E42: Why Sales Leaders Fail – And How to Win Instead with Bart Fanelli

The fundamental flaw starts with the fact that when a sales leader takes on a team or a VP takes on a geography and/or a CRO takes on the full book of revenue for a company, the understanding of what you're inheriting is the most important part to define what your next best action is.

Bart Fanelli is the CEO and co-founder of Skilibrum. Prior to this, he was the CRO at OutSystems, and prior to that, he was the VP of Field Success at Splunk for 7 years. So Bart brings a wealth of experience both horizontally as well as vertically on how organizations can deliver revenue results and why sales leaders fail.

Bart, thank you for joining me today.

I am so excited to have you. Paul Arthur spoke wonderfully of the time he has worked with you and how long he's known you. So, having seen your work with Success Cadence, what you're doing with Skilibrum, and your rich history with OutSystems and Splunk, I've just been waiting to talk to you. So, thank you so much.

Man. So, likewise, I'm super excited to be a guest. And props to Paul Arthur. He's a wonderful man. I've worked with him and known him for years and, uh, yeah, top shelf for sure. So that makes me feel good.

So, all right. I looked at your career and it, and it's really interesting because I spend a lot of time with CROs, sales VPs, and sellers day in, day out, weeks, months, years, uh, used to be one. And I noticed that you chose a path which started with sales, And then went into enablement. And it was really interesting because then how that has culminated back with being a CRO and then a CEO. Walk me through some of the thoughts and some of the results of taking the, I guess, the road less traveled sometimes.

Yeah. So I always say I'm a journeyman. So learning for me was always doing. So that was a big deal. I had to learn by doing. You know, I met Paul Arthur and my career started really at BMC where they had a great training program and you knew what you were signing up for and they invested in you. And that was when I was in sales, sales leadership, and then best practices. So contract structures, rev-rec, things of the like. And then also in enablement, as you mentioned. And then off to Splunk, and I was in enablement, in operations, in field success, which was markets that were in industry and global. I had the renewals team, which was a $250 million book of business. And then overall field success was back to enablement, value consulting, market specialization, and briefing center as well. So it's not a traditional path, but What I can tell you is I've been in the front, I've been in the back of the office, and I've been everywhere in between with finance, with legal, and collaborating with all of the stakeholders that make now me very comfortable at any level with anybody talking about business and what a best practice is based on experience. So, it's just my journey. Everybody's different, but it wasn't a straight line, that's for sure.

And it's really interesting, the different functions that you've played in, because I'd say if you look at 80% or 70% of the leaders, they have a far more linear progression. And that creates challenges because each role demands something different from you, right? And each role has new challenges. So tell me more about that.

You're right. The experience alone of having a full 360 view of how a company or a business unit or a go-to-market team has to operate at peak efficiency and how it requires the integration of all of the supporting functions for it to work optimally, whether it's product marketing and management, whether it's legal, whether it's finance. Finance, whether it's rev-rec as part of finance, all of these elements, if you understand them all, and you can easily create a high-powered go-to-market team with help from everybody. And you can bring them in. We always like to bring them into the mix early. It helps you build credibility and run a very pragmatic and defensible book of business. If it was a linear experience, scorched earth would be the mentality because that's in a lot of ways what sellers are taught. But it changes. You know, it's been, it's been 2 and a half decades for me now. But, and it's changed. It's today, the well-rounded approach is more appreciated. In the, in the early mid-2000s, it was get it done at all costs. Nobody cared. Right. So it's amazing to watch how industry has evolved to now for me to be very comfortable in a well-rounded role to execute and to help others execute and to deliver value. It's just a different journey. It's a lot of fun.

Yeah. And I'm thinking of what you're saying and I'm thinking of how you've gone to where the puck is going to be.

Well, it's interesting that you mentioned that. So skating where the puck is going. So I did a piece with Harvard Business Review in 2017 or '18. And one of the comments, and this is from one of my coaches and mentors, Tom Shodwarf, whom knows Paul Arthur really well. The concept was when you have the experience and you've been involved with all these different functions, you know where the problems are. So therefore, you can look around the corner. And avoid the problems. So essentially, you're skating where the puck is going, and so you don't—it's a no-look pass, essentially, because that's what go-to-market and selling professional selling should be. It should be the same for the customer as it should be for all of the internal teams. No-look pass. Everybody should know what's expected and have a wonderful experience doing it. And that—that's a different animal. It requires a high level of confidence that. prevents you from chasing the number solely and makes you, um, very empathetic with everyone involved and still getting exemplary results. That's the difference.

