushing your teeth. It just becomes part of your daily routine. And even if you're just doing a minimum of 5 minutes a day, just to be present, just to get away from all that craziness. And one of the things that it also does, it helps with calmness of the mind. It helps with dealing with anxiety. And I was listening to your podcast with— was it Andrew Moran the other day about forecasting? And you both were talking about the stress through the whole organization about the pressure of forecasting and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's just the corporate world in which we live to drive, to be successful, to hit our numbers. It's such a critical component of what we do. But it's also a tool of just being able to help deal with those sort of day-to-day stresses or anxiety and helping other people to deal with those things. And it also gave a perspective that, you know, the world's a much bigger place. When we're caught up in the day-to-day corporate pressures, we become very focused. It's very hard to escape that hamster wheel, and we get our adrenaline runs, and there's nothing like celebrating success, and there's nothing like winning with the team, and there's nothing like going live successfully with a big customer. But at the end of the day, we must also be able to step back. We must be able to recharge. We must be able to rebuild. And that makes us better people and better equipped to deal with with day-to-day challenges. And I really believe that.

Brilliant. And I think that we are living at a time, thankfully, post-COVID, where people are more aware gradually about the importance of mental health and that you need to embrace— it's a skill that you need to embrace, whether it's breathing, whether it's reflection, whether it's getting away, whether it's switching off that phone and Putting it away and whatever it is that it takes, but that you've got to build that ability. Otherwise, if you are constantly associated, then the way I see it is that your sympathetic nervous system will be exhausted, whereas your parasympathetic system, which needs to be strengthened, your ability to disassociate is critical.

Yes. And Pri, you know, we are— the world is just— the distractions in the world are just increasing nonstop. And we've got all these distractions and things coming in and out of our head. And AI is sort of, you know, increasing that sort of scenario. So, to be able to, as you say, step away, free the mind, put the phone aside, It's just so powerful, right? So fully agree with what you're saying.

Fantastic. Okay. Experience 2. What was your second experience? Okay.

So that was— yeah, so that was, again, nothing to do with religious beliefs or anything like that. But an adventure what we thought would be really interesting is walking the historical Camino Trail. So my wife and I started in Porto and we walked 260 kilometers to Santiago. And, you know, some days we'd walk 30 kilometers, some days we'd walk 20. I think the shortest was, was 9. But, you know, we had an opportunity to meet amazing people from around the world, eat some incredible food. I mean, what a great country where a can of beer is cheaper than a bottle of mineral water, Pri. And so just to be able to trek and at the same time fulfilling that activeness, it was a lot of great time of thinking again and reflection because you're just walking for such a long period of time. It was very sort of enriching, rewarding, taking that time that in one way I thought, gee, I'd never get the chance to do this. So, you know, I think one of the richest things we can have in life is time. But you've got to create that time. And it's very, very hard to do, right? And so, and all the history along that route was incredible. So that was the second experience.

Okay. And so a few more questions around that because That's been on my radar. I'm sure a lot of people who are listening, they've come across the Camino story before. And if not, I would encourage you to Google it and find out more. Tell me, how long did it take you? Where did you spend your nights? Yeah, tell me a little bit more about that.

Yes. So, it took a total of 2 and a half weeks. But we had what I would call 3 lazy nights pre where we stayed an extra night because every day we would stay either at a guest house or a hotel or, you know, it all depended on, you know, sometimes we're in very, very small villages. One night we stayed in a 400-year-old converted Women's jail, you know, and that was being converted into a hotel room, right? We stayed another time in a, in a castle surrounded by original cannons overlooking the sea. And every night would be a different place. And we'd organized with a company that would take our backpack to the, to the next place and we would arrive. We got very sick of unpacking and very sick of packing in the morning and moving on. But that was all part of the exercise. And then we made sure we had enough time to discover some great restaurants and some of the— visit some of the key historical sites along the way. So that's how we did it.

All right. So before we move to number 3, I want to know, you've spent many days walking. So what was your big Aha, epiphany, thought that you associate with that time?

Yes. Well, I think, well, probably more humorous one. But my wife, Alex, and I laugh. And we've been married for 30 years, Pri. But we said, if we can last walking 260 kilometers together— and my son did laugh at a few photos I sent back where I had my big headphones on. And a couple of days of walking, I said, you know, if we can do this together, then I think we've got a pretty good relationship that we can continue for the future. So yeah, that was probably one of the key takeaways, which is a great personal takeaway, right? So it was awesome.

I think that is simple but so profound. You want to surround yourself with people you can spend some time with. Because even with hiring, you know, and in my opinion, as someone who's in the crossroads of hiring every hour of every day for the last 15 years, it comes back to, I feel, if you have values friction is the number one reason. It's not cultures, background, it's values. The moment there is a mismatch of values, it's that pebble in your shoe that you can't get rid of.

Yes.

And you can't walk too fast. So if you can do the kilometers, you've got it made. Congratulations.

And the great thing is, we walk together in the same direction, not opposite directions.

Very good. Very good. So number 3 experience.

