How Tom Frazier is Fixing the Massive Sustainability Problems with Data Centers

Hi, I'm Tom, and I beat the often path by living my life around a very basic idea that I don't know where I'm going to end up, but I'm very excited about the journey. And that has taken me on a wonderful, thrilling roller coaster of highs and lows that has led me to starting my data center company, Redivider.

Tom Frazier is the co-founder and CEO of Redivider, a company that is making sustainable and responsible edge computing. But first, what is edge computing? You might not realize it, but every Every single device that you use and every single platform you interact with is storing massive amounts of your data somewhere. And the farther away from you physically these data centers are, the more inefficient and unsustainable they become. Edge computing is the idea that we should keep the source of our data closer to where we're physically located, which is no easy task. In theory, this could help us be more sustainable, more efficient, and more secure in a world where our data is just floating around everywhere and can easily fall into the wrong hands. Now, this is one of those subjects that is extremely timely, especially as we march headfirst into a future that seems to be entirely digital. Redivider builds modular, smaller facilities for edge computing in diverse locations, which enables faster data processing and increased capacity. They're also focused on improving sustainability because their modular solutions are hydrogen-powered. This episode falls into the category of something that humanity desperately needs right now, but we don't necessarily know that we do. And that's why I'm so excited to share this conversation with you. So here's Tom Frazier. I'm Ross Palmer, and this is Beat the Offenpath. Well, that's a fantastic start right there, Tom. Thanks for joining me. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Excited to be here.

Well, I've got a question for you. So I've got in my hand a device that people may know. This is a— it's called an iPhone. For those who have never seen one before, it's this newfangled thing. Now, this thing is completely silent. I'm in a room with it. It's not making any noise. It doesn't smell particularly bad. It doesn't seem to be harming me in any way. And when I post 80 times on TikTok per day. It all feels very effortless and light. So what possible consequence could there be that I'm not aware of?

That is an incredible question to start with. You know, so just to describe a little bit about what happens behind the scenes, right? Your phone talks to another computer that you think of as a network in your house that's connected over a cable that ends up going to some server somewhere in the world and then returns stuff back to your phone in, in reverse. Now that process has a number of consequences that most people don't think about, and the one that I want to share that I find the most alarming is the sustainability footprint of that interaction. Again, not to put it on TikTok, it's true of any sort of interaction you might have, whether it be email or watching YouTube or this, but let's be honest, or just making this happen, right?

Riverside, Zoom, you name it.

Yeah, all the things. Um, but the, the sustainability footprint of that is the data center industry loves to replicate data, right? Because you have to be resilient to make sure customers get what they want. So there are copies on copies on copies of things, which when you think about the power required to run those servers, the carbon embodied carbon to create a data center, all of the carbon that goes in every fiber optic cable, every copper cable. The, the carbon footprint of data that we have is increasing at an alarming rate, an absolutely staggering number. And when you also couple that with the fact that the data growth is about 5 times, uh, over the next 5 years, so it, it just presents this sustainability problem that people aren't really aware of. And that's something that I think, as a society, we need to be more conscious of. And I really think the world has a decision to make. And just to use your TikTok example, do you want to keep using TikTok and turn on coal power plants, turn them back on and run dirty stuff into the air? Or do you want to change your consumption and reduce your, your consumption or reduce your expectations? And I think we have our answer. You know, we want to use social media and we're going to continue technology to the core of who we are as a society at all costs. And that means to the detriment of the planet.