So the state of play today with go-to-market, RevOps, and what is required from CROs today, what would you say are the top 3 to 5 Skills or attributes that CROs and sales leaders need?

A great question. It's a hard question because the audience will be varied, so I can't calculate my response, but they have to have a very complete understanding of business acumen in general, right? So you have to know RevOps in order to be an effective Sales leader, in my opinion. Otherwise, you can't run efficiently. You can still make the number, right? So if you don't have the RevOps angle in your blood, where objective measures are what give you the confidence in your next best action. So the other way to think about it is if you don't have a RevOps lens as a CRO, then you're simply going as fast as you can and hoping for the best. And then everyone's trying to fix your problems along. The way rather than you being intentional. So that would be one. The other would be understanding commercial legal. And the reason I say that as a CRO is you can absolutely influence how opportunities are structured in the selling process, provided you know what rev-rec or commercial terms trigger good or bad revenue recognition, as an example. So that makes you very powerful by having those 2, let's say those 2 lenses, RevOps and then commercial terms from a legal perspective. So now that was my best practices background. Paul Arthur knows me from that role at BMC. From a RevOps and/or operations perspective, I did that at Splunk. And then I collaborated very closely in both cases at the CFO and at the chief legal officer level. Because guess what? Having those folks in your camp from the very beginning is what scaling a company is all about. You can't do things that compromise them, and they can't do things that prevent you from— you and your team from being successful. So therefore, you have to be symbiotic. And I'll say something controversial, and it's not intentional, but it's a firm belief of mine. Everyone says sales and marketing needs to be aligned. Well, I don't put it in that order. It's sales and finance has to be aligned because any plan that is delivered to the field without mutual agreement between finance and the CRO CFO and the CRO will diminish the ability for any marketing relationship to succeed. Now, and that is a pet peeve of mine, overassignment of quota or arbitrarily rolling out a plan without full integration of your RevOps and CRO is a losing strategy. I will argue that on that hill. I would fight on that hill every day, all day long. It is the CFO and the CRO that have to be violently aligned. In order to create a good model that everyone can succeed with. Then the relationship with the CMO becomes glorious. Otherwise, it's contentious. So I'll give you one more lens. There is a level of professional development or empathy for growing people that differentiates good CROs from great CROs. They don't leave anybody behind. That's the idea. And so, so rather than the sole responsibility being just making the number, it's how do I fortify the team and develop them and grow them so that making the number becomes less contentious? It's healthier for the company, it's healthier for the teams involved, and therefore you have HR on your side. Instead of them cleaning up your mess from scorching earth and finance and rev-rec chasing you for what's going to get pulled out of the business because it can't be recognized, or legal dealing with unhappy customers because sellers have promised what they can't deliver. That's a long-winded response, but I would say those are the elements. You have to have a little bit of all of your complementary executive team. You have to have a little bit of their skill, but you still got to have the drive as a CRO to get it done at all costs and do it all hours of the day and night, as we know. But that's it. That's what it takes.

Yeah. Those are brilliant lenses. Very profound. Because from my point of view, I get to engage from pre-seed through to A, B, C, D, E, post-public, as well as PE-owned companies. And I see the larger the scale, if there is a deviance between or a lack of alignment between CFO, CRO, and the rest of the organization, the bigger it is, the further you're going to go. And it just becomes very clear in these organizations. And we see not only the US, we see international, then we see Asia. And it is stark.

It's complex. And so, this notion of a balanced executive team at the CEO level, now, I carry the CEO title, but there's 29 people or so, right? Including contractors. So, it's small. Obviously, as a CRO, I had a bigger remit. My goal, of course, is to grow to have the same scale as the CEO with The knowledge that I've gained from all of the A-players that I've collaborated with. I never ever— and this is what I think took me my journey longer— I never felt like I was the smartest. I always felt that I was the chameleon and the most resilient. And I would never back down from any fight on what the right thing to do was. So I was never always in favor Because of that. Now, when you start to get into the executive suite in the boardroom, that DNA travels because great CEOs, they're holistic in their approach and their view. They're not tyrants. They should not be tyrants. You can't build a culture that scales that way. If you are complementary and you bring everybody in the boat, Early, you build those relationships, you end up having alliances that help you make the number, and that becomes everybody's responsibility. Sales leads companies. I— it's a hard thing for people to understand, but if you get it right, if you get it right and you do it in an integrated way, then the right behavior prevails and you can build for scale. That's the lightning in a bottle that we caught at Splunk. And we had a very nice run at OutSystems. as well. They're still doing well and having a great run. But it's all about balanced and pragmatic execution at scale.

