A Plate of Shame

As we were paying the bill, a lady came over and got very close to my husband's face and said, I just want you to know that your children have ruined my dinner and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

I'm Dr. Becky and this is good. Inside.

Let's talk about one of the most adventurous things a parent can do.

Go to a restaurant with young children.

I've been there. I'm guessing a lot of you have been there and it is an experience.

Full of anxiety, fear and hyper attunement to what others around you might be thinking of you or how they might be judging your parenting. Well, today on the podcast, I'm talking to a mom who braved the public restaurant expedition and it didn't go so well. This is something I know everyone will be able to relate to.

I hear there was a little situation with you and your kids at a restaurant and I'd love to hear about it.

Yes. So we have a five year old and a four year old daughter, had a full day of school, went to ballet class and we decided to pop across the street for some dinner. And the kids were sitting together along a bench around the outside of the restaurant and my husband and I were sitting across from them in chairs. They were getting at each other as they do when they get tired and had to go to the bathroom so many times. We took them for walks several times to try to keep them entertained. They had markers, they had crayons. I had everything I could think of to keep them calm. They were reaching for these ornaments that were above their heads. And my husband and I were just like, we're doing our best. We're just going to get this sushi in and then we're going to go home. And as we were paying the bill, a lady came over and got very close to my husband's face and said, I just want you to know that your children have ruined my dinner and, and you should be ashamed of yourselves. I have to take a deep breath now. Even saying it, the people pleaser in me just totally clenched up. I felt terrible, my kids felt confused and my husband goes into defense of us and I just feel it's worth mentioning. She then continues on to the hostess stand to ask why she can't be served more wine, which made me feel a little better because seemed like we were sort of just next in line for receiving.

So first of all, I just have flashbacks to so many kind of dinner situations with my kids, especially when they were younger, you know, where I'm like, why am I doing this why did I take them out to dinner? Or what's wrong with my kids? I feel like there's a kid over there who is sitting, you know, so kindly, you know, what's wrong with me? Why am I not a better parent? What are people thinking? I mean, there's so many things going on as you're just hoping that the kitchen is able to give you the food soon and you can beeline out of there. And that's stressful enough, right? I think we all have had these situations in a restaurant, and we fear that moment of, like, someone coming over and confirming our, you know, kind of least generous interpretation of what was going on. And then that's literally what happened. Your children have ruined my dinner. And then the kicker, you should be ashamed of yourself. If we just zero in on that moment, if it was like a movie and it, you know, we press pause. What was going on for you? What's going on inside your body? What's going on inside your brain, your thoughts, your worries? Tell me a little bit more about that.

Yeah, I think I keep thinking of that part in the Matrix, like, when everything slows down and there's all the zeros and the ones. And like, I mentioned, like, the people pleaser in me just was, like, crushed, you know? Like, I immediately start thinking, like, well, they kind of ruined our dinner too. Like, they didn't ruin it, but it was just. It was a challenging moment for everyone. So I felt ashamed. And this is the nurse in me. I also felt like, what is going on for this person that, like, she's speaking to us that way. And also, especially in regards to my husband, I just wanted to get us out of there with as little confrontation as possible, where his MO Is more to defend. And he did mention to her that she should have some. I think dignity is what he said on the way out, because she was still at the host of Stand talking about the wine. So the last piece that I was thinking about was, like, how is this going to impact my kids? Because we've been so lucky to be part of this community and been working on repairing and apologizing, and we're getting good at it, I think. But I have no idea. I've thought about it a lot and I've talked to them about it afterwards. But that was something else I was thinking about, like, what? How are they gonna feel? I don't want them to feel ashamed of, like, reaching for Christmas ornaments in a restaurant.