I think we live in an interesting time where, like the black box phenomenon, and I think that's something that especially the younger generations, as we both talked about, we both have kids who are growing up or beyond the Gen Z, but the next following generation. I think that the black box generations are coming in the sense that we're going to see a whole lot of people who have mastery of how to interact with the black box, whether that's the performance of how do you manipulate the TikTok algorithm? How do you manipulate the YouTube algorithm? We're gonna have a generation of people who are experts at dealing with the box itself, but a generation of people who are completely detached from what is happening behind that box, inside that box, and how that box is being made. You have tons of people who are absolute wizards with using TikTok and social media who don't have the faintest idea how to write a single line of code or the kind of code architecture that makes up all of these tools that we use every day. And I think our society is set up in such a way that we are deliberately separated from many aspects of how our society is run. Data centers being this one gigantic thing that basically has no presence in all of our day-to-day lives and yet powers literally everything. And on the basis of that, that's why I'm so excited to talk to you about this because I wanted to learn more about what's going on here and how you see it from the inside.

Yeah. I mean, I— so to give by way of background, I, I, I was in my first data center in 1995 and I've been involved ever since. So I've been around the block for a while and I've seen it go through multiple generations and the place that we're going to— uh, sorry, let me, let me back up. The way it has worked to date is you have a huge data center somewhere connected to a really big internet pipe connected to a downtown office building, right? And that's kind of how the world has worked for the past 10, 15 years. Since everyone started working from home, uh, you know during this worldwide kind of drama, what we've seen is there's a fundamental shift in how that works because now the computing power needs to be near your house instead of near your office. The locations of computation and data storage is just going into more and more places. So it's becoming very decentralized. And that's something that, again, when you consider the sustainability footprint of that, you look at the social impact of that, when you look at the growth of the technologies we all depend on to not require people to learn how to code, right? AI is going to help you do that. Or how the financial systems of the world are different today because of blockchain and Bitcoin and all the other kind of fundamental things. And, you know, there's 100 of those examples, IoT for manufacturing, dot, dot, dot. Those things are fundamentally shifting how we work to not require so much brainpower from the person, which in a way is liberating, right? As an entrepreneur, like, the creative side gets unlocked because you're not burdened by the administration of business, right? Oh, I don't need to code. Yeah, but that's true. But that means we're more reliant on the technology, and that means that the data center problem gets bigger and bigger by the minute. Yep.

And I think we, and I'm not casting any blame on anybody else, basically squarely at myself. We and people such as myself, we live our lives in such a way. For example, somebody like me, particular brand of hypocrite, championing eco-friendly causes and is on digital social media. My face is everywhere. I've got a YouTube channel. I've got an Instagram channel. I'm on LinkedIn all the time. I am a digital nomad. I have a digital marketing agency. I am on my computer 14 hours a day and all of the stuff that I make is digital. It's all on some server somewhere. So while I am broadly speaking an advocate for eco-friendly and sustainable and climate-friendly solutions, my own footprint by virtue of my profession, what I do is massive. And of course, part of this is trying to square— part of me doing talks like this is trying to square what I do, what all of us do with Is there a better way? Is this a foregone conclusion? Is there anything that we can do to make this aspect of our lives better, or is this something that is just going to get worse and worse and worse over the next 10, 15, 30, 100 years?

I'm an optimist, so I wouldn't say worse is the right word to describe what it's going to be. We need new solutions. We need significantly more R&D into how we do things as opposed to the doom and gloom of, oh, it's all over and the world is bad. So, from a consumer perspective or like a user, like you mentioned, you're on all these platforms doing all these things. I don't think it should be your responsibility. I think you're being offered services, you're taking advantages of those services. Taking advantage of those services. The people behind that, behind that black box, those like me— I'm inside that black box, right? We need to have solutions that are going to be more compelling for you as a consumer, for you as a citizen, for you as a human being, you know, for the planet that we all, uh, live on and require sustenance from. And that's where it's at today. You know, I think this tipping point has occurred where my entire industry and that of the power industry, they're very analogous. There are significant shifts that are going to take place in the next 10 to 20 years because the pressure for sustainability, the awareness of the problem is so high in governments and Fortune 500s and everyday life that if we don't come up with better solutions, people are going to start asking questions. And I think a great analogy for that is you hear about Bitcoin mining in the news.