Fantastic. So we've talked about the integration at a, let's just say, at a horizontal level at the C-suite. Now let's talk about more the vertical challenges within the sales leadership. Now I know you've seen and worked with sales leaders All your life from different lenses. So what are the top 5 to 7 reasons why CROs or sales leaders at different levels of the organization, why do they fail? What are the common reasons that you're seeing?

It's easier than we think, but it's easy to identify. It's very hard to deliver and execute. The fundamental flaw Starts with the fact that when a sales leader takes on a team or a VP takes on a geography and/or a CRO takes on the full book of revenue for a company, the understanding of what you're inheriting is the most important part to define what your next best action is. You can go CRO to CRO in different companies And the job is completely different because one CRO remit might have full autonomy and authority to create that integrated approach where everybody is aligned. Another CRO remit might just be the title, but you are really a chief sales officer where you're given what you're given and you must go make the number no matter how it's designed.

Right.

The former is way better than the latter. Like, you don't want the CRO title with the sales leader remit. It doesn't work. That's how companies fail. So, titles matter. But the reason that failure occurs at any line, whether it's a first line, a midline, a geo, or a CRO, they start to chase the number. The first thing they do. They don't baseline their team. Okay, so that's the first miss. It's harder as you get bigger, but— and it takes longer as you're in this, you know, you come up to the CRO role, doing it takes longer and you still have to execute. But guess what? Whatever you've inherited has already been executing. It's not going to get worse. So, you better, instead of jumping in and thinking you know what to do before you've baselined and unpacked Everything that wraps around the sales process. Okay, we avoid it. Young sales leaders avoid the sales process. It's the only fixed mechanism that you can maneuver within to change the way your teams perform and the way your supporting functions help you, because that is a— it's a mechanism for measurement of objective Progression of sales, right? So 2 things. One, the remit matters. 2, baselining your team, whether it's a first line, midline, geo, or CRO. 3, understanding your market deftly, because if you're changing roles, sometimes CRO to CRO, you're changing markets. And the selling cycle, whether it be enterprise or velocity, regardless of the market, Somewhat changes. The buying persona changes. So, it's all dependent on you coming into the role and understanding what you're inheriting before you start to think you can go get it done by going really fast because you can never recover once you start. To me, that's the basics. But the problem is it's not always the person that's hired. It's Many times, it's the organization not structuring itself or giving the autonomy for the collective teams to organize themselves in a way to be efficient. And in our world, like, so SaaS tech as an example, I talk with companies all the time that they hire CROs in or executives in to do a job, and it's a fixed They don't allow them to do anything or make any changes. So therefore they get disenchanted and, oh no, we've always done it this way. Just go make the number. Well, well, no, it doesn't work like that. I have to make sure at the ground level, my leader and their team of 7, as an example, whatever the ratio is in, in an enterprise seller, I have to make sure at least 6, 5 to 6 of those people Have everything they need to make their number without pointing fingers at other orgs or complaining to their line leader. And in every organization, inherently, it is a finger-pointing contest because nobody wants to admit that things are broken. So the ultimate gift with maturity as a CRO is you can come in and without coming in as a panicked CRO getting a big job, you can sit back You can look around and travel and watch and listen and be complimentary and supportive before you make any changes. And that takes a solid quarter or 2. And that's what it takes. Now, at the line level, you got to act a little quicker, but you still have to baseline your team. You still have to call your RevOps person. You still have to call your legal support. You still have to call your HR person and get them in your camp. And then you're going to have a shot at building that team to be balanced. So now, on top of all that, can I remove underperformers with grace? Can I coach and develop mid-performers to be A performers? And can I do all of that while making the number and improving performance at the same time? It's complicated, but it requires pragmatic— a pragmatic and defensible approach.