You know, I think there's so many levels. There's this narrative about like kids and their behavior and staying in line. And even though I don't buy into these ideas, Ariana, like there's still this image for me of like the family who can go out to dinner with kids who like sit in their chairs nicely and like, you know, order with a please and say thank you and put their napkins on their laps. And unlike my kids eat rice with like a fork, not their hands, you know, that family has like really done something right and like those kids are going to be successful in life and I have done it all wrong. There's also I think another level which is just what was I taught growing up about how proper I needed to be, about how much space I had to like kind of be a kid versus you know, please the people around me by showing off about how compliant I was. And then there's this last level which you just named that I think a lot about how do we repair with our kids for moments that we didn't cause ourselves but they're not going to get a repair for from the person, you know, that they would most directly need it for. So let's start with that first one. What has in general going to dinner been like kind of when you think about going to dinner with your two young kids, just like what, what types of things come up for you?

I think about an older non mom version of myself not understanding perhaps like that what my goal is now is to do the best I can and let these little people be out in society and just do the best I can to keep them occupied. I don't expect them to sit there. I don't expect them to say please and thank you every time. And I see all kinds of different things when I go out and I, my heart goes out to people who are trying to like get their kids to use the chopsticks and say please and say thank you. And I don't know, I think I fall somewhere in the middle of all that at this point.

And like, I think it's just worth establishing, right? Like our kids job really is exploration, right? They explore a lot, right? That's why they put everything in their mouth when they're, you know, one and two because that's the way they can really learn about objects. That's why they crawl all over the place and walk and kind of find things in drawers that they're not supposed to find but do anyway. And that's why they like to move. Like, that's why they like playgrounds, that's why they like to climb on things that's why they like to touch things. That's why they hopefully do see things and rest, are like, oh, what's that?

Right?

They're learning about the world, which is really, really not so conducive with sitting in one place, not wiggling your body, and just staying there. And so I often do think every time we take our kids to some dinner where they have to sit there or some show where they're supposed to, like, sit, you know, in the seat and just watch one thing, you know, it really is at odds with what they're developmentally accomplishing in the other parts of their day, which is learning by doing and learning by touc. Watching and learning by exploring. So just for everyone listening to this who's thinking, like, yeah, it's a disaster. When I go out to dinner with my young kids, there's something really de. Shaming about realizing, okay, well, that's because my kid's job is to move around and explore, and sitting at dinner is the opposite of that. Then another thing is, and I know you probably know this, but I think for me, when I've taken my kids out to dinner, I've underestimated how much I needed to, like, prepare them for, like, what this situation would demand of them. Because, like, I'm just like, yeah, we're just gonna go grab dinner, right? And you know, the times that I have paused and been like, ooh, what happens at a restaurant when you want food? Is it like, oh, I want grilled cheese, and here's my grilled cheese, and just have my kids say, no, it's not like that. Oh, you have to wait. It's so annoying. Like, whenever I've even done that on the car ride with them or.

And this was.

This was one of my best moves. Oh, what if the chicken fingers aren't.

Like the chicken fingers we make in.

Our house and just, like, starting that circuit, you know, like, we've all kind of adapted to restaurants. And I often do forget to do with my kid. And then they're sitting. They're like, why is my food not here?

They're like, I don't like this type.

Of, you know, pasta. You know, I thought it was going to look like the one at home. And sometimes I forget, wait. Like, they just don't have as much.

World knowledge as I do.

And nobody likes to be surprised, right, by things that aren't going the way they expect. Sometimes I reflect after, like, oh, I. I probably could do more to, like.

Set them up not for success.

So that woman doesn't judge you, but.

Just for success in terms of understanding what's about to happen.

And I think we were. If we had taken a few minutes to do that, it really might have had an effect because what our goal was was, like, we don't want to cook. We've all had a long day. Like, let's just eat something. And like you said, like, we're adults, we can handle that. But if I would have taken five minutes to just sit with my husband, like, all right, let's, you know, whatever, and give them a little bit of more information, they do really well with that. And that's also why I mentioned, like, they were sitting on the bench together. Like, they should have been separated. Like, just a little more thoughtfulness from me beforehand would have had a good effect and. And would have, like, felt better for them in their little bodies, because I don't want them to feel bad. Like, they wiggle. Right? Like, they can't sit still. You know, that's what they're supposed to be doing.