Yeah.

Oh, it's terrible for the environment and all this kind of stuff, right? Well, it's actually just a data center when you, when you get to what it is. And it's, it's the canary in the coal mine for the entire industry. So I think there's meaningful change on the horizon. I hope to be a part of that. Um, but, but it is a big issue for sure.

Apt analogy referencing coal mine and light. That's a great tie-in if that was delivered. So, all right. There are a couple of different aspects that we can jump in here. One is what is edge computing, which I think you've sort of generally described a little bit briefly previously. And the other is how can we make data centers more sustainable? So what of those is the most interesting part for you since you kind of do both, right?

Well, I mean, I'm excited about the idea of edge computing because we've talked about it as an industry for 20+ years, right? There's this graveyard of companies that have tried to do it before us and it never worked because there wasn't a problem to solve. Like it didn't solve a major problem, right? Big downtown office building, big data center. It just, it worked. Now, edge is a requirement. Like, it's not even an optional thing anymore. Uh, and I'll give a few examples of why I'm excited. If you think about the way a city has typically worked, its fundamental lifeblood was power, right? Power was routed everywhere, water was routed everywhere. Then the internet came along, data got routed everywhere, but they were kind of rudimentary ideas. And we're now hitting the sophistication of, all right, we're putting more people into these city centers and everything has sensors now. The number of cell phones per square foot is like crazy. So these cities around the world are all leveraging computer vision with cameras on top of every intersection to ease traffic congestion. And where do we put population centers and how can we increase foot traffic in this area so our small businesses, which are the backbone of America, can survive? All of that requires data, and not every group of citizens wants their data going overseas or going into the black box. They want to know that, hey, the traffic cameras that showcase my car, you can use that data, but I want it to stay in town. I want it to be somewhere that I know where it is. And so there's 100 use cases like that for edge computing. That finally can be unlocked because edge is now part of this fabric of the internet. So that's what I'm most excited about. But when you think about expanding the capabilities of technology, the idea that we discussed before of like, well, we have to do a better job with our offerings, sustainability has to be a part of that. Social impact has to be a part of that. And I'll give one example on that side too, which is, traditional data center, they'll work out some deal with a city or a town or a state to get the right tax breaks, and they go put a million-square-foot facility somewhere. Now, that facility is built by a national contractor for the most part, and then the jobs for that data center are then put into Silicon Valley. So you have this massive building that has done very little for the economy of that city or town.

Sure.

And that model just doesn't make sense to me as a human being, right? The economic term is called chained GDP, where dollars are created locally and they're consumed locally. And every— all the studies have shown, like, the more that you're creating prosperity in a community, education improves, health improves, wealth improves, you know, like the happiness factor of life is higher. And so we just think that the idea of our entire industry not prioritizing social impact is an opportunity. You know, it's an opportunity to build a new layer of the internet with edge computing and do so in a way that benefits the communities as a stakeholder.

So, you're kind of touching on 3 separate things, data security, boosting of local communities, and of course, sustainability of these things as well, all of which are very important and sound very cool. So, let's rewind a little bit. How did you get into this? Why did you start a business? Did you always know you were gonna start a business? Were you always entrepreneurial, or what was the origin story of this?

Yeah, so I have a very atypical career path, and I, you know—

That's why we're here.

I think that's a good thing. But no, I became faculty staff at the age of 18 in my university. So, that was weird. But beautiful.

Did you graduate early or how did that end up happening?