That is fantastic. And that is quite comprehensive in terms of a lens. Let's get tactical for a second and speak to the— we've got a number of first-time, second-time, third-time leaders, right? So people who are either a first-line or a second-line manager. What would be the list? What's the checklist of what you do in the first 90 days to set yourself up For success, for, to get beyond the, you know, 12 to 18 month tenure?

Well, so is it a CRO level? Are you saying?

No, I'm talking about first level and second level sales leaders or CROs of startups and scale-ups, because I was going to say, often they become chief rotating officers because they don't last. Right.

Yeah. Yes. I think it's one of the hardest jobs, Pri. This, the reason is because of all the dynamics underneath that you're not always told when you take the job. So, at the line leader level, you want— the first thing you have to do is earn the trust of your team without question. And if you come in and start commanding or barking orders, you lose them immediately. And, you know, so you have to learn who they are. You have to learn if they're in the right role. You have to learn if they have a core set of skills that are refinable. And you can do that in the first week just by spending time with them and not inspecting, but observing. And you know what good behavior— we all know what good behavior is. It's not very difficult. What we don't want to admit is When bad behavior is present, that it's really hard to fix it. So, we avoid it. And that's the biggest flaw when you start. Your first week is observation, integration, learning the team, and not doing too much, but building a little bit of trust that you're going to help them do better. And by the way, I'm going to help you do better. And if it's not a fit for you, that's okay. We will professionally figure that out. But I don't want you to be scared. I want you to lean forward. And just know that it's a safe environment. And if you're not going to make it, we will have candid conversations about that and there will be no surprises because will override any lack of skill provided you have the right leadership and you give them a chance. But you can't— if you don't give them a chance and earn a little bit of trust and respect, you're done. It won't work. It won't scale. That's when the 18-month cycle, it just keeps going, never ends. It's a never-ending cycle. And that's at the team level. So now think about this. I'm very passionate about descendant views or leadership within a nested hierarchy. CROs should not jump their team to contributors and give them orders. Doesn't work that way. The same way, CROs should never jump their executive team because they immediately— they discredit their executives. So the best practice is stay in your lane and coach in sequence and in hierarchy. And if you don't see the message translating the right way, fix it immediately, and then you'll have everybody's respect. Now then you can collaborate on what the best practice is at each level of leadership. And it's a little bit different, but the scope, the aperture opens up as you come up to the CRO level. You have to be good at all of it. But when you're at the line leader, you got to be good at executing with your team and earning their trust. And then cross-functionally being acceptable. So, you want people helping you. And if you're arrogant, it's not going to work. I used to be that guy. We all had that and we all have it in our careers. I was a tyrant as an individual contributor. I was very difficult. It worked because it was 2000 to 2006 or whatever. And that period of time, you could drive hard and it was okay. Everything wasn't recorded. Everything. Nobody was watching everything. Like, we were all a little— we had a little bit more autonomy. So, so there, the times now that we're in require transparency and discipline, and you can't fake it.

Yeah, that's so well put because I started my career as an account executive, and just like you said, it was all about me. I made club, you know, I was winning. I was scoring. Everyone loved me. But the moment I moved into a first-line manager role, I started realizing that there were far more stakeholders. And then when I got into a second-line manager role, there were even more stakeholders. And now, you have a different perspective because if you don't have the support of the people around you flanking you, you're going to be out. And which is why lone wolves get caught out the higher they rise.