Totally. And I think there's a really nice kind of two things are true here as a parent. Like, yeah, like, I'm gonna try to remember those small kind of reminders or anticipations. Right. With my kids, and inevitably there's gonna be plenty of moments I don't do that. We can't do that all the time. And then, yeah, like, things are probably just gonna be a little messier and, you know, a little bit more unruly. It doesn't mean I'm a bad parent. It definitely doesn't mean I, you know, have a bad kid. It means hopefully I get them to bed at a decent time and can sit on the couch and just be like, oh, my God, that was like. That was not what I wanted it to be.

Right?

Oh, my God.

I came and left you a voice note. That's what I. Yeah, perfect.

Well, Zay, it all worked out okay. Ne next thing, I'm just curious as context here and definitely in context in terms of how you ended up responding to this stranger's comment. What were you like when you went out to dinner? What was expected of you? Or did you go out to dinner? Or what would have been like for you if you were wiggling, understandably, as a four or five year old, how would your parents have handled that?

I been thinking about it and I asked my parents about it because I can't remember. Everybody just remembers my brother and I sitting there like angels. And sometimes we would fall asleep with our heads on the table. But, like, that's the only in. I know, in like a happy little spaghetti sleepiness, just.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And look, I think another context that's important versus when we grow up is our kids have, you know, so much stimulation in their life. Right. Even just growing up with screens, even growing up with, like, probably a lot of them have busier schedules than we had.

Right.

So they're at this sport, like you said, they go to school, then they go to ballet. Right. Or Right. They're used to then going to ballet and maybe come home and then maybe they get to watch a show or like, they have something stimulating in their life. And generally sitting at dinner is. Is not very stimulating for a kid. I actually think it's one of the reasons to practice doing that as a family. Just kind of knowing you're inviting in a little bit of a disaster situation because it's good for kids to learn, although the learning takes longer than we want it to. Okay. Sometimes I do have to slow down my body. Sometimes I do have periods in my day where it's not about immediate stimulation. It's about just being part of something that's not so. At the same time, though, those moments are harder for kids these days than they were for us when either the option might have been go out to dinner or just, like, sit on the carpet and, I don't know, like, find a piece of wool to twiddle with our thumbs. Like, that's probably was the option for a lot of us. And we're like, wow, going out to dinner is, like, really fun and exciting.

Right.

There wasn't this, like, screen in our face, or there wasn't these, you know, video games to play, or there wasn't ballet.

And so.

So the gap in what we expected as kids, probably in what our kids expect doesn't, again, doesn't make us bad parents, doesn't make our kids spoiled kids. I think there's just. We have to appreciate that difference, you know, in our kids. Bodies around expectation. Probably again, going back to how helpful it is to say to them, this is probably not going to be your most fun moment of the day. Let's just get ready for that.

I need to say that to them more.

Yeah. I think that's, like, really good to own to kids. And they're like, well, why are we doing it? I say to my kids, I'm like, you know, it's just really important to do things in life that aren't fun all the time. It just kind of helps us develop into, like, a good, solid adult. Like, I have no better explanation than that. It's why I tell my kids sometimes, like, yeah, you have to unload the dishwasher. Well, why do I have to do it? It's not fun. I'm like, yeah, that's why. Because it's not fun, and it's just a task. And we do things sometimes that are not fun. We can make it more fun together. Right?

And same thing at dinner.

Like, we could play a little game, or we could play a what's missing or something like that. But also, let's just name up front, you know?

Yeah. Like, you don't have to, like, going out to dinner.

Cause I don't know if this happens in your house, but I know for some families I've even worked with, then the narrative is you don't appreciate this. Right. Like, I'm taking you out to dinner. I just got you dessert. I'm taking you on vacation. I just bought you this stuffed animal at Disney.

Right.

I'm doing all these things for you. Well, so many of times, the things that we say we're doing for our kids, there's a lot of difficulty to them managing through those things. And then we kind of act out this resentment when probably our kids on some level, are like, yeah, I didn't.

Like, really ask to do this.

Okay, so let's zero in on this moment. So this woman comes to you after what you already experienced is not such an enjoyable dinner, and she just, you know, goes for the jugular.

Right?

Both like, you ruined my dinner. And it's just a line. It's so aggressive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

It's really aggressive.

And you're kind of. Your anxiety acts up, like, yeah, I.