No, I was there for my first year of college and got hired as faculty staff right after my first year. And that was right when the internet was being born. This is '95. 2005. So, the internet was just kind of being born. And anyway, so I spent a huge portion of my career in data centers and computer security and all this stuff. And I was living in Australia, working for a super, super large company, had a massive Asia-Pacific job. And I remember the thought very clearly in my head. I climbed to the, relatively to the top of the corporate ladder. And I thought, I've climbed the wrong ladder. I really don't like this. You know, like the, the idea that there's no creativity or innovation kind of allowed at the big companies, because it makes sense, right? They're, if they're huge, they want to get slightly bigger, but they don't want to get smaller. And it's not about creativity. It's about scale. Uh, so I quit and I started my first company, uh, in Australia, and then I started another one and ended up running an incubator, creating companies. And, you know, to date, I've been an investor, shareholder, advisor, or some capacity for about 70 startups.

And out of here.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I always like to say I'm Alfred and I have a Batman factory, right? I help take a, you know, somebody who's a founder and turn them into a CEO, right? Because usually founders are aware of their problem domain, right? For me, it's technology, but for someone else, it might be dog grooming, but they want to be an entrepreneur and start a dog grooming business. They probably don't have the skills for all of that stuff, or they're in agriculture, right? What doesn't matter? So, I love it. I love the entrepreneurial journey. I love the creativity that humanity has. And empowering that in a way that delivers value. And starting reDivider was this moment of, this is a huge, huge problem, and it's not one that— it's not one that I want to be a part of. It's one that I want to really take and do myself. And so myself and 3 other guys all got together and started this. This ridiculous idea. I mean, a data center startup doesn't really exist. It's like an oxymoron because the capital requirements for data centers are ridiculous. So, that's kind of where we got going from. And in that journey—

Oh, yeah, go ahead.

I was going to say, on that journey, what we decided on was to really focus on these things called opportunity zones. In the United States. These are areas that are somewhat economically depressed. And in order to do that, we had to actually start a fund, an investment fund, because to be an Opportunity Zone business, you have to get invested from an investment fund that's got its special designation. So our path to start a data center actually had to start an investment fund that then started a data center company.

Get out of here. That's incredible. So that— I was going to ask to that end, where did you begin on this remarkable journey? So you started a fund first. What year did you start that fund?

2020. We started the fund and the business in the same year, 2021.

Okay. And you felt that— so was it sequential in the sense that were you able to work side by side or was it, oh no, we have to do the fund first and then the result of that is that we can actually start this other thing in earnest.

Uh, no, we had to do the fund first. Um, the, just to do the qualifications of the program, uh, the Opportunity Zone program, we had to do the fund first. So, uh, we actually hired the guy from, uh, the federal government that created that program under Trump. We hired him to help us design how all this stuff would work. So we, we, we knew we had the right people on the team. You know, that's been the mantra all along is surround yourself with greatness, you know? And so we brought along a lot of people that are titans in their own industries to help us along the way. But we did have to do the fund first and then the fund invested in the business so the business could kick off.

So what is the CapEx cost? What is the cost to make some kind of dent in this industry? How much do you need to build a data center or to even begin thinking about reimagining this problem?

It's a lot of money. I mean, the, the, the old way of doing it would be you create a million square foot facility and it takes you 2.5 years, and that might be, I don't know, north of $1 billion for one of those type of facilities.

Okay.

So these are very big numbers. The way we're doing it is very, very different. In the sense that the unit economics can remain roughly the same, but you're producing them in a factory. And so you kind of get value engineering over time that'll reduce that cost, but you're also turning on capacity incrementally really quickly. So our goal— so today, like, a huge facility might take 2 years to, to turn on. Our goal, and we're not there yet, but our goal is to go from dirt to data center in 30 days.

Dang. Okay.

So, we think that's a step change in bringing capacity online. By the way, today, the total availability globally is sub-2%, meaning every data center slot for a computer is sold out 5 years into the future before it's even built. Like that's how in demand this industry is. Wow.

So you had a pretty good sense that you were going down the right path. You had a— yeah, you knew that the demand was there before you ever began, so that must have been encouraging at least.