All of the time. And they end up ultimately failing because they think they can solve it on their own at the expense of everybody else. And that's a company culture issue. And every company has them. What you have to learn to do, and this is a skill. So, great friend, David Jenkins coined the phrase, from the field, for the field. So, when you have a lone wolf, pull them into the room, get in their head, and get all of their best practices out of their head, and have them put their hands on the process so that they endorse it. That's how you build scale. You're not going to change them. You better get them in your camp and help them understand, I need you for me to be successful so that we could get your brain And how you run the business into everybody's brain. Now, the way you treat so-and-so on review calls, not acceptable. Change your tone and we'll be fine. And guess what? They do. And then they start helping. But if you let them run, you lose everybody else because everyone backchannels. And we've all been part of the conversations. Oh, so-and-so's an ass, but he gets the biggest accounts. Like, yeah, so-and-so burns through SEs, solution engineers, because he just goes like at a lightning pace and he takes people, takes engineers away from other team members because he's the big guy and gets all the numbers and all the accounts. Not acceptable. So, the other— now we talk about SEs. I would've never survived without a rockstar solutions engineer, a rockstar value consultant, and a rockstar customer success person in my camp making sure what I was doing was serviceable. That's a first-line job. And because in our world, even more so today, you know, you gotta— if you get them, you gotta keep them, the customer. And there's still companies that have no concept how to do that. And they end up slowing down and having a slow decline. And that's when people lose their jobs and companies lose billions in valuation. And it's all about the metric. Back to the RevOps, if you're not focused on your land ARR based on segment, based on team, based on region and geography, you got to understand All of that because land ARR and first time lead time to first value of what you sold them are the 2 first, the 2 indicators of net retention and then lifetime customer value of them continuing to buy. And that experience should be transparent and seamless. And young sellers don't think that way. And there is a little bit of, there is a tiny bit of validity to it only because of the way tech is consumed in a lot of ways today. Some of it doesn't require all of that. But I always say you have to be great in the enterprise first before you could distill the complexity down to very serviceable at scale and at velocity. It's nearly impossible, Priya, it's nearly impossible to go from velocity, if you're only velocity, up to the enterprise without breaking everything. It doesn't work. You lose customers hand over fist because young reps and young leaders and even young executives think that they're just there to sell, and they're not. They're there to create value and lifelong, lifetime customer value and relationships. Serves industry forever, serves us personally forever.

Yes. There's one last question that I wanted to ask you because it's— you've Really articulated this profoundly in terms of the leader, the organization flanking them, and obviously from, you know, the— from the rep to the first line, second line. How do you drive accountability and change in an organization once you have identified the problems? Because one of the number one reasons I see sales leaders failing in that 9 to 18 month mark is that they were not able to make the change. So number one is you don't know what changes to make and you've just gone and fit in and it's business as usual. But more often than not, they see it, but they haven't been able to drive accountability change. Give me what you've got on this.

Well, so I built a company around it, so I can, I can answer this one. When we, when When we started Skilibrum, it was based on coaching to a 4-box skill and will model, skills/abilities and willingness. So, at the most fundamental level, the skills that are required to succeed as a contributor in both sales, sales engineering, and customer success, as an example, they coexist at an intersection that's shared. Can I understand and create a point of view based on what I've learned about a customer before I try to pitch them a product? Can I find, test, and build a champion— find, build, and test a champion that can help me understand the complexity of the business after I've earned their trust by creating a point of view? And then help me align a solution to the problems they're trying to solve. Like those 3 things alone, a salesperson and their leader should have that down cold. A sales engineer and their leader should have that down cold. And that serves a customer success person that receives the deployment with PS of what those 2 folks sold. That makes it serviceable if they're all on what we call the same baseline. So, when we talk about a 4-box and we talk about role-based skills, we have to identify based on the segment and the industry and the geography even in some cases, what are the role-based skills that make this team effective? And that's what you create a baseline of and you coach against those specific skills. And you have to have a baseline that is neutral to the people.

Right.

This is the other miss. Usually, it becomes based on the personality and not based on the skill. So, you baseline to what we call role-based skills that if you stack those skills together, they create proficiency. And that is how you have to measure and model your team weekly, monthly, and quarterly. In a formal way so they know what's expected of them. And then, you rehearse them on those skills. And if they don't do it, they've made the choice to self-select out because they don't have the will to learn. So, you have to come transparent on all of that. And that's how I start now everything we do, whether it's with a CEO or whether it's with a line leader. Whether it's in sales, whether it's in engineering, or whether it's in support, whether it's an SDR or a BDR, it's a baseline of role-based skills that are required to do the job. And if you can do that, you'll win and you'll earn their trust.

Right. So what are the 4 boxes? So I love the skill-will matrix. Give me the 4 boxes.

So low left is low will, low skill. You go to the right, Right? So, we have skill on the bottom, high skill, low will. You go to the high left, high will, low skill. High right, high will, high skill. Okay? Everybody that joins your company, even you as a leader when you join, you come in with high will and low skill. You don't know the company. You have to learn it. If you think you come in knowing, you've failed already. Everybody that joins a company has no knowledge of the inner working dynamics of that company. And if a company can understand that at the executive level, the way they onboard people and train them and put them in a sales process playbook and then coach them to make them successful becomes seamless. But it's hard and it takes time. And most companies, when they're designed and their models are put out, they're not co-designed with the CFO and the CRO. So they're behind the 8-ball. And they're not going to admit it. It's a hard conversation. It's true almost everywhere. Unless you get to build it with the CFO, you're going to inherit problems. And it's very difficult. So, you have to work really hard to then build that foundation and then bring on a journey your org first, and then potentially sell that concept to other orgs. And the best indicator of a CRO's ability to scale is internal selling. Can they bring everybody on a journey with them to change how revenue is generated in that company? And it's a hard job, but it's— you can't do it alone. You got to do it with your teams. It's textbook.