Mean, she just, like, served me a fresh plate of shame. And, like, we didn't ask for it. We didn't know it was coming. Like, yeah. But then when it happened, I sort of felt like, oh, this was coming, wasn't it? Like, it was just sort of looming over all the, you know, drama of the night and anxiety that I still feel it, like, talking to you. I feel it when I was thinking about talking to you. I feel it if it just popped into my head. But I think I'm able to sit with it in a way. Like, just a previous part of me wouldn't have been able to show up like this and talk about it like this.

Yeah, well, look, I don't even know if I've said this yet. First of all, I'm sorry that happened. That just stinks. Like, flat out, that stinks. Stinks like Nobody, nobody wants that to happen. And also nobody, nobody handles that situation that well. Like because it's so aggressive. And our body often has learned to freeze in those moments. It sounds like your husband a little more had like fight or flight activate and you had a little bit more of this freeze, which is a shame response. Right. And one of the interesting things about any of us who have that freeze response is I think it gets layered with additional shame after, where we then say the next day, like, why didn't.

I even say anything? Like, what's wrong with me?

I'm sure I went there.

Right.

I think understanding that's really important that none of us change through shame. Shaming ourselves is actually activating this animal defense freeze state.

Even being able to say hi after.

To the shame so it doesn't layer on is really important. Very few people react in a way that they're really proud of holistically after when they're met with such aggression. And I probably learned when I heard offensive comments to kind of pause. I must have learned that that was, you know, the best of all possible reactions. And I need to appreciate that in my history before my body's able to move forward in a different way.

That's so helpful. I think, I think I knew that on some level, but you just like spelling it out like that, like it was. That's a coping skill and like a survival skill. Right. Like, just freeze. Like, this is aggressive. Just breathe and we don't have to fix it or do anything. Like just stay safe, you know? I love that. So helpful.

You said something really powerful. It's like, this woman served you this plate of shame. And I don't know about you, but.

I have an image of like a.

Waiter or waitress, like, bringing me this plate. And like, yeah. What do we say to ourselves when people say things that in some way we have this vulnerability to take in, but it's like we're fighting our history. We're like, no, I. I know I don't have to be ashamed of myself. I know kids develop and my kids are just young. But also there's this voice of like.

She'S right, she's right.

Like, you haven't done it right. And we're like warring with ourselves.

I had that conversation in my head.

Yeah. So maybe we'll come up with something together. We'll go, step one, step two. And there's no right answer. So we'll just co create it. So for me, step one is putting my feet on the ground and like my hand on my heart and just taking in a breath that has a longer out breath than in breath, which is, like, such a powerful trick to know about our body. Like, you fool your body into activating the parasympathetic nervous system. So it's a way of your body saying, like, whoa, wait, this isn't an emergency, right? Because like, so saying, like, Every time I do it, even now, it's like, wow, I feel calmer. So that's step one. What might step two be? After you kind of have a little bit of groundedness, what might you say to yourself to really give a little bit more distance between this person's comment and your truth?

I just thought of bringing it back to the platter of shame. I just know that, like, this is to make it an object, like a ball someone's trying to throw to you. And I do not have to catch this ball. Like. Like, I see you. I hear you. I'm doing my deep breathing and I'm. You can take your platter somewhere else. We'll send it into the universe. Nobody. Something like that.

Yeah. And. And for everyone listening, what you just did, I don't even know if you noticed you did it, but I saw it on video, and I think about this all the time with my kids when they say stuff I don't really want to absorb. It's like, you literally moved out of the way. I do this all the time, especially when I'm trying to reprocess something. Like, I literally imagine the shame platter coming my way. Or maybe it is a ball being thrown at me, and I'm not going to spend my energy swatting it away, because that's also energy. But I don't have to stay there and have it enter me. And just this act of. And for everyone listening, I'm literally moving my body as if I'm, like, moving away from a ball that's thrown at me, like, ooh. And I just, like, I always look at it. Like, I'm like, I'm just watching it pass me. There it is.

Absolutely.