Yeah. And this is before the kind of AI boom of last year, which has accelerated that tenfold. Like, it's, it's crazy. So, you know, we, we think that The, the idea is by making them in a factory, just like you make a car, you have an assembly line, you're spitting out the same unit because you're designing the same kind of box is a way to think of it. You can assess the carbon footprint of everything that goes in it, every cable, every little detail. We can now have this carbon footprint well understood before it even turns on, right? And, and usually that happens after the fact, right? So you spend, spend 2 years building this thing, and then you try to figure out what its sustainability issues are. And we're designing that in from the ground up.

So part of the insights, or one of the key insights you have, is it's a modular approach, right? So it's some— and that's part of— you're building this box. So what steps did you take to really to reevaluate or to change the way you think about all of the various components that go into your box, especially from a sustainability point of view?

I mean, that has been the last several years of my life, this question. Right. You know, what is it? How does it work? How do you do it differently? And I don't want to bore everybody with all the details, but I'll give one as an example. Usually data centers, they— the first thing that happens is they go and pour a huge concrete slab, right? And concrete has to cure, and that takes minimum 45 days. And then you've got to get permits after permit to, you know, do pre-inspection and post-inspection. So the timeline just to do the concrete could be 3 months. And we said, well, that's kind of silly. Let's look at other options. And we found installation options that are essentially— think of a screw, like a drywall screw or something, but imagine it being 6 or 8 feet tall.

Okay.

Well, now you can drill those into the ground with one person with a kind of handheld machine. Okay. You can put 12 or 16 of them in the ground and put our data center on that. It has the same structural load rating as concrete. Concrete. It has permitting that is in every jurisdiction in the United States. And so, we can remove 45 days in the— or 90 days in the time to put a data center just by removing concrete. Now, that style of thinking when applied to every aspect of a data center is what we think we've built.

That's amazing. And one of those things few people understand is the amount of demand. Well, first of all, how bad cement is, but also the amount of demand globally for cement. Cement being measured in the billions of tons per year in terms of our need. And it's also one of the most harmful and destructive forces in humanity right now. So the ability to remove cement from anything is a huge positive thing.

Well, yeah, I mean, so I was speaking at it from the perspective of designing—

time—

part of the design process, right? But on the sustainability side, you're absolutely right. One of the biggest embodied emissions in any sort of building is the concrete. And so by removing the concrete, you get this massive sustainability bump as well.

Fantastic. So you remove the timescale, you're able to be more sustainable. So who then Who are your customers, or who did you seek out? Who are your early partners that you're trying to sell this to?

So we're not trying to, we're not trying to upend the industry, right? There's always going to be a need for large facilities, right? Period. This is, we think edge is like a layer on top of that. And so the customer demographic for edge is the market we are attracted to is anything that's like a specialty computing, right? Because those needs are new, they're kind of expansion capacity of an IT department. But niching that down even further is we want to do that with companies who have a publicly stated sustainability mandate at their board. Because now we are aligning— the IT department is often seen as a cost, and the board is trying to run a business that generates return for its shareholders, right? So we think by having a high sustainability approach to data centers, we have this kind of transparency about the whole thing that would benefit the board and their mission, but at the same time fulfills the needs of these projects in the IT department. So that's really the the sweet spot for us. And over time, as we get hundreds of facilities online or thousands of facilities online, at that point, we really think the hyperscalers, they call them, which are the cloud providers, you know, at that point, we think all of those guys would want to have a slice of 1,000 facilities. They wouldn't necessarily want a whole one of our facilities. They'd want part of a lot of them.

Right. That, that makes so much sense.

All right.