Yeah. So one more question for the leader who is in the first 90 days. I really like your model. I would assume that it would be an absolute mandatory for them to actually rate their team on that skill-will matrix to decide who do they invest in, who do they empower, who do they part ways with. I mean, what would you say? How do you use that to really set yourself up for success?

Yeah, there's no doubt. So, you have to define the skills. So, you can do something very, very simple. It can be, we'll say the biggest anchor, I think, in enterprise selling, you have to be able to have a first, you have to go build pipeline first of all. So can you even write an executive level communication and can that executive level communication get you a meeting? And if that's the case and it can, you have that skill. Now, you have to then execute that skill in the meeting. Can I show up by doing deep research? The deep research is so easy today, free, it's handed to us. So it is terrible. I watch it all the time. So you have to get the meetings, then you have to show up and execute the meetings. Did I prepare for that meeting? Did I create a personalized point of view? Did I align all of that based on my deep research about that company and that executive? And their business and how I can help them? And then can I deliver that first meeting in a way that gets me the second meeting? So, and all that is, is deep research, creating a point of view, and then showing up and controlling a meeting. That's all a seller has to do. That's literally all they have to do. They show up and guess what they're given? A pitch deck and discovery questions. And And the companies set them up for failure. That's the worst thing you can do in a meeting. You or I might be able to pull it off because we've been doing it our whole career. But most companies hire inexperienced, young, hungry reps, and they do them a disservice by not training them and not onboarding them and not giving them role-based skills proficiency in the most fundamental way. And it's over if that doesn't happen. So, I would do those things first as a line leader to know who I had on my team of 7, 5 to 7, and then talk about it and learn and share, hey, listen, how can we do this better? I watched one— look, Ken Schock is another friend and I coach him, he coaches me, and we collaborate. He is running sales at a— I won't name it. It doesn't matter. I won't name the company. His approach is textbook professional executive CRO. He knows all of his executives, peer executives cold. Every leader in the room, no slides. Let's get to know each other. Help me understand. Let me show you a better way. Show me how you would do it. Like this guy and his team, they're so integrated that they come to him with everything. So he knows where he has the truth. At every point in every step of the process, whereas if you don't do it that way, you you get opaque and you don't get objectivity, and therefore you can't project the business to your leadership team, your executives. So it's it's it's a it takes a while to be able to do it. But if I could teach young sellers and young leaders, and we do, we help, we coach, we do coaching. But but if I could bring anything to them. It's how to build empathy and build resilient teams that can scale within a company. Because usually, you get 1 or 2 people making the number, and then they just turn over the rest of them constantly. And you can't succeed doing that.

Very true. Bart, thank you so much. This has been an absolute masterclass.

It's not over, is it? If there's more and you want to go into any other Any one of these and deep. So, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll leave us with this. The more scar tissue we have in this industry and the more coachable we are, the better our elasticity is from CEO to contributor.

Oh, wow.

So we can provide advice, coaching, counsel, and defensible next best actions at every level. And that takes time, and you have to be coachable to build all of that into your DNA as a young leader and a young seller. And that you'll make millions every year if you can do that, if you learn to do that. That's the closing. That's our closing statement. What I'll tell you, and I'll leave it, if you can invite me back anytime, I thrive. I love this stuff. It is a passion for me now. And I am in a sweet spot of my life. The next 5 to 7 years doing this and scaling a company and collaborating with other professionals. It's time to give back and help others do the same thing.

Thank you so much. But you have a way of being strategic and tactical, which I think for my whole audience is going to take so much away from this because it has something for everyone at every stage of their career. So, thank you so much. I could have talked to you for hours, but I appreciate what you've done and we will do that again. But thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you. I'm honored to be here and sharing. Thank you very much for that. I appreciate the forum.

So grateful.