Okay. So I think number 3, and this was such a hard question to answer because there were just so many amazing experiences. And okay, and I'm gonna go back one of the questions you asked me about learnings. I've now discovered, or I believe, that richness and wealth come through experiences, right? You know, just the different experiences on this trip was just mind-boggling, eye-opening. And I loved that the activeness of the trip that we set out to do was inspiring in itself. So whether we were exploring the World War I battlefields of Gallipoli in Turkey or the Alps in Italy and Slovenia, you know, stunning, stunning places, but also just filled with all this history. Whether it was the cycling in Italy that I mentioned, and then just again another small thing in Crete, We stayed at this little fishing village called Mochlos. And across from Mochlos was this small little island about 250 meters away. And we would swim to the island and then to actually then swim around the island was about 1.8 Ks. And there was one time where we were a little bit overambitious and on the other side of the island, the waves were Quite large. And we were looking at ourselves thinking, is this a smart thing to do? But on that island were the 4,000-year-old ruins of a Minoan civilization. You know, this is before the Greeks. And here you could see all the ruins, there's broken pottery. And again, it's just like mind-boggling, that history. So we spent several times, we would Swim over the island, explore the island. So the other thing is, you know, we went to the Roman ruins of Ephesus. We went to the underground city of Cappadocia in in Turkey. You know, we went to the Isle of Wight in England, and the Rear Admiral Rear Admiral took us on a personal tour of the oldest yacht club in the world. And here are original letters by Lord Nelson. Here is Queen Victoria's trophy that she used to present to the winners of these races. Again, I'm standing in this room thinking, wow, we in a way were so insignificant in all this history and the history of the world. I just so appreciated that opportunity, Preece. I'm condensing a whole bunch of things that highlight. But, and there were more and there were more and there were more. But it was, I just felt so inspired every day. So inspired. So that continuous learning, whether it was learning new places, learning new cultures, learning the history, whether it was museums, whether it was battlefields, whether it was trekking in ancient Alps or swimming around these sort of Minoan ruins was so uplifting and inspiring.

Wow. Well, I've got my list now just gets longer because I think since 2018, barring the 1.5 years where, or 2 years, we were locked out our airspace, we couldn't get out anywhere for COVID. It started with Our kids being old enough to leave with family or someone else. And my wife and I took a trip to Rome. And I discovered that just getting some time with her and me was a very different dynamic where we were not mom and dad, but we were the same 2 people who met when we— in my case, when we were 16. And it gave us space to have that. Playful enjoyment of life. And so, since then, every year, I actually book, number one, a family trip with my wife and me and the 3 kids. So, that's once a year. And then, 6 months after that is a trip for her and me. And we've now done that for 4 years out of the last 6 years. I couldn't agree more with you because whenever I have a moment where things around me seem crazy or it builds, I just need to look at my photos and it's an escape. That's a moment in time that if I had not prioritized, that is a rich place within me that exists because I made the choice to go and enrich myself in one way. Thank you.

Good on you. Good on you.

Number 3, let's get to the 3rd experience.

Yes. Well, that was what I was wrapping up into that experience.

Got it.

Just the, you know, the activeness around the experience of travel, right? Different places, but doing it in a sort of an energetic way. And it's not, you know, and I'm not I'm not a fitness guru, but I love fitness. I love running. I love walking. I love scuba diving, those sorts of things. But again, it's one part of my life, right? You can see a few cigar boxes behind me. I enjoy a good cigar, right? So to me, it's all about being balanced. But I think continuous learning. is just so critical. And so, you think of a sabbatical, probably not— some people would think of a sabbatical not as a learning experience, but I think it was an unbelievable learning experience for us. And as you mentioned, whether it was tailored learning like doing an AI course in London or learning through sessions in museums or tours or whatever, Yeah. But every day was a learning experience, and I feel really grateful that I had the time to be able to really soak that up and enjoy it.

Well, for everyone who's been watching or listening, I'd just say, look at the radiance on David's face, and you can tell— I don't have to tell it or sell it anymore. The energy, the— but that's true, right? Because you've invested in yourself, and then that becomes a gift that keeps giving.

So yeah, it's a good way of summarizing that. Yes, fully agree.

So thank you so much for sharing this with us today. It has been enriching. I would have kept you for hours, but I am very mindful of your time. And you will share some pictures along the way as well. So Thank you. I would strongly recommend anyone who has the gift of not having to, having to head to work on Monday. Yeah, take that and invest in yourself, and you'll probably end up with experiences that you will remember for a lifetime. So—

And, and Pri, and I do really believe, you know, the power of people, communities, networking, it's so critical for us just in our human nature, right? But particularly in the industries of which many of your listeners and your viewers work, it can be seen to be very hard to find the time, to create the time, to invest in the time. But I think once you do it and you set your mind to it, There was that famous book recently, We Live 4,030 Weeks, and you read that title and you go, oh my goodness. And I kind of feel like if we didn't do it now and take that opportunity, when would we do it? And I would just encourage your community, everyone deserves at least one serious sabbatical in their career. Hopefully a few series of flowing ones, but create the opportunity, cut free for a while. You'll come back to whatever you're doing, whether it's the corporate world, whether it's something else, stronger, richer, wiser, and healthier. You know, so I really encourage that.

That is so good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I've got here 4,000 Weeks right here in front of me.

There you go.

There we go. And that's another reason why, David, I think that so much of what we've talked about, there is so much resonance. I think this book, and I'll finish with this, it talks about finitude. We have a finite amount of time. And within that, between pursuing goals at work and being The rest of us as well, because we bring the rest of us to work. And the moment you've made that investment, when you've had the opportunity to take a break— because I believe you're never going to have the time, you're going to make the time, right? And so that's the reason why when you do that, you come back and you bring this smarter, better self back into the workplace, which is good for everyone you lead.

Everybody, exactly. You've hit the nail right on the head, Priy, spot on.

Thank you very much.