Let's get into the, uh, the localization of data, the data security, data privacy thing, because this is another question that's very much a hot topic in the world right now, especially, you know, going back to the beginning, citing apps like TikTok, people are wondering what's happening. Where is your data exactly being passed? Is it going through China? And what are the rules over there in China? We're, we're definitely very curious what's going on with our data. And I've heard it said by people much smarter than me. That localizing our data is a very important thing if we want to have any semblance of personal data privacy. And especially as the IoT, the Internet of Things, creeps into our lives more and more, all of these data-capturing devices are in your home, they're around your home, all these things are uploading continuously, cameras, smart speakers, phones, computers. The amount of ways that we're being monitored and captured in terms of data in our home and everywhere else we go is extreme. I think places like the EU seem to want to be more on top of trying to regulate what happens with this. But people who are smarter than me have said that edge computing and having localized some kind of— I think one person even referred to it as a data guardian, a local data guardian or something like that, that you can capture more of your data and manage more of your data at a local level is one of the only conceivable things to combat that proliferation of our data going everywhere. So how do you see it in terms of security, and does any of what I said, uh, ring true to you?

Man, you're opening a big can of worm questions over here. This is great. Um, so, you know, security is an area that I have a particular interest in. Uh, I've spent more than a decade of my life doing security for some of the most critical assets on the planet. Uh, I love the idea of security and, and the frontiers that it takes us in. The issue we have as a society is we're valuing convenience over our information security. And that's been true for a very long time because the, the free version of the internet, so to speak, is advertising to you. And so what happens by way of example is there are published laws for truth in advertising, that means you have to— the advertisers have to get data that says someone saw their ad. Well, those people then use data brokers to sell that information without your PII, your personally identifiable information. But when you marry up enough datasets on top of each other, you don't need the PII. Like, I can I can tell you with very high certainty, I could describe everything that is going on in your house, not knowing where you live just by this podcast, right? There are entire companies out there that do that. So it's a huge problem basically. And unfortunately, I don't think there is a, a solution for the average person. It just, the only solution is we need to stop using products that are free. Yeah. And I just don't see that happening. Right. You're going to use Gmail because it's awesome. And it's free. You're going to use Facebook because it's free. You're going to use TikTok because it's free. Uh, if you paid a dollar a month to all of these services, this problem would completely go away, but people aren't willing to do that.

I know that's, that's such a frustrating thing. Even with Facebook, I identified that over a decade ago that we should just pay for this. I would have much rather spent $5 a month for Facebook than let it become what it ultimately became. I think when you're trying to save so much money, and a lot of people don't have money also, students or people who are just starting out in life, they don't have money and even a Netflix subscription seems like a lot when you're questioning that. And these things do tend to add up. So I don't want to disparage that. But on the other hand, we've seen the consequence of assuming that things are free. And then of course the old saying is that you are the product if you're not paying for the product. And I think one thing that I've learned from these discussions and from my own explorations is that the amount of data that's captured on each of us is wildly more than any individual suspects. And the ways that data is being captured on us is wildly more invasive and intense than the average person suspects. I mean, satellites are orbiting the Earth right now that are thermal imaging. They can see whether I'm in my house. They can see whether a person is in my house through the roof. By thermal imaging. That's the kind of granularity, and that's a zone that people don't even realize how you're being looked at and the ways that that data is being analyzed. It's truly crazy.

And you don't even need satellites. And I'll tell you, I won't, I won't tell you the company, but I've seen with my own eyes this thing they call the cheater map. And basically, because your phone has ads on a bunch of these apps, and those apps require that whole story I gave before, they can say, show me houses where a phone is owned by a man, where the phone goes to that house, you know, 3+ nights a week at night. And then show me another one for a woman. And then show me anyone else who has a phone that doesn't live in that house. And now show me that, that third phone with the man's phone at any location that's a hotel. Right, right. All of that has existed for a decade, right? Because you allow free service, you use free services. I mean, that's fundamentally the issue. So, but to answer your question about edge and where data security comes in on that side, the way we're looking at that is, again, these are new use cases. This is like that specialty computing idea where cities or governments or companies can make better decisions going forward, uh, about the services that they offer. And that's important, right? The data sovereignty is important. Are we going to help solve where, you know, any insight to where data goes for something like TikTok? No, that's up to TikTok to decide. And you should stop using it if you have that concern, you know, period, full stop. Uh, my guess is you want to use it more than you care, and that's why we're where we are today. But very cool. It's, it's, uh, the idea of edge computing offers new opportunity to have that data security that doesn't exist today. Like when you put all your stuff into these free things, they all consolidate into Amazon or Microsoft or, right. You know, whatever. And they do, they have the best systems. They're incredible. Like the sophistication of these cloud providers is, is just unbelievable. But at the end of the day, they become bigger and bigger targets because you could put the same energy and get a massive pool of data. And so the idea of edge, it's very localized. So unless someone wants to attack your thing, it's probably better off than what you have today.