Okay, so that's step two. Step one is take a deep breath. Step two, like, really imagine this thing. Whoever's serving it to you, notice that it's coming your way and really move out of the way. And then I think some simple words, like, it sounds so obvious, but we need to hear it. What other people say about me isn't necessarily true. Or that person thinks I should be ashamed of myself. I know I'm a good parent whose kids were a little bit rowdy at dinner. You know, or like you said, sometimes it is helpful to gain distance to say, wow, I was just like a pawn in that person's chessboard. I often think, like, I must have been an actor in that person's play. That person must have had parents who were so harsh to them and they were just reliving something from their past. This had nothing to do with me. And then I want to, I want to talk, Ariana, about what you mentioned before, which is how do we repair with our kids for moments that happen that they pick up on and that don't feel good and they're not going to get that repair for. So we have to give ourselves, I think just again, that compassion and understanding of our body of I might not do that right away. I. My body needs time to unfreeze. I need to get to that place again where I'm like, wait, I'm safe, I'm breathing. This is not a me thing. I'm watching this kind of shame pass by. So tell me what you have said to your kids. And again, there's no right way. Or if you're like, yeah, I haven't, I don't know. I don't know exactly what to say. I'm happy to brainstorm together.

I talked to my older daughter about it in a quieter moment before bedtime that night. And I just asked her how it made her feel and she said it made me feel sad and took all my energy and work that I've done just to not try and fix that or comfort. And I just said it made me feel sad too. And I told her that that person was having a hard time and that we are good and, you know, we're okay and you're safe. And I don't remember exactly, but she then like moved on and asked, like, what book are we reading tonight? But I knew that it was like in there, you know, And I think I mentioned something similar to my younger daughter, but she didn't give me the feedback. But I did just sort of try and say some of those words just to try and make space in her brain to know that like something happened, it didn't feel good and we're okay.

I think you crushed it. I really mean, I think you totally crushed it. Right? And I think this is something, whether it's a stranger at a restaurant or sometimes it's a grandparent, or sometimes for some people it's their co parent where repairing for someone who can't do the repair is really centering our kid's experience. It's like Wait, my kid noticed something, My kid absorbed something that didn't feel good. And that moment where they felt kind of scared or confused or alone and it doesn't really matter at this point who quote put that moment there. I can help my child not live with this kind of free floating confusion and anxiety. And that's really what talking about these things does. So I think you did an amazing job. I think another thing I say a lot to my kids is like you noticed blank, right? You noticed that that woman said these really harsh words about your behavior at the restaurant. And then I don't know why, maybe I do, but I'm obsessed with this phrase. It's just like you are right to notice that. I feel like it's saying like, yeah, that really happened. That thing that you were putting together, you perceive that correctly? I think I just feel like so many adults thing they struggle with most is self trust. Like do I really feel the things I feel? Did I pick up on something or am I making a big deal out of nothing? And I think generation of kids who are raised with like, you were right to notice that. It just feels so heartening. So I try to say that a lot to my kids. And again we could say that if we have a co parent who yells at our kid and really struggles to repair, hey, you know, you noticed mom, you noticed, dad you know, yelled at you like that happened. You were right to notice that and I'm sure that registered for you and felt scary. And I'm not even throwing anyone under the bus. I'm just saying centering my kids confusion or threat or fear and letting them know they're not alone and that's what they need. You know, like you said, more than fixing it is just letting them know that they perceive something accurately and that they were allowed to have a feeling about it.

I love like just the objectivity of that and like there's not blame anywhere. But just like I see you in this moment that feels bad or whatever it feels like, I'm going to definitely use that phrase more.

Look, and I can say to you, you were right to notice something that was really messed up and really hurtful and triggering and you seem to have handled that in such a powerful, beautiful, growth producing way for everyone.

So.

And I'm really glad you shared this with us. I know so many of us have been there and what's amazing is I think the next time anyone here right now is there, they're going to be a little bit more prepared to manage that situation and manage the way they feel after. So thank you.

Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com podcast. You could also write me@podcastoodinside.com parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's totally game changing. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jessie Baker and Eric Newsome at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhey, Julia Natt and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Ashley Valenzuela and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves. Even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good Inside.