That makes sense. So for you personally, I don't want to say sat on the sidelines because that's not quite true, but having grown 70 other companies and been the Albert to numerous Batmans, let's say, how does it feel now that you're a couple of years into your own endeavor? Does it feel fundamentally different than what you're doing? Are you more optimistic now that you've begun? Does it feel more challenging than you thought it would be? Do you feel comfortable and good about knowing that you're working on a truly massive problem?

I love working on massive problems, so the problem doesn't scare me. I love being a dad, and that definitely played into— so my oldest is 8 years old, and that played into kind of the mindset shift for me. After she was maybe 2 years old, I'm kind of like, All right, well, one, what's my legacy for my kids? You know, you start thinking all these kind of philosophical questions. And then I'm like, well, what am I going to leave my kids, right? In terms of, I see the way the planet is going and all these things, and we're going to be more reliant on technology. And I just don't see us delivering on the other part of that, the sustainability part, and leave the planet better than when you found it. So that's all what led me to, to doing this. And the fact that it's a huge problem is attractive to me because that means if I'm successful, I, I have a big change that occurs. Uh, being the founder this time around— I've been a founder before several different times. Um, this one is different because it's, uh, also rare to have a startup that its capital requirements are so high. Right. So the path has been less straightforward, you know, instead of like, oh, build a, build a minimum viable product and then go get some customers and do that. Like, well, all that's still true, but the timescale for the MVP is 3 years. Right. And then the, you know, it's just a totally different, um, way to measure, uh, which has been exciting and fun and frustrating and, uh, You know, all the things. But the, the great part is when people really resonate with the problem that we're solving, they really resonate with the solution that we've created. And that's allowed us to attract a lot of people at a very high level in a way that I couldn't have dreamed of.

Well, I know what I'm going to leave my daughter, a mountain of debt.

That's it.

That's the only thing. That's all I'm going to do.

Yeah.

And maybe some burnt ashes where a house used to stand. No, it's just, you're on your own, kid. That's incredible, man. What a fascinating story. Very noble idea. Clearly, you're in the heart of it. And that's why I was just so excited to talk with you, because few people are more at the center of what our modern world is all about. And again, whether they realize it or not, that's why I saw it. Oh, wow. Like, this guy, he's right at the heart of arguably the most important issues to our society right now and in the foreseeable future. So it's super cool to see how your journey has, how you've gotten here and where your head's at and why you're doing it. And it seems like you're doing everything for all the right reasons. So what a fascinating and inspiring story. I can't thank you enough for sharing your wisdom with me and with us.

Yeah, I mean, like you said, to most people it's a black box. So I love what I do. I love my, my kind of process and what we're trying to achieve. But, uh, to most people, I don't know if it's as interesting for everybody else, right? Because they just want, they want the other end of their black box to work.

They just want this to work. And when it cuts out when you're recording, you're angry at the technology gods.

Yeah.

Why, why didn't you do your job? But that's part of what we do is we, I like to inspire people and I like to educate people. And if you can do both at the same time, I think that's an extra win. And I think people do need to become more literate about these types of issues, whether they think that they need to or not, it affects all of us. And these types of issues, as you said in the beginning, are only going to grow. There's no sign of slowing down, let alone stopping. There's no sign of a reduction of any of the stuff that you're working on for decades to come, all of the stuff that we're building just further builds on these models and data centers that we have got going. So I think it's vitally important whether people know that they should be interested in it or not.

Yeah, I agree. And the idea that people can leverage technology to make their life better is awesome. Like, there's a reason we don't live in caves anymore, right? Because it's better to live in a house with a heater and air conditioning. You know, the phase that we're in now is this, this, uh, data growth phase and AI and computation and, and how all that can benefit us in new ways. And it just unlocks this creative freedom that I'm excited about. So, you know, being the, the infrastructure behind that is super exciting to me. Uh, and hopefully, whether you care about what I do or not, hopefully you're a recipient of some of that benefit.

Yeah, that's— I have no doubt that we all will be. And I also have no doubt that you're poised to do some truly mind-blowing things in the next 5 or 10 years. I can't wait until you get those— what did you call them— the hypergrowth clients, or you'll tap into that vein in due time, I'm sure. And that's very exciting.

Yeah, I mean, there's just no— there's no capacity anywhere in the world The demand is higher than it's ever been. The construction workforce is getting older by the minute. You know, like there's no new construction workers. So the timetable to get new capacity online is pushing out. All the power to run these facilities is measured in decades, not days. So, you know, we're going to be in for a weird moment. And I really think that just going back to the top of the podcast, Do you want to keep using TikTok and turn on coal power plants, or are you going to change your behavior to save the planet? Like, I think that's the most interesting question to ponder with your friends on a Friday night and have a discussion about it. And my gut says, after having this conversation with probably 1,000 people, almost every single one of them would say, I'm going to use social media and let the coal plants turn back on. And that's not good.

That doesn't seem to be the trend. Yeah. Well, you know, you and I are in similar industries in that way. There's extreme demand for data centers and like you said, it's years out. Well, what I do, there's extreme demand for podcasts. The one thing that most people say is there just aren't enough podcasts out there. Everybody needs more content. That's what I've noticed. So basically your mission and mine are more or less the same. I see us as essentially equals in that regard.

I would agree actually, because the volume of content, there's so much bad content out there, but the volume of amazing content that's thought-provoking is still pretty small. I agree. I think we, again, I was so excited to come on and do this with you because like great content is, transformative, you know.

Well, your optimism and the way you see the world is infectious, and, uh, I appreciate your thoughts very much. So it's an absolute pleasure to get to know you, Tom, and I look forward to monitoring your progress and staying connected. Um, before we part ways, I'd like a couple of things. Uh, first of all, do you have any general parting words either for entrepreneurs or people who want to make a difference? And then, of course, where can people find you and support your work and learn more about what you're up to?

Yeah. I mean, I think my parting words would be, you know, if you can bring some awareness into your life about the things that are used that are free, you know, for data security or, you know, even if you want to go down the entrepreneurial path and start something, just make sure it's valuable. You know, don't create a company that makes bent forks. Right? No one, no one will find value in that. Uh, so, all right, scratch out.

Nevermore, Ben. I was going to pitch you right after that. I was like, the end of this, I was just buttering you up.

Idea 37 is off the list. Uh, no, like just create value for the world and, and, uh, do it in a way that makes you happy. I mean, cause at the end of the day, like my, my whole world revolves around happiness. You know, I, it just, if you aren't doing something that makes you happy, why are you doing it? Like if there's a means to an end, great. But if it just, it sucks. Just stop doing those things. So, those would be my parting words. Be happy. I even have it as a tattoo on my hand.

Oh, there you go.

Yes. I live my life this way.

Very good.

But, yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn or Tom Frazier on LinkedIn. You can go to our website, learn more about Redivider at redivider.co. Um, yeah, that's about it.

All right, well then, that's about it from my end as well. Thanks again, Tom. Absolute pleasure to have you on here. Uh, great stuff. And with that, the official podcast is over.